the_god_debate_continues sabbie ok, so the page 'god' is way too long to load up, and when it finanly does load up its not the page i want and i cant find the actual page where i read the thing i am about to respond to here anyway, but hey, i'm always happy to improvise anything. so here goes: a while back (i don't know how long) i read a blather by The Truth where he told us a little story about building the perfectest sand castle ever made and he was really proud of it but then he saw some nasty boys coming along the beach and he just knew that they would trash his sand castle so in an effort to stop that happening he took his fist and smote it righteously (well, ok, so i only said he destroyed it himself, i put that bit in for my own entertainment) so that the boys couldn't do it, and then he made a comment (which i assume was the whole point of the story) that that must be what god was thinking when he decided to make the universe and then destroy it. i haven't heard many good reasons why god decided to make the whole world and giraffes and stuff when he knew it was all going to go pear-shaped, so The Truth defiantly gets points for at least offering up an opinion on the matter. but what i was to point out is the childishness of the motives that he is assigning to god, that this omni-everything being that made the universe has a case of 'if i can't have it, then fuckit, no one can. so there!' come on, i'm not buying that. alright .:bracing herself:. so somebody, wade on in! the water's fine... 010626 ... nocturnal I've been considering making a god 2 page or something for about a month now. but then I figured I'd have to say something about god and I can't fight about that shit anymore. I'm sick of it. just wanted to say good job on taking the initiative. argue on. 010626 ... dB Do you think that if there is a god, he/she should be held accountable for all the bad things that happen? Think of it this way, if you were omnipotent, all powerful and so on, would you let people die in car accidents and tornados and stuff? Personally if I had powers of great unlimit, I'd never let an innocent suffer or die in bad ways. I just couldn't let it happen. Then this brings the question, if god lets this sort of thing go on, does that mean that he/she is angry or spiteful? and if that is the case, is he/she worthy of our attention? 010626 ... DannyH God is vicious/mean/angry/spiteful As compared to what? You ever get into a hot bath with a steaming mug of tea on a freezing cold day? Ever dance in a sprinkler on the hottest day of the year? He who made the the difference, and the choice, if he exists, I worship. 010626 ... The Truth I really enjoyed your improvisation, Sabby, especially the "righteously smote" part...I am still laughing.... ANYWAYS.... I think we can compare God's motives/actions/behavior to our own, simply because of this: In the very beginning of the bible, we are told that we humans are "made in God's own image". Now, I struggled with that for a very, very long time. Years. Until I finally realized what is meant by that. We are made in the image of the creator. "huh?" Meaning, -we (humans) have a creative process too, we can create, even life, and destroy at will, there is much power there that we take for granted. -we have a range of emotions,Identical to God's, but surely not as potent, -we get to experience Love, -we can control our destiny, -we will live for eternity, -we have spiritual strengths. and some more, on and on, but the point is, We have much in common with God, Humans are his children, not Apes, or cows, or dolphins...Humans! It is our special relationship with God that affords us all of our beautiful wonderments, not, repeat NOT our opposable thumbs! But we are also physical creatures, giving us much in common with the animals. So we are caught in the struggle of our higher natures vs. our lower natures (spiritual vs. instinct), and that, my friends, along with the morality aspects, is what being human is all about. 010626 ... The Truth As far as God being accountable for His actions? I agree with you. I have thought about it before too, like when God used the Isrealites to conquere all of those countries that inhabited the promised land, I thought..."well, that's great that your chosen people get to have victory in battle, but what about those poor amalakites (or whoever) that were slain, What about their rights? So God told me, "Those people were better off dying swiftly when they did, than being allowed to continue their course of action and eventually dying a slow, diseased ridden, agonizing death." I believe that it will all be revealed to us in the end. Every tornado and every car accident, every stubbed toe, will have it's purpose explained, and we will all be dumbfounded and amazed that God used every one of those things to bring about a solidly GOOD purpose! That's just what I believe. 010626 ... dB God will explain my stubbed toe? I'm looking forward to that one. Maybe he can also explain the migranes (spelling?). Anyway, I could sit here all day and poke holes in your comments,as you could mine. At the end of the day we are not out to change each others beliefs, just to observe. This is the tack you have taken here, and I am grateful for that. A religious argument is the first step to war, and that has happened too often already. I see that you are one who would follow the guidelines set in the bible, "do unto others..." and so on. This is highly commendable. I find the bible to be much like Marxist theory in that there are some great thoughts about how we should behave towards each other. However, like Marxism, people take the bible too seriously, and that is when the blood starts to flow. In cases such as this, why would god not intervene? How could he let that kind of thing happen because of people interpreting things differently, or believing in the "wrong god", when many people of different faith generally believe that there is only one god, and you can worship him.her in any way you like, as long as you do it. The whole Irish conflict is a good example. How long have they been fighting and blowing up buidings now? 100 years? More? How could god sit idly by and let some of his most faithful subjects kill each other and torure each other on his account? It makes no sense to me. If he created us in his own image why doesn't he show compassion as humans do (with the excetion of people in Marketing, Advertising and Lawyers)? 