religion dallas I am a spiritual man and I am a simple man. I don't need your religion to come knocking on my door ready to save me from my own disbelief. 980930 ... emma you know what's funny? webster's has a word "religionism". go figure that one out. 981225 ... amy simplicity at its most beautiful 990214 ... daxle every religion, and every philosophy that claims not to be a religion, has a hole in it somewhere, and yet each group considers theirself superior is it so hard to admit that we don't know all the answers? 990517 ... Jeff @ Newdream Crack for the weak minded? 990528 ... jared_d Man's explanation for the inexplicable...until we figure it out by ourselves. Then it's not god's fault anymore. What of god if we finally do figure everything out? Won't that be a pisser. 990923 ... Nate Higgins After tearing apart every illusion and cutting with your rusty sabre through every piece of misinformation with the zealous glee of the self righteous in the name of truth you find yourself cold and alone in a meaningless world. This is when one finds religion whether it be Taoism, collecting stamps or sex it is the self delusion you choose to worship for lack of anything better to do. 991030 ... kimmichael That which seems so appealing, (and in nights of sad introspection that great googling word opens up its banging intangible doors for a few precious hours...)becomes easily dismissed as another dismal attempt to ease the ego of man. Shattered by those stones of doubt, of which I have an endless supply. Crish...*crash!*(for cynical admirability)--Someday people will read The Bible for entertainment, just as I read about Poseidon as a boy.-- 991115 ... sinkdaddy I am God. God is not religion. 991210 ... a a 991212 ... bob Onward Christian Soldiers, Onward Buddhist Priests. Onward, Fruits of Islam, gight till youre deceased. Fight your little battles, Join in thickest fray; For the Greater Glory, of Dis-cord-i-a Yah, yah, yah, Yah, yah, yah, yah. Blfffffffffft! 991221 ... zippy Why does everyone need something to believe in? Something to cling to? 000105 ... meli "Religion has the capability of generating unselfish love in some people, and vicious, raw hatred in others." -OCRT 000105 ... decoy "God, sometimes you just don't come through." -Tori Amos 000124 ... spamboy god may have made my body. but to the point of where i am today, i am a self made man. no one has helped me get to where i am now. i have come here on my own terms, and i have on one to blame but myself. not god. 000306 ... brett opium for the masses? 000306 ... hopper Religion soothes the fearful. 000401 ... birdmad " when will it stop unfolding? when will i ever be face to face with the devil in me? " 000401 ... smed Well hell, in this age of computers and science and rational thinking, religion sure sticks out like a sore thumb. But old habits die hard, and this one probably isn't going to die anytime soon. I say 'to each man his own' as long as that man doesn't knock on my door one sunday morning in hopes of saving me. 000426 ... silentbob i respect religions and religious people. they believe in something i dont and have something in their lives i dont. but they have to realize that there are about 2903429384293842 other religions too...so why would THEY be right above all those other people? just live your life and let other people live theirs. as long as people don't die over it, let it be. 000607 ... a plain religious man people think they don't need religion. they think religion is just a comfortable delusion, a crutch for the weak. they think they are so better, so able to withstand the world, they don't need no crutch. that's just being plain foolish. just because the world is nice today, you think its going to be nice tomorrow. but it's not. the world is an ugly place. and if you think that even in the harshest of times you still won't need any 'comfortable delusions', and you can soar above the discomforts of the world, happy in knowing the truth, then you're just a proud fool. no one is like that. when push really comes to shove, every one becomes religious -- or they go mad. people are also fools, who think that religion is the unexplained, but that soon all will be explained. religion sure is about the explained, but if we small little petty creatures, so small, so short-lived, so insignifcant, on a cosmic scale, are gonna figure it all out, we are just being proud and fooling ourselves. we are never gonna work it all out, at least not by ourselves. besides, us humans can't know ourselves. self-knowledge means we'd have to be bigger than ourselves, to fit all that knowledge in. which we no can be. there will always be mystery in the universe, always be the unexplained. the proud fools try to do the impossible and explain it. the wise realise that they cannot explain it, that what they can attain on their own efforts, while it seems to them so much, is nothing at all, on a cosmic scale. and they turns to God for their help and comfort. 000608 ... a plain religious man i didn't mean to say you were all proud fools. some of you are. others are just misguided. if they realised they were acting like proud fools do, they would stop. 000608 ... a plain religious man no, now i think, you are all misguided. talking to those who thing religion is stupid. you don't mean to be fools, you just... can't help it? 000608 ... sannyasi "Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell, spirituality is for people who've already been there." 000609 ... Zoe religion is so confusing. first i was a strong christian, then i realized that i was just one because everyone else one. then i became buddhist, but realized that i didn't believe in it. now i'm a mix between athiest and my own religion. i think that there must be some type of power out there, i just don't call it god. 000716 ... Tank of which war is a symptom of. 000716 ... CNoll The thing that bugs me about any religion esp. Christianity is that its followers always preach one thing but then do another. Because someone takes time each week to go out of his or her way to attend church and follow the Bible and listen to a preacher, shouldn't this person act good? But many of my friends are religious and yet they are not exactly "good" people. Does attending church give them the right to do bad things because they will be forgiven later? I say all churchgoers are basically hypocrites. I seriously believe that they should not sin at all...just my two cents... 000816 ... grendel quick bit of cognitive dissonance: anyone ever notice that the word " denomination " applies to religions and units of currency what is the deal with that? 000816 ... The Schleiffen Man Maybe they're both just asymmetric parts the same system. 000816 ... d and we read from pleasent bibles that are bound in blood and skin 000817 ... Hari Nana Jesus died for his own sins, not mine. 001127 ... patti smith jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine. thick, heart of stone. my sins my own, they belong to me 001127 ... chanaka i am my own religion and i don't need anyone else to tell me that i'm going to hell--i know it! that is something i am fine with. because i am only going to a hell of my own making, not theirs. just let me go on my atheist way and don't harass me! NO! i don't WANT to be saved! and you know why? because i have saved myself. i will always save myself. i can't say about others, only me 001127 ... silentbob something that can be quite beautiful has been marred by the people that keep pushing..and pushing..and pushing. And to that Plain Religious Man Why are we the foolish ones? For doubting what you 'know' to be true? Or just complaining about it? I know you don't claim to know everything. But i simply don't believe that you really know the truth. and if that makes me misguided, i accept responsibility for that. Did i jump on anyone for anything they didn't say, here? 001127 ... daxle no, congradulations :) 001127 ... silentbob hehe and then looking back i was thinking i kind of did a little, becuase...i dont know..he never really.... oh i dont even know. its just... We're "misguided" because we werent told the same thing as him. i dont see it that way. 001127 ... amy If something is confusing, forget about it. And, defending religion just shows insecurity, which doesn't really go along with the faith thing. It really doesn't matter what other people think, so "misguided" is a little irrelevant. I agree with Sannyasi, in some form or another. 001129 ... silentbob well done and my spirituality comes from the salvation of the hell of feeling unloved by someone i love. meaning, i feel spiritual enlightenment from having a love in my life, because she saves me from the hell of lonliness. thast what my faith and religion is. 001129 ... splinken i've considered becoming catholic. jesus doesn't have much to do with it. i like how everything is charged with meaning--physical, material, pretty things, i mean. like altars, and sacred heart of jesus candles, and all that. and i like the pictures. and i would love to believe in something. in one thing. i hate to be vague. any lack of precision makes me sick. i don't have any myths. i don't mean that tired "opiate for the masses, afraid of the sick, sad truth" kind of myth. myth is useful. it gives us stories that teach us and explain things--and you don't have to take your myths literally ( i think they serve their purpose best if you don't ). i want myth. i want ritual. i want a quiet place where i can sit with lots of other people. i want to sit with these other people and appreciate things. i don't want to go to the baptist church and sit with some youth group. i do not want to watch some cute boy with a guitar sing contemporary christian songs while we all sway and bang tambourines. i like religion because it's not contemporary. it goes beyond "talking about your feelings" and sitting in a circle with a guitar and all that vague, feel-good crap. i like judaism too. it's hard to decide, you know? 001202 ... god religion? run away as fast as you can. 99% of these people are NO FUCKING GOOD. 001202 ... . who is this wonderful girl that fills all voids in your life silent one? 001204 ... silentbob i wish i could tell you. i really do. but i have not met her yet. or maybe i have but neither of us know. and i dont think you can ONLY be born again to jesus. if i ever meet this girl and fall in love and all that jazz, i'll be born again. being born again to me is any life change after you made a very important realization and decision. "I'm a born again smoker" "Im a born again non-smoker" hope no one is offended, i hate insulting others just by breathing. 001204 ... justa guy why can't we all create one religion, that way we would have peace on Earth? 001210 ... twiggie why can't people just respect the beliefs of others and let them be? 001228 ... silentbob thats what i try to do. i just get mad at people when they tell other people they are wrong for believing the way they do and then i yell at them, and probably sound like i'm oppressing their rights to have their own beliefs, and it is not my intention. sigh. 001228 ... twiggie i just don't understand it. there are so many religions in the world, why can't people come to see that their's isn't the only one...how can they say their religion is the RIGHT one over all the others? 001228 ... stupidpunkgirl i don't care about what you believe. it's your life, live it. don't complain. or preach. i don't believe in anything. no religion. i tried really hard to be christian. i couldn't. so far....i think i'm doing alright. 001228 ... silentbob i agree with you both. i used to believe things such as those, but its only cuz its all i knew. the more i thought about it when i started to think the less realistic it sounded. now i am without religion. i call myself atheist, but people stereotype and whatnot. whatever. 001228 ... twiggie i consider myself agnostic. i've tried to sort out catholicism so many times but i can't. i gave up freshman year for the last time and just decided that it wasn't worth it. i've been a lot happier since, i was sick of trying to make my family happy that way. i don't care if other people have a religion, as long as they don't start preaching to me about how i'm going to hell and such because i don't believe in it. 001228 ... kx21 There are too few Religions to serve Everybody needs. That may be the main reason why many chose not to believe in any one of them. Hopefully more new religions would help to attract or keep so called the Free Thinkers at BAY. There is also more than sufficient room or space for each Religion to grow, expand, or blossom... Love your own religion Respect other's religion or freedom of choice. 