ask_use24 misstree why so many pentacles in jewelry? association? 030914 ... missgtee /me has been drinking spirtus, a polish grina andolgohol, which nake everclear look liek vodka prsfdon typos 030914 ... lc All kinds of corn! 030914 ... User24 two pentacles, two reasons: firstly, I was briefly a satanist, and although I can now look back and identify it as a wrong turn, it introduced me to mysticism (sp?) and the other worlds, at a time when my own was falling apart, I like to reflect on it as a personal symbol of strength and power, and as a reminder of my past (ask more if you want, I talk freely) secondly, I now consider myself a pagan in spirit, if not in practice; I like to take days off around samhain and beltaine, and feel that it is very important to be attuned to nature's force and immense wisdom. 030914 ... User24 for those wondering if my name is really 'use24', see also: ask_user24 030916 ... misstree which was the original typo that made me spew the stream of them in apology. polish grain alcohol is a dangerous thing, folks. i am coming back to this, i've just been stalling in writing anything that requries me to use my brain until i get more than 4 1/2 hours of sleep. may be a bit yet. 030916 ... misstree likes to poke at brains with pointy stick so, as i've mentioned elsewhere, i know next to nothing about satanism; care to give a vague outline? (wish i could be more specific, but this is me and sleep dep going to the mat, and one of us ain't walkin' away) 030916 ... User24 to be honest, I can't really tell you, for if I did, I would be killed. oh, ok then. (from http://www.coscentral.com) The Nine Satanic Statements I Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! II Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! III Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit! IV Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! V Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! VI Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires! VII Satan represents man as just another animal; sometimes better, more often worse than those who walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development," has become the most vicious animal of all! VIII Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification! IX Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years! ------- as you can probally already tell, lavey was a little bit up his own arse (sorry, mate, but it's true, and you know it (he's dead)) again, copied from above website: The Nine Satanic Sins 1) Stupidity--The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid. 2) Pretentiousness--Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not. 3) Solipsism--can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses, and sensibilities onto someone else who is probably far less attuned that you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy, and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do onto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian viewpoint) we are from that point. 4) Self-Deceit--It's in the Nine Satanic Statement but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered is when it is fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit! 5) Herd Conformity--That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform to a person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of many. 6) Lack of Perspective--Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, everyday. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit the things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. So not be swayed herd constraints--know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world. 7) Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxy's--Be aware that this one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something as "new" and "different", when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society. 8) Counterproductive Pride--The first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bath water. The rule of Satanism is if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it 9) Lack of Aesthetics--This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. It is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off it most of the tome so it is discouraged in a consumer society, but is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing--it's what is. Aesthetics is a highly personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied. -------- there is more, but you can check out the site. I didn't fully believe in it all, but there are some good morals there, not good morals for a perfect world, but good morals for the detestable world we are unfotunate enough to live in today; sometimes, in fact, most of the time, it is right to be selfish, in this world, turning the other cheek gets you two black eyes and a lasting reputation for being weak. as for devil-worship, I wouldn't know about that, lavey's satanism wasn't really anything to do with the forces of evil, it was more a backlash against the church and attitudes of the time (1960s) if you want dark beasties, better check out Crowley. satanic magic and worship is all about harnessing the power within you, the fact that you do not need a deity or angel to help you is it's raison d'etre, it serves itself, making few, and carefully chosen, exceptions. (you can see why it appealed at a time when I was failing at school, and was constantly being told I had so much potential that I'm wasting yada yada) :) 030916 ... misstree okay, now i know which camp the satanists i haven't patted on the head and sent off with a cookie were coming from... i agree, a lot of good stuff there, a lot of threads i see among many of the miscellaneous religions these days--bits of objectivism here, chaos magic there, and most have the "you are only a sheep if you let yourself, be, so for (insert particulars here)'s sake, don't let yourself be. i bit more mercenary than i try to be, but that's the stinky hippy for you. pride, nonconformity, and indulgence. hmm. good thing eris has me by the balls. (kidding! kidding! ow! quit slapping me, Mom!) so, where did you evolve from there? you mentioned miscellaneous paganism as well--what specific influences did you ride between there and here? 030916 ... User24 funny you should mention chaos magic, actually.. I never had any results with satanic magic, so from there (probally via a few 'underground' websites that dealt with everything I loved; hacking, viri, drugs, bombs and extreme religion) I found my way to Peter Carroll, chaos magic, with a bit of quantum physics thrown in for fun [ever read Liber Kaos? ;)] I guess I needed more framework, so, while I understood that my workings only worked becuase of the power within me, I found something more with Chaos, I could see it around me, I could watch strange attractors with a sense of glee; that I actually knew (the basics of) how they worked, from there, I've taken a step down, I now would describe myself as having everything from Satanism to muster up against my adversaries, the pure hate, blind anger, and sheer destructiveness (you can get carried away with the weight of power, knowing that it doesn't matter what the Gods think of you, they only exist in your mind yada yada) I have the logical viewpoint of chaotic cause and effect, that allows me to deal with things in a nice and simple way; X happened because it was inevitable, the world was just right, at that moment in time, and that's why X happened (you can get carried away with the inevitability of the situtation; it doesn't matter what I do if it's all set out before me, right?) I have wisdom of philosophy and buddha behind me, recieving all knowledge gratefully, and discerning true from lies, and finally, I have Paganism, keeping me calm and in tune with the only truth; that trees will grow, and cliffs will crumble. 030916 ... misstree very nice. i don't come across enough people these days who do a thorough patch job, taking the pieces from things that they're good for. example, i wouldn't try to dictate my morality with chaosmagic--it would take a lot of work just to dig out the proper structures, i think, and then you could go twenty different ways with it. i'm personally a blend of discordian, chaote, and bokononist, with some epicurianism and optimism frosted on top. unfortunately haven't read liber kaos, the local bookstore closed down before i could snag it; first formal introduction was liber null/psychonaut, followed by quantum psychology by RAW (also first exposure to him, between that and the rest of life my brain was *seriously* bent). quantum psychology was/is an incredible study on the relationship of the principles of quantum physics to mental workings to perception & its relation to "reality"--higly recommended, if you haven't yet read it. nod, i distinctly like the cause-effect directness of chaosmagic (apologies for continually slurring the two words, it's a side effect of me email addie), it's a very good structure to hang the rest of the useful bits off of, keeps the foma from melting in the sun. i've also had a very interesting time using it as a comparison point for a lot of the other mysicisms, especially those with purposeful workings (prayer, rituals, etc.)--it's the things in common that help define the truer whole, imho. as far as getting carried away with the weight of power... yeah. that's one of the lessons that i learned early and hard, that there is always a bigger fish in the ocean, that there are things that you are just not equipped to fuck with. okay, now 2 questions; how do you think this blend shapes how you approach every day life, and what's your take on what happens after we die? 030916 ... User24 I just have to say that I've never read anything that corresponds so perfectly with my own beliefs as your reply. k, answering this one first because it's easier: what's your take on what happens after we die? very simple, I die and get buried in a degradeable coffin type thing, my body and it's energy are absorbed, back into the earth, thereby, re-incarnating every part of me, and being enviro-friendly, and letting all the parts of the earth that I've borrowed for my short stay here, get back home. 030916 ... User24 how do you think this blend shapes how you approach every day life? I think it makes me a better person, I can use any of the skills I've learnt from one religion/belief set or another to help me from day to day, in any number of situations. Slightly off topic: I have a positive outlook, there's always a little doubt, but overall, I feel like I'm moving upwards, I hope I am (see, there's that doubt again!), my beliefs are strong and true, I know that, they hold me together sometimes. --- I, haven't read either of those, however, I know a shop where I can definately get Liber Null, and probally the other, too, so I will try to get hold of them. yeah, chaos magic does make a very good base, your conscious needs the structures of myths and magic, and your subconscious needs the logic and proof of the quantum psychology. with both fulfilled, you are given a great standing point that is both beautiful and functional. and it allows, in fact requires, your own adaptations. agree very much on the lowest common denominator bit, couldn't have said it better meself. :) ask more! ask more! 030916 ... misstrees brain is throbbing in a happy way *grin* be my pleasure; i agree that we have very similar approaches so far, which makes me even more curious to find the differences, and to hear things coming out of a different brain with different words. appears our only difference in opinoin of the afterlife is that i plan on being a crazy old lady with lots of cats, and being at least partially eaten by said cats, because it would amuse me to live on in such a manner in they and their kittens and such. also, any person who requests such within 1 year of my death is to recieve a small portion of my ashes, for them to do with as they deem fit. i'm also occasionally astounded at how much each piece of patchwork keeps to itself--it seems intuitive that, if you have a bunch of different belief systems operating in one brain, they would occasionally conflict, but i rarely see that happen. at least, it hasn't happened since i gave up on both agnositcism and objectivism (the cult of ayn_rand). it may be the flexibility of the frameworks, combined with a good amount of examination of any belief before it's really integrated. conflicts, to me, tell me something is Wrong, and needs to be fixed. don't trip over the carpet trying to get liber null, it's definitely a good read, and was wonderful for an introduction, but it's got a lot more, hrm, almost the ritual end of things, as much as chaos magic could have one; it goes into the different ways of achieving trances and what they're good for, different ritual activities that can be used to guide workings, the whywhathows of servitors (and quite a few cautions), and goes off about the wheel of desire and Kia and other concepts not neccesary to really grasp the whole. but interesting. for quantum psychology, though, push grannies in front of cars if they're in your way. i think it might almost be the other way around, for me, with which part of my brain needs which; it's the conscious part that listened to too many atheists growing up, that's constantly saying, that's not supposed to happen. it needs a good platform to grip white-knuckled when things get Weird, because i still look at everything with a dose of skepticism. the theories of chaos magic are that platform. on the other hand, myths and faity tales and metaphors are the stew of the subconscious, it's how it speaks to the world; when i say hail eris i'm not so much hailing some old greek crone, but lifting a smile up to the universe in all its splendor, and expressing happiness that it plays well with others like me. dangit, i can't even explain it well without lapsing into metaphor. :P dangit, two or three really good questions came to mind, but i was so busy babbling that i forgot what they were. *SIGH* oh yeah, the one that i was originally intending to write; what's your take on spirits? i lump into this category everything from ghosts to dieties to servitors (created spirits, um, kind of) to totems to energies in objects and places. i'll go smoke a cig and see if i can remember the others. :D 030916 ... User24 yeah, the inner conflicts of mixed morals, it doesn't happen a lot, probally because of the dynamic nature of my system, I'll add some bits on here and there (I'm just starting to beleive in the house elves who hide things from me) so because the system is in a constant state of flux, when a conflict does arise, I shift my weightings on the conflicting arguments, and decide based on that, I suppose there's an inner moral guiding it all (which I feel is my Pagan side, connecting to a deeper entity, etc) Liber Kaos sounds quite similar to Liber Null & Psychonaut, a bit top heavy on rituals, as I remember. I'm not too sure what I think of spirits, I was having this debate not too long ago, The chaote in me would say that if you create it in your mind, it is true, but I'm never too keen on accepting that as a full answer unless the whole world is just in my mind ( - not impossible) I will never reject an argument entirely; as Einstein said, a hundred experiments could not prove I'm right, one experiment could prove me wrong, ie, I've lived for 20 years without seeing a ghost, that does not prove they don't exist, if I see one tomorrow, that one occurance has proved they do. 030916 ... User24 as for other supernatural things; aura's, crystal healing, reiki, whatever, I believe in most things by default, and wait to be dis-proved (I've never stopped believing in something yet) 030916 ... User24 going to sleep, see you tomorrow :) 030916 ... misstree kay, back from the club and kinda drunk, forgive the pletohora of typos i anticipate. so, you've never had an experience with what you could consider another consciousness, or another entity? i'll withold stories of my own unil i probe a little deeper, as this is one fot he things that kicked my ass out of agnosticism,, and i don't expect you to be swayed by my anecdotes any more than i would be swayed by something i hadn't seen/felt/grokked wiht my own being. okay, two questions in this, i think, take you there is a wideheld belief in chaosmagic that in order for a Will to be accomplished, one must release the desire. that the desire itself, when held by the conscious mind, will thwart the kia's actions because of fear of success. do you believe this to be true? why? second part of the question... it is not easy or intuitive to, when one wants something to happen, put that thought out of mind. often leads to obsession, which is imho giving your brain something to gnaw on until all you have are spit-covered bits and dog puke. unless you can draw something from it, like epicurean experience, or writing. *sigh* anyhow, so release of desire is not an easy thing; do you have any particular preference/stance for how it is best accomplished? and, for that matter, okay, this'll take a second... don't remember, might ahve been quantum psych, but the subject of meta-thoughts came up... thinking about thoughts... in theory, there are an infinite number of meta-thouhts, thinking of thinking of thoughts and so on... for the suspension of disbelief often associated with both release of desire, but release of doubt, meta-thinking is often involved, but it gets into some conflict when you're always trying to use the next level of thinking about thought to nullify doubt... what are your thoughts on the difficulties involving willfull suspension of disbelief, whether or not you think it neccesary? 'kay. think i'm done, though don't be surprised if i have one more post before i pass out, something i forgot. again, apologies for any typos; been fascinated by watching my fingers on keyboard, they don't swim as bad as the monito. :P good night, good night, be always kind and true, and failing that, be silent. 030917 ... User24 I have experienced the supernatural a few times, some bad, most good, I think that anything can, and probally does happen as usual, I'm answering backwards (in fact, haphazardly); I've always had trouble with forgetting the object of desire, one way I've done it in the past is to write sheets and sheets of sigils, some silly random things mixed in with a few expressing my true desires, I then leave them for a week so as to forget which sigil is which, and then meditate on them over a period of days, it's bit of a compromise, but it's worked in the past. (one side effect is that all your A4 sheets of paper have weird symbols scrawled over them) I think the important moral behind forgetting the object of desire is that you should never get hooked on fancies, whether it is needed for success or not is a tricky question, the maxim "nothing is true, everything is permitted" is useful here, remember that chaos is itself a system that only works because it does. I know this is ask_use(r)24, but can I slip one in? What sort of rituals, etc do you use? I've never felt comfortable with the whole robes and goblets stuff, I prefer a more casual approach, if I feel like it, I'll light a candle or some incense, I may even pray to some God or Goddess (or the hole bunch) but it's never in a "O Pan, thou art strong as the day itself" kind of way, it's more honest and personal, eg "Hey, Pan, I'm asking you to help me with xxxx, I don't know if you're the right guy to talk to, but..." (etc) On the subject of thoughts, have you seen that article 'get with the meta program' on my website? very interesting.. I have a theory on thoughts, and how they work, your conscious mind needs to know something (eg, who sang 'bright eyes') as soon as you begin to wonder this, your subconscious sends messages out to little parts of your brain that are instructed to wonder about this, also. Then, the answers come back to your subconscious, which reasons upon which is more likely to be true, hence, you suddenly come across the answer, 2 weeks later, when you've forgotten you wanted to know, because one of the little parts of your brain has just found it, and has been looking all this time. mm.. that was a convoluted way of saying it... 030917 ... misstree hmm... i like that idea for releasing desire... what i might actually do is charge a sigil, then sneak it onto a page with a bunch of other symbols, then take those and doodle all over my arm in silver sharpie, so that the scattering is constantly visible, and also something to blank my mind on when it goes to gnaw on things. this is one of the biggest problems for me, because usually i'm flighty enough that it's just a matter of distraction, but i'm wrestling with a monster right now. it will work out in the end, that's all i know. :P and i defintely agree that the moral not to get hooked on fancies is the important bit. anyhow... rituals, well, when i actually do a full-on ritual, it usually involves a couple of the same objects every time (a certain plaster skull, a tray i burn things on, a box that i put used components in), lighting some candles on an altar-like space to help focus, then some mediation, and conversations with whatever i happen to talk to; if i need information, i talk to the skull; if i'm trying to settle major changes in my life, i talk to Big Momma. if i need answers, i've found that busting out the tarot deck works well. i usually just set up things that i think might be helpful and then go with the flow; pretty informal, but trying to keep a quiet focus. when i'm doing works outside of ritual, it's usually when i personally am full of playfulness and some other emotion, be it anger, lust, joy, whatever. then i do visualizations (though it tends to be more tactile experiences, but i don't think tactilizatons is a word :P ), craft what i think the proper representation of what my goal is, and release. one example is a little birdie i've sent off to tell people that they should make their way to the place i was at--it was an energy ball thought-formed until i could "feel" wings shifting under my hands. hopefully there's an answer in there somewhere. :) post your site again, i saw the fractals part but i didn't see the other, it prolly slipped my mind since i don't venture outside blather at work. in other words, no, i haven't seen that article, but it sounds really interesting. one other book that speaks about meta-thoughts and mental mapping is something like "godel, escher and bach, the golden braid" or something... it's got these weird cs lewis meets greek philosophy diagolgues, and from just flipping open randomly on occasion it flips all over patterning and meta thoughts and even stranger and harder to summarize schtuff. no more questions right at the moment, let me wake up for a while and i'll think of some. :) 030917 ... User24 :) http://cgi.project2501.plus.com/ click user24, then 'theft' --- I should really do some workings some time, I haven't for ages, though visualisation is great fun, whereever you are right now (and this applies to anyone reading) pretend you are sitting /standing / whatever next to you, it's quite easy, just shift your perspective, pretend that you're looking where you are looking, just a little to the left. ok, now you're comfortable with that, let the 'fake' you turn and look at yourself, you should have an image you you, sideways, picture it, keep focus, now hold that thought, and picture the room around you when that 90 degree perspective, fancy a walk around? try zooming in and out, though walls, inside other people, high above your town, but be careful, there's a difference between visualisation and imagination, make sure the images in your head are as accurate as they can be, and don't just look, feel, feel the wind on your face as, in your room, your ghost steps outside into the street, look at the people, wander about, and have fun. most importantly, remember to come back, and remember that you are in control of it, if something's happening that you don't like, bend the rules a little. 