010626 ... Dafremen Truth I really hate to lower myself to name calling...but ...well ok I'll just resist the urge. Do go on Truth...so what happened next? Is there a fairy godmother in this story? Please say yes. Oh goody goody. 010626 ... dB Daffy, I've never had to reprimand you before and I have no place to. But give the dude a break. Hey, I don't agree with him either but it is not our place to insult others. I thought you above that... well I didn't but sometimes it's not appropriate. 010626 ... baby satan no gas. 010626 ... Nathan Solla Just for a second, pretend that it IS true, that we will either be rewarded or punished at judgement... Now imagine that it's your turn to be judged, and you've lived a good life, you've loved God and people all of your life, God says "dB, Well done!" or whatever, and you are instantly transformed into a majestic being of beauty and light...but you are still "you". You now know that your role in the universe from that point on will be to experience pure love, peace, and joy for eternity, in a beautiful paradise created specifically for you. (Oh, and I'm sure you'd be a little grateful as well.) Would you look back on your suffering, hardships, pain and hurt that you endured for maybe 60-70 measely years on Earth and say "Now wait a minute! That Sucked!, We had wars and stuff, man!"? Probably not. You would probably be so overwhelmed with gratitude, happiness and excitement that you would never, ever, ever even think back to those times, and only remember the good times you've had on earth. Now don't be tempted to dismiss this all as far-fetched, fantastic, ridiculous, fiction, which, even I will admit is not too difficult. But seriously try to entertain the possibility that it is truth, and that God is real, and humans have a shot at eternal life. You may even find that it makes perfect sense, instead of nonsense. 010626 ... dB Ok, I'll try to entertain the notion that it is true. And, as you say, if I am still "me" in this paradise I'd have to decline it. I need my hardships, my suffering and my pain. That is what drives me to be what I am, and to some extent it is a part of me that I will not let go of. If, in this perfect afterlife or whatever, I forget about the lessons on this world, I would cease to be. It would be nice to think that there is something after this, and that you are right. But I won't believe it. The future is born in pain, always. If you take away that pain, what future is there? 010626 ... The Truth That is an interesting viewpoint, and one that I hear increasingly often, but to me, that is like saying: "After I win the big game, I need to keep on training, I can't stop and accept my prize, I must continue to train and train and train, even though the season is over." It's doesn't seem to be the way our minds are set up psychologically. 010626 ... Casey I always seem to agree with calvin from calvin and hobbes. There is a god, because someone is deffinatly out to get me 010626 ... dB Well, that's not the best analogy for it. It's... man... I dunno. It's just the way I am. Can't think of any other way to explain it. I can hardly keep my eyes open I'm so tired. I'll get some sleep and get back to you. 010626 ... bono in lingerie I am God. Was there ever any doubt? 010626 ... Dafremen None bono...not that I thought there was any other possibility...not by a bugger's ear anymatter...eh mate? P.S. Db...Of COURSE I would stoop to name calling...you don't think all of this typing gets tiring? After awhile you stop yelling at the dog and just start kicking it on your way in the door from work. Such is the nature of this big beautiful universe and the humans that it created. Including one who calls himself Dafremen. 010627 ... god in milwaukee Thanks for being understanding. I'm getting pretty fed up with my life lately....I just wish I could get my house clean before it gets dirty again. Anyhow....yes, you are defitely on to something with your lyrics!!! Hell yeah....that's some fucked up shit. Since we're both in the sharing mood, here's the lyrics to 'tampons and tomatoes' that sour gut boys song I told you about way back... My friend once was a garbage man Who had a good time just a lookin' in the cans And every single day he'd try to do a little better seein' which two things he could find together like.... tampons and tomatoes 60 watt bulb and shoe shine a Meister Brau and a bottle of Nix With a certificate of acheivement A syringe and a street sign Carpet remnants and training wheels Goulash and a SCSI board Cigarette butts and past due bills My friend once was a garbage man Who had a good time just a lookin' in the cans And every single day he'd try to do a little better seein' which two things he could find together like.... kleenex and some coax Newspapers and a Betamax a front quarter panel from a 75 Vega And a little sis shirt from Chi Omega Coffee Grinds and a croquet ball Shotgun shells and lip gloss Some 3/8's nuts and Oxycontin Excrement and Dental Floss My friend once was a garbage man Who had a good time just a lookin' in the cans And every single day he'd try to do a little better seein' which two things he could find together like.... an enema and army men x lax and a sit n' spin A cassette tape full of kareoke And an '82 Donruss Kent Tekulve A fryin' pan and a fiance A summons and a matress tag Big mac and a macrame Toughskin jeans and jack off mags My friend once was a garbage man Who had a good time just a lookin' in the cans And every single day he'd try to do a little better seein' which two things he could find together 010627 ... Dafremen I miss you big guy...hurry home. All these bleeding hearts are driving me up a wall and there's noone around to damn them for me. (You DO it so well do0d...guess practice really does make perfect...well almost heheh you never could live up to expectations huh?) 010627 ... baby satan you could always ask_baby_satan. i'll put you right. 