001228 ... sabbie i was bought up weirdass-hell-fanatical-christian (im pretty sure that was the correct title), and forever told that everyone who didnt believe EXACTLY as my elders did were doomed to hell. the gentle little girl i was used to cry at that, and one day conjoured up her own belief that there was a heaven for christians, and a different heaven for buddusits, and one for jews and so on and that really there were a thousand heavens out there for every different belief in the world, so that noone had to miss out. twenty-however-many years later, i see no reason not to keep on believing that. your life is what you make it, and really, youre not going to get into a heaven that doesnt agree with you and who you are - imagine peoples faces if they got into a heaven that had nothing to do with their beliefs! having to spend eternity watering other peoples pot plants and trying to find the door to their real heaven... itd make for some pretty unhappy afterlifers. and think of the red tape. all those forms to find the right heaven for you, forms signed in triplicate to prove you are who you think you are and having to find a god who will vouch for you... ick. and i bet you thought all your problems were _finished_ once you died... why would your heaven not run along the same kind of line? 001229 ... sabbie opps... those last 2 lines i thought i deleted. bloody laptop... but while im here, my dear plain religious man, who are you to stand on your wobbly little soap-box and proclaim that all people are fools for believing that they are right, when you yourself are commiting that self same sin? you use the term 'proud fool' so readily, and when you said " if they realised they were acting like proud fools do, they would stop." do you _really_ think they would? you didnt. i bet you don't mean to be a fool, you just... can't help it? poor man. if you are truly worried about the people you are preaching to, do you think the friendliest approach was to constanly insult them? i dont really think thats going to get them on your side, sweetie. and if your not trying to convert them, then what are you doing? simply gloating like a school bully that you have a special thing they can never have? your own salvation/religion/god/whatever that theyre not allowed to play with? now now, if you act like that, itll be taken away from you, and then you will have nothing at all, and you wont like that, will you? i thought not. 001229 ... kx21 Just to add a point. If you are really good, nobody can stop you from making use of your wisdom and talent by creating a new RELIGION, your own version of GOD / SATAN, HEAVEN / HELL, LIVING SPACE / UNIVERSE, Beliefs / Teachings, etc..., where appropriate, for YOURSELF and your followers to beautify and add more colour to our Nature & LIFE. I suppose the Creator of the Universe(s) (GOD) would definitely happy about that and would bless you and support you along the way. Copyright 2000. kx21.com 001229 ... kx21 If Real GOD is as to the Creator of the UNIVERSE(s), then Real SATAN is as to __________ ?, Real Heaven is as to _________ ?, Real Hell is as to ____________ ?, Real Religion is as to __________?, Real Self is as to _________ ?, ??? 001229 ... kx21 Change is the only Constant in the Universe. The Religion and thus the Bible and its preachings/ teachings are also subject to change or revision over time in order to give real value to their followers and to align its contents with the present and future contexts and lifestyles, where appropriate. 001229 ... Seth Yet more people demanding my time. 010101 ... the repeater god sez... religion? run away as fast as you can. 99% of these people are NO FUCKING GOOD. 001202 ... 010101 ... kx21 Love your own religion / belief AND Respect other's religion / Belief or freedom of choice, otherwise You shall be PUT_TO_DEATH 010102 ... Quiggz Well, pretty much as you don't kill people over it, and don't shove yours in my face, I'm happy. Although I think faith is better than religeon. Too much organization leads to power games, methinks. Be proud of who you are and what you believe, but don't try to force me to be like you. Talk to me about it, sure. I enjoy nice, two sided discussions about faith and other similar topics. But don't attack me with your beliefs, please. I know I might "burn" according to some people. But I think I've been a basicly good person, and I'm comfortable with what my life has been like. Rock on, and Keep the Faith 010102 ... kx21 Mission Impossible:- Keep the Faith and Free the Mind 010103 ... constance briefly lose the faith, lose the mind, and keepon chooglin' 010104 ... kx21 The Art of Religion:- Loosen the faith and tighten the mind... 010104 ... kx21 The Science of Religion:- tighten the faith and loosen the mind... The Mania of Religion:- tighten the faith and tighten the mind... Nature of Reglion:- loosen the faith and loosen the mind... And Nature prevails... 010104 ... god "... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself." -thomas jefferson 010104 ... god brown sugar.... 010104 ... Quiggz And yet, I think Jell-O is quite tasty... a paradox? or merely a cheeseburger, swinging silently in the nighttime wind? 010104 ... god cheeseburger 010104 ... Quiggz Excellent! *Glomph* Now, a digesting cheeseburger 010105 ... daxle fuck_religion 010105 ... kx21 A new religion from / for you? 010105 ... god yeh is it a religion based on fuck, as well? either way i think it's cool. 010106 ... Wiley Coyote I think a bumper sticker my lovely wife told me about sums it up for me- My Goddess gives better head than yours. Go Eris 010106 ... kx21 Do you know (e.g. from the Bible, etc) what happened to GOD after the UNIVERSE was created? 010116 ... god i blacked out for a few millenia. when i came to, i was in the bathroom. i had left the water on and the house was flooded. what a mess! i sent my son to find a plumber, but he got into some trouble with the local rednecks. i got pretty pissed off. i think i am finally coming to terms, though. 010116 ... Bell R excuse for those who can find no reason to go on living. the threat of eternal damnation keeping our souls in the cycle of capitalism. Walking sources of income for industries and living computer for businesses. Seek the eternal bliss of an escape. the sweet comfort of sleep everlasting. 010116 ... god hell is like 010130 ... unhinged it grew out of the need to explain the unexplainable. but now it just breeds intolerance in most people. most every religion has a set of rules that tell you how to be good and if you don't follow the rules then you are bad and will go to hell. every religion has slightly varying rules and most think that there's are the only right rules. so everyone that doesn't follow their religion is going to go to hell. i never saw much sense in this. why do people think they need to go to church to be with god? why do people think that as long as they go to church on sunday they will go to heaven no matter what they do during the week? i very rarely attend catholic church and whenever it comes to the point in the mass where everyone recites "i believe in one holy and apostolic church..." (yeah, i'm not a very good catholic. only fulfilled one of the sacraments) i think to myself what's the sense in this declaration? the church has been a money-making instituion of control for almost a millenia. do you really need a preacher, priest, bishop etc. to tell you what you should think god says? can't you tell that on your own when you walk outside everday? i will admit that church and organized religion has done good for society and it works for a lot of people but look at all the bad. many a war was fought in history in the name of christ. god sees all. 010220 ... kx21 Given that all the existing religions are somehow complicated by GOD, SATAN, HEAVEN & HELL, or more precisely, they are somewhat impefect because of the biased intention / action / reaction: praise GOD, condemn SATAN, beautify the Heaven and undermine the HELL. Just for the sake of curiosity... Is it possible to create, design & develop or evolve a new and better Religion with the absence of GOD, SATAN, HEAVEN and HELL? 010220 ... firehunden a crutch for the weak minded. an excuse for lack of understanding. a reason why when the reason is beyond thier intelligence. a direction for the lost. a candle in the darkness of life. don't be afraid of the dark....be afraid of people who rely on others to find thier way. find your own way. it is the only true way for you. do yourself a favor and don't bring that candle over here. I can see through thr darkness. I don't want or need you help. 010225 ... kx21 The answer is probably yes:- M_religion- The Mother of all Religion, P_Being - The Perfection of Being, 010225 ... kx21 Please refer to M_religion & P_Being for further information... 010225 ... kx21 With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for bad people to behave well and good people to do evil - that take religion. Does God really matter? 010319 ... MexPanther pure bullshit 010325 ... kx21 The Paradox of Religion:- " For bad people to behave well and good people to do evil - that take religion. " Does God have a final say on the Morality of Religion? 010325 ... chaotic_poet mystery of the unknown.Explains it all. Conformity of the highest stake. Lovely though... pure intentions. Manipulative. Search for meaning. Who is right? Maybe no one. it takes a special breed. Begining and endings all tied together. comfort blanket to much of society. Sheep at the feet of fools. To cynical to follow. To many questions to ask, not good enough answers. 010511 ... kx21 All Religions die when The_truth of U is found; God is presence in Moral World; TOE is discovered and validated by Scientists... 010512 ... kx21 Is it true that Religion is preaching something about the faith instead of The_Truth? 010513 ... sykoze religion = public neurosis 010619 ... kx21 Is it good to tighten its membership rules, specifically entry requirements & code of ethics? 011001 ... kx21 Given the law of nature:- Entropy of any given system increases over time... What are the sources of entropy strung around Religion? 011010 ... elonar science human nature of greed corruption of organized religion conflict between different religions 011011 ... kx21 Its Hunger for Power & Politics is somehow proportionaly to its size... 011017 ... ares nothing comes close to describing the utter disgust i fell for what religion has wrought without religion petty vicious people would never have enacted their vicious little fantasies on the (mostly) innocent people without religion man would have to think of a real reason for attacking someone other than "god is on my side" or "they are god's enemies" if they too worship god, how are they god's enemies you fools religion blinds you all 011110 ... Dafremen Oh religion, greed, national pride. We take a lot of noble ideas and f*ck them up. So the f*ck what? Religion is simply one excuse man has invented for killing other men for land and pissing rights. On the other hand, without religion, you couldn't have atheists and I guarantee a lot of things would be a lot worse by now. Guarantee it. Yes, very bad. Yes in the name of religion. Yes, very bad. Not worse thatn without. I personally can live without it. Course a lot more of us would be dead without it. Religion is the opiate that soothes the masses and puts their minds at ease. It just another way of enjoying the ride instead of sweating the "end" the whole time. Live and let live. Let the idiots kill, you'll be back...guaranteed. 011110 ... kx21 Two main sources of Wars: Religious pride and Racial / Tribal / National Pride... 011111 ... Dafremen The primary source of war: A childish human brain desperately clawing at it's mortality in a juvenile attempt to make it go away. 011112 ... nemo zombie nation 011112 ... Sonya Religion....I've probably had too many arguments and discussions about it. It's an aspect of human society that originally had good intentions behind it but has since evolved into the crucible of society in which conflicts simmer. The wannabe Communists of China once said that "religion is poison" when they were referring to the Tibetan Buddhists. Sometimes I find myself agreeing with them that religion can be poison if we depend on it too much. Most of us would argue that having diversity is a good thing and having diversity in religion is a good thing. Is that really true? Yes it is. It has divided us but perhaps we should think of it this way. If we just had one universal religion perhaps we'd eventually get tired of it. Imagine going to eat at the same restaurant every single day and ordering the same exact thing to eat. Wouldn't you start to get tired of that food? It'd probably start to make you sick after awhile. Wouldn't you feel the urge to try something new? Most of us are willing to try anything once before knocking it. Most of us like the idea that there is a wide variety of things to eat. Why can't this apply to religion? I do realize that certain small groups of people seem to ruin things for the rest of us by showing up at our doors unsolicited and immediately criticizing our beliefs. The rest of us know better than that though. I'm guilty of slamming the door in someone's face just as anyone else, but I'm also guilty of going out of my way to learn about that which I do not understand. Religion only turns "bad" when we depend on it far too much. Organized religion is something I've had a problem with for many years because it feels like it goes against the very nature of religion itself. I always had the belief that all you really need are whatever texts/scriptures your faith has, and your own genuine beliefs. Everyone seems to get caught up in proving or showing how much they believe to other people or the public when of course that really doesn't matter. When I try to imagine a world without religion I simply can't because so much of mankind's history revolves around religion - positive or negative. I keep hoping that some day everyone will stop trying to prove which one is right or wrong, better or worse and just accept that we need the variety. It's sort of like attempts to say that apples are better than oranges - a consensus will never be reached. Personal responsibility has to take precedence some time soon - we seem to blame a lot of stuff on "the powers that be" if you will. It's okay to believe and to have faith, but it's not okay to try to take your responsibility out of your hands through religion. There are many things people die for and religion is one of them. I wonder though, do people ever LIVE for religion? 