030917 ... misstree yum! a very interesting exercise... and also one that helps distract the brain, as it requires you to stop babbling at yourself. :) i'll check out the site when i get home, i get nervous enough with just a bitty blue window. 030917 ... User24 for me, (though I'm out of practice) it take a lot of concentration, it's something fun to do while on the bus to work, as well! 030917 ... imposter OK, User -- I have a question for you as a Brit. I was recently in London, and you crazy British seem to put vegetables (what you call 'salad') on everything! A meatball sandwhich with lettuce, tomatoes, and corn?! Corn on pizza! Corn on everything! What is with the corn??? Besides that, I LOVED the food there -- bangers 'n' mash, chicken and leek pie, mmm -- those were my favourite 'authentic' British foods. Wasn't so crazy about the fish 'n' chips, but the again. I don't so much like fish. The spotted dick was good too, just a strange name. And I absolutely loved Guinness. Oh, and also -- does the no-selling-alcohol-after-11 thing apply everywhere in England or just in London itself? You've got a great country going on over there, friend. 030917 ... misstree excellent excellence with the article. yep, same school of thought (and even some terms) as quantum psychology. remind me to poke at you about metaprogramming and consciously changing preferences sometime when i have a few minutes, and maybe mumble something about how philosophies affect how magic is approached, w/ example of hedonism--tactile & energy work preferred. just making notes to myself. look! it's elvis! *runs off into the after-work world* 030917 ... User24 re metaprogramming; yeah, I thought so, too, I only discovered the article a few months ago, so I haven't got around to doing anything with it, i don't have much spare time, but look forward to setting some aside.. I could talk all day on how philosophies affect how magic is approached, but I'd need to know one thing; approached as in, how it is percieved by the masses, or how one should approach it? and as for hedonism, it depends what you mean by hedonism, the pursuit of pleasure, or the acknowledgement that all our actions are dictated by pleasure (but can be changed), there's a big difference. and frankly, I don't know what you're talking about re tactile & energy work, sorry, that sounds terribly rude, doesn't it? didn't mean it, I'm just a little abrupt sometimes (why beat_around_the_bush? (chances of that being a blathe...20%?)) explain more (or, as you -were- just taking notes, I'll let you off if you explain something else if you prefer..) :) 030917 ... misstree i will explain more in due time, dahlink. confusion is what you get for reading what i wrote on the ask_you blathe before i was done procrastinating. off to go get drunk. ta! 030917 ... User24 imposter, yeah, no alchohol after 11, except in some clubs, who can have their license extended to 2am. the food is ok, but a little bland, I prefer italian. misstree: no probs, have fun :) 030918 ... oldephebe this is a pretty cool blathe page, i'm enjoying you and misstree's scintillating discourses, totally free flow and informal - not trying to inculcate or declaim or preach or anything - just open sharing..it's fun to see sharp minds sharing with one another.. 030918 ... oldephebe wait..it's fun? how lame was that? um..it's blah always intriguing to passively observe keenly honed minds simply sharing..blech..at tleast i didn't say "fun" again.. 030918 ... oldephebe wait..it's fun? how lame was that? um..it's blah always intriguing to passively observe keenly honed minds simply sharing..blech..at tleast i didn't say "fun" again.. 030918 ... oldephebe wait..it's fun? how lame was that? um..it's blah always intriguing to passively observe keenly honed minds simply sharing..blech..at tleast i didn't say "fun" again.. 030918 ... relentless inner critic!! posting three times now THAT was lame!! 030918 ... User24 mm.. fun is a great word, it is as simple as what it represents. 030918 ... misstree hmm... i'd like to hear your thoughts on both, with the how philosophies affect magic. very different thing, perception by the masses or a single person's approach. proceed. (user24 versus next question. FIGHT! sorry. been playing oldsk00l fighting games as late.) the reason i was mumbling to myself about tactile sensation and energy work was, as a narrow example, i tend to be a very tactile person with hedonistic tendencies (defined loosely as the belief that, ya, it pretty much boils down to pursuit of pleasure, that that's the core... whether or not this can be changed, well it really depends on how you believe the breakdown goes, why it occurs, and how you would define deviation from this tendency... there should be a question mark in there somewhere, but there's not and you have to answer it anyway so nyah. :P ), and thus i find myself using tactile visualizations, if you will, more often than it seems to my limited experience people use visual visualizations (ahem) or other things. to me, it just comes very naturally, and whether or not they are basically self-induced hallucinations, i actually think the ease in inducing said hallucination is a distinct benefit. apologies, brain is sub-par today. but i think i buried a question or two in there. indeed, fun is appropriate. simple, enjoyable, without undue weight, brain games on the big playground. i agree to fun. :) 030918 ... minnesota_chris Piston Hurricane kicks my butt. If not him, ya got Bald Bull waiting in the wings 030918 ... User24 anyone remember 'exploding fist' ZX Spectrum 48k.. 030918 ... User24 sorry, mistree, I'm taking ages over this reply, can't seem to focus on it.. 030918 ... misstree that's quite alright, take your time. don't have much focus in me today, either. 030918 ... User24 well, as far as the masses go.. yeah, they don't really -have- a philosophy, at least not consciously (if that offends anyone; you obviously don't have the same 'masses' that I live next door to, and I apologise) their morals seem to be closed minded and arrogant, though I do misjudge a lot of people, perhaps that's just their herd mentality, and personally they're a lot different, in general though, people are quite accepting of others' beliefs, though there are marked and severe exceptions. In terms of how personal philosophies affect the effectiveness of a working, that's a hard one, as stated earlier, I've not got a huge amount of experience; I accept, know, and believe it, but have little need to apply it; let fate take it's course, with the knowledge that I can take control if needed. Hence, the following is pure conjecture.. it could be that people can apply a wall of protection, both by conscious effort and by a kind of subliminal process, built by their strong will? on the other hand, you could say that because of the way magic works, because you yourself, and the world in general, have forgotten the object of desire, the recipient of the magic has no warning, and therefore no line of defence? And finally (for this bit) how does a person's philosophies affect the efficiency of their own working? Personally, as stated, my philosophies and beliefs hang together quite well, as you say, if there's a conflict, something's obviously wrong, and while some people can settle for the closest match, or any kind of match, I strive for the absolute truth (*), as, I think, do you, any other attitude seems wasteful. (* - coupled with the knowledge that nothing's -that- important, I'm happy to live with some minor discrepancies, they give me something interesting to think about..) I hope that answers some questions, or even better provides more.. On to visualisation, Visualisation I feel is key to the whole process, you are imposing your will upon your subconscious, and letting it do it's work while the world sleeps. Of course, you know all this, so swiftly on to tactile visualisation; agreed, most people use visual, and less use emotive or tactile, as you'll see from the excercise in OOBE's (Out Of Body Experience(s)) above, I tend to take visual first to start easy, and then when I'm comfortable with that, move in feeling things, etc, an interesting one is emotive visualisation, which, basically, is true acting; capture the emotion of someone perfectly and you have complete control, you can role play, yourself v another person, until your actions get the right re-action, then simply copy the right actions in real life. oh, and I think that visualisation, in all forms is a self-induced, but more importantly self-controlled hallucination, which could go part way to explaining how the subconscious is so easily fooled; as the images/feelings/visualisations feel real, the subconscious is more happy to accept them, than a conscious want or need, which it has learnt to ignore? 030918 ... User24 ok, maybe it was just because it was damn long that it took ages.. hmm... I'll let you wade through that at your leisure. 030918 ... misstree i've got some more questions and comments brewing, *but*, i'm theoretically leaving to go play in the woods all weekend tomorrow afternoon, and i don't have anything packed, and i have to saw a piece of pvc in half and do some repairs on garb and run errands and just generally freak out and then not get to be drunk all weekend (least, not drunk enough to be apparent). *huff puff* so you might have to wait until sunday or monday. :P or i might think of something if my mind needs a break from freakingoutdom and wants to drop into coherent thought for a few minutes. either way, that is obviously not now. and don't you ever dare apologize to me for long posts. in case you haven't noticed, i love to ramble. 030918 ... User24 [grin] I just didn't realise how much I'd written :) no problem, I've got to go to a wedding on saterday, and over to my parents on sunday, so I probally wouldn't get round to a reply till monday anyway (it'll give some time to mull over what we've said, anyhow) have fun, speak later :) 030919 ... blah-ze how do i stop procrastinating, and do some study? also: why is it that i am completely incapable of falling asleep, even though i have given up my 12 cup a day coffee habit? please, pontify at leisure. ignore if you feel like. 030919 ... User24 ah.. I don't honestly know.. if I have any insights later, I'll post them, but until then.. sorry! 030919 ... User24 not wanting to rush you or anything, but I did enjoy our brief discourse. any more, Ms Tree? 030924 ... misstree doesnt like thinking with a hangover drat. yes, most likely tomorrow i will continue feasting on your brain... what with a full weekend and then a strange tuesday and all that pot smoking and whatnot, it had slipped my mind (though this as been enjoyable indeed). but today, it's all i can do to stay conscious. so tomorrow. yep. 030924 ... User24 *beams* as said, no rush, just wanted to know whether you were planning a response or not.. mm.. pot.. good idea.. :D 030924 ... misstree okay, going back to your post on 9/18 and commenting from there, because i don't want to work. okay, philosophy of the masses... the cynical part of me wants to agree with the close-minded herd mentality, but i think that, especially as far as spiritual/religious matters go, people in general are more open-minded than most give them credit for... it's the belligerently close-minded ones that make all the noise... i think that most people realize that it's a very personal thing, and allow for variation without placing too much personal judgement on it. of course, this is also coming from the perspective of an "innocuous weirdo," so i get viewed more as a curiosity than an actual threat. personal philosophy; agreed, that a wall of protection can be applied, built by will; i don't think that forgetting on the part of the sender makes the wall any less effective, though it may make the sending more effective. the most that it might do is fail to provide a line of retaliation from the sent to the sender, kind of like masking your ip. and as far as how one should approach magic, i kind of agree, for the most part i just let the universe do what it will and only nudge when neccesary, but that's just as much from the knowledge that nudges don't always make things go the direction that you were intending. got a good taste of that just recently; won't elaborate more than warning anyone against using a rat/possum thing as a servitor. i also, however, think that just by simply existing, each person is applying some amount of will, and for someone whose will is honed and directed, each breath is a minor magical work... that's part of why i'm so belligerent about my belief that the universe dances rather than stumbles... i think that there is a distinct range of gravity that works should be taken with... not everything should be a major ritual, carefully considered, but mistakes are easily made, and i've noticed that the people who actually know the most also tend to be rather modest with using it, because at some point or other everyone finds out that there are bigger fish than you out there, and even if you don't find one you can still fuck yourself up pretty bad if you're not careful. i think i was trying to go somewhere else with that question, too, but i have no idea what it was. :P interesting point about most people being sight-based with visualizations... it's something i've been dwelling on, and about the only answer i have for myself is "well, i'm weird"... it may be an extension of how i was introduced to things, with energy balls and auras more felt than seen... always been really shitty at seeing energy, though i can feel/"smell" things with relative ease... which brings up an interesting question, what's your take on auras, what they indicate, how they're percieved, and how much those perceptions are tied in with just subconscious clues to a person's character or mind state? ...the emotive visualisation is an interesting concept, but i'm not sure if i'm grasping it quite... are you speaking of something akin to the little conversations people carry on in their head on occasion, like how you're going to answer question x at job interview? it keeps bumping up in my head to live action roleplaying (vampire larp is the most common), and the act of utterly immersing yourself in a foreign mode of thought, moreso than tabletop because there is very little narrative, and you are basically doing *everything*, including actions, speech patterns, facial expressions, and of course reactions, as your character would... yeah, clarify a bit, if you would be oh so kind. :) interesting insights with the rest of visualization (tactilization, dangit!), and i wonder if castaneda wouldn't have something to say about its similarity to dream-states. unfortunately, i know very little about castaneda, and with the exception of one VERY strange occurance (see: questing_deep_into_the_grey_caves) and a few visits from a friend who once taught me how to fly, i'm pretty weak in the dreaming department. and another instance that i might relate on the grey caves blathe later, involving a halloween decoration named Nobody. so, there's another thing to poke at you with, dreams, dreams in general, dreams in specific, why they happen, what they're good for, what they can do to us and for us, how to work with them, all that stuff. hey! you never pontificimacted upon hedonism. i demand a ramble! and, another one to keep in your sock drawer until you're ready to put it on your head and run around saying "i'm a squid! i'm a squid!" (wait, that's pantyhose, not pontifications...) kind of ties in to meta thoughts... shifting major parts of personality, such as religious orientation, opinoins, tendencies, loves... the biggest reason i've seen for doing such is an exercise in freedom, realization of the transitory nature of things that are usually regarded as concrete, or an exercise in will, doing something difficult because it is difficult but within the range of possibility. thoughts? wow. okay, i've made up for procrastinating for longer than i meant to, now it's your turn. :) take your time, and if you just want to get poked at by one thing at a time, that's entirely understandable and acceptable. heck, if you want to ignore all this and get poked at by something else entirely, that's okay too, i just demand rambles. :) crap. i guess i should do some actual work now. been here 3.5 hours and gotten about 1 hour worth of work done, if that. *sigh* 030926 ... User24 Agree that most people do turn out more open minded than I first give them credit for, as you say, it's the cynicism / elitism that says otherwise (and is most often proved wrong) I liked the IP spoofing analogy, I often use technological metaphors when talking about psychology (don't know if you've read that 'Esquire' article with Phiber Optik, where one of the phreakers says that taking drugs is like hacking your brain? (http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/esq-art.html) - I think it was that one anyhow..) again, agree very much that people perform unintentional, random acts of magic all the time, I think the distinction between magic and life is simply a matter of mentality; perhaps it's only magic if you think it is? auras are an intersting phenomenon, I think that it's quite possible that people's mental state can affect how they're percieved, whether it's just via a subtle form of body language, or whether there's literally a haze of 'aura particles' floating around them I don't know (though I'm more inclined to believe that it's partly subtle body language, and partly a psychic connection between them and you. On to a tangent here; I think that people were once telepathic, but lost the skill when we started living in larger settlements; when we were nomadic, it was useful to be able to keep in touch across vast distances, perhaps not as in being able to talk with one another, but on a lower level, being able to sense one another.. do excuse me, I'm off on another compete and utter tangent here, I followed your link to questing_deep_into_the_grey_caves, read all of that, only pausing to read everything in 'salvia', too.. that then took me off the erowid.com to look up more about salvia, which fascinates me by telling me that "At higher doses users report dramatic time distortion, vivid imagery, encounters with beings, travel to other places, planets or times, living years as the paint on a wall or experiencing the full life of another individual" ahem.. where was I? oh right, yeah, emotive visualisation, yes LARP is a good example, I tend to use it as a way of predicting people; create a copy of them in me, and then let me and the copy of them chat, to see what the real them would think of something.. hmm.. that's confusing, example: let's say I want to ask my boss for a pay rise, I create his personality within myself, and test out several approaches on this copy of him, whichever one works I use in real life. yeah, I think that about explains it.. Dreams. I'm really not the right person to ask, as explained on dream_diary, I don't usually remember my dreams (usually remember one / part of one less than once a month) I think that dreams are such a varied thing, "sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar". of course, other times.... ;) They can be the key to your life, someone else's life, the universe in general, or just random defragging of your brain. I take every dream individually, but usually just classify dreams as either cool, weird or scary, but don't read much into them (there are excpetions, such as dream_diary, which I'd love to know more about / have again) coming soon: hedonism and meta (re)programming. :) 030927 ... User24 btw, I don't know how coherent that was; for a change, I didn't re-read and edit it fourteen times. 030927 ... User24 ok hedonism.. The pursuit of pleasure is neccessary in order to gain satisfaction from life, there's no way it cannot be so; if you are satisfied, you have recieved pleasure (unless you don't enjoy feeling satisfied.. hmm. interesting one right there.) personally, I get a lot of pleasure from helping, pleasing and teaching other people, so I guess that my apparent selflessness is actually driven by an inner selfishness, as usual, my opinion boils down to "if it harms none, do as you will" - what could be more natural than pursuit of pleasure? As far as the boundaries of pleasure / pain.. well.. that's up to the individual; I don't think that anything is all bad, or all good, and the more extreme you get, the more of the opposite creeps in. Meta-Programming; As I said, I've not had a chance to do any practicle experiments, but I do like the idea of deliberately changing my preferences, suddenly stop liking brown bread, for instance. (in fact, I made a conscious effort a few months ago to like red wine, and now I do, so in a way I've already started meta programming) I think that it sounds like a fun thing to try out, suddenly change the way you are; stop a habit, take on new ones, etc. I think it will be a useful skill for mind-over-matter situations, teach you brain to accept conscious persuasion "No, this is not painful", or "No, I am not cold" - that kind of skill would be very useful indeed. And yes, a good excercise in free_will and personal choice, to an unprecedented extent. 