010627 ... god still in milwaukee damn all those fucks (from milwaukee, no less) your welcome 010627 ... g. i. m. hope little bs damns them as well. 010627 ... sabbie .:rolls up sleeves and wades back in:. ok... well, firstly, i'm a little disappointed, truthie, i even did your capitals and everything, this from a girl how doesn't ever use capitals if she possibly can, and in retaliation you spelled my name wrongly. the points you got for offering up an opinion have jsut been halved. that's just shoddy work. but onto your words... i could start at the actual quote from the one you paraphrased, which i actually think is one of the most interesting verses in the bible ("and god said "let us make man in our image, after our likeness (gen 2:26) ) but that would open a whole 'nother kettle of fish and i don't like the way that kettle is smelling, so we'll jsut leave it alone (for now, anyway) and move on... now, as dB said, we could pick apart each others arguments till we're blue in the fingertips, but i don't have that amount of net time, so i'll be picky as to what i have public issues with. you say that god told you "those people were better off dying swiftly when they did, than being allowed to continue their course of action and eventually dying a slow, diseased ridden, agonizing death." ... no fucking way. what about free will? how do you know that they would have all died horribly? maybe some of them liked gardening. i bet some of them were nice to their neighbors kids. i bet most of them really liked their life, eating dates and having sing-a-longs with their friends every friday night. ok, some of them might have been arseheads after too much date wine, but if you walked down my street on a friday night you'd see those same people in less clothing vomiting onto their closest bitumen river. everywhere there are people who are bastards right hard up against people who could have had coffees with jesus every day of the week and he would have paid for the cake. i've met bastard christians and beautiful pagans. i've met beautiful chrisitans and bastard pagans. i've met buddists who are amazing and buddists who really need to think about their actions a little more... what im saying is that there are people who deserve kiwi fruits and sunshine in every religion and people who really need another turn on the best horse on the merry-go-round to work out just what its all about. how can any deity worth their supporters say "see them? even if they've never heard of me they don't worship me and you may kill them with my whole hearted permission" how can you honestly reconcile the nasty, petty god in the old testament with hippie jesus and the god-of-love in the new? and Nathan Solla, do you honestly believe that when you get to heaven and start fiddling with your pretty little guilded harp that you'll wipe your brow and think "phew, im really glad _thats_ over, now i don't have to deal with all that shit anymore" and you'll peer through the clouds at all the people still slogging through life and having to deal with banks and farts in elevators and liquefying veggies in the fridge and gloat that you have made it out? that "you would probably be so overwhelmed with gratitude, happiness and excitement that you would never, ever, ever even think back to those times..." ok, now i don't know you, and who knows, you might well do that. but im on the side of the under dog. i don't think that's fair, that now i have the penthouse cloud and some dress that never needs ironing while others still have to slog it out, and i will march right up to your god and demand a reconciling. if i am answerable to god then god is answerable to me. and truthie? you didn't really answer my question. remember in science class and everyone got a pertri dish to sneeze into and you got to keep it for a few weeks to see what would happen and then, after carefully recording the results in your textbook you chucked the petri dish and its contents out? would you have sneezed into that dish if you already knew what was going to happen at the end of the 3 weeks? what would have been the point? so why did god do it? 010628 ... sabbie ok, so that was rather a long blather. but i had lots to say. 010628 ... lost I wonder how the physically and mentally handicapped get judged... What if their still like that in heaven... Who'd want an eternity of being crippled? Who'd want an eternity of anything for that matter? Everyone wants money, fame, and eternal life and that's exactly what's promised in heaven with the exception of the fame part. Money's no object there, and your dead, can't really die again. Of couse, Humanity does have a knack for choosing precisely what's worst for it. - Lost 010628 ... ignorant masses she's a witch! burn her! 010628 ... nocturnal oh shit. I've been found out. I gotta get the hell outa here fast. 010628 ... Dafremen (miles away on noc's broom) "I wonder if nocturnal found out I took her broom yet?" 010629 ... The Truth Sabbie! (not sabby! oops! So sorry.) I did answer your question somewhere else on blather, not sure where though, so I'll say it (my opinion!) again. I think that the reason God did it, created creation, including life, love, and free will, was for "His pleasure" and there are some bible verses to back that up, but yeah, He did it for plain old fun! And we, as humans, can relate to Him because we do some equally silly things for enjoyment. Such as...Well, I'll use the domino analogy again. I once spent several hours setting up an elaborate network of dominoes around the livingroom carpet. It took most of my sunny saturday to complete it, but I was determined. I prepared the way carefully, setting up each domino, some branching off of the main trunk, some going in spiral patterns.Why? I knew exactly what was going to happen after I ever so slightly touched the first one. I knew because I planned it all out ahead of time, predestination style. Yet I still