011112 ... kx21 A profound thought:- Commercialisation/ commercialization Memebership of Religions like country clubs, Credit cards, etc... The more you got, the better you are... 011112 ... kx21 A profound thought:- Commercialisation/ commercialization Memebership of Religions like country clubs, Credit cards, etc... The more you got, the better you are... 011112 ... xxx i did not design this game i did not name the stakes i just happen to like apples and i am not afraid of snakes 011118 ... rip i do not believe in the christian religion it contrdicts itself all the time. And what the hell with everyone trying to push there religion onto you. i mean cant you believe in what ever you wnat to believe. i personally believe in shamanish and nature. but im not pushing it on other people. I guess what im trying to say is STOP FUCKING PUSHING RELGIION ON OTHER PEOPLE!!!!!!!! 011118 ... anti-social butterfly k, here's the deal. i believe in God. i believe in Jesus. i hate religion. i hate christianity. i do not believe in God and Jesus because my parents told me too, i do not believe in them because society told me to. i believe in them because of what i have seen in my life and the people that i have met that are truly out of this world. i believe that Jesus taught a way of life which i have seen to be very humble and good. i have not always believed in these things. i used to be an atheist. this is what i believe now. i do not follow Jesus' teachings very well, i do not live a perfect life, i question my beliefs. i do not claim to be anything but a screw up. i am not a hypocrite because i believe in God, Jesus, the Bible. i am not a hypocrite because i do not claim to be right and i do not claim to perfect at all. i generally do not call myself a christian because, well, i generally hate christians. now this is wrong. i should not hate anyone. perhaps i hate it that religion and many so-called christians have killed so many people's spirits. who the fuck do they think they are? they do not need to impose their beliefs on others. they need to respect other people's beliefs if they expect to be respected by others. i hate what so many people have done in the name of christianity. it is like these so-called christians and churches have completely lost what the message of Jesus' teachings was. Jesus taught about love and forgiveness. He taught about living a life of humility. He did not call people to judge at all. the message that he taught was of a radical way of life, a crazy one by today's or yesterday's standards. i think the church is dead for the most part and the church has created religion. Jesus did not teach religion. he preached against the self-righteous holy and religious people of his time. Jesus taught about love an a way of life. do not preach to people. do not judge people. just love people. respect people and their beliefs. how do you know you are so right? we are merely humans. how much can we possibly know in a lifetime? if you want to preach, look at someone like mother theresa's life. she rarely preached with words. if you want to preach, do so with the way you live your life. that would be much more unique for a christian to do than preaching with words. well, i did it. i wrote about religion. i have been avoiding it so long, but finally felt i had to write something. i know it is a risk too, because all of you will probably misinterpret this as another religious preaching talk thing, and i am certainly familiar with anti-religion and anti-christian sentiments. i myself hate religion. religion has screwed over so many people and has deviated so far from original teachings and messages of love. i want you all to know that i am not preaching, because i don't do that. i am not perfect, i am in fact quite a screw up. i am sorry to all of you who have been screwed over and judged by christians and by religion in general. i have too. it sucks. i do not believe anyone is called to judge others. however, i am sure all of you will judge me simply for believing in Jesus, God, and the way of life Jesus taught (note: not christianity), but i hope you will not. it is what i believe, though i could never claim to live by it very well. i want you all to know that i respect your opinions and beliefs a lot. you are all so intelligent. i hope you can respect me and my beliefs as well, and see this blather for what it is, simply another blather, just opinion. 011127 ... anti-social butterfly can't believe i wrote that much. i didn't realize it. apologies for my wordiness. 011127 ... anti-social butterfly one last thing. sonya: interesting point, the living or dying for a religion thing. here's a quote i find interesting too... "the mark of the immature man is that he would die nobly for a cause: the mark of the mature man is that he would live humbly for one." -J.D. Salinger i see his point. it is an interesting one. i don't know whether or not i agree. it is something to ponder i guess. 011127 ... ClairE is a light in the fog. 011127 ... kx21 The Net_Present_Value (NPV) of Religion = (Heaven + Hell) / 2 (i.e. Nothing or Zero) ? 011222 ... kx21 NPV of Religion - Entropy of Human_String = ? 011222 ... cube We all have a religion. Religion is that which you spend the most time and energy pursuing. If you live to party, then 'partying' is your religion. If you study to the exclusion of all else, then 'learning' is your religion. If money drives you to distraction, then that too is your religion. When we come to face our creator, we will be held accountable for our time - our religion ... 011223 ... Tiffa Thoughts on Mythology. Yeah sure, Webster's Dictionary describes it. Great, so do our history teachers, but what if you were to tell the priests of Zeus, Aphrodite, Isis, and Odin that their religion, the very thing that maintains them would become mere 'stories' to tell children? Stories that meant nothing and were taught to be for fun, never for truth. It's rare to hear in class a teacher discuss the fact that these stories acutally revolved around a thriving, heady, powerful religion. What will the Cardnils and Fathers of today feel when their religion dies out and the bible and Jesus and the arc are all just fun stories? Can we really call these myths if they were from a thriving relion? Very interesting thoughts, please if you have soemthing to say about this I am really curious. email me. My_theory@yahoo.com 020212 ... brandi anti-social butterfly, why can't the rest of the "Christians" be like you? ;-) Anyways, I certainly had no offense with what you wrote...no worries:-) [Sometimes]I wish we could all just throw religion away, but I doubt even I could throw away the study of it. So....I suppose I wish we could all just live in peace...Like it's been said before, "Live and let Live." I can't believe some of the things that happen in the world sometimes or that people believe in the things they do (probably what others think of me,too;-) I don't believe in prostelyzing at all. If a person is meant to find that relgion,they will.... 020312 ... kx21 The Smell of Religion is like the color of Skin... 020312 ... Ivonna H. [Homer] "I'm not a praying man, but if you're up there, save me Superman!" 020325 ... reitoei religion is humanity's quest for rationalization and understanding of the crazy world we live in. everyone is religious, whether you realize it or not. atheists dont believe in god, but they believe there is no god and thats their religion. religion isnt church or god or buddha or a cushion or ceremonies or a book, its how you interpret the world. there is no wrong religion. every religion is right in some sense. im an agnostic, i dont think there is a god, but i will never say there is no possibility of a god, because i hate to be wrong and anything is possible. 020325 ... ilikefood why are atheists and agnostics always classified together? Like if you have to take a survey of some sort and it has a religion space.. atheism and agnosticism are different. I don't claim to know the truth, and dont think anyone really knows the truth. I hate closeminded people who are so sure that they are absolutely right and won't listen to anyone else. Religion isn't supposed to cause conflicts, holy wars, whatnot... it's supposed to have positive effects for those who need/want it in their lives. Personally i could do without it, but for those who want it, it's their life. 020403 ... Syrope i was raised southern baptist... i dont go to church any more because i didnt have a fake id and "guess what i did when i was drunk last night" story to go along with everyone else in my youth group. do you see this!? religion has cast me out for being different (and sober) and i'll go to disney world and hang out with gay people any time i damn well please. 020403 ... Asmaodeus Root of War, Dischord, and Killing. Percieved as the Ultimate Good but is plainly the source of that which is negative, and dangerous. Bigotry, Ignorance, the basis of life becomes a dangerous, DEATH OBSESSED fantasy. You go to churches, you believe it is real, you think the beast is coming, and you think the beast is The enemy of God. The beast is here. We are the Beast. ANd we are THE CREATORS OF GODS. It is not really ironic. Almost everyone in the world BASES THEIR LIVES on something that is not real. Our species does not advance except when Religion is ignored. Our societies will continue to fight and fall untill Religion is phased out of people's lives. IMAGINE what a world it would be if all of the energy and money and thought put into religion were directed at REAL THINGS? Aimed at control, a boloody mix of false moral code, and opression, and lies has festered into the situation you see today in the world. EVERY WAR AND MILITARY CONFLICT ON THIS EARTH Has RELIGION at it's center. You can bet on that. I reject your false lies. We are the Top of the chain. Your gods are not real. ALLAH is not real. JEHOVAH is NOT REAL. JESUS WAS JUST A MAN. THERE IS NO SANTA CLAUSE EITHER. The Ancient Roman Gods and Goddesses were NOT REAL. As were not real those of the Egyptians, or the Greeks. The Lord Of The Rings, is NOT REAL. THE LORE OF THE ANCIENT HEBREWS HAS NO PLACE IN OUR WORLD NOW. THE MYTHS are NOT REALIt has been forced down your throat due to bad decisions made by one of the Roman Emperors, and it's INNATE TENDENCY to SPREAD by KILLING THOSE WHO WILL NOT CONVERT which was practiced for ages under the name "Crusades" Now it is done psychologically. It is Sad, You all make me sad. That is not real. 020417 ... Asmaodeus Present Company Excluded... Of Course. 020417 ... CJ the correct religion has best been explained to as the one that brings balance to your life 020417 ... Unthinker Religion has only ever twisted minds, or flattened them, or given them sharpened pointy bits. Its a virus to human society. Various orators have ferverently expressed their personal view of the world and its people, and impressed it on the uninspired. The orators are not the essence of the viral nature, they rarely created the religions with their current use in mind, i would assume. Throughout the years people have exploited those who will follow the command of one who claims to understand and exemplify an ethos. Religion has no use to me. I do not need to believe that my life has meaning. That doesn't mean i cant appreciate what selective reporting on a practical infinity of random chance has presented me. When i die, and rot, or get burned and scattered, or whatever stops my brain from functioning in the end, i will stop existing, and as Einstein said, it would be would be an afront to nature were it otherwise. Religion lets you underappreciate your life, as what will follow will compensate you, if you live by its rules. I cant fairly say this of every religion, as this thread has expanded the definition of that term considerably. But in particular christians irritate me. Our, or at least my, society, gives some sort of value to those who follow christianity, over those who dont. Religious man are you scared by our insignificance on a cosmic scale? Religion is the crutch to this fear. The religous writings that organised religion has as a legacy of its various histories are the product of various minds in eras where there was little freedom of thought, little to encourage the growth of freedom of thought. Yet the masses turn to them. Our society would be infinitely better if religion had never achieved its strangle hold. As in evolution, which christianity still tries to deny to the brains of young americans, or so i've heard, society between humans would have benifited from a variety, as opposed to those who would fit each human into set lines. To be honest, i'm just blathering now, i'm getting tired, but i'm sure i had lots of useful points in there somewhere. Someone try and filter them out please. 