030927 ... misstree okay, darlin', i didn't think i was in the mood to write right now, but that last piece makes me crack my knuckles and want to lean forward and light into a keyboard... i agree with you, for the most part, but this is an area i've always poked at with special interest, so, yeah. i've tried to find arguments against the thought that the Meaning of Liff is the pursuit of pleasure... it really does all seem to boil down to this... but somehow i get a sense that it's not the answer, hrm, that it's almost to primal a philosophy to be true... it's like saying that grass is green, well, that's true, but that says nothing about varieties of grass or how root structures build... but maybe that is the proper level of simplification for such an overbearing question? each person's pleasures are diffrent, and rarely are people fulfilled solely by the obvious means that hedonism suggests (good food, comfy clothes, sex, wow! these are a few of my favorite things!)... being of a more complex mental makeup than, say, cats (the ultimate epicures), we require not only the variety that a cat does (food, warmth, people to stroke us incessantly, play, hunting, curiosity, procreation), we need to feed our sense of Self as well, feel pleased with our actions, feel we have bettered ourselves, interacted meaninfully with other human beings. the mention of "selfless behavior" also deserves a thorough poking. (*warning!* though i personally think ayn_rand was a crotchety old bitch who needed to do some serious experimentation with altered mind states and lighten the hell up, i do retain bits and pieces of her philosophy, and this is a lot of where they come out. it tastes like bile to think that i have commonalities with objectivism, i hate it so, but that is a rant for another time.) *ahem* "selfless behavior"... oh so lauded, to do something not for your own benefit... but again i say, isn't that what it really comes down to? it's like tipping the waitress an extra buck; it's worth that dollar to me to know that i have shown appreciation to her, that it caused her pleasure, and that in the future if i have that waitress she may remember me. take being a fireman. there's not a whole lot pleasent about running into a burning building, getting scorched and risking death, especially if it turns out it was an unneccesary act. but i would imagine that the pleasure that they get from helping others, in that meaningful interaction kind of way, and the knowledge that they have made a positive impact. argh. i'm going to end that bit here, because my brain is getting muddled; poke at it if you will, or i may rant later, but i have more rambling to do. (*groans from the peanut gallery*) hey! shaddap! you can stop reading whenever you want! ;) *cracks knuckles again* pleasure and pain... hrmmmm... let me begin by saying that unless i misunderstand you, i disagree that there is a neccesary increase proportional to intensity of the amount of its opposite contained in pleasure or pain. perhaps you should explain before i chew on that one. personally, i think that pain is far more useful than pleasure, and can be pleasurable as well, sometimes due to cicumstance, and distinctly dependent on mindset. pain teaches us. pain motivates us. pain tells us we're doing something wrong. pain says something needs to be fixed. pain can be cleansing. pain provides a focus. what does pleasure do, but provide comfort? pleasure makes us sleep; pain wakes us up. there are circumstances when pain does cause pleasure; emotional endorphins, so to speak, can be very freeing after a painful episode. appreciating what you have, in a way. the mindset in which pain is approached entirely determines its effect on us. the default mindset is that pain is bad, pain is to be avoided. personally, i value sensation in all forms; it's input that lets us know we're alive. if one had all senses removed, does life still reside? there may be inernal workings, but with no contact with the outside world, it would be a closed set, a being unable to learn or grow outside of the realm of previous experience. pain, as i said, is a wonderful teacher. the instinct to avoid it does not always result in the most valuable outcome. and here is where meta-programming joins the dance. pain is a much more powerful sensation than pleasure, physically or emotionally. if one approaches pain as something desirable, truly experiences it as something desirable, does it not make it pleasurable, as you are recieving the object of your desire? if one's primary source of pleasure is recieving input and experiences, again does that not make pain pleasure? now, that desire does run contrary to the base instinct pain=bad; but this can be reprogrammed, temporarily or permanently, if one has enough will. 'course, meta-programming on this level is not at all easy; fortunately, from my own experiences, the overwhelming amount of experience at the time when this directive needs to be enforced provides a very strong focus, and a very unified reaction to shift. meta-programming on other levels can be damn hard; the wine is a good example of one that's slow and steady, and pretty interesting. things like the random religion generator in liber_null (roll a die, look at the list, believe that religion with all your heart for a week. roll again.) are considerably more difficult, as it involves ingrained beliefs, thought patterns, behavior shifts. i would be a completely different person if i became a by-the-book christian for a week. (*shudder* christian i could do without much problem except for the swearing, but a fundamentalist... again i *shudder*) part of the reason that i poked at metaprogramming more is that i'm trying to shift some emotional areas about, sever some connections, rebalance some reaction levels, reprioritize some needs... and it's damn difficult. got some good pain going though, so that might help. :P anyhow, need for food is setting in, and this is about a novel and a half. i'll comment on the previous post and poke at some more distinct areas at some indeterminate time in the future. forgive if i got a little preachy on this one, intensity does that to me, and again with the mindset thing. 'til later, *curtsy* 030927 ... User24 hey, sorry I've taken so long to reply.. ok, yeah, recognising that as we've said before, to get to the truth you have to take the common factors, and, well, basically get to the most basic parts of everything, hedonism is a pretty sound theory, I agree that it is a little un-glamorous, and yes, perhaps getting down to the absolute truth is akin to drinking vodka and grapejuice, and expecting wine. if we take any given complex idea, by which I mean a stem belief set that evolved fully into a religion, eg Christianity, Hindu, etc, and cut out all the bits we can dis-prove, we are left with a schematic, but not the actual thing, a tree with no branches. (is it still a tree?) What I'm getting at is the question of whether there is something more than logical, binary decisions, at the lowest level? If there is something else, call it an emotion, then the universe is randomly driven, which means there is no predictability, no stability, if there isn't, then the universe isn't hackable; you can't beat the perfect system, where even rebellion is accounted for, even needed to keep balance. I honestly don't know if there is or not, I don't think I can use logic to find out, as logic only works on logical systems, and if the universe is not logical, how can I work it out? and I don't think I can use emotion to find out, because any decision made on emotion is not guarunteed to be correct. I'd like there to be something else, merely from a romantic viewpoint, that the universe has some 'supernatural' element, there is beauty in the unknown, but more in the unknowable, but conversely, I'd like the universe to be pure, cold, logic - it's the way I work, and I can understand and even empathise with the universe that way.. Very interesting point about people's preferences, yes, you'd think we'd be a lot more similar, however my guess is that the basic hedonistic instinct is sitting quite quietly nudging in certain directions, in a subtle way, and then allowing all the other layers of reality to be applied in varying amounts before anything reaches your conscious mind, and unravelling that web of psuedo-reality is really what it's all about.. agreed, I don't think that the interchange of emotional opposites is made by default, but I do think that generally, extreme opposites share many of the same characteristics; you cry with both great sorrow and great joy, etc.. as to the usefullness of extreme emotions, yes, I find that the negative emotions are more powerful, but that's probally more my personal past than a typical case, and to lesser extents, it is, IMHO, more common for positive emotions to be experienced during negative emotions than vice versa, again, perhaps this is the brain compensating for lack of positive external stimuli, and producing it's own pleasure a la selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, or monoamine oxidase inhibitors (eek.. that brought back a section of my life I didn't want to remember... ahem) yeah, sorry, that's enough pleasure/pain thought for me, I may return to this subject another day.. sorry.. I will say, though that I agree with what you're saying there re: pain being a positive and necessary force, it's a much stronger emotion, and once you've got past the initial aversion, it's a wild horse to ride. indeed, when you've re-writing base emotions, you've got to be careful, I know that if I concentrated enough, I could stop my heart by mental effort (I can control my heart rate, it's a pretty cool excercise in concentration) It all depends on how deeply you want to hack yourself, I can make myself relaxed or angry at will, I have very good control of my emotions, which doesn't mean restriction, I make a split second decision whether to indulge in the emotion that comes naturally to me, and then allow or deny it, I find it very easy to do either. Once i'm experiencing the emotion, I usuall let it do what it wants, but I sometimes heighten or soften it's impact. It would be interesting to be able to create a new emotion, something unlike any other, imagine creating the feeling of pleasure, designing it, hmm, that'd be cool. yeah, meta-programming on a small scale is fun, but misses the larger potential impact; through meta-programming, we can choose our personality, even switch between personalities at a moment's notice, get to know people intimately, by replicating their emotions in ourselves; imagine a world where everyone understood you, you could even get it down to an art, people could pass their emotions to each other on a CD, so the other people understand, I'll email you my ideas, you could even stream information from one brain to another, artificial telepathy. yeah.. another tangent there, cybernetics, but it's all good.. back to meta-programming mm.. on less grand scales, it's a useful skill for becoming who you want to be, I wonder if I could make myself become psychic through meta-programming? or give myself any other talents.. that about wraps it up, hope you enjoyed :) PS; couldn't resist throwing this old one into the mix: what do you think about morality; is there a universal right and wrong, or is it down to personal choice? see ya. 030928 ... misstree drat, i'd forgotten who'd gotten tagged to be "it" last. :) prolly try to respond tomorrow, but i wanted to ask while i was thinking of it; did you ever get around to smoking nutmeg? any insights into herbal intoxication? (or chemical, or ritualistic, or just getting high on life, i suppose...) 031001 ... misstree okay, first i have to tell you that the first real question you posed, whether there is something beyond binary logic, is still giving me brain cramps. my brain is also running around and chasing its own stem. luckily, shoving a tap into the thing and draining it of its vital jiuces is usually the way to stop it from doing that, and that just happens to involve me writing. so... in the first part, i think that simplifying it to binary logic may be a mistake; i know less than i'd like of fuzzy logic systems, but they seem to be able to handle the more complex problems, and the universe is distinctly one big complex problem, if nothing else. (problem being more used in the mathematical sense at this point). again, i *think* i know what you're getting at, but if i end up chasing the wrong bird correct me... and allow me to remind myself to poke at formal philosophy once the siezures stop... okay, so you put forth the proposition that if the universe reacts solely to a binary logic set, then it's unhackable. i assume that you mean this to be the basic building blocks, matter and energy and all the weird and wacky (at least to us as yet) ways they interact. if i interpret this correctly, then even with allowance for fuzzy logic over binary, this is correct. this would furthermore imply that everything will happen exactly according to plan, that god is a giant supercomputer and we're just walking the predetermined path. i went into this to a pretty good degree over at why_didn't_god_eradicate_all_the_sins_and_evils, and i would poke at the altered specifics of this discussion, but what it comes down to, is to me, it's unimportant. if someone were to offer me the answer to the question of whether there is something beyond logic, i don't know that i'd take it. it doesn't matter to me. if the answer is yes, there is something more, it just confirms what i convinced myself long ago. if the answer is no, well, that'll make it harder to keep clinging to that belief, now won't it? since i formed that belief knowing that the answer was both unknowable and unimportant, truth is not my primary motivator in this instance. what that belief could do for me is. i know how much that answer sounds like a cop out, and in a way it is, but to me, many of the questions that traditional philosophy tackles are just downright unimportant. i have no care if god exists--i don't think the chances are very good for one of the "do this or burn!" type religions having it right, so how the world came to be, really, i don't need to recreate the trick, and it's an unanswerable question, so i move on to the ones that matter. i apologize, this is a pretty lackluster response, my brain is really really sluggish this morning but i wanted to at least start on this, so i'm going to end this portion here. more will be forthcoming, and may actually be coherent. 031002 ... misstree i am still chewing on the universal right and wrong question, haven't quite formulated my response, but i promise i'll come back to it... 031005 ... User24 ... and I promise I'll respond soon. 031006 ... User24 haha, you've not done your stalking very well, my dear, I have plenty of insights into herbal intoxication, for just about any purpose you can concieve (in fact, that's true of almost any subject) ok, I'd love to believe that it's incredibly useful for my beliefs that I smoke weed, but unfortunately, I've yet to do any research, in theory, however, hmm, glad you liked the question re binary logic; it had me scratching me head for a good while (and I still am, really) Fuzzy logic systems, AFAIK, work on a higher level to the logic I'm talking about.. I think they work by making small binary decisions, and working up to large ones, it's a tough concept to explain, and I don't think I'm being very coherent here, in other words, I think that fuzzy logic systems use binary logic on lower levels, and amass those binary decisions to make to final, fuzzy decision, It's also very interesting to look at randomness; whether it actaully can be produced, or whether every number can, given enough starting information, be predicted (chaos and fractals would say yes.) yes indeed, the universe is a massive problem, as Douglas Adams said, if anyone finally solved it, it would probally reboot itself. well yes, that's the question, is god a computer? and if so, what impact does that fact have? is there a difference between simulated, nonrandom reality and random reality? (I want to stay away from computer analogies; too many connotations) fair enough point about stopping the pursuit of truth as far as religions go, it's the underlying belief set that's important, not the implementation of those core beliefs.. ok, I know you're still reeling from the last barrage, and that it's kinda turned into ask_misstree, (feel free to turn the tables back at any point .:) -- a 3 eyed smiley, cool.) ok, lala, thinking.. right, human race, why is it that we're so damn solitary? When I was younger, I used to think that everyone knew each other, etc, why is this not true? I know it's my politics that screams out right now "Capitalism" but perhaps I'm just averted to saying that because I don't like saying things before I'm sure they're correct.. hmm ~Ancients of Mu-Mu~ 031006 ... misstree damn you! sure, you gotta throw all this interesting stuff at me *right* before i go to some sort of discordian meetup thing that i am in theory hostessing! :P um, not gonna start, gotta fly in a moment, but, ya, *wags finger menacingly* you better watch out! 'cause soon i'm gonna type! 031006 ... misstree 24, man, this is going to take me a few days to get to, my brain is just sizzled right now (see: misstree), but trust me that this is pretty damn high on the priority list. 031007 ... realistic optimist sorry to butt in like this, i just read this whole series today, and was struck by a few things. the first i will quote thusly: -- What I'm getting at is the question of whether there is something more than logical, binary decisions, at the lowest level? If there is something else, call it an emotion, then the universe is randomly driven, which means there is no predictability, no stability, if there isn't, then the universe isn't hackable; you can't beat the perfect system, where even rebellion is accounted for, even needed to keep balance. -- perhaps i'm missing something here or perhaps i don't understand chaos theory very well. i was of the impression that a good model for how the universe worked was a set of formulae (at least 3) which, when combined, produce generally predictable but not specifically predictable data sets. you brought up the idea of strange attractors earlier, user 24. (here comes a giant aside: when i read chaos: the making of a new science, i was also reading the celestine prophecies. it seemed to me that the celestine prophesies was talking about strange attractors when describing that person who just stands out to you, either they look like someone you know, or they stand out for a different reason. These people have something for you: a bit of knowledge, a nudge, a paradigm shift catalyst.) it seems that the strange attractors are the number 2 playing with the number 3. or less cryptically, but also less succinctly, they are the ordering force playing with the entropic. to me, that would mean that the universe is unhackable in terms of having a set system which could derive reality, however i don't believe it is unhackable. allow me to explain. no really. well ok i'll just do the best i can. i believe that people are quite similar. this whole pleasure/pain analogy is a decent metaphor for a binary system. also, misstree, i would like to address your question about is there something other than logic. it is my belief that there is this logical component to man, and that there is the binary component, and for some intent and purpose in this aside, we will say they are the same. i believe that there is also a separate process which exists in the universe and in man as well. it is the third formulae which allows unpredictability, which allows natural chaos. this separate process manifests in many ways: intuition, emotion, dream, syncronicity, sudden paradigm shift, and others. is it unknowable? perhaps misstree has the right of it, and that is not even a worthwhile question. is it simply a manifestation of the binary? in the same way that the pleasure/pain principle doesn't seem to completely encapsulate things, yet comes close enough to give it a great amount of validity, i feel that one can justify these things logically, bringing all of the pieces, yet still walk away with an unassembled puzzle. all of this is to say that i believe that man can hone this Other process, and can hack the universe at times. predict the future, telepathically communicate, figure out the truth of a situation when there is not enough data to make an educated decision, empathize, and many other better and worse examples of such manifestations. one can recognize a strange attractor and thus predict how the universe might bend around such a thing, but only because we also have that element of the chaotic in us. now that i've blathered on about what i think and feel, what i really want to get down to is asking use24. am i mistaken in how i am perceiving chaos theory and its relation to your discussion involving the derivative universe? have i missed something here? it seemed that you were in conflict with yourself, but it was only because of me projecting myself onto the discussion complete with my own beliefs and ideas, so this is a call for you to break the binding spell i have cast on my understanding here. and i'd like to hear your take on my take on chaos theory as it relates to mankind and the universe. and i should put on some clothes. its cold in here. 031007 ... realistic optimist user 24: as for your question (can't you read the damn title of the blathe? ;)) i believe that we are so solitary because we require it. i also think that the realization of how alone we really are is one of the most scary and hellish realizations i have ever had, fully relished and experienced. (well i was tripping on LSD at the time, and was trying to break myself or see if i could have a bad trip and actually lose control... i couldn't.) but i think that capitalism does have something to do with it. i mean we are socially programmed and bombarded with messages from media and through others, and the only real truth at first is within ourselves. it is not until we attain this truth that we can boldly sumberse ourselves in "culture" and not drown. i feel that we, as humanity, are in the early twenties. we are drinking and drugging and smoking cigarettes and fucking whores without condoms because we haven't owned up to our humanity or accepted responsibility for ourselves yet. because of this, we need that solitude. 