questing_deep_into_the_grey_caves misstree collecting anecdotes and experiences, looking for common threads... first one that i wish to poke at, if any would be so kind: have you ever had an experience/meditation/vision/dream which involved completely losing the concept of Self? 030904 ... oldephebe yea - when i was 14 i attended this pentacostal church along with my faithful sunday and wednesday night attendance at the old baptist church - the pentacostals really got down though - well not really - so anyway i was trying to summon the "spirit" so i could speak in tongues (it was partly a peer pressure thing 3 of my friends alleged they were spirit filled and spoke in tongues) okay so they teach you to get yourself all worked up into an emotional lather by saying jesus over and over again really fast until you start speaking gibberish and then when you lose yourself - the spirit is able to enter you - well with me i uh got on my knees - started saying jesus and then i started thinking about the whole of God's creation and how absurd it was to be on my knees saying jesus over and over at an almost unintelligable rate - gradually my mind focus on the idea of imeasurable space eternity - i felt my mind soar into the cosmos i mean literally out amongst the stars - this feeling of moving at incredible speeds and it was glorious and then i lost track of time - i lost track of me - and i came down saying space - space space - it was euphoric and kind of orgasmic and i felt kind of guilty because i wasn't really thinking about jesus or anything religious just felt like i was in star trek or something, some entity - some disembodied consciousness soaring out amongst the cosmos - it was incredible -i've never tried to duplicate it - i think twenty or thirty minuts had passed - so i guess whatever i saw or experienced is wedged somewhere in a subterranian fissure of my sub-consciousness - oh and i have dreams quite often where i am not even in the dream - yeah i'm probably represented by a figurant or some idealized projection or some negative projection -but i don't recognize myself, so it's like i'm watching a movie - hmm passivity - and non-recognizable projection or non-projection in a dreamscape - weird - not really into dream interpretation and all that..so ...... ...... 030904 ... misstree thanks, 'phebe. :) and personally, i wouldn't feel guilty about the conception ending with space... i could see that as an interpretation of divinity, especially with perspective of vastness... but that's just me. those who know me as an argumentative individual (me? never!) please note, i have absolutely no interest in judging the worth or weight of any of the experiences here; there are threads that run through strange places, strange things, and i'm trying to follow them to either end, help fill in the Big Picture. every experience is valid, and every experience lends insight. so there. 030904 ... misstree k... glad to have so much input. :P (anonymity is quite acceptable when dealing with strane sh!t like this... i know i would hesitate to share my own stories)... mayhap i'll answer my own question in a bit... but FIRST, i have another... reading recently advice on ways to deal with being suddenly accosted by a reporter, ala 20 minutes media mauling, one of the suggestions was the following: 2. The Divinity Defense. You've got a camera pointed at you and thousands of people hang on your every word. Don't waste this unique opportunity by answering some mundane question flung at you by an obnoxious intruder or special prosecuter. Instead, raise the conversation to a higher plane by explaining your deepest beliefs to the multitudes. Some examples: If you're a Christian, recite John 3:16, and explain what it means to your spiritual life. If you read Joseph Campbell, spread the message that "The meaning of life is the experience of living." If you're a Buddhist, jog our memory that "All life is sorrow," but that salvation can be achieved by detachment from desire. Tell the world your love for your spouse grows every hour of every day. (And if you're not sure what your deepest belief is, maybe it's time to think about *that* for a while...) (site, btw, is http://www.impermanentpress.com/pages2/freex.html) so what_what_would_you_say? 030912 ... misstree (also, quote above from by D. Scott Apel) 030912 ... ^^ '' \/ 030912 ... Dafremen Yes. Daily, when I walked out of the house every morning, back when I was still on the Path. I'm almost back...thank goodness. I miss it so much. You have no idea how alive, how loved, how immeasurably CUIDADO it makes one feel. Then again, I dunno, perhaps you DO. 030912 ... realistic optimist since i was a little child, i've learned to use the ability to shut my sense of self off to my advantage. that, however, is when conscious. it has happened at a phish show, when i felt so filled up with the happiness and excitement of the crowd around me, i was brimming with energy, an danced entranced for the whole show except for once when i collapsed and rehydrated for a few minutes. that, too was when i was conscious. during a hallucination while taking nitrous and being high on marijuana in college, i lost myself and feeling of self entirely. there was only nothingness. then after what could not be conceived of as time, there was an unidentifiable sound. at which point i became aware of perception. eventually the sound became an almost industrial music type "clang!" i then became aware of my body, and the sensation of falling. As i fell, i realized i was falling beside this huge spike which was being struck by a hammer with an unseen hand, over, and over and over. i then felt a sense of coming back to myself. however, i do not recall any such dreams at present... 