020927 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] Never before have I seen so much ignorance pretending to be expertise. Please understand that you understand not. 020927 ... kx21 M_theory or Butterfly of Good / Evil:- M_species of War / Terrorist_acts & M_bubble of Peace / Human_rights? 020928 ... Carlisa As John Lennon says it, RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE PEOPLE. 021101 ... Carlisa religion is the opium of the people 021101 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] Obviously... religion is a major component of our evolution. 021101 ... Jeca the purpose of religion, in its truest form, is to help people realize their full human potential-- some people really NEED religion. how selfish are you if you can't respect that? i don't have any respect, however, for anyone who does not practice what they believe in, or put ANY thought into why they believe the way they believe. You believe because you truely feel it's right? OK. Because your daddy told you so? NOT going to fly. my greatest respect goes to those who can respect other people's beliefs when they're not your own. you've gotta be pretty insecure to go attacking people just because they see things differently-- especially considering there are appx. 6 billion different versions of "how it is" out there. how can half the world be going to hell when they've never heard of it? how can we all claim "my way, or the highway?" 021102 ... taojones c'mon, git yerself some! it'll all be there in the end! everything and nothing made to fit in your pocket! Pp Oo Cc Kk Ee Tt 021201 ... kx21 The M_Butterfly which rocked the World with its Wings:- Crusade & Jihad... 021201 ... angie my mom told me last nite never to lose my faith. i really listened to her i might not care about it all that much now but... i dont ever want to turn my back on it it does make me feel better i do believe her when she says there is something there you didnt have to send me your guardian angel you need yours as much as i need mine... i sent mine back to you today i never want to lose you 030103 ... silentbob that's what we talked about until Four this morning. it was cathartic 030103 ... hope "Beware the man of one book." -Thomas Aquinas 030214 ... Simbelmyn The coolest person she knew became a clichè. Do you know why? Because the that person didn't have guidelines. That is what religion is. Don't understand? Try the "B A H A ' I F A I T H" That is NOT a clichè. And she is not. 030502 ... Grace i have no words on this today.. this i know.. i don't have to justify, or "pretty-up" for any man(person)who we are(Christians)or what we believe (in God, and the Bible)- by saying: "i hate religion" and "i hate Christians" and "i hate those who follow the Bible alone.." and "oh yea..love me,and just think i'm grand..i'll be anything 'you' want, if i say it 'your'way." or any of the above, in any version.. that's not a faith walk that's catchin a ride in someone's car like winking and showing leg for tips.. or Sally Field at the Oscars.. "You like me,you REALLY really like me!" some will do anything for applause or admiration..or just for 'fitting-in'..for fear of ..not.. or 'public image'..maybe like that short story "The Lottery", hard to recall.. ironically.. in shunning..us(we Christians) in judgeing US..and in all the sortof mean and hateful things they say and do to 'defend" their 'rights' 'against God and Religion etc"..those not-too-educated or aware non knowing, non insightful, insensitive things.. ..they come off as most of the very qualities they seem to loathe..incredibly..i am seeing.. i understand the "masse" (no pun) view they have.. doesn't make it right.. i see nothing "courageous"..there..no dignity..no 'passion'.. nothing 'unique' or even vaguely standing out in a crowd in any kind of distinct or meaningful way.. knock others down (Christians) 'religion' etc. just to be in some kind of club..no one respects them for being in anyway..(probably unconsciously..as they pat each other on the backs for sharing the 'same opinion.." of 'Christians' and their 'lives'?) well "I" don't respect anyone for "dumbing down" how they feel about..anything..Especially God Jesus Christ Christians or the Bible just to "fit in"..or out of FEAR to me that's Junior High school no offence to anyone, and nothing personal, to all.. just how i see it and i KNOW i know i am NOT alone.. guess i did have words for this today.. :) *nods 030502 ... Grace One more thing.. We (Christians..) may have Him inside of us and be lead by Him and His Holy Spirit (much as we let oursleves..) and be "lambs" But I thank GOD thankyou JESUS we STILL have minds of our OWN,in Him.. my,my.my.. www.persecution.com A link for some related world events.. peace 030502 ... Grace And don't tell me about the same cliched..tired old line..on all the "awful" things done "in the name" 'of Jesus' Come back, in a few years.. (if any of us are around *s) and tell us all the beautiful,wonderful amazing, selfless acts of human kindness and decency that go on "every single day" (and maybe in YOUR neighborhood..*s) IN Christ's name.. No one really ever brings that up.. Half the time they don't even know.. They're too busy straining gnats to notice grace etc. as they're being spared so much so often and prayed for by so many nameless faceless who care for them deeply And would go out on a limb for them, for the sake of Christ while they're arguing doctrines and contentions in 'apologetics' or busy about 'cutting' someone down to look 'good'..in leather chairs..or lavender bedrooms.. Or waxing on some 'Christians of old' who have nothing to do with 'the rest of us'.that have come and gone since time.. Like Helen of Troy,or the Flintstones.. THAT far back.. Anyway.. Again..truly not against 'anyone here' Or anyone, here, personally..Forgive.. Please no ill-will towards you or anyone. I don't like contentions. Sorry..*s Feel fully free to post anti-Christian sentiment..(Tho you may think its not..*S) Soldiers died for it And other important people.. Unnamed.. 030502 ... grendel As for all the hundreds, if not thousands of people who were burned as "witches," the millions of Jews and other non-Christians who through one means or another were marginalized, mistreated and/or massacred for not betraying their own faiths and switching sides, and the various peoples of the "New World" whose art, history, and cultures were frequently destroyed for being "pagan." ...well, I'm sure they are glad to know that they are nothing but a tired cliche to you. It's attitudes like that that allowed for such quick and easy rationalization of some of history's crimes in the first place. 030502 ... Grace ''...well, I'm sure they are glad to know that they are nothing but a tired cliche to you. '' your quote above.. i never said that at all i was speaking about CHRISTIANS as for your rhetoric (why-bcause its not my point..) your words judge you and you have a world to back u up look around u.. bye 030502 ... Grace ''It's attitudes like that that allowed for such quick and easy rationalization of some of history's crimes in the first place. '' again, ur words above.. u seem to know enough about 'your' views as per anything i've said here regarding Christians or me,for that matter,since i don't know you.. you know NOTHING.. now ,close youe eyes what did you see? that's what you know of Christians and me *S byee 030502 ... grendel YOU::: And don't tell me about the same cliched..tired old line..on all the "awful" things done "in the name" 'of Jesus' ME:::: ''...well, I'm sure they are glad to know that they are nothing but a tired cliche to you. '' YOU AGAIN::: your quote above.. i never said that at all ................................. oh, silly me to let something like historical fact get in the way of a little dogma 030507 ... . "everyone talks about the failure of christianity...but christianity has never failed because it has never been honestly attempted." - some guy 030507 ... Now you get it? _Religion_ is a Device used by people to control and manipulate society. _Jesus_ is a Man Used by God to free people from religion. 030927 ... goodbadreligion the secrets of christianity are all expressed in detail in the book "the davinci code." things arent always as they seem. 030927 ... smurfus rex "an idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it." I don't remember who said that, but I always think of it when this discussion rolls around. Christianity ITSELF, Islam ITSELF, Judaism ITSELF, "Organized Religion" ITSELF, as ideas, are not responsible for the people who believe in them. In your vitriolic assaults on these belief systems, are you attacking the ideas or the followers? Identify your real enemy so that you may coordinate your defense better. As for me, I pay my own bills, I cook my own food, I wash my own clothes, I write my own rosaries, I compose my own rituals, I burn my own incense, I follow my own path. Some may call me a cafeteria spiritualist, but I don't care. I learned what I wanted about whichever major religious systems I wanted, and took the best of what I found and made it my own. A Jeet Kune Do approach to spirituality. I may think Judaism is anachronistic and legalistic with a fetish for numerology. There is a kernal of useful wisdom in there somewhere. I may think that Islam is vaguely chauvinistic and slightly schizophrenic with an odd fear of and reverance for female beauty. There is a kernal of useful wisdom in there somewhere. I may think Christianity is escapist, idealistic and paternalistic, with strange undertones of cannibalism and vampirism. There is a kernal of wisdom in there somewhere. If what CJ said above is true, that "true" religion is what brings balance to one's life, then perhaps I have found mine hidden between the lines of the other major (and minor) religions of this world. The distillations of these religions, when mixed together into one elixir, is what makes them palatable for me. But that's just my way. Who am I to tell you what's right for you? There's more than one road that will take you into the City. 030928 ... SeedS of LighT Don't you care about which one is the truth, though? You seem to have educated yourself on the weaknesses of each major belief system, but you act as if they are all merely ideas with similar themes... What about truth? Ideas are powerful and can change the world, but truth is substantial and cannot be changed. Can a religion be TRUE? Let's think about this... It's obvious that there is a true creator, most open-minded people can agree to that reasonably, right? A casual glance at science and nature reveals that God's fingerprints are everywhere. So, if that's true, where do humans fit in? It seems like part of the grand design for human beings to "wonder" about God. Is that an evolved trait? We seem to be able to grasp that there is a higher purpose to all things, after all, you did not create yourself, did you? So why are we here? That very question, which seems to be ingrained into each person's psyche, is what most religions attempt to satisfy. And I can't find a RELIGION that does so effectively. So if religion can't explain things, what is the purpose for our quest for understanding? Wouldn't it be cruel for a creator to create beings who are designed to ponder their own existence, and not let them in on the Secret? Well, even though religions, having been manipulated and controlled by men, have really botched things up, that doesn't mean we can't still know the TRUTH! But in order to attain the truth, we must quest for it and seek it. There's much work to be done to differentiate between clever lies and the solid truth. The good news is, the more you seek the truth, the better you'll get at it! After exercise, your skill grows stronger. I have quested for truth in this same way and found it! And I feel I would be doing a disservice to you if I didn't share with you the truth that I discovered... HOWEVER, once I tell you, you cannot just HAVE it, you know what I mean? You still must conduct your own quest, and find the truth... Now, I'm not saying that you can "find your own truth", because that is nonsense... Truth isn't so trivial a thing that it can be conformed to your own expectations of it. Truth exists, and cannot be changed my humankind. The only weapons against truth are lies. So if you try to conform Truth into your own limited human understanding, trying to fit the round truth into the square hole so to speak, then you are simply choosing to believe in a lie. All arguments can be settled by breaking them into truths and lies. Anything that cannot be settled in this way is not really worth debating. Am I lying? Light shines ..t.h.r.o.u.g.h.. darkness. Ok, back to my point... The truth that I've discovered isn't a religion, it's a RELATIONSHIP. A relationship with One most of you are familiar with, but few actually know, regardless of what religion you claim to be. You see, the Truth that I've discovered is in the BIBLE. (Remember, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourselves!) The Bible is God's way of communicating to us the answer to our question: Why are we here? And the answer He gave us is simple: We are created in God's own image, (3-D with a mind, a soul, and a spirit). Our spirit is so we can communicate with God, who is a Spirit. The purpose for our creation is for God to have a relationship with us! Not a 'show up at church on Sunday' kind of relationship, but a deeply intimate, personal and enriching communion with the Creator of the Universe. God wants this... He Loves humans like a passionate obsession. So, He provided a way for us to enter into this relationship, and that Way is through Jesus Christ! You already know the rest, I'm sure... (about how God is perfect so it would be impossible for him to contact sin (evil) in any way, therefore, through Christ, we are made righteous in God's sight, etc... etc...) (If you don't know the rest, get your hands on a Bible as soon as you can, or ask me and I'll tell you...) Religion is not the answer. A Relationship with the Father through Jesus Christ is the answer. This is what I believe. But more importantly... It's the Truth. It's important that you don't just go believing things that people tell you! That is foolish... true wisdom comes from checking the facts for yourself! 