031007 ... User24 realistic optimist, no problem with your butting in, you raise some good points, don't worry, I put on a good show, but most of what I'm saying above is conjecture and guessing; I don't understand chaos theory as thoroughly as I'd like.. As far as predictablility goes, I'm sure that if you know enough about the starting conditions, you can predict the end result; just like how a mandlebrot always looks the same given the same initial conditions; the real intrigue with chaos theory, for me, is that when you cahnge those inital starting conditions, by a miniscule amount, the end result is so vastly different, and yet, still predictable, if I enter those same starting parameters again, I'll come up with exactly the same fractal - all this would point to predictability, and purely binary logic. For more info, some stunning visuals and a great wayu to waste hours, search google for 'fractint'. explain more about celestine prophecies, I've not heard anything about this before As for strange attractors, I believe that everything is driven by the forces of chaos, from the way the human mind works, to continental drift, and beyond, in an all-encompassing system; a fractal of the universe, this is really the reason that I enjoy chaos so much, because I can understand it, it requires no faith (sorry for getting a little preachy there..) Interesting theory, if I'm reading you correctly, about everything being guided by a predictable system, but left to chance lower down; "the ordering force playing with the entropic" However we're not dealing with a closed system; everything interacts so well that I wonder if there is an all-encompassing equation, or if, much like the internet and ISO standards, everything is 'coded' differently, but interacts using a universal format; is the universe one perfect system, or is it an amalgamation or miniture perfect systems, imperfectly interacting? that would allow for my logical half to be placated; yes, there is binary logic, but instead of it being interspersed with randomness, something I just can't accept, it is flawed in some ways, like a badly written program, logical, but depending on undependable variables, thus producing erratic results (perhaps 'badly written' is the wrong term to use, instead, perhaps it designed this way, and therefore perfectly imperfect?) Reducing the world to binary logic is a tough realisation to make, and I'd like to believe that there is some area that is un-antipatable, however my mind just can't accept that, given how perfect and beautiful nature is, there's any degree of chance. I think that the so-called random aspects of human and universal nature are not as random as we'd like to believe, see the behaiviourist experiments (Watson and Rainer, BF Skinner, etc) and also to some degree, the cognitive approach; we are predictable to a fair degree, and the only reason, IMHO, that we are not 100% predictable is that there are so many influencing factors; it it were possible to know everything about a person, you'd be able to absorb them, become them, and perfectly predict everything (Of course, I'm talking theoretically here; the above simply is not practicle) I like how you put the pleasure/pain similie; close enough to work with, but not quite spot on, and of course, we can never know the answers until we die; 100 experiments may prove me right, but 1 can prove me wrong, I think it's all we can do to assume everything is correct until proven wrong (which is why the truth is so important; I can't imagine hanging my beliefs on something which isn't true, which (again, getting preachy, sorry)is why chaos is good for me, as I can evaluate it myself, and don't have to rely on the instability of second hand knowledge, or faith)) I agree that the universe is hackable, through whichever means work ("nothing is true, everything is permitted") realistic optimist, I'm always in conflict with myself, well spotted, I did feel I was backtracking a little in my earlier respsonses; it's what happens when I make my beliefs up on the spot. That's not to say they're not solid, just solidly dynamic. If you have managed to inspire this length of response from me, then trust me, your understanding can't be that bad. Well, I'm not sure if I've answered you; that's the trouble with open questions, hopefully I've answered and inspired, feel free to ask more, I'm sure you will. As for the solitary nature of humanity; well, it's an interesting question, with answers that are complex and diverse. I'm not sure what my opinion on it is; I'd like to say that's it's not our nature to be solitary, any help in backing this view up? Time's up, insert a dime for more. Sorry about awful spleling and grammer. ;) 031008 ... mon broken_symmetry 031008 ... realistic optimist to address your initial comments regarding predictability, i must assert my belief that mathematical predictability does not translate to natural predictability, at least not perfectly. the reason for this is that we dont live in a vacuum. there are a million tiny things (butterfly wings flapping) which can affect the outcome during the course of the actual playing out of the formula, many of which are not, in fact, predictable. i'm sure you will argue the addition of one tiny three letter word (yet), but i sould disagree because some of these are dynamic systems which in themselves are subject to the same whims of interjecting variables. unless we somehow become omniscient (at which point i believe we would cease to be us walking around in our bodies, as Hegel believes would be the case upon attainment of what he calls Absolute Knowledge, but would have vibrated at such a level as to be more dispersed than light, actually becoming one with the universe in a non corporeal way, but i digress..), at which point we would not be predicting but would be being. funny you should bring up psychological constructs such as behaviorism. i went to a highly behaviorist school for my undergrad psych study and the things i was taught made me want to puke. i think that for a building block understanding of human behavior, behaviorism is fine. or for understanding the structure of children's behaviour it is a decent model. however it clearly does not encompass higher order processes and breaks down when trying to explain concepts like faith and altruism. indeed, as soon as self consciousness and the ability for meta cognition occurs i believe the behaviorism model ceases to be apt. behaviorism runs on the principle that the pain and pleasure principle constitutes the whole of human experience. only that which can be measured is of significance. and if thats not post hoc i dunno what is. the only thing that was prevalent which was not behaviorism was cognitive and the cognitive stuff is kind of a joke too. i mean i never went to my 300 level cognitive classs, did some of the reading and got all a's. why? because they were merely repackaging and selling common sense without really getting to the meat of the matter. it was a reaction to behaviorism, to be sure, and then spawned cognitive behaviorism which is fucking funny if not oxymoronic. psychology is too young of a field to use as an example for how the world works. they are still busy in the classification stage of understanding. give it 50 years or so, and they might have something significant to say. (and i won't apologize for the preachiness, as we are all adults, and we all know that these are our opinions and will be taken as such.) i would be interested to know what you think of free will, if you believe that knowing everything about a person would allow you to predict their behavior. especially a discordian ;) celestine prophecies, eh? it was a poorly written book with a lot of great ideas. it talks about syncronicity and personality types and ways life gives you clues as to what you need to pay attention to, like what i was describing. when someone stands out to you, or they look like someone you know you need to go talk to them, and the conversation will naturally reveal what you need to know. i'm not sure what else to say about it, i can go on a whole tirade if you like, but i suggest you read it if you get a chance. much better that way ;) the analogy of windows and solaris communicating imperfectly through unix is quite interesting. or perhaps peripherals communicating through imperfectly written drivers... ill let that one stew a bit. why does unpredictable have to mean chance? just because you cant predict it, does that mean "god plays dice?" i dont know about that.also, why is chance imperfect, why is symmetry or circles or predictability or logic perfect? why was galileo wrong? as far as whether it is our nature to be solitary... i believe it is in our nature to do what we must to survive. right now we are pushing toward more solitude because we are establishing ourselves as independents. perhaps its not really early twenties but merely late teens that i use for the analogy of humanity in terms of the life cycle and our behavior, because we here in teh great american experiment do not live with grandma and aunt matilda. we put gramma in a home and crazy aunt matilda lives in a cottage in the woods. we have no sense of family no matter how much we like to talk about family values. this, too, shall pass, but not until we hit our mid twenties and "rediscover" family, and society as worthwhile entities. now on a less grand scale of course we will always like to have other people around because we can use them, and its not as morose as it sounds. perhaps more on that later i think i need to make some ramen. 031008 ... User24 sure, we're not in a vacuum, which is why traditional physics won't work in the real world, just as pure mathematics and applied mathematics are two different things; however the difference with chaos is that it isn't designed as a potential scenario- it's a practical theory, which actaully wouldn't work as well in a vacuum, it depends on the flapping of butterfly wings, the only physical problem with it is that it is, practically speaking, impossible to allow for all the variables in a real-world equation, however, and now we cross over into pure theory, if you could allow for all the confounding variables, you would have a predictable system, it's quite simply that if you know everything about the system, you know everything about the system, however practically impossible it may be. yes, the universe is a massive complex relationship to itself, and the relationships rely on each other, in a pseudo-random fashion, but we actually have a 'real-life' example of how such a complex system could be designed, if you look at fractals, you'd never believe that that level of complexity and inter-dependancy could be worked into an equation, predicted and regulated, but there it is. Agree very much that we'd have to be omniscient in order to understand the inner workings of the universe, but if you take a more egocentric view, we are the known universe, and therefore are in a perfect place to understand it's infinite complexity. again, the behaiviourist and cognitive apporaches, indeed, most modern science and philosophy, are inadequate constructs, but at the higher level of reality, by which I mean the less truthful layers, they work; it's only when you dig deeper into the program that those theories fall down. Again, I agree that psychology is not fully explored and solidifed into a science, but that's no reason to ignore it completely, or discredit those theories that do make sense; just because we disagree with plato's world of ideas is no reason to throw out philosophy in general. I had an intereting debate over at free_will, but I will expand on this within the current context of personality prediction; By 'knowing everything about a person' I don't just mean their memories, personality, life experience and mood, but absolutely everything, for instance, if you like drinking coke, I'd need to know everything about coke and it's ingredients, how that shipment of bottles got to your town, etc, and I'd need that level of understanding for each and every aspect of your life, past and present, which, ultimately, means I'd need to know everything there is to know. Of course, I'm talking theory again, so on a practical level, I'd need to know everything I could know about you -to a reasonable level-, this would enable me to predict your actions -to a reasonable level-. For instance, even having written with you for a few days, I'm begining to get a picture of what you are, where you're coming from, with more research I could start predicting your answers to my questions and so forth, much like a game of chess, you have to know your opponent in order to beat them. The more I think about the theory that the world is less like one application running smoothly, and more like several million applications, written at different times, all interacting theough the same protocols, with slightly different implementations of the standards, the more it seems reasonable, however, I'm reluctant to accept it as the end answer, as it's too similar to the current internet, while co-incidences can happen, I don't think we inadvertantly re-invented the universe in the 60's. Perfection is not -neccessarily- a good thing; you're hanging on to preconceptions about the words I choose; perfect simply means that everything is accounted for, budgetted and expected; nothing is left to chance. IMHO, perfection is 'better' than chance because chance involves risk, and risk involves potential failiure; if everything is accounted for, nothing can go wrong. 031009 ... Nukemall I think I'm going to have a lie down. My brain hurts from all this philosophy and conjecture. Anyone have any demorol? Found you mon. Broken Rhythm. 031009 ... User24 misstree, what are your views on higher level implementation of magic(k)? I'm talking about the way you actually perform rituals, etc, you mentioned a skull earlier, can you explain how this fits in to your overall belief set, the basic elements of your rituals, and so forth? I'm looking for some pointers, as I said earlier, I've been out of practice for some time, I think these conversations have sparked my interest again and would like some advice.. thanks in advance, . 031012 ... misstree very very yummy question, in depth answer asap, but i have some hard-core gossiping to do today, so it may take me a little bit. :) 031013 ... User24 grinz, take yer time :) 031013 ... misstree i can either split this into 2 parts or post it all tomorrow... any preference? 031013 ... User24 may as well do it tomorrow, I'm going to bed soon, so I won't be able to read and repsond. Cheers, . 031013 ... User24 repsond, yes, it's a form of meditation used mainly by korean monks. 031013 ... misstree so, i spent the better part of today and the better part of yesterday at work writing this out. it's long as hell. if i had managed not to ramble quite so meanderingly it would be a masterpiece, but to write that took some serious brain muscle relaxation so things could kind of ooze out. had to manage this while processing insurance claims, mind you, not the most conducive environment. i'm a bad technomage. (actually, that's when i get some of my longest and best writing done. nothing to distract me except work, so, nothing to distract me.) but tree, you say, there is no megalithic post beneath this brief one. whyfor do you tease me so? because the net access was down at work today, and my attempt to email it to myself failed. *sigh* it could be worse. i could have done what i did to a 3 hour email the other day, closed it without sending. regardless, you're gonna have to wait. serves ya right, asking me a question that's basically, "so, tree, how 'bout them rituals? why don't you give me a dissertation on them, something about what you do and why, what kind of stuff you use and how, some theories... heck! throw in a bit about different types! that'd be fun." okay, so you didn't really say that, but that's how i took it (which is a good thing, despite all my crabbing ;), and answering a question like that can't be done with any halfassery. so, yeah. fact remains, unless they get the servers to poop out my email before i go dancing, tough titikaka until tomorrow. *lick!* 031014 ... User24 no problem, m'dear, the forces of nature conspire against us; that is inevitable. 031015 ... misstree **still not 100% happy with this, there's still a lot missing, and it rambles all over the damn place, but here ya go, enjoy if you can. (mua ha ha) also, i realized that a lot of the technical equating things are not so present (like why things actually do the things that they do on a bit more basic level), but dammit, my fingers hurt.** i'm going to explain this all from what i do because of how it fits into my paradigm, which is admittedly largely sourced off of a pack of lies, but i can't give as good of an asessment of other people's paradigms, so tough titties. [note from later: this is mostly focused on private, formal rituals, though i babble about Trinkets near the end. this says nothing about on-the-fly stuff, nor group rituals, nor daily or incidental rituals, nor impromptu rituals, but this is a novel already and you have to ask about those separately and insert another ten cents if you want more on those.] [also a note from later, i use the word "usually" a lot, because things change every time, but this is a general overview and i inserted a couple of examples where i could remember enough to make them informative.] i'll start before the beginning. when i do ritual, i usually know that i need to do it 24-48 hours in advance. be it just a need for centering or actually enacting a work or trying to sort out information, i *know* it, and start mentally preparing myself for it, revving myself up or down as the case may be to strike a balance. my mood a few hours before hand is usually rather calm, still like the surface of an undisturbed pond, i think from me kind of subconsciously readying myself, the anticipation adding a little bit of energy but a calm kind. the first thing that i usually do as official preparation for a ritual is shower; i've found that showers are good for both general-purpose thinking and resetting mood, the whole washing away the day thing. before i begin i have to collect my Things. Things are very important to me, they are very evocative and for the most part very specifically charged. (i'll get back to that.) i putter about my room, occasionally smoking cigarettes, rooting through my picnic basket that holds all my "magical" crap (candles, blades, Trinkets, pieces of bark, things to burn things on, a goodly number of nuts [the metal kind that go on screws, don't know why but i hoard them], other knicknacks). in a minute i'll list everything that i pretty much always have, but in this stage i'm also grabbing whatever calls to me, pretty rocks or pieces of ribbon or beads, as well as random tools, such as my burning pot or mortar and pestle or a fresh razor, all just as what feels right for the purpose at hand. i also, if i have anything laying about, will grab objects that are associated with the purpose of ritual, personal belongings of other's being the most common example. well, while i'm mentally compiling my workspace, i might as well list and explain some of the regular players (and hope that they don't mind... if my house burns down tonight, y'all will know that one of them took offense. ;) the skull that i mentioned earlier is a plaster skull of proportionate size, greyish-painted, that is meant to have candles put into a recess at the top. physically, i often use it to burn the primary candle if i'm using one (again, back to that), or to destroy components at the appropriate time (as it usually has fire within it), and if i'm using razors i'll rest them in its eyeholes, 'cause it's convenient and out of the way. within my paradigm, it is a semi-spirit, function gave base thought, though i lean away from it having any level of self-awareness. (really, i haven't asked it, and i don't particularly want to.) it is primarily focused towards being a container for fire and helping me seek out information, as it gave me the impression when it was given to me that it could see through distances. there's a square clay tray, about 5" by 8", that serves as a good center piece and place to put the small stuff, as well as a place to burn. no special spiritual significance to this one, if i don't list it for the others then it's not there. on this tray always goes a small treasure box (about 3" tall) that i put the debris from spells in (charred flowers or used razors or wax drippings or pieces of hair or jewelry or coins or all sorts of things)... it's quite neutral in itself, but it serves as a good Special place to put focal points once they've been used, and in putting things in there it resigns it to the past and seals it away. once in a great while i will fish things out, but for the most part things just fall out on their own over time, which is fine, because i have no awareness of it and it doesn't really impact anything. what else... there's a dark blue patterned velvet cloth that i keep everything on, it kind of helps define a sacred space for all my Things... there's a white dragon that's a protector of sorts, plus a stabilizing factor, and has lots of other significance that doesn't matter in this context, but it does tend to be a good focus for some of the talking to myself i inevitably do, as does the skull mentioned earlier. i also usually have at hand a vial of "ink" that's basically charred down remnants from other rituals, plus a few other things, that kind of sum up to Me in a burnt form. if a cutting is involved in ritual this gets rubbed into it, or sometimes it's just used as a smudge or a marker, or if there's any particularly important fluid i wish to save, a drop or two go in there. among the objects that are always there but non-specific, i almost always have a glass of water or some other liquid, a few candles, matches if i have them and a lighter if i don't, a pen and paper, some sort of blade or another, and occasionally a packed hitter set to the side. incense comes and goes depending on availability. now, good pagans will recognize this as a common setup for wiccan rituals, and in fact those were the kind of rituals i first learned about, so it makes sense. (the chalice, the athame, the incense, and... well, then, i'm missing one, aren't i? ;) a lot of this is based in that camp but morphed over ten years or so. so, this all gets piled in some sort of area while i get ready. i take my time, get all the lighting nixed, smoke