had incredible amounts of fun just watching them all fall down, just as I designed them to. I knew it could go smoothly, while there would be some glitches that would require my immediate intervention, it would mostly go as smoothly as planned. I never had the good fortune of snot studies in science class, we instead experimented with bean sprouts. But then again, I knew exactly what would happen when I planted the seed. It would sprout, grow, blossom, then sadly be thrown away at the end of the semester. I still enjoyed nurturing it through all of its phases of growth. And I don't think anyone in heaven will look down on Earth from their cloud, because A) that is a misrepresentation of the facts, but somehow widely accepted by the mainstream, and B) as I posted in my Judgment blather, I don't think anyone will get to heaven until after the universe collapses and all of time has toppled over, domino style. Also, sure there are Good and bad people in our days of "fat society" with our free time and chains of distribution. But 4000 years ago, people were much more focused on survival. Sure they may have enjoyed figs, but that doesn't mean they had a shred of consideration for their fellow man, and they had absolutely NO consideration for their fellow woman. It was more like, "Do not eat those figs, those are My FIGS! grrr!" and it got ugly after that. They all could have lived their entire lives without doing one good thing. They didn't love, or give. They lusted and took for themselves. (Actually, I wasn't there...this is still theory, but with reasonable foundations.) 010701 ... kinkazoid ok...at first when i would read this whatever you call it word (the_god_..) it would totally make me cry just to see how little of faith people could actually have. but just 2 days ago, i wsa lying in bed trying to go to sleep i was so tired, and yet i couldnt go to sleep i layed there with eyes closed not moving for 2 hours straight. i did what i do every night before i go to sleep, i sing a song in my head over and over then fall, but i couldnt fall the song went on for a while till i realized i was not falling asleep. so anyways i was so mad at myself for not going to sleep it was so painful, i started crying and hitting my self and stuff. i asked God to help me go to sleep an hour later i was getting real mad, i begged God to make me sleep, for some reason it never happened, he just wouldnt do it. and that is so not much to ask for i wanted to sleep!! well anyways i was so mad i called him an asshole and told him "hey, you wonder why lots of people dont believe in you? maybe its cuz when they need stuff you dont help them out" its like only the poor people and fucking insane people that he helps out. this is the first time in like 5 years that i even thought about second guessing the existence of God. i dont know what to do 010701 ... baby satan being unable to get to sleep has nothing to do with god. it has to do with defective exercise bikes. nothing more, nothing less. 010701 ... The Truth You bring up a very good point, kinkazoid. Why does it seem like God won't answer your prayers? For the answer you need, you must set up an internal "thought net" to capture and monitor your thoughts, for analytical purposes. If you think back to that night when you were lying in bed, what was going through the back or your mind before you "talked" to God? Was it something like: "Ok...I'll ask God to make me go to sleep, if he is real...etc. etc. What am I doing? This won't work...(and then later) See...I knew it wouldn't work!" ? OR was it like: "Ok...I'll ask God to help me sleep...I know that He will... There is not a doubt in my mind that if I ask God, He will absolutely give me whatever I need!...(and later)...Oh, by the way...thanks God!" ? One of these thought processes is full of doubt, the other is filled with faith. And faith is what is necessary to communicate with God. You could say faith is the language that God speaks. One is a negative thought pattern, the other is a positive thought pattern. If you want to have a positve result, then you need to have a positive inner dialogue. 010702 ... Dafremen I should just leave him be huh? Kinda like that crazy Admiral that had the ship on top of his house in Mary Poppins. It doesn't hurt him to believe it and it seems to make the poor dear happy...so why the f*ck not. DO go on Truth...I'm listening...negative thought patterns...god...uh huh..what else? 010702 ... dB Not a good example. I've been asking god to help me sleep for years. If he helps you sleep why do i have to take a shitload of tranquilisers 4 hours before I go to bed? If there is a go, he's watching us like you watch a sit-com. Like us, he takes pleasure in the suffering of others and won't do shit to change anything. Thankyou, goodnight! 010702 ... the spork So, lemme get this, if we don't phrase it the way He want's to hear it then he isn't gonna bother. ...and WE'RE childish. hoo-boy. that's my two cents. 010702 ... dB Good value for two cents 010702 ... The Truth No no no! It's more like this: If you and your father hadn't spoken to each other, ever, and you went up to him and just said, "Hey dad, gimme some rest will ya! I'm tired!" and then you just went and layed down and waited, what would happen? Well, your dad would be a little hurt, obviously, and not too likely to want to help you out at all, and he certainly wouldn't be obligated to do a single thing for you. But many people treat God that very same way. And then act like it's HIS fault when things don't go OUR way! The only difference with our Heavenly Father is this: (ok...certainly NOT the ONLY difference, but anyway)... God has made certain PROMISES to us, something a few estranged dads out there have never done. now... You may think whatever you want to about me, about my blatherings, I really don't care, but the Truth is this: God has never broken a promise that He's made to me, not even one. And there's not enough words to describe the countless number of times I have been aware of direct blessings that could only have come from divine intervention. I Love God, yes that's right, LOVE HIM! What do you act like when you're in love? I think about Him while I'm doing simple, idle tasks, and through out the day I find my thoughts just sort of gravitating toward Him. Sometimes, you'll catch me crack a smile and get a little teary-eyed, just because I can get a little overwhelmed by His gifts like gentlelovingkindness, openness, architectural beauty and supreme designing skills. It's no longer a BIG SECRET ANYMORE! I'm officially coming out of the God-Closet. It feels so good! I am FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE (ok...I feel better now, thanks!) Oh and by the way...these are all just my opinions, so please don't assume that I am in anyway representing any branch of organized religion, thanks! 