031204 ... smurfus rex *sigh* here we go again. first of all, I have to recognize your efforts in witnessing to me. I know that it takes a certain amount of courage to lay your beliefs out in the open for public scrutiny. However, I'm afraid I have to tell you that such efforts are wasted on me. Apparently, my education has gotten in the way of "the Truth", because I do not accept one single road to Divinity. And yes, I have read the Bible, Old and New Testaments, during my religion classes in undergrad. Here's the thing: You speak of the purpose of human existence, which is to have a personal, intimate relationship with the Creator. I disagree. If this were true, then it would explain why God can't seem to prevent natural and manmade disasters...because all his time is spent having intimate personal relationships with everyone in the world. Sure, it's God we're talking about, but even 6 billion voices in your perfect Ear have *got* to be just a little distracting. No, I believe in a version of the "watchmaker" God, meaning the Creator constructed his little terrestrial machine and then set it in motion and left it to run on its own. Now, a watchmaker doesn't have an intimate and personal relationship with every spring and every cog in the machine. He pays attention to the parts that are broken and, after fixing them, sets the machine back into motion. In my world, this world, this is how God works. If you are broken, he will help fix you. If you are not broken, he will stand by until he is really needed. I speak as though God is an anthropomorphic entity...this is simply for illustration. God, in my belief, is simply a Holy Spirit...a feeling or a force that is beyond comparison, beyond description, and beyond understanding at a human level. To even imply that you, as a human, know what God wants, what he wills, what he plans, how he feels, or why he acts (or doesn't act), is to put yourself on par with God as his peer, or even his superior. You claim to know the mind of God, a claim which loosely places you in the company of psychic mediums (not that there's anything wrong with psychics). God can, in my belief, be understood to be a feeling...like the one you get when you want to help someone else. When you put someone else's needs before your own, this is God. When you help someone without regard for compensation or reward, this is God (and Boy Scouts :)). When you help someone surpass you in skills or abilities because you simply want the best for that person, this is God. In other words, God is service to others before service to oneself. The Gospel of Thomas records that Jesus said something to the effect of, "The Kingdom of God is within you, and all around you. Pick up a stone, and I am there. Split a piece of wood, and you will find me." I take this to mean that the "Kingdom of God" is a community, whether local, state, national, or global, of people who work in service to each other, who take care of each other, who look out for each other. Therefore, it is my belief that the purpose of human existence is not to have a "personal relationship" to an anthropomorphic spiritual figurehead, so that I can further emphasize the distance between me and my fellow man ("this is MY personal relationship with God, not YOURS!"), but rather, to have a personal relationship, at some level, with my neighbors. If I get along well with my fellow humans, then I will be taken care of. God Incarnate will not be the one helping me change a tire. God Incarnate will not be the one to stop someone from breaking into my house. God Incarnate will not be the one helping me up after I've tripped and fallen on my face. No, the ones helping me will be my fellow human beings, the ones with the Spirit in them, the ones who understand. But see, this is how it is in my world. This is how I understand things as I look out of my own eyes. My eyes see my world, not yours, otherwise I'd have your eyes. So really, I can't say whether any of the above applies to you at all. But it applies to me, and that should be enough. Perhaps that is my personal relationship with God after all, but I don't need you to define the parameters of my relationship or identify the intermediaries you think should be present. My truth is just that...mine. Not yours. And your truth is just that...yours. Not mine. All I ask is that you consider that the next time you witness to someone. Think of how you feel when someone tells you that "you're doing it wrong", when you think it's right. Saying that there's only one way to get to know God is like saying there's only one way to drive a car, and you know how you feel when you have a backseat driver in your ear. It's good that you've found your truth. It's good that you're confident in your beliefs. It's good that you're passionate about your message. It's also good to know the proper time, the proper place, and the proper audience for your witnessing. Maybe this was the time. Maybe this was the place. Maybe this is the audience. I really don't know. You may have won a convert out there. But you won't win me. I appreciate your effort, I recognize the attempt, but I'm just as confident in my beliefs as you are. Thank you for your post. I had to dust off a few things that I hadn't visited since undergrad. :) I apologize for the length...this subject just gets me all fired up. :) 031205 ... liz sure, religion might be created by man - but the truth isn't. 031230 ... SeedS of LighT Well, first of all smurfus rex, let me say that I am very impressed with your reply. There are no need for apologies, because if more people took the time to think through their stances on various issues, as you clearly have done, and then take even more time to write it out in an eloquent, intelligent and peaceful manner, again, as you have done, this world would be a much better place! I thank you for your recognition of my percieved courage for "witnessing" to you, however, I didn't look at it that way... I don't try to convert people, because, as I said, each of us must make up our own mind about our eternal destiny. I only try to stimulate people's thoughts on the subject. The only way I believe I can "convert" a person is to Love them with such selflessness that they are compelled to discover the reasons for my joy and prosperity. But since I can't do that over the internet, my ambition is in the intellectual/philosophical/spiritual discussions that ensue. Especially with mature individuals such as yourself, who do not get angered by conversation, and don't find it necessary to lash out out against me... (I thank you!) Also, I enthusiastically agree with much of what you said. (But, not all of it). I would like to offer some thoughts on the questions you posed. I hope you don't mind. To begin, you mentioned above that you feel "God can't seem to prevent natural and manmade disasters..." This was interesting to me, because I believe if a being, such as God, were to have the ability to Create a Universe complete with Life and Time... Then He must be omnipotent. omniscient and omnipresent. All powerful, all knowing and everywhere always. ( I'll spare you the biblical references) He therefore could stop any event from happening, in fact, he would be unable, in his omniscience, to not know about it long before it happened. Some people may die, but I'll bet they were given a way out of the situation, yet still chose their coarse of action. I believe there is an Enemy whose favorite game is to cause people to blame God for these catastrophic events. Everybody dies, but it's not God's fault... God originally set it up for us to live and not die... Our own actions (attributed to our Free Will) are to blame for many disasters, including death, but even then, death is not the end but the beginning. You then continued, "because all his time is spent..." again, I have a different viewpoint... I believe that God is outside of time... time is relative, and a by-product of the creation of space (according to modern physics theories)... God is never on time, or spending time because He is not IN time. He exists outside the confines of time. And we as humans have more than 6 billion nerve endings, but we sure know it when one is hurting, or feeling good, without even thinking about it... Why then can't God be aware of His body? I agree with your watchmaker analogy, but I also believe that God is Love... he is passionate about His watch....almost obsessive! He can't get enough of peeking inside to see what's going on... and messing with the gears every now and then just to test it's limitations... In the end, it's only a temporary creation, the watch will stop working and be thrown away... I see God as more of a farmer... He is passionate about growing Living things. He plants the seeds, nurtures them, waters them, grows them and tends to his crops. He prunes when necessary, but all his interventions seek to aid the growth of his plants for one purpose, to produce abundant fruit! I so enthusiastically agree with you that God is a Holy Spirit... if only religious people could figure that part out! But I believe that we humans have a spirit too... and through spirit to spirit communication it is possible to "hear" God's Holy Spirit and know His will for our lives. This doesn't make us superior, but subjects in His dominion. Nothing could be better for us than God's will for our lives. And yes, the opposite side of the spectrum would involve "hearing" from spirits that are not of God. (Mediums, etc..) (I have encountered God's presence via the Holy Spirit, and I have heard Him "speak" to me, personally. Without experiencing these things, I would only be grasping at possibilities and guessing at what could be the truth... This is why I speak as if I know the truth... because I have experienced it.) By reading your words, I gathered that you believe that God lives through us in the form of selfless acts of love and kindness... Is that correct? If so, I totally agree with you. (But I don't think it stops there... there are much more powerful things that I have seen in addition to good deeds (miracles, prophecies, healings, etc...) I also agree with your thoughts on the Gospel of Thomas... and I ask you this... If you and I are members of a monarchical Kingdom, living in service to one another, having the authority of the "kingdom within us", wouldn't we also be living in service to that authority, of God? I do think there are many ways to know God and He will certainly meet you where YOU are at. You don't have to go to Him as some religions claim. Now, I completely respect your beliefs and I apologize if I seem preachy or whatever. I certainly do not know all the answers. I know next to nothing, if fact. I simply know minor truths... only because I first sought them, and secondly tested them. I think it would be a waste to believe in something without knowing for sure! On the other hand, the only way to know some things for sure is to simply Choose to believe. You have a great deal of understanding... I would guess that you are wise, as well. I am curious. Have you embraced Christianity as Truth at some point in your past? There are fruits that we develop in our character only by exposure to God's Holy Spirit. You seem to posess some of those fruits. I wonder... Well, its getting late. I hope I haven't offended you, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on these points... 