a cigarette and contemplate what i need to do in the ritual i'm about to begin. once i finish the cigarette, i start arranging things. my main concern is balance, it's esthetically pleasing to me and Feels right. the clay tray always goes in the center for easy access, the blade to one side or another, the skull to the back and left. i just generally put things where i think they belong. okay, so the ritual itself... all this i kind of view as part of the ritual, getting the proper mindset in place to get the proper mindset in place, if you follow. i don't think that any of these trappings are technically neccesary, and again i hold up the big sign that says "tree believes in a pack of lies!" and mutter under my breath "doesn't everyone?" this is just how *i personally* have evolved over the time that i've been doing some form of ritual, so it's what works for me. i usually start with lighting candles about the table, the only source of light, occasionally calling the elements traditional to wiccan ritual, occasionally calling other things on whims, occasionally just lighting candles. (to be perfectly honest, i don't quite remember. been trying for two days to think of it, and i'm drawing a blank.) there's usually a candle at each of the four points, again that balance thing, and either one or two in the center. one is usually used as a foci for calling some form of divinity, which is usually a varied form of a more primal one, eris = verra = whatever name/incarnation seems appropriate. there have been occasions where there was a second candle, and a specific spirit invoked, but this is rare and i'm not going to talk about it right at the moment, because i'm already brushing my brain against enough weird stuff, i don't want that perking up as well. the lighting of that center candle is the sign that the ritual is officially beginning, to set myself about my business. i often spend a few moments talking to whatever i feel like talking to (usually looking at the dragon while addressing the air in the center, because the dragon looks back at me and air doesn't). um, now is when i think i need to delve into specifics to explain, because this is where each ritual gets different, but honestly my memory's pretty crappy so forgive if this is kinda vague. okay, an example. one ritual that stands out in my mind happened when my journal in new orleans was in the posession of someone who had absented themselves. in this case i also had Nobody, who is a watchdog of sorts (see: *****), called in to be involved in the ritual. i had a couple of minor items from the gent who had my journal, probably not too special to him, but enough to get a good strong association going in my brain. (it was a plastic alien from a quarter machine and a dog collar, if you're interested.) i focused on these for a bit, just sitting there with them in my hand loosely held letting my mind roam over them, gently guiding it back when it wandered, letting little details about him and the overall sense of him kind of fill the moment. once i had him good and solid, i felt around for Nobody with a different part of my brain and shared the essence with him a little, like putting a hound on a scent. i took the pen and paper and worked up a sigil, garden variety done with letters morphing into eachother. i've never been overly fond of these, they don't mesh well with my brainset, i more often take a few symbols and toss them in a blender, but there you are. did alpha sigil, don't remember if i wrote it on something and burned it or traced it in the air or what, but it basically came down to "i want my journal back." after i'd focused on this as well as the essence i'd brought to mind for a bit, i got rid of where i'd written the sigil (or hid it away somewhere--like i said, i'm not sure) and sent Nobody off into the night, visualizing him going out the window and over the city. that one is kind of a crappy example, it feels like, but like i said it survives in my brain with the details mostly intact. (i did get my journal back two days later, though there's no way to determine what's random chance and what's me poking the right buttons.) other general patterns that i follow are pretty obvious, burning things to release this that or the other, knotting cords around trinkets for binding stuff, like i said i took a lot of the wiccan influence with me. weirder stuff shows up in other examples, but again i plead stoner memory. another brief example would be a quest for information, as was the most recent ritual i did when i was trying to figure out why the universe was bending me over instead of the other way around. (heeeeheehe! sorry. ahem.) it started off rather ineffectually, and i was basically using ritual to gain access to the parts of my brain that wouldn't normally give response, most likely because i just didn't want to know the answers. lots of talking to nothing in that one, to the skull and the dragon and the golden apple on the altar and the styrofoam head over my window and Nobody, but i was getting absolutely none of the intuition that i had hoped for/expeted. it occurred to me that i'd laid my tarot deck off to the side as i was setting things up, and that Things' main purposes are rarely communicating information. busted out the tarot deck, and just a simple three-card spread with another three thrown down for clarification was dead accurate and did indeed speak volumes. improvisation is, for me, the biggest tool i use. it basically comes down to, have what you might need at hand, and do what feels proper. after i do whatever is specific to the ritual i'm doing, i occasionally do a few things for closure... often there's some more talking, things like that, and on a few occasions (i'd say once out of every three times, so around once a year) there's a cutting at the end. i need to stop and speak about this, because anyone reading this is also probably familiar with the standard practices of "cutters," and will thus be likely to either believe that they empathise or think i'm a sick fuck. i'll try to be brief. this is not done as some sort of punishment, a way of asserting control, or even in this case for the sensation. in ritual, it serves as a very powerful focal point which leads to a good blank mind set. it's a great way *for me* to build blank energy and release it. (see: ***cut** for a better description of what ritual cutting in this sense is to me). part of the reason that i rub the me-ink into ritual cuttings is to distinguish them, part to return some of what is expelled in the process, part a way of ensuring minor permanence (i usually end up with what looks like a light trace from a lead pencil). if you want i can go into the use of sensation to lead to altered mind state and magical workings at a later point, but i usually don't use that with ritual outside this case. again i wish i could be less vague, but i usually just kind of know when i've exhausted my purposes and it's time to end the ritual. i sit back a bit, take a deep breath, and take a look over what's been moved, used, made or unmade; what i've done, basically. i adress any spirit or Thing or deific incarnation or general concept i may have adressed earlier, thank it for its help, and tell it to get the hell out. i also include a general, "thanks guys, see ya later" type thing. i cannot stress enough how important this is to do, as if you don't, there may be things hanging out that you're unaware of, and they may not be very friendly, and, yeah. from personal experience, it is very very important to send everything away, including just kind of dissipating the energies that you've gathered. pete carrol and a few others talk about using laughter for such a circumstance, and i can see validity in that, but for me usually just formally going "get out!", smoking a cigarette, and puttering around the room doing mundane shite does the trick. i usually leave the ritual area set up as it was for at least a day, until using things in everyday life or moving things for whatever reason starts to dissipate it, and then it gets put away the next time i clean my room. okay, the whys and wherefores. this may come through as somewhat repetitive, but i think that this is the meat of what you wanted, so here it is in a can. (ritual spam! whee!) i'll start with Things. most of the Things that deserve the capital have been in my life a goodly number of years, which is more than i can say about anything but a handful of friends. over time, Things become like friends to me, familiar and comforting, and each with their own personality. because i associate strong emotions with them, they gain power as tools and foci. even more minor things have something of this to them, such as associative trinkets, and Trinkets in general. hrm... i suppose i should define Trinkets. though i only do it in ritual setting such as above about half the time, i consider making Trinkets a ritual in itself. i would pass this off and try to answer this separately, but i know i'll never get around to it. a Trinket is an object, usually made for someone else, that is put together out of things of relative value; colored string, jingle bells, little doodads of memorabilia, pretty shiny things of all shapes and sizes. again with the examples; the last Trinket that i made... i was giving a boi a goodly amount of poetry i'd written him, so i printed it out landscaped and took a pair of scissors to the side of each, trimming it in semi-random ways, so that each poem covered the one below it. this took me a good hour or so to do, and my brain was thoroughly engaged in the doing. that, i think, is the key to making trinkets; it's engaging the mind in ways that don't produce conscious thought, and, i'm not sure exactly how do describe it, but in the making there are parts of your mind that are idly tooling about exploring the area while you work. in this case, tooling around about the boy, about the resurgence in poetry that i'd written, things like that. those thoughts get woven into the work, in their way. after i cut it all up, i used my stilletto (another Thing) to poke holes in the side of each sheet, one by one, then threaded ribbon through each. it's important not to try to do shortcuts with trinkets, not only because you may fuck it up, but also because that individual meticulous attention is a large part of the making. also, a lot of this is done by the seat of my pants; i have some idea of what i want to end up with, and usually end up with something vaguely similar, except that it's put together Right. in this case, the ribbon binding was through two holes instead of one, and it had a beautiful shiny trinket on the front, and other pieces of ribbon hanging off. it came out beautifully. Trinkets, as i said, are most often gifts for other people. i'm not sure if i know why this is well enough to explain it. Trinkets are pretty shiny things made with love, and it just seems right that they should be made for others. i usually make them for people that i want to be thinking of me, or that i want to thank for some turn of emotion, or suchlike. in the case of the poetry, it was thanks for moving me to such words. (and many times have i cursed the personal rule that dictates i have to give poetry to people after i write it.) i use the metaphor that Trinkets are like glitterbombs, where you make them, package all this whatever in there real tight, and then when you hand them to someone they pop and smear You all over them. in the case of the poetry Trinket i wasn't able to give it to the person for a week, and ended up making another Trinket as an envelope (Trinkets don't have a good shelf-life, if you don't get rid of them right away your brain will chew on it and get it all covered with stinky goo and sour it). i gave it to its owner the night i put it into the envelope, and you should have seen the childlike glee on his face. he was amazed, flattered, and delighted. it was wonderful. he hasn't spoken to me since. *shrugsigh* anyhow, i think i wandered from the point... i was talking about... um... Things! yes, Things. most of my Things have a distinct personality, though perhaps flavor is a better word for it, because most have little actual active energy--it's mostly just a battery for a certain type of energy, though when i interact with it, it reacts in specific ways. an example is the stiletto that always tries to bite me. the contrast to such things would be Nobody, a Thing with a very distinct personality, as mentioned in his very own blathe. m i blathed about somewhere else, and will find where by marking hte page thusly: *****, which, if you're seeing that, means i didn't do crap for editing and instead ran off to one of the other urgencies begging for my attention. tough titikaka. it just occurred to me that if i try to describe all the kinds of rituals, i'm never going to finish this. you were asking about formal ritual right, RIGHT? *glares* *sigh* to me, dancing is a ritual, smoking pot can be a ritual, toasting beer with a friend is a ritual, hell, getting gussied up for goth night is a ritual. it is a formalized setting used to manipulate magical energies. it is something that i do with reverence and gravity. well, as much reverence and gravity as you can expect from someone of my ilk. but really, i'm exhausted on the subject and need to end it for a bit, i'll probably write more when i edit this down and up and sideways, but, well, *whines like a puppy*, an old dear friend needs responding to, so, again i say tough titikaka. *zoom* 031015 ... User24 woo! you weren't joking about the length! cool! big grin :) a reply is in the thought factory, ready for publication tomorrow, hopefully. Ciao, . 031015 ... User24 or maybe the day after.. :) fair enough about the 'usually' thing, I wouldn't expect a complete 'how to user guide', everything changes every second, in fact I'd be quite suprised if you used a strict set of rigid rituals, it doesn't seem fitting to me, given your beliefs and general stance on life. hrm... it's hard to reply, without simply repeating 'I agree', and 'thankyou' over and again.. so apologies in advance about the haphazard nature of my reply; I'll dive into some aspects of what you said and probally give you some more stuff to chew on, *retrospective note; I've made a few assumptions, based on what you've said, hopefully I'm not wildly off track* here goes :) a little confused over the 28-48 hours in advance bit; are you talking about a kind of forewarning, or just that it usually takes that long for a ritual to take effect? if it's a forewarning, has this developed over time, or has it been something that's stayed fairly constant throughout? Also if it is, how long to you usually need to wait until you see any results (Of course I understand that this is not an exact science (yet..) and that it's bound to vary each time) I can understand how a shower would clear everything out nicely, it makes sense that washing the day away on a physical level will also go some way to doing the same mentally. interesting that you smoke cigarettes, personally I'd find that that would undo a lot of the centering (but that's just because I find cigarettes very... dirty (don't get me wrong; I smoke around 5 rollups a day, and occasionally cigars, but cigarettes are just too full of crap for me - anyway!)) yep, magically charged / significant items are an important part of ritual (that's the whole point, right?!) also can see your reasoning behind grabbing other bits and bobs to suit the individual purpose, and also to keep the rital evolving as a process; refining, discovering new things that work well, etc. Using others' personal objects makes a lot of sense, a process borrowed from witchcraft in general, AFAIK. Aids visualisation, helps create a mental link between you and them, so yeah, with you on that one, and I've found it to be very effective, if not essential, in the past. I did a group ritual once where we took a toy with a mechanism in it, wrapped a personal item of the person we were targetting around the toy, cut open the toy, pulled the mechanism out and then sewed the toy back up; the mechanism we visualised as all the bad parts of the guy. The next day he confided in one of us, saying "I feel really weird, like a part of me has been cut away" heh. success. :) I can see sense in both destroying items once used, and keeping them back; on the one hand, keeping various items behind may help if it's a ritual you'll need to perform agin in the future, for instance something to strengthen yourself, or give yourself some asset, be it information, emotion, some physical attribute, etc, then you'd want to use the same things each time, with the things gaining more magical power each time.. Of course, destroying everything you use in each working (apart from the ritualistic items themselves) could serve well to help you forget the working - however I'm not sure how important total erasure of the event is to the effectiveness.. Looking back over that, I'm leaning towards keeping some parts back each time, but that's probally from the perspective of doing spells on yourself, not others - if you were doing a working on someone else, I can't see why you'd want to keep anything from it (Possibly my lack of experience talking there) On that topic, what do you do with the personal items once you're done with them? I guess returning them to their owner could have a strong impact, depending on what the ritual was about.. Saying things out loud does make a lot of sense, again it's the crossover of physical and mental, talking out loud gets the words literally out of your head, and also helps release them 'into the wild'. Nice innovation with the ink, I've not thought about doing anything like that before, I can see how it provides a real intimacy to whatever it is you're doing, and spreads a part of you into the working. I lean towards pagan/wiccan beliefs, too, so a lot of what you do makes sense to me (Sorry, seem to be repeating myself as feared..) To contradict myself from earlier, smoking a cigarette just before enacting the ritual proper seems like a good idea; it gives a reason to pause and think, center a little, and do a little planning. Totally understand about balance, and atmosphere; it wouldn't be a ritual if you didn't have a set of rules, however loose or changeable they may be. It also helps your subconscious, you kinda say 'Ok, brain, I'm getting the candles out, get yourself ready.' (mmm... maybe not, but you get what I'm trying to say, Ja?) "(see: *****)"? think you missed a link there, hun ;) I've used sigils a lot in the past, though nothing as elaborate as elvi's from chaosmagic.com (appears to have a few broken images and links around the sigils section, which is unfortunate) I generally just write a word or sentence out in wobbly, twisted and generally interlacing letters, until it's impossible to make out anything beyond "Oh, I think that's a 'g' there", then I'll leave it for a while - depends on how easily I forget which sigil is which, and then take some time to concetrate on it, and as far as after that goes, sometimes I'll throw it away, but more often, I'll just leave it where it is, and eventually lose track of it's whereabouts. I make a point of making sigils fairly generic, as I tend to stumble across them in books, random sheets of paper left lying about, etc, and I'll take some time to stare at it, having completely forgotten not only what the sigil meant, but when I did it, in the hope that it'll do some good for me again. I'd like to play with some other sigilsation routines, for instance using the same technique as I do usually, but with pictures instead of letters, and so on. As far as enveloping the psyche of the person you're targetting (or just building a mental image of them).. yeah, again, visualisation works for me, I tend to visualise a lot of things on a daily basis, not as part of an 'official' ritual, but just as habit, whether it's replaying conversations, or inventing new conversations, with real or fictional people.. you can probally tell by my writing style that words are my main focus of thought, so everything I do tends to be wrapped around that medium, from sigils to visualisation, to more basic things that make up my personality, like the way I interact with people. One thing I haven't played with is using any kind of spiritual agents, be it deities, servitors, or spirits (I know servitors are somewhat different) I usually leave it down to my subconscious, however as I said, I'm well out of practice (the last ritual I did beyond casual sigilisation was at least 4 years ago) so perhaps using the kind of visualisation you're talking about re Nobody may work well for me. Indeed, there's never a way to absolutely prove that a ritual worked, and that it wouldn't have been so anyway, my view is that either way you got what you wanted, and if ritual played a part, so much the better, and if not, no matter, ritual helps you focus on what you want, which is not a pointless excercise in itself. Interesting what you say about Tarot, Linds keeps promising to buy me a deck (apparently it's not good to buy your own) so I'll keep you posted of my experiences if that ever comes to fruition, Linds has certainly had a lot of positive results with Tarot, as have a few of our friends. Again, understand about cutting, I used to for so many reasons I could write a novel, but I understand the centering properties, and the immense amount of energy it creates, also the altered state of consciousness; I can honestly say that, at the time, it was the biggest high I've ever experienced, and often thought of turning that power to ritual, but again, at that particular time, I was in no state to be messing around in my brain, and thankfully was still mentally coherent enough to realise this. As for the laughter thing, I just can't force it upon myself, which has been a major stumbling block in the past - I can see the importance of breaking the mental state, providing a nice clean finish so as to avoid things hanging around, but could never bring myself to laugh it all off, I've just relied on a short closing speech to anything that's decided to help me, and my own defences (though looking back through my (stoner) memory, I think I've cut at the end in the past too.. the time of my life I'm refering to is when I was just beginning to decide whether satanism was for me, or something else, my memory of that whole period is a little blurry and incoherent, there's a few bits that stick out, but beyond that it's all either locked away in my subconscious, or truly forgotten, either way, it doesn't do to dwell.. (if you're feeling pokey, poke at my very early blathes: life sorry and insane to name a few of my awfull poems *grin*...) Yeah, Things are something I actually lack, when I did do rituals, I had a blue glass bowl which I burnt things in - candles, paper, etc, also I poured wax onto my hands and used the bowl to catch any drips (though once I knocked the whole damn thing over and got wax everywhere.. d'oh.) there's also a small resin incense holder in the shape of a skull, which provided a good focal point, but apart from those, there wasn't really anything else (oh yeah, scalpel blades, but that's a different story, and one that I'm not even sure is related (as I said, my memory's pretty hazy)) and again, as I said, I've only done casual visualisation and sigils recently.. Very interesting about the Trinkets, I once made a necklace for a friend, cut the wood, drilled a hole for the string, and drew and painted a sigil on it for his personal betterment, so I suppose that's a similar thing. And yes, everything is a ritual, walking to work, having sex, smoking a cigarette; everyone has their personal style that they've adapted to get the most from the experience. One of the things that the Satanic bible taught me very early on is that it's not the actual specifics of the ritual, but the fact that it's ritualised that's more important. Like you, I'd like to write more but am pretty exhausted, I'm not sure how useful you'll find this reply - a lot of it has been me reflecting on myself, which taken out of context may seem irrelevent at places (probally that's just my apologetic side getting the better of me - I never feel I've done the best I could, and hence apologise) Many thanks for providing exactly what I wanted. :) (oh and btw, this is unedited, so if it suddenly stops making sense, slap me soon and I'll go over it again) 031017 ... misstree yay! i wasn't sure if i was being very coherent, i tried to edit and such quite a few times but everything was still all rambly and such, and i am often noted to have strange modes of expression, especially regarding subjects that get a little nonlinear... your own response was quite coherent, 'specially since i remember from the editing mostly what i said and in what order, so it had almost the flow of a time-delayed conversation. gonna poke at your brain on a few things, the similarities and differences are really neato, note a few things, go into more detail on a few things, etc., but that'll be this weekend sometime or maybe monday if this weekend is as crazy as it promises to be (when will life leave me alone and let me SLEEP?). i've also got another line of probing i want to get into, but i'm not sure if it's fruited yet and i'm not sure if i want to give it a chance to fruit... i'm just not sure. i'll get into it later... meantime poke your nose over at adultery, if you ignore the societal training that sex is a horrible dirty thing that you should only do with someone you love, the meat of the next inquiry can be found in there somewhere... or the bloom of it... very much not sure... anyhow, yay! and later... 