010703 ... kinkazoid i am not that way with god though, we had a good relationship, i talked to him all the time, and thanked him for everything he had given me everyday. i appologized to him for everything i ever did wrong, and told him i forgave him for things he had done wrong also. so its not like i never cared untill i wanted something, i always haved cared. now im starting to think that all my faith, and all my prayers are unfounded. (slc punk) 010703 ... sykoze i do not believe in a god in the christian manipulative distortion of the word. Although this is way cliche, Merriam-Webster's says the following: god: the supreme or ultimate reality and that is all that it should be. none of this judeo-christian overloadind of the word. I believe that the "reality" we all see and struggle to cope with daily is never the complete story. Behind all of it, there is a pattern, a mode of behavior, a great structure of order of intangible complexity emerging out of the mundane chaos which consumes our lives, especially in the monocultural, beaurocratic mode of development in which we seem to be stuck. Shortly, my god is the spirit of nature, the ultimate result of all that happens in the world. We are all extremely intricately interconnected not only in space and time, but in ways which we cannot even start to comprehend, and it is this interconnectivity that gives rise to god. Individual ants in an ant colony may not know the ultimate direction which their laborious labor will take them, but out of this ignorance among the lower level, a sophisticated social heirarchy is established, and a magnificent ant hill is created. The sum is greater than the parts. Claiming that you know god's will wont solve anything. Just sit back and let people be themselves. Everything will work out eventually. And even if you end up dying prematurely in the process, at least you can be comforted with the thought that your existance in and of itself will have served in direct or not-so-direct ways towards the psycho-social evolution of humankind. I am not preaching apathy. Instead I am merely requesting that we all not project ourselves into other peoples' affairs and impose our own set of mannerisms and beliefs on the unwilling. Running about claiming that you know the will of god or allah or whatever your deity may be will accomplish nothing, and in the end it will probably do more harm than good. Anyway, just cool down, peace out, and be nice and respect others, their beliefs, and nature. God knows we need it to escape from the "reality" of our culture. 010902 ... god yeah 010902 ... strawberry icecream When I was young I used to pray for a bike. Then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness. If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. 010902 ... god hey, how ya doin' ice cream. why did you go and steal that bike? awwww.... i forgive ya! 010902 ... The 12th Monkey The Truth wrote on 010626: So God told me, "Those people were better off dying swiftly when they did, than being allowed to continue their course of action and eventually dying a slow, diseased ridden, agonizing death." It is people with beliefs such as this that fly hijacked planes into sides of buildings. You arrogant fucker. 010912 ... god whatever happened to the truth? 020422 ... silentbob I used to say Fuck The Truth but in reality the truth fucks you 020422 ... Syrope theres nothing i hate more than parents who make their kids do stuff 'because they said so'...and i dont mean the kid is asking risky metaphysical questions, i mean just everyday stuff and the parent is just too tired or frustrated to answer. in the same line of thought, i can't stand people who blindly follow some thought about god. "oooh well god likes me and im a good person so everything i want is gonna be mine, but you're an awful person because you didn't smile when you prayed so ha!!! you don't get anything!!!" if there is a god, he's not as petty and fickle as his "followers" 020627 ... Perspective_Of_Soul I am amazed and astounded how so many rational people can be drawn in by a book and an idea thousands and thousands of years old. I am aware that there are many gods and many religions each with their own version of the one Truth and i am also aware that there are many reasons why people believe. I was brought up in a semi-Christian environment. I accepted what i was told and without second thought swallowed it all.Then one day not long ago i woke up. It did not make sense. Life was shit and there was no sign of an omni-benevolent God up there using His omnipotence to make me feel better. There is nothing more freeing than suddenly realising that every action you take is not being judged by some mythical ghost that sits outside of the natural universe. But then again, God is everywhere. If God is omnipresent then we must assume that God resides not only in Heaven and on earth but in Hell as well, not to mention in the hearts and minds of those that may not believe in Him at all. God created everything, therefore He created Evil. This is denied by Christians often for they say that it was the 'gift' of free will that allows mankind to choose Evil. Or choose something other than God. If thats true then God did not create everything for the alternative to Good must have been created in order for one to choose it. But thats nonsense anyway for God DID create Evil. Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create the darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" Free Will is impossible anyway if God knows everything and can do everything. The argument has been done to death so i could not be bothered to place it here but in summary it goes as follows: God knows every choice you will make, he knew from the very beginning, you cannot do anything but what God knows you shall do. Now throw in the fact that he kick started the whole process of life on earth you shall find after very little thought that if God gave you anything, it is the ILLUSION of free will, not free will itself. The Bible itself is filled with contradictions, bloody violence, terrible treatment to women and children, homosexuals and so on. If we were to take the Bible as 100% truth then we would be screwed. Genesis says that plants and light were created DAYS before the sun. The Bible tells us that homosexuals should be killed, LEV 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." And just for a laugh, it tells us that if you have sex with an animal, you shall be killed along with the poor animal, LEV 20:15 "And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast." I do not worship God. If i die and for some reason there is one and i get sent to Hell, so be it. I would rather be in Hell with all those people that had a little fun during life than to spend another second in a place that contains those guys that hang around the city wearing name tags and holding Bibles.I would rather bask in the warm sauna of a flaming lake of fire than to live forever in a place with a God that sent His own Son to get nailed to a cross and die in terrible pain when it could have all been solved by altering his creation a tiny bit at the start. All i can say is, if there is a God up there that knows everything, then he shall know my reasons for not believing in him are justified. 030322 ... DevilsLyric The more ignorant and unintellegent you are the more you believe in god. Look at how strongly hillbillys believe in god. I havent for a few years. I am agnostic, not knowing if there is a perfect being or not but I know I do not believe in the christian god. This rids me of so much useless Dogma from all sects of that faith. That is a major flaw in that religion. Also, in my opinion, if there is a heaven I should be able to go when I die. If God is so loving then he will except me even if I have lost faith for my own reasons. Same for anyone who has never heared of the christian faith. Christianity is so hyppocritical. I don't hate god i cant he doesn't exist. 030322 ... flipchrist i used to pray to god everyday for years. then i decided to experiment and start praying to the letter s on my keyboard. they were both very unhelpful. 030322 ... ferret ok, about the omnipotent thing, omnipotent basically means all everywhere and all knowing right? so Gd is everywhere and knows all ( kinds like the cia) so i'm gonna take a little risk and just voice this, this isn't necisarilly what i believe, i just had this thought today. ok, so Gd knows all right? so maybe Gd lets tragedies happen because He knows that something good will ultimately result from that happening, and if He had prevented it from hapenning then that good thing wouldn't have happened, so what i'm saying is maybe God just knows every single possibility and what will result of it and chooses events to take place that will in the end create the ultimate good. like, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction right? so why can't it be the same here? anyway, not exactly what i wanted to say but i'm tired so blah! 030322 ... ferret now that's odd, i know i wrote God instead of Gd. hmmm 030322 ... ferret also, about the whole gay thing, what if a christian is gay? or what if a gay guy is a christian? sexual preference has nothing to do with belief, i don't know whether i believe the bible or not. i'm reading it anyway to see what i can learn, i think that some of it is flawed, since it was written by A) many people over long periods of time and B) the race of MEN! God did not write the bible as far as i know. If a gay guy is a christian and he lives his life entirely riteously (grrr spelling) and then he's gay and God says "nope, sorry, you're gay! you can't come in!" I don't think that that's right, just my opinion. 030322 ... MDogMA We all can't agree what happens day to day within our own existances, how can anyone believe that a group of old men 2000 years ago had the forsight to memorize every detail of their encounters with the first sociologist and write down individual perspective of the man post mordum, and further translations from san scrit to english are invariably altered upon the experiance of the translator, the scholors of the time didn't even have the forsight to make an latin san scrit dictionary. I'm not even saying that jesus and co is false, all I point out is the fact that by now you are reading an entirely different story. Even denying the lapses in perfection between the original language to latin, which undeniably they are large. There have been found many discrepancys between latin and english. Fortunatly the church is good at telling people to accept on face value, so modifications were never made. Many of these errors are so glaring that they significantly revise the plot of what was originally written. Beleive what ever you want, but just realise mother church has never been known for her managerial skills, they have undoubtably mish mashed the "teachings" to the point of unrecognition, potetially leading their flock down the incorrect path. And while on the subject, no question we're all going to hell anyway if such things exist, I really enjoy my sunday mornings off 030323 ... MDogMA i love church i love church... hypocrisy_tastes_good 030323 ... Perspective_of_Soul BTW, omnipotent means the power to DO anything. Omniscience is knowledge without bounderies. The thought that God does everything for the greater good is a nice one, but incredibly flawed. If God created the circumstances, he surely could have created them in a way as to avoid people dying from cancer and so on, or natural disasters. I am sure it would comfort those mothers down at the hospital watching their babies die that it "Is all Gods plan and for the greater good". *sarcasm added* 030323 ... god damn. seems like most of you all still believe that god is some guy with a white beard who sits up in the sky in a big purple chair. 