040103 ... smurfus rex Let's just say I've had some practice with debates like these on the Library Lawn at Oklahoma State. This isn't the first time I've run across someone who was adamant about sharing what they called the Truth. :) I'd like to reiterate that I don't perceive God as an anthropomorphic entity, i.e. a monarch. God is beyond human perception, beyond human description, beyond human understanding. God, to me, is the spirit of goodwill in the human community. Dare I say..."communism"? But not the Stalinist kind. :) When I spoke about God being unable to prevent natural and manmade disasters, I may have been unclear. I was speaking in reference to the amount of effort that would be needed to maintain 6 billion intimate and personal relationships with every person on the planet. No, in fact I believe that God has the ability to do anything He wants with this world (it IS his watch, after all). However, if he were to prevent such things as hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, and wildfires, the cycle of life and death would be irreparably disrupted. This is where I start leaning toward Taoism. Humans cannot know what "good" is if they do not have an opposite, "evil", to compare it to. I have found that many people have a hard time accepting that God must allow certain perceived evils to occur in order for a greater good to come to pass. I had a professor who proposed an idea that was radical to me at the time I heard it...that perhaps, instead of carpentry being Jesus' trade, farming was his actual vocation. His basis lay in the tendency for Jesus to use concepts of farming in his parables. I think I'll stick to the watchmaker analogy for God, but I continue to think of his prophets more as farmers instead. When I spoke of the Kingdom of God, I didn't make mention of a monarch in charge of it. Yes, this is traditionally how we think of kingdoms today, but I think in this case, the kingdom is more communist than monarchical. And when I say communist, I mean it in the sense of community, not Stalinism. So, if we are in service to others, we are, in fact, living in service to the authority of the kingdom, which is the spirit of the community, rather than God. In your reply, you mentioned an Enemy that caused people to blame God for disasters. Here's where my Taoist tendencies surface again. This may be difficult to accept, but I think God and the Enemy are the same force. Here's why: things cannot live if other things do not die. God set up the watch so that it would run, and that necessarily means that some things have to die in the process. The goal of human existence is to learn, adapt, and survive. Choices are presented to humans so that they can learn from the mistakes that may result. Once they learn the best choice and adapt their behaviors accordingly, they survive another day. Temptation is not the Enemy, it's the classroom. But to the comfortable Christian, there is NO WAY that God can be evil, as they understand evil to be. But again, God is beyond human understanding, so how can we be so certain? What if God is not just "perfect", but "perfect balance"? I would hesitate to describe my self as "wise", though others have described me that way before. I'm not sure I have a great deal of understanding either, but I do study and I do ask questions. Whether that leads to understanding, I can't say right now. As for my background, I grew up in a rural farming area in Texas and was part of a Church of the Brethren/Mennonite congregation. My mom grew up in a Disciples of Christ congregation in a mid-sized urban area in Oklahoma. My sister and I were "dedicated" to the church, a process that was never fully explained to me, and we went to Vacation Bible School every summer until I was, I don't know, 12 or something. As we grew up, my mom never restricted my exploration of other cultures, other societies, and other religions. However, I think she was a little surprised when I announced I wanted to become Buddhist after I wrote a report on Gautama in grade school. I was "saved" one morning during a semi-coercive ceremony at a Baptist church a friend went to, but it felt forced and hollow. So I continue to explore to this day. I'll know if I find the answer when I die, I suppose. 040103 ... SeedS of LighT That's interesting... I understand why you've drawn the conclusion about God/Enemy as being from the same source. I, too have wandered down that thought-path and pondered the same thing. I guess it was the process of defining what Good And Evil are that lead me to reconsider. Since I do believe in Good and Evil (as forces in the universe that are opposites, just like positive and negative), a perfect being must be pure, and thus either purely positive (Good) or purely negative (evil). I also reasoned that God is infinite, which came full circle and harmonized with biblical doctrine, which states not only that God is Perfect, And Good, And Pure, and Eternal, but also that He (because of all those things) is entitled to all that there is of a certain substance known as "Glory". Thus, in order for Him to attain maximum efficiency in harnessing that "Glory", he created an inferior entity to serve as a blaring contrast to His Perfect Nature. You mentioned that part about your professor's views on Jesus' vocation. My thoughts: I believe that Jesus used elements in his parables that had to fit all of these criteria: 1.) Timeless Concepts 2.) Simple to grasp if studying, yet hard to understand if you're just standing in a crowd hearing it for the first time. 3.) Analogous to His Message 4.) True (Logically) (i.e. Not fallacies) Otherwise... they wouldn't have lasted the intense scrutinizations over the past 2000 years. His parables covered many topics however, besides just farming, such as: Wedding Feasts (He is the Groom, the Church is His Bride) Investing (Use wisely what you have been given control over) Sheparding (Which could be considered farming now, but then it was a totally separate occupation) (He is the Shepard, tending to His Flock) Well, the list goes on, (Light, Fishing, Familial Reconciliations, Battle, Treasure, Business Management, Hospitality, Politics, Baking, Sociological Anomalies, Medicinal and finally Farming Parables). About communism... I agree with you. Communal Living is the most harmonious sociological structure we have ever seen. If only it didn't rely on the absence of corruption, and the strict rules implemented in order to maintain the absence of corruption (which leads to legalism and eventually rebellion) Perhaps one day humans can live together in total peace and community. Thank you for sharing your background. I am not familiar with any of those denominations, I've heard of them, though :) I think Christians do a tremendous disservice to this planet when they try to use forceful scare tactics in order to round up a few converts, as I've heard about in some baptist and other churches. I can tell you when I was "saved" about a year ago, I had never and have never since felt such joy, peace, love and wholeness as I did when I first encountered the presence of the Living God. It was truly life altering. I can see if it had happened in a non Spirit-Filled Church I may have been turned away from spiritual activity indefinately. I'll bet your mom is praying for you though. (assuming she is still a believer). I give kudos to her for not acting rashly and disowning you or something, as I've seen other parents do when their children explore alternative avenues. You know that deep down she knows that you'll return. I wish you well on your exploratory journey! May you indeed find truth and fulfillment! 040112 ... wordsayer religion is the best way to show our hate. take it away and something would take its place 040305 ... white_wave sometimes i dislike that i don't have a religion. mostly when people ask me what mine is. i celebrate Christmas & Hannakuh as an amateur. i'm not an atheist. i'm not a morning person. church or temple is just too freakin' early for me. i like not having a religion. because everytime someone chooses one, they exclude others that haven't chosen that religion. i don't think anyone should be excluded. it seems to be the cause of political suffering over the entire history of human existence. but i contradict myself when i say i believe in god. i see angels in my head. i can't explain why, when, or where it all comes from. it's not necessary to have the answer. 040305 ... dudeinanigloo Back in the Stone Age, when humans were beginning to develop tools, they wanted to know how things worked, and how they happened. People back then saw the Aurora Borealis, or lightning, and they had no idea how, or why it happened. So, they created this being called GOD who was all powerful, all wise, and who controlled everything that happened on their world. This was when we were not advanced enough to explain what was happening around us. Now we know that the Aurora Borealis occurs because high energy particles from the solar winds strike the ionosphere, and release high energy photons which emit different wavelengths of light. We also know that lightning occurs from negatively charged ions in storm clouds jumping down to the positively charged ions on the ground. Since we can now explain all these events, there is no longer any reason for religion to exist. To reiterate, religion was just a way of explaining occurences or objects that nobody could understand. Nowadays, religion tells people that if you question the existence of your LORD, that you will be punished, or that GOD creates and does all. It is a way of keeping people from wanting to know the scientific explanations. Some people say that "we can never find all the answers", or "if there is no GOD, how was the universe created?". There is some logic to these statements. Because, pessimistic, but true, humanity will spend hundreds of years finding the "answers", and never come close to finding them all. Also, everyone must realize that from the data that we have gatherered from microwave radiation decay, the universe is almost 14 billion years old. Modern science has existed for about 200 years, which is about 1/70 000 of the age of the universe. Finding out how the universe was created from analyzing cosmic radiation is impossible. We don't have all the answers yet, but the human quest for perfection is a perfect incentive to look for as many as we can. - - - - - - - - - - - - - TO CONCLUDE: If we are going to get anywhere as a species, religion needs to be PHASED OUT. Enough said. 040305 ... pete as a student of comparitive religions if i was to say my religion was anything but comparitive religions i would be lying, and i would be destroying my chances of understanding the religions i am learning about. at the same time i can be a critical cultural relativist, criticising what needs criticising, or what doesn't add up. religion is not meant to be logical though, so contradicitions are really a big deal, but to argue that christianity is more valid than hinduism, ancient sumerian religion, or even science (or visa versa) would be destructive to my education, and to understand why people do what they do. what is myth? all is myth.. 040317 ... dakota I've experienced too much to doubt that there is a God. So much has gone on with religion throughout the centuries with people agruing about who is right and who is wrong. But that is not what religion is about . . . who is right and who is wrong. Religion is ment to teach us good morals. To tell the difference between good and evil. To help us battle the war we have been battling for centuries. Good vs. Evil. Religion is there to remind us that we are strong. That we are capable. That we are special. I find it hard to believe that we just happened and formed by chance. How can you watch the sun rise and set without feeling that there is something more to just being here? 040317 ... dakota I've experienced too much to doubt that there is a God. So much has gone on with religion throughout the centuries with people agruing about who is right and who is wrong. But that is not what religion is about . . . who is right and who is wrong. Religion is ment to teach us good morals. To tell the difference between good and evil. To help us battle the war we have been battling for centuries. Good vs. Evil. Religion is there to remind us that we are strong. That we are capable. That we are special. I find it hard to believe that we just happened and formed by chance. How can you watch the sun rise and set without feeling that there is something more to just being here? 040317 ... dudeinanigloo Because, Dakota, it's how I was brought up. I don't believe in miracles, luck, quarma, chance, or fate. Events happen how they do because they are influenced by previous ones. For example, if you get a royal flush in a game of poker, it is because the cards were arranged in a certain way before the game even began, and the ways that the cards were shuffled around determined their place in the deck later. It also depends on how the cards were dealed, too. Who the dealer starts dealing to determines who will have the best