031017 ... User24 fyi, I tend to read what you've said, ponder for a day or so, then copy and paste your writings into the add word page, responding to and deleting each of your paragraphs as I re-read them. if I can be bothered, I'll then go over the whole of my response, editing and adding further ponderings based on the now fresh in my mind wider context of the conversation. by the way, what time was it when you wrote that (it was about half eleven PM when I wrote that) I was just wondering what time of day we tend to co-incide? look forward to reading you later (no real need to say that, of course, it should be obvious by now.. :) 031017 ... misstree 'round 5:30 hereabouts, i think, somewhere between there and 5... call it 5:23 and keep the change? ya, you're the reason i started the what_time_zone_are_you_in blathe. *grin* 031017 ... Dafremen 1. I could really use some help with an ASP/MySQL project. They are both new to me and ANY assistance would REALLY be appreciated. If you are willing to help would you email me? (Most of the coding is done.) 2. Would you like to get together for a game of Quake2? You'd be the first blatherer I've ever been in the game with. Let me know. I usually play at: 166.70.135.171:27910 031017 ... realistic optimist quake 2?! doesn't anyone play quake3? (other than me of course) or perhaps enemy territory? 031017 ... realistic optimist by the way, user 24, i've had a thought i'd like to share with you. i think i have figured out what chance is. or at least i have figured it out in my own mind. :) it seems to me that chance is free will, as seen through the eyes of Other. Meaning that it is not predictable to you are anyone because it is free will, and that person themselves, traversing the same experiences might not react the same way. and that has to do with the whims of free will. man acts irrationally but understands reason. this juxtaposition makes his behavior unpredictable to an outsider using either because there is no telling how much of one or the other the person will use when making a decision. will they just react? will they remember to think first? what thoughts will they reference? will they change their mind just based on a whim? you see, i am thoroufhly unconvinced that a person can "know everything there is to know about a person" and even if they could, that this would lead to predictability, even considering the loose definition you gave it of knowing everything and its origin and relation. i truly believe that free will puts the human choice out of this matrix. anyway, i thought i would share this thought i had with you. perhaps you will find it interesting. :) 031018 ... realistic optimist i meant to say that i believed that there were parts of a person's soul which remain unknown to the universe at hand, much less another person, however i forgot the apostrophe t. 031018 ... User24 realistic optimist; your mind is all that actually exists, no need to figure it out elsewhere. I am a figment of my own imagination. (ok, that was just me being deliberately paradoxical, but you get the idea..:) do we have free will? aren't our actions rather reactions? do we choose to get out of bed, or do we simply need to get up? how many times have you stopped and wondered exactly what you want - how can we say we have control over our actions, if we don't even know what drives us? If there was an element of chance involved, we'd surely end up making random choices about things, but we don't - we have set behaivioural patterns, for instance, I don't like fried mushrooms, now that's not a choice of mine, it simply is - if there is a random factor, I could suddenly switch my preferences without even knowing, also, if our personality is to some degree random, then why do we bother forming habits, surely our brain would know that everything is subject to change, and therefore not bother creating schemas and habits. I'm not saying it's possible to know everything about someone, just that theoretically, if you did, you'd be able to predict their actions. However, the omission of the tiniest detail (what flavour ice cream their grandmother first tasted, or something equally remotely related, the positioning of the stars, when their great great great grandfather was born, etc) could potentially have massive impact further down the line, therefore it is practically impossible, but I still maintain it is theoretically possible. If chance exists, then I find it more likely that free will is but one side of chance, than the entire concept itself; however, you understand how the exterior universe can act as a complex system, why not turn the focus internally as well - our emotions and etc are part of the same compex system, governed by it's rules, playing to it's tune. Indeed, the same person, experiencing the same direct input will not usually respond in the same way, but if -everything- about the universe, including time, parrellel dimensions if they exist, etc, was the same, then there would be no option but to react in the same way. Perhaps this is my failing, but I do not see how, given the same stimulus, anything can fail to produce a predictable result - there are plenty of examples of randomness, but none are inexplicable. Either way, I agree that it's not physically possible to predict human behaiviour to the degree I'm talking about, but conceptually it's important to try to discern whether we are in control of our destiny or not. 031018 ... misstree tomorrow, i promise, when i need to avoid cleaning my room, you have a big ol' verbal poop coming to sit in the lovely blue, it's up there, but i don't have time to sit down and squeeze it out. yep. 031018 ... User24 :) 031019 ... misstree okay, finally getting around to it... i do much the same thing with pasting things into wordpad and having them next to eachother, so if this seems disjointed, well, deal. :P the 24-48 hours is usually because there is something that needs addressing (a missing journal that's proving difficult to recover, for example), or a specific increasing need for centering myself. it's a thought that pops into my head that i should do ritual, much like someone saying to themselves, i should bake apple pie soon. that would be nice. as far as how long it takes so see results, it depends on if i'm working with an either/or situation (journal ownership), a continuous process (severing attachments), or information gathering, which either yeilds immediate results (the little birdie tells me) or i get information that takes a bit of time to become clear in its importance (tarot readings). as a side note, i've found that it's useful to write down the results of tarot readings either before the cards are cleared or right after, both to get a solid mental handle on the interpretation and to be able to refer back to it later. i occasionaly save horoscopes in the same way, if they strike me... somewhere else i may babble about this weeks, it had me freaked as hell. anyhow. the cigarettes work well for me because they're both very mundane, so they make a distinction between mundane and ritualistic, and because they're something to busy the mind a little bit, keep it flowing smoothly instead of dancing about and obsessing about whether i'm forgetting anything or what i'm trying to do or whatnot. very nice example with the toy with the mechanism, and his comment afterwards makes me grin. i've only done formal group rituals, marriage and seasonal things and such for the most part, mind telling me some observations on group workings? i think that erasure of the event is important in keeping the forebrain from obsessing about it, but what needs to be done to eliminate that varies. some rituals end with things that i keep very close and noticible (a scar, a modification on jewelry), especially if i'm trying for a continuous change. i actually do still have a few of the foci from works that i've done to affect others, almost as little mementos of them, because if i care enough about someone to do a work focused on them, well, yeah. i most often as part of the work end up giving them the foci, though. one other thing that i like about talking to myself is it's a good way to organize thoughts, to really lay everything out in line and say "here's what i got, here's what i want," instead of them dancing and running around like toddlers. thanky re the ink, i think that was also partially just a way of letting go of large chunks of past that were clinging inappropriately, destroying things that were redundent or had overstayed their welcome to give me something new. oh ya. precisely with the second cigarette comment. :P and precisely with the balance and atmosphere while i'm at it. yeah,about that missed link... did it twice... i know i've blathed about nobody before, but i often write on a laptop too decrepit and ornery (named by previous owner Vivian for the character in young_ones) for a net connection. so, couldn't try to find it, had such a hassle trying to post what i'd written that i forgot about it. so, sure, i'll talk about Nobody for a minute. but, after writing it, i'm putting it on the nobody page. it's an interesting story (to me anyhow), and i tell it as such, and it just feels like it should be there rather than here. i've had him a long time, he deserves it. okay. that was a bit more than i expected to write, and a lot is left out, but that's okay. it was enough to put a smile on my face and feel as if i had collected enough of his essence that a ghost of it (a ghost of a ghoul?) exists. nodnod on the sigils. pictures does sound interesting. i doodle a lot, but i haven't been able to get that to translate very well. it's done well for my tattoos, though, as my first one has much doodle influence as well as quite a few symbols, and my next one is spawning from a doodle as well. yay! interesting on the visualization, i don't think i tend to do that as often, i tend to more ramble to myself than anything. as far as spirits, dear gawd you've gotten the writer bug in me going crazy and there's so much i want to write on... i've "experienced" everything from ghosts to resident spirits of places, i've worked with everything from minor energy-formed sparrows to a Something that i won't talk about much other than to say that there are nasty things out there, be careful to clear your ritual before you sleep, and be careful about telling things they can stay under certain conditions. i've liked servitors in the past, it's kind of like partitioning a part of your brain to do the work for you, and you can resume them later a bit easier, many times. plus, they come in all shapes and sizes... there's even a shared one, i believe the name is fometicus but i may be spelling the word wrong, he's a time servitor that someone created, and it's shared to increase the amount of energy both in and out. i'll try to find a link to it later. i personally think that the "not buying your own deck" thing is crap. i think that you should have imagery that is evocative to you, and unless you pick it out and the other person buys it the chances are slim, and there's a feeling like bringing a puppy home from the pound when i bring home a deck. i do recommend poking at it, especially because i'm selfish and i want to poke your brain about it. :) if you have trouble laughing, i've always found that just faking it, and not caring what you sound like, just playing with the different kind of laughs, often turns into genuine laughter, or at least a hearty grin. i would say it's also possible that the quick exhalations of breath may be useful for grounding oneself, kind of breaking up the tension. if it's not what works for you then by all means, tho, as that's pretty much the point. :) and again i damn my inability to poke at the net! re Things, i am almost psychotic in my pack ratting habits. perhaps i'll attempt to take a pciture that captures teh heart of my decorating styles; i smear the walls with pretty shiny things that make me happy, i have them stuck in every nook and cranny, and most of them are sentimental to boot. many of those things also have properties that make them Things. so i'm heavier into Things than just about anyone i know, but that's what floats my boat. *shrugsmile* indeed, that would be so similar to being a Trinket that one might as well call it a Trinket... oh look! i just did! *grin* heh... re this: "One of the things that the Satanic bible taught me very early on is that it's not the actual specifics of the ritual, but the fact that it's ritualised that's more important," i picked that habit up strongest from liking the idea but not the practice behind books on wicca, and my flavorite author ever, steven_brust 's books. heh. someday, in a a galaxy far far away, i'll go into the difference between sorcery and witchcraft in his books. and forgive me if i wag my finger at you momentarily for apologizing so much. you owe me nothing, so everything you give me is more than i had, don't apologize that it isn't more than it is. if you stomp on my toes and poke out my eyes, you can apologize. if you call me an obsequitous toad not worthy of sucking the booger off your pinkie, you can apologize. but don't apologize unless it's an emergency. :P anyhow, i need to rest my brain, ta for now. apologies if i'm increasingly distracted from this thread in the future; lots of things going on, both in the brain and in the life, and i make no promises that i will in any way act like a human being at any given point between now and november third. so there. did want to poke at you about one thing; any thoughts or opinoins on either divinities or concepts thereof, or ecstatic states? cheers! 031019 ... User24 cool, lots coming soon, esp. re group rituals; I've had a few interesting experiences (well, vaguely interesting at least :) ) If it's not here by midnight tonight (~6 by your time) then it'll probally have to wait until wednesday (meeting parents on tuesday evening) and thanks for wagging your finger, there's a few personality traits that I'd like to rid myself of, and that's certainly one of them.. which reminds me, don't I still owe you a more detailed discourse on meta-programming? see you later, :) 031020 ... User24 massive upheaval at work, almost resigned, you'll have to wait a few days more, m'dear. (see, I didn't apologise.. getting better..) :P 031022 ... User24 disjointed shimshjointed; we always seem to say to each other that "oh, it's not perfect but you're going to have to deal with it, sorry" but we always understand each other almost perfectly.. anyway, *grin*; Gotcha re 24-48 hours, a similar thing to saying, "I should really tidy this room up soon", the thought is in your head, and depending on the urgency, you'll act on it sometime during that period. makes sense. understand about the time until results are seen, again, it comes down to the function and definition of 'ritual'; I was thinking of a full blown, environment altering event, but as you say, simply taking some time out to center and think is a ritual, with near enough instant results, whereas (like you say) something that involves changing the exterior world will obviously take longer. Damn you!; now I -really- want to start playing with Tarot, I think the main reason I've not done any rituals of late is because of my attitude towards what defines a ritual; I've had no need to physically alter the environment around me, but getting information, clearing my head, (*cough* also adjusting other people's attitudes *cough*), etc is constantly an objective - I just (stupidly) never considered ritual as a solution. Due to the 'upheaval' you know about (it's been going on to some degree for at least a year), I think now is an ideal time (for me) to start organising my brain, something I've not really done before (luckily as you know I'm fairly logical, so it's not bothered me before), so I can see the value in keeping logs of what you did, why and when, and what the results were. well, the ritual we did with the toy was very haphazardly done, and with very little planning or structure (amazing it worked, really) me, Linds and Cat were in my bedroom, talking about *****, and everything that was wrong with him (he was going a bit off the wall, we wanted him to slow down a bit and think before he did anything drastic) and, I can't remember how the topic came up, or who suggested it, but we said we should do a working on him - Cat is loosely Pagan, ditto Linds but less so, and well, I'm me (at the time I was just getting 'out' of Satanism, and 'into' Chaos (terrible expression, makes it sound like choosing a fashion, but you understand, I'm sure.) So we cobbled together a candle, a chain, the blue glass dish I mentioned earlier, and set about the room trying to find something to use as a representation of *****, settling for the Toy, Cat called the corners, we entered the circle, lit the candles, etc, now my memory is hazy, but in approximate order, we cut the Toy open, exposing the mechanism, and each stabbed it with a knife, saying which part of ***** we were removing, then we took the mechanism out, bound the toy back together with the chain, and sealed it with wax. So that's as detailed a description as I can remember of that one (btw, afterwards I think Cat took the Toy and mechanism home with her and I think she threw the mechanism in a dogshit bin (somehow appropriate) I've no idea where the Toy went.) I was suprised it actually worked, for me, it seemed a little too slapdash, also, and this comes more from another experience, I found that unless everyone has the same beleifs, it's very hard to do a multi-paradigm ritual, I once did a group ritual with me, Linds, Hellen (Linds' sister) and Trev (Hellen's fianceé (now split up) anyway!) Hellen was leading it, and I found the whole thing far too formal and serious, she drew the circle with a wand, drew a door in it so that we could enter, closed the door afterwards, etc, the candles were all the right colours for all the right positions, etc. Anyway, I felt pretty uncomfortable as I actually had no idea if I was supposed to stand in a certain way or whatever. Despite that though, I did feel very odd afterwards in a spiritual sense, apparently my third eye had opened too much. I know I sound quite scathing of it all, but I just feel that while things like Chakras, Guardians, lalala are all well and good, they only work for me if everyone understands that they are inventions of the conscious mind to rationalise the unimaginable; an aid to visualisation, nothing more. As I said earlier, I'll believe that you believe something until I can dis-prove it (which is impossible) For instance, Auras, now I've never seen fuzzy hazes of colour around someone's head, but I do experienced different emotions when I'm around different people, and if my brain chooses to associate those emotions with colours to help categorise, identify and better understand then fine, but I know that I won't ever actually -see- an aura with my eyes, though I may 'see' one with my mind. So yeah, group rituals, I think that for me, ritual is (was) a time when I am honest with myself, and explore my psyche, and that's hard to do when around others (esp. others with different beliefs) though I think mutli-belief group rituals would work on a much larger scale, with 10+ people, that way you have enough 'personal space' to quietly do your own thing, without everyone watching you. It might be interesting to see how doing group rituals skyclad would work; you've already broken down the physical barrier between the participants, perhaps then