030323 ... megan I would like to put my two cents in. The Truth, God bless him, is/was a very interesting blatherer. he, like all of us, had strong feelings on certain things, and chose to use blather as his public speaking place, as well as other things also, i'm sure. i, for one, respect him for that. as for God... i want all of you out there to sit and think a moment. even if it's only 30 seconds of quiet alone, i just want you to ponder why you're here on earth. put all the world aside, put all your problems behind you if only for that one moment. do you ever feel called to a HIGHER purpose? like you're seeing the big picture when sit down a relax. nothing else makes sense to me. i know in my heart that Jesus has saved us from all the harm and hurt and bad things the devil has thrown at us. have you found Him? have you taken that 30 seconds out of your day, just to see how amazing He is, that He could give you a choice, whether or not to believe in Him, whether or not to even acknowledge Him? please think hard on this, it may determine the rest of your life. if you approach the whole thing as a myth, so be it. but still, this myth, that has lasted for thousands of years, has parts of the story that have already unfolded and are still unfolding. have you really done the research out there, not allowing anyone to influence you one way or the other? have you made that final decision based on nothing but the other people, who, like you, have made their decision without research also. search objectively, and ye shall find. please, people, like i've said before, it may determine the rest of your lives. 030323 ... minnesota_chris Jesus was nuts. He was. The stuff he said made no sense whatsoever. Until you are confronted with proof that God exists. Until you have that, Christianity (and your evangelism, Megan) is only silliness. 030323 ... MDogMA Megan my purpose is to ask questions, and more importantly to instill in others an inquisitive nature your taking things at face value can be described as nothing if not back-sliding 030323 ... MDogMA And that is a self chosen purpose fate plays no part 030323 ... Perspective_of_soul Megan, you have dismissed the other thousands of religions out there that believe in a different God than yours. So, tell us why you deny those Gods existance and you shall discover the answer to why some people deny yours. 030323 ... cube The title of this blathe should contain the word 'ignorance'. It is apparent that most of you have given no more consideration to this issue than you might have given to the color of shirt you put on this morning - perhaps less. Only Megan, by her faith alone, comes closest to the truth. For the rest, your confusion is so profound that I fear your souls have already succumbed to the power of Mephistopheles. "I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently to reason incorrectly." Michel de Montaigne ³ 030324 ... wingedSerpent i took more than 30 seconds, i took 15 years, megan. The more complex a world i saw, outside the confines of my own little trivial issues in this world, the less i was able to believe. And as for you, my dear Reverend Cube, it's assessments such as yours with that tone of sanctimonious superiority that just make unbelievers like me dig their heels in deeper. It must be fun to be so handy with that first stone, no? 030324 ... cube "They were so strong in their beliefs that there came a time when it hardly mattered what exactly those beliefs were; they all fused into a single stubbornness." Louise Erdrich This probably pertains to both sides of the debate, no? ³ 030324 ... megan in response.. for i feel i need to... "Megan, you have dismissed the other thousands of religions out there that believe in a different God than yours. So, tell us why you deny those Gods existance and you shall discover the answer to why some people deny yours. " you have made a point that is relevant. i cannot deny that most Christians have driven it to this point, that it has become a struggle, a fight, instead of a love. the thing that caught me, into believing that Christ rose again for me, is that He loves me. when all else is failing in my world, when all is going wrong, i always know that i have Someone to turn to, someone to fall on. but like i've said before, you have to find that for yourself, no debate, no blathe, no other person can figure it out for you. that's why i respect MDogMA (not sure if capitals are in right places?) in his blathe, that he's questioning. that's what we are to do, as humans. we're inquisitive by nature. go out and find out yourself. 030324 ... User24 I agree wholeheartedly with cube 030324 ... god funky fresh, dressed to impress, ready to party 030325 ... DaMon. One thing people forget, that in creating humans (who are the obvious cause of the strife and destruction going on), he gave us free will. We are not puppets. This is not a show which he rums as he wants. It's a show WE run. It goes around though. In giving us free will, he gave us the choice to hand it over to him. And since he is the strongest, all-knowing, and all that, his would be the best hands. 