hand. If you get a royal flush, it is because the cards were arranged in your favour. Events like these happen without the possibility of anyone knowing the future results. The way that they will turn out again depends on previous actions. Scientific experiments, on the other hand, have been done over and over again, and if the quantities and conditions are similar to previous experiments, then the experiment will yield similar results. I would also like to correct my previous post. There are some religions which are not based on mindless assumptions. Buddhism, for example, is based on teachings by an ordinary Chinese man who formed his own ideas about life. Buddhism teaches you how to live your life, how to interact with people and your environment, and to respect all living things. It does not teach your what to believe. Religions that teach you what to believe are the ones that are dragging our society down. 040407 ... elisabeth42 Religion is manufactured spirituality, philosophy, and purpose. It's an easy way out. Limit your mind to the doctrines of one religion, and you miss out on a very personal journey in life that may at times seem difficult and scary but ultimately leaves you with a sense of fulfillment, peace, wisdom, and clarity unlike any other. That's what I believe from my experiences, at least. Many religions discourage tolerance and open-mindedness, and this has lead to war, suicide, homicide, pain, suffering, guilt, fear, etc. I wouldn't have a problem with religion if it encouraged tolerance. I have my own set of spiritual ideas and beliefs, but I like to respect those who disagree with me, because all of this is personal, and who am I to say what's right and what's wrong? But I have a hard time respecting any religion that teaches its followers not to respect others in return. To each his own. When people try to convert me, it shows me that they think my thoughts and beliefs are invalid. Although I don't agree with them I know their thoughts and beliefs are valid and I won't condemn them or try to change them. I expect that in return. Religion and spirituality are man's attempt at explaining the unknown, and in the case of religion, providing rules and consequences related to the explanation. A belief is faith in an opinion. How could anybody punish, kill, condemn, dislike or even disapprove of somebody for having a different opinion about the explanation of the Unknown? Do you really know what will happen after you die? Neither do I. While we're here together and alive, let's put our differences aside and be friendly, because it feels better that way; spreading love instead of fear. 040523 ... pete i went to a church service today. i cant remember the last time i was in a church. really, it has to have been over 5 years atleast and i'm only 18. i went with my friend katy to the anglican church near my house. she is anglican and i was baptized into the holy roman church at the united church (a protestant sect) of canada, which basically means that i could take part in the entire service. i tried to focus on the energies, but it was pretty low key. i mean the 'energy' levels (used for lack of a better term)... the communion bread was wierd. it stuck to the top of my mouth and didn't dissolve for a while. the wine was sweet. ive never taken part in the eucharist before today, and i dont know what to think about it. considering i dont think of my self as a christian and most of my metaphysical views go against most doctrine, though could probaly be absorbable or compatatble with those of the church if i thought about it enough, i found it a bit hypocritical on my part. i think the most powerful part of the service was when everyone went around and shook eachother's hands wishing them peace... 040523 ... phil Turn sunday service into a fundraiser for shiny candle holders and dumb statues sitting around in flower arrangements then close the doors at night so noone can get a glass of water or some rest. Nowadays people stop off at gas stations. ` ` ` F ` ` ` ` ` ` ` o ` ` ` ` ` ` o ` ` ` ` ` ` d ` ` ` Gas&Beer ` ` ` C ` ` ` ` ` ` i ` ` ` ` ` ` g ` ` ` ` ` ` a ` ` ` ` ` ` r ` ` ` ` ` ` e ` ` ` ` ` ` t ` ` ` ` ` ` t ` ` ` ` ` ` e ` ` ` ` ` ` s ` ` ` 040523 ... dudeinanigloo The only times I have ever been inside a church were at various choir performances, and a funeral. Other than that, I find no reason for me to enter a church. 040528 ... kx21 A "Spin" around_and_across "not_just_an_opiate"... *** * Dollars and Cents *** Can the Religion evolve or revolve without "Dollars_and_Cents"? Why_not? 040730 ... phil how can you respect yourself if you believe some higher power is controlling your life. That isn't going to lead you to make rational decisions. If you think inspiration is coming from anywhere but inside your fleshy forhead you are bound to run into some problems. Example: when you think about other people on this world. You are going to think you have a connection to the divine, something above and beyond all people. When, in truth, it is only a connection with your own mind, and that you are a limited creature, solely held within yourself. You are going to believe that other people are worthless. You are going to miss the obvious truth that we all hold something unique and greater than any individual, ever. And that you have something to learn from the people in your lives, and nothing from yourself ((aka God) 050105 ... missionary We are all bound to run into some problems in life. That's life. It can be quite burdensome. But we don't have to go through it alone. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a person surrendering their lives to the Leadership of God. God is in control of my life. I know this to be true, but more importantly, I believe it. But he didn't just take over my life. I had to consciously yield control over to Him. As a result He has significantly lessened my problems. Order, not Chaos, now reigns in my life. I have peace. I enjoy total freedom from societal maladies such as fear, rage, guilt, anxiety, worry and depression. I maintain healthy, productive relationships with people. It's a tremendously liberating feeling to place your complete trust in God. You may label it insane, or foreign, or whatever. But to me it's the very foundation of sanity. For me to have my priorities in order, living in joy, serving others in peace, pursuing love with all others, there is nothing wrong with this lifestyle whatsoever. Life is good! I've seen enough broken people, disordered, chaotic lives, infested with issues, to know that I'm not one of them. They need God so desperately, yet unfortunately, they are too proud to let God in, they wallow in misery unnecessarily. I only changed one thing in my life and it dramatically changed everything else. The one thing that made the difference in my life was surrendering to the authority of Jesus. He said, "Whoever clings to this life will lose it, and whoever loses this life will save it." I can trust God with my life because He is good, and He only wants the best things for me. Life truly is better with Jesus, otherwise, why else would anyone become a Christian? God sent His only son down here to die so that we wouldn't have to. Then, He raised Him from the dead to prove that He really was God's son. God knows our problems, and He wants to help. He's just waiting for our permission. 050105 ... phil If God really has solved the Death problem, I haven't heard any news about it. sorry. I want the best things for you too. I also maintain healthy relationships with people. The foundation of my sanity is the simple fact that I am alive, and therefore, have these things. And from there you can go into different tangents of real life discovery, and that gets exciting. I share your hobby in searching for truth from a higher power. I however never experienced a complete release from fear, rage, guilt, anxiety, worry, and depression. It seems people without emotions are often mean people. For me God causes fear more than he "liberates" it. Being lead by God is something that appears in history. God led people to die in wars and die on crosses, and I certainly don't want my death. I think this is some sort of brainwashing. The very definition of God is everythingness, and it cannot be disproven, but I don't feel it can "lead" you either, in any special way. You are a part of God, and everything you see as God is inside yourself. You just need to explore the possibilities of what that actually is, and define it for yourself. 050106 ... morals 050106 ... missionary Well, I can understand your viewpoint. And without getting into it too much further, let me just say I *have* been led by God so many times. As in, I've been in situations, faced with difficult decisions where I did not know the right course of action to take. So I asked, and God gave me a solution. God_speaks_to_me. My current vocation is a prime example. I would never have chosen to go into this profession, but God led me to do it. And it has been amazingly successful. Wow! God is so awesome. I experience peace, not in my emotions, but in my spirit. Most of us are so out of touch with our spiritual selves that we are numb to any spiritual stimuli. For me, it's not an issue of brainwashing. I employ my full abilities of logic and reason, intelligent discernment, wise judgment, rational thought and sound problem solving skills when I think about my life with God vs. my life without God. Living with God as a (The, rather) major part of my life makes the most sense. For me, its about choosing to believe and remaining faithful no matter what happens. Call it Trust. Faith. And for me, its been the most amazing benefit life has offered yet. I've stood on the side of the fence where I viewed people like I am now as weak minded. But now, to me, that seems closer to brainwashing. TV Society "brainwashed" me, if you will, into thinking there was something wrong with me if I believed in something bigger and better than myself. "Believe in yourself" they chant monotonously. Now I can see that to stand where I am now takes strength of mind, not weakness. Sure, I have to endure ridicule from others, but its well worth it. I don't care what others think about me anymore. I've seen what the world has to offer, and what godless striving can lead to, and all I can say is "no, thank you." I've never been happier, never been better off than I am now, safe and secure in the hands of My God. 050106 ... Seeds of Light I read this in the Bible this morning and thought it was relevant to the topic of "Religion". 2 Timothy 3:1-5 "You should also know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control; they will be cruel and have no interest in what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. You must stay away from people like that." 050106 ... alice I don't really like the idea that people are inherently evil and deserve to be punished for that... I was reading Nicholas Nickleby today, and it said somewhere something to the effect of "people who think everyone's inherently evil and corrupt generally are so themselves" - try to reconcile their own lack of morals or whatnot with the reassurance that everyone else's jsut as bad i don't actually think that pertains to the original sin thing.. it just came to mind 050106 ... phil There was this one girl, who believed that I didn't like her. When in fact I did and we both set about proving it. While neither of us suceeded, yet, I've found a good outcome. It helped me cut a lot of hurtful people out of my life and gained a lot more patience. 050109 ... feeling wee bit peeved As much as I want to say religion, any religion, even idiosyncratic dogma that releases you from personal culpability, is fucked, I admit that religion is a just carrot and you can decide what to do with it whatever you choose. You can use it to prod yourself along by trickery and baiting. You can use it as a dildo and fuck yourself or others with it, or you can eat it. 050121 ... krupt haha, like id ever try to define this one... 050130 ... krupt haha, like id ever try to define this one... 050130 ... anne-girl is difficult, for me because there are fantastic beautiful people who are wiser than I who are deeply religions and believe things that I can't (i'm talking christianity here) and i was brought up to believe in christ and such, and that it was a beautiful gorgeous idea, full of love and hope and it is, it was but i can't believe it... there's too much darkness there, I refuse to believe in hell and religion has problems but they started out with good intentions (the road to hell is paved...) it's terrible 050628 ... sevenmorethaneight As a member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (venganza.org), I must say I find the lack of FSM in our public schools very dicouraging. 