030912 ... realistic optimist at the end of the phish show, i cried in the arms of someone i loved and was perfectly content to do so. it was merely the sadness and sorrow that everyone harbors, that they unintentionally left a slime coating of on themselves when i meandered through their group consciousness. i didn't mind. 030912 ... misstree once, while i slept next to my demon_lover, i dreamt... dreamt is the wrong word, it was a state, not even a thought, it was All, it was Being Wholeness... it was everything as One, the interconnectedness of baby doll arms and dog food, it was the consciousness of Divinity. three hours of sleep, and i suddenly sat bolt upright, alert and completely awake. my demon_lover did the same at precisely the same moment--he had been dreaming of Hell. a satyr later told me that castaneda had spoken of such a state, that normally there were beings that could, if properly approached in dreams, guide one to that place. i'm still mulling over what i would say to that camera--might take me a bit. 030913 ... oldephebe that's some haevy stuff misstree 030913 ... relentless inner critic Hey! O vast and voluble one, it's spelled h e a v y - got that? 030913 ... oldephebe um..yeah *scurries away* 030913 ... misstree hey, critic! getouttahere before i sic blather_spell_check on j00! ya, i'm still not quite sure what to think of it, haven't studied castaneda nearly as much as i should... very strange things were happening on a near constant basis during that time, so i file it under "keep trying to figure this out." i was reminded of it recently when a friend told me of an experience with salvia (which i'll post if/when i get permission), and it was a similar glimpse beyond the self, which salvia seems very conducive to... experiences where the self is completely lost are another thread that i've seen running through a lot of different beliefs, but it's not really talked about much, or if it is it's heavily codified... it seems an important piece, somehow, but very difficult to get a handle on. 030913 ... realistic optimist i forgot to mention that at the moment of waking, the spike was suddenly being pounded through my heart. the reverberations were coarsing through me, they ewre the substance of my reality. 030913 ... neesh bit of a follower of castanedianism myself, and i wasn't sure what you meant by your "demon lover", but when sleeping at my lover's house was when i had my most lucid experience. i thought i'd woken up and she'd come into the room to tell me to get up, but i couldn't move, not even my mouth to say anything, and i really panicked, but because i've done that before, i then realised i was dreaming, and found myself able to move, so i got up. then it soon turned back into an ordinary dream and got slightly surreal, sadly. the time before i'd woken up and i could see energy instead of physical form. i should have been looking at my hand, but all i could see was energy, i tried to move my hand, and couldn't, really scared the hell out of me. then i actually woke up. when castaneda talked about getting to hell, it wasn't actually hell, just a parallel perception of this world in which everything is fiery and sulphurous; it was possible to travel through that to one of diaphanous light (ie heaven), but further than that, it was possible to reach entirely separate kinds of reality. i've forgotten most castaneda too sadly, but have recently started learning to dream, though not by any conscious effort. 030913 ... misstree i guess i should be careful with my metaphors hereabous... see demon_lover for what i have to say on that... the spike being driven has a resonance with the salvia experience, soon to come, hopefully... and the hell that he spoke of was not the traditional fiery pits, it was nightmares harsher than anything ever experienced, it was sheer terror and pain... and this was a man not easily shaken. fact, i think it was about the *only* time i ever saw him shaken. 030913 ... misstree wonders why demon_lover isn't linking above... 030926 ... misstree there it goes. :P 030926 ... User24 Once, I said 'Hi' to all the Gods and Godesses, told them that I believed in them, and that I wasn't asking for anything, that I just thought I'd say hello, and let them know that I'd probally drop by and ask them for help at some point, and thanked them if they'd helped me in the past. What really took me by suprise, is that they said 'Hi' back. I felt myself lifted, as though high, I saw them sitting in a garden, they fed me, chatted with me and welcomed me, it was truly an out of body experience. 030927 ... misstree i would imagine that not a lot of people stop by just to chat. 030927 ... u24 yes, you're probably right. I wish I knew their names, though. I'm sure Pan was there, but that's probably just becuase he's the only one I can attribute physical characteristics to. 040125 ... oldephebe neesh - I've had many spectral/spiritual/dream screams like that. Sometimes, a year will pass before I have one, and other times I am assailed several times in one evening, several times a week. I have a mantra that I invoke and it seems to cause things to congeal and tear the yoke of whatever the heck is trying to communicate or ravage me...or that angry unhonored aspect of id banging on the basement roof from my unconscious. Phantasms and ectoplasms. *does johnny carson impression - That is weird weird stuff* There are times when the residue of abject fear and horror cling to my souls strata for the remainder of the day. Most times though, being the somewhat anal retentive pragmatist that I am..I just tightly clasp on my mantle of rigorously assembled objective reality and court the day, come what will. could you elaborate on this castaneda concept? Is it an inerpretive abacus for dream distillation or something? ... 040125 ... oldephebe then again it could've of just been some undercooked ground sirloin swimming in the late night pond dross of chile and swiftly subsumed saltines I'd just inhaled before bed...So.... 040125 ... andru235 in saint paul there are various caverns, plus a few others around the twin cities. a reliable source claims that minnesota's only hallucinogenic mushrooms can sometimes be found growing in those caves... kids used to go in the caves and have seances, or sex, or six-penny operas. well, maybe not that last one. there is a dance-studio built into one of the caves (i think it's still there...) lately there has been a movement to barricade the enterances to the caves, for "safety". it is apparently lost on our leaders that sometimes too much physical safety is mentally dangerous. exploring caves is very exciting for teenagers especially...heh heh. 051022 what's it to you? who go blather from