040605 ... _pax_ I have to say a lot of good point have been previously made . . . the point of "we are here to ask questions" and each of us have to find answers on our own. A lot of people have asked why God doesn't intervine when terrible things are happening . . . Well, as mentioned before . . . there is no fairy godmother in this world. I myself believe that we are here to learn. Learn what? That's for each of our individual selves to figure out. So God isn't going to come and wipe away every tear and put an end to every war as soon as it starts. I think maybe he wants us to learn to figure out how to resolve all that on our own. He has given us what we need to do it. We just have to figure out how. So ask questions . . . I'm not telling anyone this is how then have to think. . .I'm just trying to voice a possibility. I believe all things happen for a reason . . . I believe there is a lot of good and a lot of evil in this world. . . So that brings up the ever present theme that has traveled through the long existence of humanity. The battle of good and evil . . .I see myself as having a choice. . .learn from the terrible events that take place in life and try to make some kind of difference or become an angry, shake my fist at the world person. 040605 ... magicforest . 040605 ... see: Wayne_has_words 040605 ... taintedluv syzoke.....that was beautiful, thank you..Bright Blessings! 040606 ... Half-beleiver There is no doubt in my mind that God made this world. However, god will not intervene. This world is one of cause and effect. You die because you the cliff was there, and you were going too fast, not because you stole that guy's 500 dollar bike, not even because it will teach people to pay more attention to signs. It was because the cliff was there. If a tiger kills you, it's because it was hungry, and you were stupid enough to try and pet it. No supernatural powers involved. Perhaps at some point God did intervene, but he could not have done so in the form of a tiger, or a deer leaping for a cliff. The only way God could have intervened would be directly. But who knows? Maybe God IS the tiger that ate your sister. Still, the event can always be prevented, unless it is a direct assault from an almighty being of some sort. Which I doubt. note:Merely a conversational item, nothing to get mad about 040607 ... Arugula Red my friend says that God created the world and is passive now. I wonder if she'll sleep with me. 040608 ... god any of you who don't think i'm incompetent haven't been paying attention 040609 ... dosquatch God, you messed up. I know, everybody picks on the platypus, but actually I think you did alright there. Then they want to pick on politicians and lawyers - I figure that's a natural result of free will. I'm not too sure free will was the swiftest choice, but what the hey. No, I think the ultimate evidence that you're cracked is differential equations. I mean, seriously, what the fuck? 040609 ... nonlucid (i don't see why god has to be good, if it exists... it just is, like the world) 040628 ... Christ without the cross In my opinion God is everything. He is the light and the darkness. He is the hot the cold and the lukewarm. He is everything that exists. He is the 'good' and the 'evil' in the world. I use parenthesis because I believe that there is only good. i also believe that there is only love. All other things are illusions created in the world of the relative. Someone being crucified could be viewed as a horendous act or a marvelous blessing. It is all a matter of perspective. It is believed that the universe is infinite. If it is, is there a place where up ends and down begins. No matter how far down you go in the infinite you are still up from somewhere else. I think this is so with everything that God has created. where you are in relation to these things has an effect on your perspective unless you see the illusion. Someone who lives near the equator may find 60 degree weather to be cold. This may not be so for a person who lives in New York. What makes God seem like he does not exist is the same thing that has been stated many times through out this debate. Free will. God will not interfere with this not because he can't but because he chooses not to. he has complete faith in what he has created. Maybe we should adopt that faith. Somewhere in the existance of man kind we surrendered our power and our control. God gave us freedom so that we could be free to create our joy. We have allowed man to take that power out of fear. God does not use fear. Neither does he use force. He does not need to. He is not insecure. He is love. He speaks to us constantly. He speaks through feelings and experiences and thoughts and words. He speaks through everything. But what we have been led to believe is that anything feeling or suggestion that urges us to take control of our lives and our power is from the devil. It is this judgment (among many others) that creates so much unhappiness. We cannot accept ourselves or eachother and so we cannot truly seek our happiness because we doubt that our hearts are good. These judgments have separated us from God. Judgments have also separated us from eachother. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is inside you. James said that the spirit is within you and it will save you. So save yourself and live your life as if it didn't matter who was casting judgment. But do this with love. Love fearlessly everything that your heart calls you to. Let your love bring others to love. Let your life benefit others when they see how free you are and yet you still choose to be in love (everything is love but i mean your highest vision of what love is). Then all these myths about the evil nature of man will disappear. You are in the image of God and you are in his likeness. This is an opinion. You are not required to believe this. It is personal. 060930 ... Christ without the cross Try removing all judgments of people from your mind or simply choose not to entertain them. Observe. See but don't judge. You will realize after all the constant judging and attacking people's opinion are over and done the only thing that is left is enjoying your life. 060930 ... . Dear God, please don't allow this blathe from being broken.... 070808 ... WOW! AND I JUST FIXED IT. SO AM I GOD YET? 070809 ... Question man Gimme a break. 070809 ... dafremen God? You're soaking in it. You ate it for breakfast. It made you your breakfast. It made you its bitch one time. It looks up at you like a God, because it sees you. It pleads for mercy with its eyes and awaits the type of God you are. 160717 what's it to you? who go blather from