the mental differences would be easier to placate. (placate is the wrong word, but I know you understand. Maybe you won't read this at all if I edit properly.) Yup, agree that it's important to keep your conscious mind from getting stuck going over a ritual, worrying about things you may have done wrong yada yada, it's done, and if it works, so much the better, and worrying isn't going to change or solve anything, though a 'constant improvement' policy is of course the best approach to take, hence the logic in keeping logs. And indeed, the way to 'close' a ritual will differ each time, but it is the hardest part, for me anyway. I agree conceptually with what Pete Carrol said about laughter; convince yourself that what you've just done was all a bit childish and silly, and you'll stop worrying about it, but as I said, practially, can't house those two very different opinions on ritual in my mind; to ridicule ones own beliefs seems counter-intuitive. Which, incidently, is why I liked something you said earlier about simply getting on with mundane things afterwards; not dwelling on it. yeah, talking helps, as a programmer I find that simply explaining the problem to a friend will often magically reveal the solution; when you talk, especially to people uninvolved with the subject, you force yourself to explain it simply; thereby arranging your own thoughts outside of their normal pattern, and seeing things from a different perspective. fair enough about splitting off to another page for nobody. I'll write on there later (it's marked ;) yeah, I was going to ask you about tatoos, why do you like them? I haven't got any yet, but I do want to, in fact, I'd planned a chaos star on my left or right shoulder for a while now, do you think they're just another form of self expression, or is there some way they fit into your beliefs more seperately then, say, getting some new jewellery (bearing in mind that my jewellery is not a pick and mix affair, but permanently attached, I never remove anything once I've worn it for a month or so. (because I have a personal connection and story behind every piece I wear, and they're all so important I don't feel it's right to take any off (in fact there's that piece of string round my neck I actually can't take off without destroying.)) so servitors are (kinda) like self induced but controlled multiple personality disorder? Or am I missing the larger picture? I can see what you mean re: Tarot, but Linds would be able to pick something that I was able to connect to (she has a knack for knowing what I like), I'd rather get my first deck as a gift, then go on to expand the collection myself if I need to (but believe me, I'll be dropping hints about it; I'm just as eager to be poked at as you are to poke :) ha, I know exactly what you mean re: excessive decoration, my wall is literally covered with random magazine clippings (from a headline reading "Help, I'm trapped in a shed" to a cool tattoo flash of an alien dude (I'm planning on getting a digital video camera soon, so maybe you'll get to see it)) And yes, I hoard sentimental things, like a carved wooden lizard named 'sage', some oil paintings from my Gran's house, a Bodhran from Ireland.. yes yes, all sorts of quirky crap liters our flat :) I think I'm getting a clearer picture of your Things; Things that help break the barrier between conscious and subconscious due to a previously made link. Although I do have a massive amount of ornaments, etc, there are suprisingly few that I wouldn't sell if I needed to, (assuming anyone would buy them) my Gran's silver (whatever it is) would be one... that picture of Gran's, too, um.. oh, there's a couple more I'm sure, plus all the silly little stuff that I'm currently using, like my baccy tin, my new combats, blah, but they don't count.. anyway, far too much pointless rambling there, I think I get the idea. (user24 makes mental note to read both ayn rand and stephen brust) I'll get on to divinities and ecstatic states tomorrow, as it's half two AM, and I want to smoke before I go to bed. Don't worry about not speedily replying, it'll give me a chance to put some of the theories discussed over the last, what, month? into practice. oh, by the way, November 3rd=end of all this Halloween stuff for you, right? and how did the discordian meetup go, or hasn't it yet? (as usual, this is pretty much unedited, but I think we can both live with that by now :) Take care, . 031023 ... User24 hang on, "hasn't it yet"? looking back that was on the 9th! duh. 031025 ... User24 re-reading my post above, I now realise I forgot to answer your questions! ok.. hmm.. divinities... I'm not sure really, I mean, earlier I talked about everything as a construction of the imagination as an aid to subconscious access, but now I'm not sure; you could easily say that the forces behind the world are divine in some way, It depends on your definition of divine, and whether there's a conscious mind behind it all, again, it's hard to say, and depends on the definition of consciousness.. er... right.. divine.. god this is actually hard. I get the feeling world will explode if I try to define this. Never mind, I can blame you. :) argh! my brain is screaming at me "but divine is just a concept invented by humans to explain things they don't understand; it's just a way of rationalising it; taking the inexplicable and creating an explanation to satify their inborn desire and suprising ability to categorise and classify things" but then, there's also the human side of me (I feel like spock sometimes, you know.) that's saying "NOoOoOoOoOoO!" and I don't really know why.. normally I'd be quite happy with the logical explanation, but for some reason (perhaps it's just today) I don't want to beleive it, it's perfectly possible that, for instance, the house_elves do exist in some, they are manifestation of as yet unseen (and therefore unexplained and mysterious) parts of this chaotic system, going on to my favourite topic of the moment, fractals, things which may be seen as divine are like a pattern you can't yet see because you haven't zoomed far enough into the system yet.. (download a program called fractint to better understand what I'm talking about here) ...like a hidden melody. so right, are divine things simply things we don't understand yet.. if so I'm afraid I'm can't really comment on them; they are so far out of reality even I can't imagine their attributes, and therefore am unable to dissect their properties, explain and theorise on their nature and purpose.. I can however glimpse at the hidden strange attractors; the things beyond the already hidden reasons behind the behaiviour of our universe, from the interweaveing of weather patterns affecting society and life across the animal and plant kingdoms, to the interaction between planets, for instance, the destruction of a star billions of light years away has a minute effect, unnoticeable but definate on the tourism industry at our beaches; the explosion of the star causes energy to ripple outwards, eventually having a tiny pull or push on our moon, which affects the tides, which therefore affects tourism; which in turn affects the people in those areas, and the landscape.. ladida etc etc... (quite how I got on to chaos theory from the nature of divinity, I'm not sure, but I'm sure it all made sense at the time..) Once again.. divinity.. no, sorry, totally lost where I was.. hang on.. *scrolls upwards* ah right, yeah my point was that I can understand all those type of things, but there are still things that have no apparent cause.. or are there? Is there nothing beyond all the obvious physical interaction between elements? there must be particles as yet undiscovered, which, for instance, explain how magic works; you let your subconscious handle those parts, in the same way that your subconscious deals with fighting disease, supplying energy to the body, etc.. I may have said it before, but it's one of my favourite sayings; Even a top scientist in disease and virology will still get a common cold, even though he knows exactly how to fight it. You can of course apply this maxim to any situation, simply knowing how a system works does not mean you can affect it; meterologists (spelled totally incorrectly) can't change the weather, though they know how weather changes, etc.. So given the existence of these particles of unknown properties, what would that mean? As far as I can see, nothing beyond that our knowledge is still limited; that science has not yet conquored our concept of divinity. However, it's getting closer, explaining Thor's Hammer years ago, etc. (anyway, enough on how science and technology are evil, I'll put meself out of a job..) pausing on divinity for a while and moving on to consciousness; what defines our lives? I've heard it described as the accumulation and dispersal of information over time (in fact looking that up, it was toxic_kisses on ' silicon ') which is a good way of defining the process of life, but not the reasoning; perhaps there is no reason, perhaps the reason is one of those divine things that we just can't explain or understand yet, either due to our only partially developed science or our only partially developed mental evolution.. again, this is my logical side talking, but I can't put into words, or justify my desire to believe in divinities.. Ok, to discuss consciousness in relation to ecstatic states, I need to define it, literally, it is our awareness of reality, via all the senses we have, understanding that as soon as the input is recieved, we twist it to fit into our mind's understanding of it, but what is the true nature of reality? Sorry, this really is disjointed.. I've got no explanations; I can't have any, they are beyond me. More simply; I just don't know! Sorry, it's 5AM (unless you count the fact that it's Daylight Saving Hours, and therefore only 4AM, but still!) and this, to coin a phrase you used earlier, is already a novel. (I'm sure we've both broken the record for longest blathes ever, -grin-!) I'll post on ecstatic states soon :) 031025 ... User24 should have done some more editing on that one; "even I can't imagine"="I can't even imagine" oops! 031025 ... bleh.. me. ecstatic states coming a little later than planned (perhaps tonight). 031027 ... misstree take your time, i've got lots to chew on so far and drooling for the next bit but it'll take me a while to have the time to sit down and spew, so, yeah. 031027 ... User24 ok, finally, lunch break, ecstatic states.. hang on, let me grab something to eat first (no distractions; it's the new year, and a new, less laxy me. (laxiness is evil, you see)) ok.. (disclaimer: any reference to 'ecstacy' is meant in the literal sense, not the drug, unless otherwise stated Also, I obviously can't comment on anyone's interpretation of ecstatic states, and therefore the following is based on subjective experience, not objective reasoning.) what defines an ecstatic state? How do ecstatic states affect us, and how can we use these states to our advantage, or avoid their disadvantages? an ecstatic state is usually associated with positive emotions; joy, happiness, etc, however it's not simply an emotion, but rather a meeting of several emotions, you could define ecstacy as an entirely new emotion, a 'buzz', you can identify similarities with other, less intense emotions, but the defining factor in an ecstatic state is it's intensity, in fact, these states can be so intense they are like all emotions mixed together, and amplified. As said, usually an ecstatic state is a 'happy' experience, however, it is also possible to feel the same intensity of emotion in a more directed way; I always find that positive emotions are vague passing feelings, whereas negative emotions tend to be more focused and clearly defined, thus, I can say that for me, negative ecstacy can exist. The effects of ecstacy on our normal functioning can be subtle or overwhelming, depending on the intensity of the state; Sometimes we feel a low buzz of energy all day, and sometimes it peaks into short, highly charged bursts. Focusing on positive emotions, the 'lifting' buzz we feel affects the way we behave, the way we come across to other people; our entire personality is affected, from our choice of words, to the way we sit or stand, even to the decisions we make; if we're feeling happier, perhaps we'll feel less inhibited, and take more risks, the feeling that 'nothing can go wrong today' can make us lose grip of reality. However, the changes to ourselves due to the ecstatic state, will of course affect our immediate environment, so perhaps the state is brought on by an 'eddie' of energy in the surrounding area.. I think Dr Blather was asked by "lil wild 1" about latent energy in inanimate objects over at ask_dr_blather, perhaps ecstatic states are caused by a similar process. Indeed, it could well be that the feeling that 'nothing can go wrong' will eminate from us, making that notion true, on the other hand, the feeling may be caused by some kind of psychic connection to our surroundings, that informs us that nothing will go wrong. Getting back to the way these states affect us and our environment, I can see no reason why emotions should not be ruled by the same laws of chaos, and therefore be bestowed with the same powers and potential to affect other entities. During an ecstatic state of high intensity, we are subjected to a different kind of consciousness; similar to drug taking, but of course perfectly attainable through concentration and internal means. A consciousness that blinds our personality, and acts and re-acts on some other form of reasoning to the one we normally use - we 'aren't thinking straight' when in an ecstatic state, whether positive or negative. This blinding of our reasoning allows us to achieve more, during such a state, we can break physical barriers, not because we were not capable of breaking them prior to entering an ecstatic state, but rather because we didn't think we were capable of breaking them - it switches off the habits and pre-conceptions about ourselves, we can feel as though we can do anything, which probally is true, it's just that we need to turn off the voice in our head that tells us that "it's impossible". This tells us quite a lot about the way the mind works; in science, you discover how things work, not by watching them working, but by watching them doing abnormal things; whay happens when the normal system collapses? We can use ecstatic states to exceed ourselves, to push the envelope out and expand our capabilities, however, the trouble comes when your achievements surpass your expectations -and- when in your 'normal' state, you expect the same to be possible. The same is true vice versa; as I said, during an ecstatic state, you're 'not thinking properly' however you will need to juggle the two opposing states; keep yourself from getting too carried away during ecstacy, and keep yourself from believing that you are capable of the same feats while not in ecstacy. As usual when playing with your mind, you need to be very sure of your own personal reality, and keep control of those things that you use to enhance that reality - you may enjoy being able to acheive more during ecstacy, but remember that the reason you're in ecstacy is to satisfy your non-ecstatic persona- you can't stay in ecstacy forever, it will literally wear your mind out. So, enough with the warnings, here's how I acheive ecstatic states, I find that I can simply conjure any emotion I feel like (I have an unusual amount of control over my self; I can make an itch go away by thinking, and as I've said earlier, I can control my heartbeat (and probally stop it if I thought about it long enough (which I don't really want to) ANYWAY! (phew [grin] )) Yeah, I find a short calming session, as descibed by a brief pseudonym of mine, 'chaotica' at : stoic : is a very useful little excercise to use before doing anything to do with changing myself, also, I've used The Dot in the past. The Dot is a black circle on a totally white background, similar to the japanese flag, but in black. Visualise it in you mind, empty your mind of words, songs, and any images, and close your eyes (a quiet place is best for this) now see white. That's really the only way I put it, make everything you can see, in 360 degrees totally blank, brilliant white, and in front of you, perfectly still, is a black dot, roughly 3 inches across. The purer you can get your vision of it the stronger it is; The Dot fills me with strength, ah... it's hard to explain, but when I creaet the Dot, it puts me into a mild ecstatic state, energy and power, obviously the more I create it, the stronger it gets.. I think the Dot is probably the closest thing I have to a Thing (though it's not physical, but who cares?) I also find music has produce similar effects; I actually can't listen 4 horsemen by metallica without stopping doing whatever I'm doing and just listening.. :) happy halloween 031031 ... Doar jesus, mary and the donkey that dropped dead of ecstastic statements... good job manipulator24 031031 ... misstree coming soon to a blather near you: tree actually gets around to a response!!! wow. yep, more here than i remember, and a few things i want to go into in depth, like i said we've been practicing patience but now is not a drill... meantime, for some hedonism rants check out innerviews_misstree_hyper_hedonist and innerviews_misstree_ripples 031107 ... User24 see finding_words. I will always respond. This is just a phase, it will pass. Blather has become my life, it is an outlet for my thoughts. But it distracts me too much. I need to think about things and then I will write about them. If you (as in blatherskites generally) interest me, I will interest you. I have decided to stop blathering about irrelevancies. That's not to say I won't be here, just that idle chitchat may not be as forthcoming as it has been in the past. so.... that's the deal, blather. Just thought I'd let you know. On a different note, thankyou misstree, you interest me quite a lot. and on another note entirely, I love everyone on blather. sidenote: it's hard to write to people, much easier to write what I think without trying to dress it up, so if I sound callous, it's... well, mainly because I can't be bothered not to. Hope you all understand. :) 031108 ... u24 naturally, all that may change within the next 2 seconds. But right now, that's what I think. It's so hard to decide things, you know? Without factoring every single thing in, it's impossible to know anything, even internally; how can I trust myself? I don't even know who I am! What is the purpose of life? Even my own life.. where should I take it? Is there a destiny, or is it my choice? If it's my choice, is there a right and wrong answer, or do I decide for myself what's right or wrong.. I change my mind so much, what if I make the wrong decisions? Is making the wrong decision better than making no decision at all? For the moment, I hope it is. is feeling rather odd after watching matrix3 :) 031108 ... misstree write more soon. "trust thyself. ev'ry heart vibrates to that iron string." -r w emerson you are the closest to you godstate that you can possibly be at this moment. the next you will most likely be closer, though regressions happen. but you are the most perfected thing in your own universe, and thus every decision you make is the most right one you can. 031109 ... u24 thankyou, that's strangely comforting, and very wise. yes. thankyou. :) 031109 ... misstree okay, not sure how much i'm going to get through today, it's been a while and this bitch is SINGING RIGHT BEHIND ME and i want to kill her, but if i tell her one more time that she's disturbing me, it's going to be with a fucking icepick. but i've put this off much longer than i wanted to, and in the distinct proper frame of mind, and wanting to do anything but work. so, starting waaaaay back on 031023... re keeping a log of things, not only does it help organize thoughts and draw correlations, it prevents loose interpretations, and lets you look back to see how attitudes change or if there are things you'd forgotten about. the rit with the toy definitely sounds interesting, and i agree very much with the truly formal stuff. i need room to play and extrapolate, to fling metaphors like monkeys fling poo, and if people aren't in that headspace with me then we can meet in the middle, but with formalized stuff, they're stuck on a narrow path. doesn't blend well with my methods of just about anything. skyclad group ritual would probably come down to nothing more than how the brains involved react ot nudity, and if they were able to let go of it as a social taboo or not. okay, tattoos... personally, the one i have now is a nametag more than anything else, an expression of identity. there's a number of symbols worked in there, but most of them came about by chance and just happened to be stunningly appropriate; the 8 points was the only thing i was really working for. that tat also represents a very specific point in my life, which is part of why i asked my closest friends to help pay for it; so that their memories would be woven in there as well. also, the actual act of getting it, well, i'm a sensate, dear, and that's some damn strong sensation. i have the next one planned, kind of, finally... i'll toss a pic up of it at some point, it's more about design and movement and decorating the meat and telling the next part of the story than anything... but i have a very strange relationship with my meat, so in a way it's sending threads across that. i know this is really vague and meandering, but, yes, they have a lot of meaning for me besides just decoration, but trying to explain what gets hairy. :P servitors... two difficult questions in a row, neh? they're kinda like self-induced mpd, but they have, hrm, an independence to them... it's creating a separate personality and then completely severing it from the source... at least at the higher levels... there is still a connection, but it is no longer a part of the Self... looking at shared servitors like fometicus (sp?) brings this a little clearer... if ya ask a few more questions on it, i may be able to explain it more, but this is what i can spew right here and right now. yep, you've got the idea with Things... and one thing i constantly kick myself for is that they're all so damnably hard to part with, it restricts my freedom a little bit but if, for example, there were a fire, i'd miss my clothes and Nobody and my dragon, and the rest can rot... my clothes mainly because they're my skin... the other two because they're very much