051005 ... Ishutan It appears as such. Earth is a stage, playing field for sad displays of humanity. I am imperfection, sadistic, inverted desires molding my personal piece of clay-soul. Basically we're all a bunch of kids... given a class room without restraint within which to play. We are also handed our souls, in the form of clay, something we can shape and mold. We choose which room to play in, and what friends to play with... this partially shapes our souls. We choose what tools to use and what style... We choose to use force or fragility... We choose who to give our clay to... which teacher-God. I just want to die... get this impending finality over with. Problem is I can't speed it up or I may ruin my "graduation"... get sent to the wrong ending. Human form is sad and so limited in the focal spectrum... I mean seriously, I think of myself on this earth and I see what I am and what I could be... all shaped by humanity. Then I think of myself in "Heaven" and I know that I would not be clean and shiny and shameless... that is something that needs to change. 060327 ... Seraphmodel02 Religion as defined by the Bible is giving money to the poor, and looking after widows/orphans. Interesting fact that... 060923 ... the end I went to a catholic school for the first nine years of my life. I was always that oddball of the class. I didn't have any friends until around grade 6, but when he just mysteriously vanished, the 15 guys in my class decided to kick the shit out of me in gym class. The teachers didn't give a shit, either. How catholic of them all. 060924 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. 061115 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. 061115 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] sorry to repeat myself 061115 ... ONE LOVE hello quantic computer ! religion... one. (U2) its called love and respect, first love yourself. its not that complexed its simple. why are people still singing about Jesus? it was a long time ago.. these days pleople can do break dancing... some people can do amazing back flips.. some people have great minds to make a computer work... these are all miricles in themselves. get happy ... play a favorite song. 070315 ... ewe do you think it's possible to have a religulous_orgasm ? 101116 ... nuff sed 6 to da 9 im out People in the western hemisphere often think that religion is "god theory" which is a product of a belief in a 'god' or 'gods'. I take a less intuitive route and suggest that belief in a 'god' or 'gods' is a product of our tendency to have religious beliefs and that our religious theories are merely formed around the focus of 'god' or 'gods'. In other words, I think that the 'gods' are a product of our specific religious beliefs rather than religious beliefs simply being fleshed-out explanatory "'god' theory" surrounding the 'god' or 'gods' which serve as the central focus of the religion. I think the former 'god'-centric view is an illusion that is derived from a largely westernized parochial bias. The extreme version of this western parochial bias is displayed for us in what some western theologians and religionists frame as what constitutes a religion. Here's the extreme biased version. "Religion is the reverence and observances of the one true creator 'god' that created the universe and life in the universe, who is largely benevolent and has a plan for each of us and will divinely intervene if it deems it appropriate (Divine Providence)". Notice how such religionist "deck-stacking" automatically eliminates most of the other religions of the earth from consideration simply by insisting that this arbitrary definition is and must be THE definition of religion. It's apparent that this definition wasn't created to describe the world's religions as much as to arbitrarily eliminate the competition. It arbitrarily eliminates polytheistic religions, naturalistic religions, animism, and suggests that Hinduism isn't an actual religion (the Hindu 'gods' are a product of the universe), and suggests that the ancient Greek pantheon and their subsequent influence on the Roman pantheon weren't religions either. (The Greek 'gods' were created by the Titans, who where themselves either created by or were aspects of the universe). It also arbitrarily excludes non-personal 'god' religions or religions without a 'god' or 'gods' as central characters such as Animism, Taoism and Buddhism. Here is a somewhat less biased western parochial definition of religion. "Religion is the ritualized observance of a "believed in" 'god' or 'gods'". This latter version eliminates the arbitrary personal 'god' bias, universe creator bias and the life creator bias. It also eliminates or leaves out the monotheism bias. Even though this latter version has a lot of advocates, I think it still stops short of the true mark where religions are accurately described as its still excludes many religions by an arbitrary "god-centric" bias and doesn't accurately reflect "what is out there" as far as religious ceremonies and observances. Here's a definition of religion which may not be perfect, but I think comes much closer to the mark. "Religion is the belief in forces in nature or "supernature" that influences our future (either on earth in this life and/or somewhere else and after this life) in an unknown or unknowable way and is based on how virtuous our thoughts and actions are in this world." ("Virtuous" of course, being defined by the religion itself). (Or as Worldnet dictionary puts it, "A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny".) I theorize that people often set out to satisfy certain evolutionary-born instinctive desires via religious beliefs and in the process we often create agents that act as personified or even avatar-like representations that help us gain a sense or belief of having achieved these desires. Some of these agents are 'gods'. Some are lesser 'gods', Buddha, angels and demons or saints. And some agents are not even personified, like karma or the Tao, which are more like justice-dealing laws of nature or physics that are influenced by ones accumulated religious currency ("virtues" or "merit"). In this sense, they resemble the Ancient Greek's pre-Socratic idea of Logos or Nous. I think in any fair and accurate representation of religion, we must acknowledge that some people can believe in a 'god' or 'gods' and have no religious theory at all (Deism), or have religions that either have no recognized 'gods' (Taoism) or the 'gods' are not central figures or central loci agents ('gods' in the Buddhist Wheel of Life, ancient Greek and Roman pantheon religions, Hinduism, animism, the Chinese 'god' pantheon, etc). There can even be believed in "free agents" involved in "supernature" that don't act as religious agents, such as belief in vampires, succubi etc, and some can have some pseudo-religious origins such as the baby-stealer or crib-death issuing Lilith of Jewish myth, who, arguably, was Adam's first wife.) These "free agents" historically have been viewed as dealing out some horror in response to ones lack of merit or virtue. One "deserves it", and the tell tale sign that such an idea is from our minds and not elements of objective existence is that these are still "the rules" in horror movies. The bad guys, the ones who are responsible for setting the horror loose to begin with, the ones who mess with or tempt nature, the ones who fornicate or who otherwise "sin" or who are vain and arrogant are the ones the monsters get first and foremost. There is more than a passing resemblance between the poetic justice in fiction and folklore and that of the idea of divine providence or karma. I wrote that I theorized that people often set out to satisfy certain evolutionary-born instinctive desires via religious beliefs. What did I mean by this? I mean that I believe that religion is a byproduct of our evolutionary heritage and development. 1. The first factor in religion formation is one of an evolutionary psychological nature. My opinion is that this factor is actually a perversion of a natural social instinct. A "by-product" or epiphenomenon if you will. I think we developed certain social instincts as a product of developing as a social species. One of these theorized instincts being a sense of fairness. Fairness involves others, however in a specialized case, we can consider whether we are being fair to ourselves, but only if we think of ourselves in a dual role as dealer and receiver of said fair or unfair action. In any event, we can't be unfair to a rock or to a 'nothing'. Fairness is inherently a social concept that proves beneficial to our species. 2. Another instinct, although not a social one, is the desire to continue to live and to keep our values. It's only the concept of life that gives the concept of value any meaning. If the dead truly die in every sense of the word, then all values that were held in life are lost at death. The desire to continue to live in a happy and healthy state is the survival instinct. 3. The third factor that I think plays a role in religion formation isn't so much an instinct as a desire. A desire for wish fulfillment. We equate happiness with having things and states which would facilitate said happiness. We insist on cosmic justice as a minimum, but we wish for "paradise". 4. And the fourth factor I consider to be intrinsic in religion formation is our propensity to anthropomorphize much of the universe, either in form or in the presumed motives of these anthropomorphized "spiritual" agents. This is also an evolutionary psychology theory. Regarding the first factor, that of social fairness, I think we often extrapolate this to the universe at large. Not only do we expect people to be fair to each other, we also expect and often times insist on "cosmic justice" or cosmic reciprocity, i.e. some poetic justice form of "book balancing" where both the good people and the bad people get their just dues, whether it's from a rational source or an irrational source. This obviously doesn't always happen in life, so there is a wished presumption that this will eventually occur in an afterlife or during a reincarnated existence. There is a wish/belief that bad people 'should' be punished for their misdeeds or even 'come back' as a lower being, where life is harder, and likewise, there is the similar wish/belief that good people be thusly rewarded. This instinct isn't isolated to the subject of religion. Indeed, we see the desire for poetic justice in our literature, movies, books, tall tales, myths, folklore etc. Instances where the bad and the good get their just dues we find emotionally satisfying due to this sense of cosmic justice. When "The fates" are doing their job we are Happy. (Notice in "teen slasher" or "teen monster" movies, the mean, rude and often overly beautiful & conceded /overly muscular and hostile people typically get killed off, and the nice, pleasantly attractive (but not enough to make you envious or jealous) heroes that are trying to help others are either exonerated or 'win out' in the end. The hero or heroine (usually the latter), usually live...at least long enough to see another sequel). The second factor is a byproduct of the survival instinct. We fear death as we fear the loss of all our worldly values. We wish for immortality, and religious belief often implicitly grants this wish. Examples are karmic recycling/Nirvana/"The Void", and the Christian "everlasting life". Rare is the religion that doesn't exploit this implied wish fulfillment in some form or another. The third factor isn't merely to have a poetic justice "goodness" granted to us in some sort of not-understood and magical way, but to actually have granted to us (and implicitly deserve) "all our wishes fulfilled" within the confines of the allowed rules i.e. to live "in paradise". If a 'god' is the central figure of the religion, and especially if this 'god' is portrayed as loving and benevolent, then the believer's idea of paradise often involves living in paradise along side "the father", etc. There is also an element of personal membership grandiosity and an "us and them" ideology involved. (Note the paternal nomenclature of 'god' as "the father". The ancient influence (especially in the west) of the concepts of Mother Earth, from which life springs forth, and that of Father Heaven, which lies above and provides the 'love water' which causes Mother Earth to bring forth life, have a lasting influence that is still felt today, although the details and roots of these ideas have almost completely died away in modern western theology.) And the fourth factor is simply an outgrowth of awareness that other agents with egos (senses of self) exist. (We have much more to fear from other tangible conscious agents than from the dead.) Its easy to see how we can go from considering whether other mortal beings our friend or foe, to animism with either haunted or enchanted forests, etc. 'gods' are simply the next "evolutionary step" up from spirits in trees and steams. We can also see that the final, sensible definition of religion "make sense" of general superstion as well. Spells, charms, talismans, colored gems, etc can be viewed as affecting how karma or divine providence acts upon one, just as appealing to the saints, Buddha, or the White Tara can. That's the essence of what I consider the nature and roots of religion. 101125 ... jio jio 101126 ... shpaaaaaaaaaaaa shpaaaaaaaaaaaa 141205 ... shpaaaaaaaaaaaa shpaaaaaaaaaaaa 141205 what's it to you? who go blather from