There... anyhow... On to the next bits, where you took the bait and jumped in the pit with the 50 foot crocodile twins... did quite well, too, especially as i asked those because i was sick of them chewing on me without respite... but here's my two cents, more just written free-standing than as actual response, because that's the way it should be.... divinity. i still don't quite know what i think about it, if what most people know as gods are just servitors on supersteroids, or if there is some sort of Overbeing, conscious or not, some sort of web of connection that surpasses all else and would qualify for it, or if servitors on supersteroids really do become a species worthy of the name "divinity," or if that which we call divinity is just a part of ourselves we normally tap into... but here's what i think... in questing_deep_into_the_grey_caves (tough titties if it doesn't link), i mentioned a dream that i had had, where the Interconnectedness of All Things was felt like a constant full-brain punch to the gut. there is Something that binds Everything; i just don't know what that Something really and truly is. let me pause there for a minute and talk about ecstatic states, because i want to be able to weave the two... over in adultery, i worked for a bit with pete carroll's alphabet_of_desire... if you want me to talk about that thing more after this, i'd be more than happy to, but i'd rather have the book at my side to do it... the alphabet has six basic emotions, each opposite another (sex-death, hate-love, fear-desire), hald solve (separating), half coagula (bringing together). each of these is subdivided into three forms of that emotion; the mercurial (transcendent, spiritual, above the mundane), the sulfuric (basic daily operating level), and the salt (thwarted, unfulfillable or turned on itself)... let's take that mercurial. again, i went into this on adultery, but that was written for me and i don't expect anyone else on the planet to follow me. but mercurial. this is the subset of whichever flavor that can be used to access ecstatic states. for death, it is a stillness much akin to zen meditation. for fear, it is utter terror (i think cthulean thoughts with that one). for hate, i think petey says it's blinding rage... i end up deviating a bit from petey's definitions on the coagula, and for that you *will* have to truck on over to adultery, because it took me forever and a day to even figure that shite out, and i'm moving right along. when the mercurial is used/invoked/experienced, i refer to the restulting state as an ecstatic one. the problem is, i'm not sure what exactly that means. in some flavors there are elements of losing one's Self, so that no concept of the Self's existence remains. in others, such as Play, it is being completely one's Self, feeling each sparkle simultaneously. in both forms, there is a lurking thought (or afterthought) that there is something Bigger... now, I have an ego the size of new jersey, and i am far and away the center of my little universe (though i think everyone at least should be). but there is a feeling, in these states, that there is something more, that... dear lord, my words are sputtering like they're out of gas, crap i need an infusion... so, went back and looked at your post on divinity again, and i think you probably understand, though neither of us has done much to strictly define it... you say fractals, i say The Dance, and we mean the same thing... and i don't think i have much hope of nailing down the whowhatwhywherewhen... but i know that i have, at least to some degree and on some occasions, dipped my finger into it, thrown thoughts like confetti into a, not a maelstrom, it is far too alien to have the familiarity of vortex... but i have looked into the metaphorical face of cthulu (sorry, old ones on the brain), it *is* eldritch and undescribable, it *is* the ecstacy of speaking to god, it *is* real and there and *something*, and it drives me batshit that i can't define what. just because thousands of years of scholarly work hasn't nailed it down, doesn't mean that i won't. okay, lots there, less than i thought there would be, and i don't have any more questions lined up right at this particular moment... except, hey, hah, tell me about meat, not the cow kind but the you kind, what is your relationship with your flesh like, do you separate it from brain, do you make sure it's mastered or leave it to its own devices, do you use it for any purposes congruent to discussions such as these? and i don't remember if i poked at you about afterlife, but if i haven't, serve me up a heaping spoonful of that too. (if i did, i think you had such similar thoughts to myself that it just kinda fell into the crumbpan part of my brain. anyhow, yep, i should either get some claims done or try to surreptitiously nap. until whenever, cheers! 031111 ... User24 Hello again! I'll respond properly later (within the week, if all goes to plan) but for the mo' I think I'm just going to rant a little, if that's ok. :) thanks for your various bits of advice, as I said, you sparked my interest again, and I've started 'getting back into it' a lot of the discussion so far has helped me define my beliefs more clearly, and also therefore my ritual(s) and.. yeah. (!) So, I've got a 2ftx1ft wooden box ~5in deep, with a nice celtic knot carved into the lid, in that, I keep a handmade (not by me) leatherbound book, again with a celtic design, this time stamped into the leather. I write various pieces of advice from varying sources in it (in a secret code of mine (yup, User24 never really did grow up -grin- )), and that's really about it as far as tools go.. there's also a glazed clay candle holder, but I'm not sure if I'm going to use that forever. Oh and also I've comandeered one of my knives.. a nice double edged fixed blade with a wooden handle and (brass?) guard and pommel. (see also: collection) The only things I've done so far (with this setup) are simple "Hi, just thought I'd drop by and catch up on old times" kinda things; nothing drastic. Another tricky part was deliberately 'getting in the mood' - gathering the energy to visualise properly takes me a while, I think in future I may have to take a day off work (any excuse, I know.) anyhow, as I said, that was just a little rant, oh.. nice meaty question (suprisingly, no pun intended) about my physical self.. I'll fill this little box with many words about that later. take care :) 031112 ... User24 boo! re formality: yep, exactly, I don't mind wearing a certain colour, doing it on a certain moon phase or whatever, but when you're looking at a fundamentalist 100% belief, everything-is-so-serious thing, there's no room for creativity. and it makes me feel awkward for not knowing all the secret rules. skyclad might help people feel less silly about waving wands in the air; they'd be stark bollock naked and as far as inhibitions go, they'd have more to worry about than waving wands (no pun or innuendo intended) and chanting silly incantations. anyway, I don't think it'd be my thing, I see ritual more as a framework for the mind to convince itself that it's not doing it (rationalisation) than anything else. tell me more about sending threads across your meat. you were just about to dive into that pandora's box and then you went and anyway'ed it all away :) May have said this before, but I'd like to get a tattoo done, I've designed a nice one, see http://cgi.project2501.plus.com/tat.gif for a wonky version of roughly what it'll look like. maybe. If/when I get it done, I'll tell you my thoughts on tattoos in general; I've no experience, hence can't make an opinion. ok, servitors, I think I've got the picture, just recently I've found myself visualising the different aspects of my personality as seperate entities, however sometimes it's hard to stop one of them taking over completely. For instance, at a really basic level, there's the part that beleives things, and the part that disagrees with things. Now, as both these sides are part of me, it's hard for me to know with side is telling me what I really feel about something; I can embrace or pick apart anything, the really tricky part is stopping those two sides continually bickering, inject some logic, and then monitor the two sides, making sure that neither is left out. Then, having listened to both sides, I make my mind up. Not sure if that really relates to servitors, but I think it was an interesting rant so there you go. yeah, getting attached to physical things is a big jump to make, for instance if I had, say.. and candle holder that I always used to burn a candle in, to read meaning into it, and the candle holder broke one day, you could really tie yourself in knots trying to work out if there was any meaning in that; in short, as soon as you start to animate otherwise normal things, the danger is that they start ruling you. But I don't think it's a problem, as long as you realise the tactics your brain uses to fool you, you can avoid it's... blah. getting metaphorical. you understand. ok, divinity. yes, I think there is an Overbeing, but not conscious in the that we understand consciousness; it may make decisions based on some external or internal factors, but I don't think it's some kind of superbeing. IMHO, it's certainly not three dimensional. For me, I rationalise it as the 'hidden patterns of chaos' the equations governing our fractal life (I love fractals, you may have noticed -grin-) but of course it may not be just a bunch of maths holding us together; the maths is the only way we as humans can see it (logically, at least) so that's the foundation level from which I start. Given that to me, it's, basically, romanticised mathematics, I think that we are a part of divinity, given that there are evident rules that cover everything from how we transport blood round our body, to how we behave in a more general, personal way, I think that we are already at one with this Overbeing (I'm stealing that word, by the way, hope you don't mind ;) The part I enjoy is branching out and watching the other parts of the Overbeing working it's magic in other areas of life that aren't so obvious to me. Or in simpler terms, yeah, we're part of Nature, and it's fun to watch Nature doing other bits and bobs. ( yes, I still haven't really got my teeth into (m)any of the blathes you've pointed me at, I will do, though, don't think I'm ignoring them. ) re alphabet_of_desire: like the idea of classifying emotional strength into those 3 areas, yes. Makes a lot of sense to me. very useful paradigm. agreed, it does usually seem that the ecstatic state is somehow.. 'bigger', 'better', 'etc' than normal existence, whether that's just becuase it's a refreshing break from reality as we know it, or whether it's due to something that truly is bigger or better than our preception of reality, I don't know. My gut instinct (which I hardly ever rely on or even refer to, so mark today in your diary) is that there is something more than life, yes, obviously more than getting up, going to work, eating, sleeping, etc, but beyond those self evident wastes of time, I think that there's something beyond emotion, logic, something that cannot be defined by us, as we simply have no grasp of it, is it solid? does it reside in some dimension where everything is green and box shaped? how can we know? whatever form it takes, if it takes one at all, oh blah blah sorry, right, how does this relate to ecstatic states, yeah, I think we... 'glimpse the higher purpose' during ecstactic moments. yeah. once again, agreed, it's bloody annoying that we can't define it, for without definition what are we to do but say, yeah, it exists, and it's great, but I can't tell you what it is. Ok. my meat. Well, my I usually refer to it as 'my physical self'; it's a part of me, but I am detached from it. I teach it how to do things (like type) and then I let an entirely different neural process handle the intricacies of moving my fingers around and monitoring the screen for typo's (I think I've used that metaphor before) Anyway, yeah, it's a vehicle for me to achieve things in. I'm frequently dissatisfied with it, it's imperfect, falling apart, barely held together, vulnerable to the slightest impact, etc, etc. Why are we so poorly designed? "Oh HI, God, how are you? I was just saying how you did a great job. Don't kill me." ahem again. so, my body, it's not really me, is it? I didn't decide to have two arms and three legs, why should I be burdened by the fact that that's what I've been given, is this some sort of punishment? I'm trapped in a frail and temporary physical mess who's only purpose is to house (or restrain) my mind. As far as how I use it, then.. I control what I can of it, obviously I can't decide about it's internal processes; digestion, fighting disease, etc, but I block out it's input a lot of the time, and yeah, well I've said about the heartbeat thing, and controling itches, -deliberately- going to sleep, etc. will discuss afterlife afterpizza. (or tomorrow, depending on how tired I am after eating (had to work today grumble grumble moan whine)) take care! 031115 ... u24 aha! yes. time, that annoying thing that beeps at me in the mornings.. I remember. tomorrow, next week - what's the difference? afterlife. ok. yeah, you poked at me right at the start, but I chickened out with my personal preferences as to what I'd like to happen with my body after I die, instead of answering what you were really asking, which I'm hopefully going to answer shortly, if only I can stop typing this type of rubbish. *grin* do I think there's an afterlife? why shouldn't there be? it's very assumptive of us to think that we're the only form of 'life', especially given the diversity of life right here in this dimension, on this planet, and given that diversity, and the diversity of everything else in the universe (many types of rocks, gases, liquids, etc) I can see no reason why it's improbable that there is an afterlife. so. what do I think the afterlife is like? who can tell? I mean, seriously, try to imagine life on mercury; I can't even get very far with that, the only visualisation I can get to is something you'd expect to see in a 50's sci-fi flick about moonmen. I don't think we as humans are very well equipped to imagine other dimensions; I just can't get a hold, even on the basics, it could be another physical level of life; that part of the soul returns to the earth along with the body, to be reborn in other living, or inanimate forms - obviously such a type of 'soul' would have to be linked in some way to a non-physical entity, but what kind of existence would that entity, or even the links have? are they tangible in any way, or are they purely energy, and if so, of what kind? anyway, I digress, what I'm really saying is that yes, I think there's an afterlife, but I can have no way of imagining what it's like, and therefore am open to suggestions - I think this is one area where truly, anything is possible. Same goes for past life memory, etc - could be a power surge from the non-physical soul, passing through the links, into it's current physical incarnation; i.e. the person having flashbacks. Or then again, it could be the little invisible goblins who live in our heads, whispering lies to us, who knows? :) ok. scanning back through everything above, there's a few points I'd like to elaborate on, so here goes: -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- it is not easy or intuitive to, when one wants something to happen, put that thought out of mind. often leads to obsession, which is imho giving your brain something to gnaw on until all you have are spit-covered bits and dog puke. unless you can draw something from it, like epicurean experience, or writing. *sigh* anyhow, so release of desire is not an easy thing; do you have any particular preference/stance for how it is best accomplished? -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- good way I discovered recently was to not observe yourself doing whatever it is that you're doing; do you remember the last time you tapped a drumbeat on the table? (hopefully not, otherwise my theory is blown :) I think the reason is that you don't devote much brainpower to it, so the memory of the event is not so clear; you're pretty much running on auto, a learned action, like biting your lip, etc. So yah, give that a go, it'll probally be easier if it's done on with day to day tasks; eg: the other day I found a fiver in my pocket, so I thought I'd put it somewhere that I'd discover at some later point (planning a pleasant suprise for the future) so I didn't look when I opened the box and put the money inside - hence it's harder for my mind to remember it, because my mind hasn't got a picture of the money in the box. (of course, I remember it now because that was the first time I'd done it - which of course means that 100% of my tests have failed. but I still think there's merit in the idea!) ok, this just popped into my head, probally well known, but still: I think the way sigils work is that while creating them, your subconscious is watching, like it does with everything you do, and it puts it away into memory, ranked against topic, linked with other events in memory etc, and then you make your conscious mind forget it; remove it from short term memory, do not think about it for a while; thus weakening the 'transport routes' between memory and consciousness, then, when finally you do see it again, it gets filed alongside it's creation - deep down you do remember - and the filing process, the forging of links between the two events (making it and later seeing it) spawns a set of subthoughts, which try to recover information about it's creation, you have seen to it that those thoughts never make it to consciousness, and -somehow- the energy of those sub-thoughts is released into the larger system of reality, having an effect, swaying the odds a little; and because it's such a carefully balanced system, it only needs to be pushed slightly in order for the original object of desire to be fullfilled. whatcha think? 031126 ... User24 damn! I'm so used to putting u24 in there that I forgot why I started doing it!. 031126 ... misstree next time i'm on, i'm going to time how long this page takes to load with a dialup connection. at the 'rents house, no sleep since brooklyn or somesuch, but i gotta poke, and i'm doing it as i read, so apologies if it's disjoined or whatnot. afterlife... only quip on this at the moment is that i was recently listening to someone spew on flatlands... and another conversation touched on a person's desire to go to europe, simply to try to convince himself that the world outside his perception existed... indeed, i could very easily see incomprehensible, i used the metaphor at one point for extradimensional_conceptualization (fun phrase!) of one of the two-dimensional characters in flatland tumbling along all axes in a three-dimensional space, and trying to relate what happened... dunno if it's from the book, been years, but i can definitely see the afterlife, if such a thing exists outside of the recycling of meat, as similarly incomprehensible. one theory that i've taken to as part of foma, is that souls are pieces of god, and "life" is their way of amusing themselves, the game that they play... unfortunately, most of them don't remember that it's a game... i think edgar_cayce was where i first saw the idea or something similar... but there is also the disturbing phenomenon of ghosts... another one of those things that niggles at me because i can't explain exactly why it happens... but through my personal experiences, i'd say yessirree they're about, and discussions with people i trust to have standards of skepticism similar to my own have yielded interesting tales... um...... on to point two, before i pass out at the keyboard and all i type is gfki,mxd, which is the "sound" of my head hitting the keyboard. personally, the two ways that i use to release desire, and this also helps outside ritual contexts, unless of course you consider all of life as a ritual or some form, in which case it's just, um, i dunno i got nothing... anyhow, i am a master of distraction... a bit scatter-brained, and i encourage this at times... it allows me to shift mindsets easily, a bit of free-associative wallowing... unfortunately, sometimes this isn't so effective, as if something is really chewing, it'll show up in the shuffle more often.... the other one that i consciously use is just not caring. not an easy one at all, and it often in my life takes intervention by the Great and Mighty Ironic Giggly One, just getting so exasperated by a situation while hearing a goddess_giggle that i finally give up, and there it is. this, i think, is a flavorite of Eris's tricks with me, which is okay because She can be a righteous_bitch when She feels like it. another way of really and truly not caring is just to, well, not give a shit. you're untouchable, you're top of the world. look at all the great things around you, even if it's just one thing. use that as a leverage point to shift opinoin on that subject, and it helps. repetition can come in handy. none of these are guaranteed results, but, well, that's how i do it when i do it, i think. aha, just read the next part down, and that is a damn good one, one that i forgot about... getting into the "zone" of something... where you're not watching yourself doing something... very useful on a lot of levels, and i'd go into it but i'm fading fast... and my fading doesn't allow me to digest the sigils enough to really comprehend it... later on that one... why did you start doing it? 031126 ... u24 hah, yeah I waas considering making an ask_use24___the_continuation blathe in orer to decrease loading times (it's even a long wait on my broadband connection) shall we? I started using 'u24' to mark little chatty blathes that I didn't want/need to link back to my name, ie, only using User24 for 'important' blathes. ...and then there's always that other alias of mine :) 031127 ... randomly recent wow, this is far too much for me to read. ! 040111 ... mt print it out. yumminess. and u24, go find "what the *(#$%&(*@ do we know?" 's a yankee film, the bleep is misquoted but it was filmed in portland, oregon... i might be able to get more info on it for ya, but myu first niught in my new home, don't expect too much frmn me... sduffice to say it deals with consensual_reality on the perceptual, psychological, biological, probability-based, and unity-based levelx. when i'm not drunk i;ll tell you more. 050618 ... u24 i haven't heard of/seen that film. 060424 what's it to you? who go blather from