Dafremen Who are we?
What defines us and our mission if, indeed, we have such a thing?
Will a common goal emerge?
While exploring our individual visions for elevenation and the unity it represents,will common ground reveal a common purpose?

What's elevenation?
Dafremen Is this then, the challenge put before mankind by this so-called society? To see past the charade and DO something about make a difference? Is that all? So why haven't we done it yet? Is it that we have bitched and moaned about freewill and choice and freedom and God for so damned long that we haven't taken the time to noticed how very much of the first three Man has been given and how little any of Man's creations resemble the latter's eminently superior products. How very crude and wasteful are our designs and our creations for eternity's purposes. How frail and crumble-prone are our finest and most durable manufactures when timed in scale with nature's perfect, slow, gentle forever rythms...her dulce..her warmth. Whereas our streets are cold, how very intimidating our concrete magnificence. Millions of tons of steel, scores of floors in glass and ten thousand years of brass balls..down for the count in 200 years or less. Another dirt clod pulverized in the down-swing of time's immortal hammer. The universe marches on and on and on...(I can almost hear the children in the background going Ha hA!)..and still we build better mechanical eyes and arms and ears and, like infants we reach out to understand and when we can't we blame it on God.

If anything has taken freewill from us..it is MAN and SOCIETY. Look around you? Where is God? Where are those Creations that aren't the products of Man's freewill? Those gates are steel...made in the U.S.A, by Union Labor according to the stamp. Couldn't be God-made...his work is usually pearlier..more durable...less offensive to the eye and to the dignity. (God most CERTAINLY had nothing to do with the Crusades.) God's gates may be opened and closed at will. It is up to US to leave those gates closed, that must remain closed. We are given freewill by Nature and that is the Creator's way.. the Universe's way. It's been around alot longer than any of this crap that we've been doing for a blip n a half of the clock here on the surface of planet "Help! My Children Have Lost Their Minds!"

Is THIS then the challenge put before us?! To fix up what we screwed up and stand up to those who would put up concrete mock ups while like puppets and guppies we go where the hand behind us pushes us to go? Is THIS our challenge? Or are we so NOT enamored of our freewill that we will content ourselves to waste it away like fools improving on the art of burning lives and Earth until we have neither left to burn? Look around you at these horrors and cruelties and madness and know exactly what it is that you're looking at: THIS is our freewill; we've had it all along. This is the best we could come up with in a few hundred thousand years..a "disposable planet, disposable people economics" based society. There it is..there is your precious freewill and mine. Is this what YOU want to do with it? Burn it away for handfuls of dirt and misery?

Not me...no way. This could be my only shot man..I'm going for it. I've got to..this is MY freewill, not society's...MINE. I'm not wasting it HOPING for a better way anymore. I'm STILL taking_it_to_the_streets and it will march on in any event, with me or without me. I choose to march along with these footsteps headed off the beaten path. Their barefooted patter leads me home. This land is ours to return to sanity. This is our society that "Man's" freewill has perverted and polluted.
the_priestly_jellyfish A magic spell for success and happiness:

Step 1 -

As you walk down the street, try to see every face that can be seen. See them as they are..as familiar faces, not as the strangers that they have always appeared to be.

See the old man, see the young couple, see the little baby and his mother. See the policeman and the bus driver. See the shoppers and the stompers and the bikers.

See them and imagine their story, imagine their lives, imagine what might be their dreams..and their dilemmas(of course in a big crowd...just work on seeing them all.)

Imagine what their wives and children might look like, where they might live and what they might do for a living. Imagine that they are your uncle, or your aunt, or perhaps, your little brother. Imagine that they are your big sister, or that they are your teacher.

Imagine that they know you, and just forgot to say "Hi!"...maybe their minds are on their troubles. Perhaps they could use a friend, perhaps that friend could be you. Perhaps they need advice or a shoulder to cry on. Perhaps they have no friends and they have been looking for you everywhere.

Get in the habit. Force yourself to...no matter how foolish you might feel, or how afraid you might be that they will take your searching eyes the wrong way. Don't stare. Just look and imagine..it doesn't matter if you are wrong about them, as long as you always imagine the very BEST and most positive image of them that you can come up with.

Do this for 4 solid weeks or as long as it takes to really get into the habit.

Step 2 -

Start to approach the ones that seem most approachable, no matter how embarrassed you may be, or how unapproachable the most approachable may appear to be.

As you approach them, think of something simple to say.

"Hi, I couldn't help but notice your ______. I just wanted to tell you that I think it's cool." (It doesn't matter whether you do or not, IMAGINE that you do. You should be pretty good at that by now.)

If they respond negatively, just smile and say "Just thought I'd let you know...sorry to bother you." Then move on.

If they respond favorably, ask them another question...like "So..where'd you get _________, if you don't mind my asking?"

Continue to ask and answer questions for as long as they seem interested, and respond favorably.

The minute they seem to become too uncomfortable or suspicious, excuse yourself and move on. There are no end to the number of questions that you can ask them, but ASK! Most people love to talk about themselves and their lives.

Step 3 -

Repeat step 2 for the rest of your life.

You will find yourself quickly surrounded by familiar faces, by people who know you and who share something with you..a connection.

Your world will suddenly seem a smaller and safer place to live in.

You will make contacts that will stand you in good stead for the rest of your life.

You will find jobs that you could have never known about, you will learn where the best deals are, you will learn about the most delicious recipes and what the best techniques for doing all manner of things are.

You will learn how other people live and what they do, hope and dream.

You will have stepped outside of your box and into the reality of a dream.

First spell's free. Second one is going to cost you. The price isn't too steep though:

Simply follow through with this first bit of sorcery and when it has worked it's magic, smile. Know that you are not only blessed, but have blessed yourself.

Then come ask for another spell. It will be yours for the taking.


ferret once again, i'll say what i've said so much recently.

America is not freedom, it is only the closest thing to freedom
Dafremen Just a question, not a critique or commentary on your statement:

How many other countries have you lived in?
ferret hmmm none really, but that was more of a perspective type statement and less of an "this is how it is" kind of statement. or something, if you catch my drift 031012
Dafremen Certainly. : ) 031012
knot meat yay. you're finally starting your cult. i'm jealous.

know what always sucked about john lennon? someone shot him in the head. i mean i listen to the song oh yoko and it feels like being in love. and is love a constant or a feeling that sometimes overwhelms other feelings at the right times? and i just think, as long as they were away from everything it was all lying in bed and waking up at 330 after noon after having made love four times and saying, so...what do you wanna do today? but they can't be away from everyone. and there's always gonna be someone who wants to take something, and not just your apple, or your place in line, but your mind, your body, everything that isn't out of their grasp. so they'll shoot you. or maybe they're crazy and so they shoot you because they think the moon told them it was the best course of action. and so i picture yoko happy, and then alone because all of the commotion leaves her like that, and they think she ended the beatles when really someone killed her so that the beatles would never evolve and pop would stay, you know like the apollonian systemization and subversion of rock's dionysian function, and so she goes from warm and in bed and a gentle smile to well a pop artist which isn't the same (though they look the same to the outsider) and yet it all trails off at the end like the harmonica music at the end of oh yoko and i think...do songs only last while they're on? nothing has changed. and yet a year ago there she is on a billboard saying war is over if you want it. but there's no music, and all i really wanted was to see her smiling in his arms in a room with good natural lighting and i wouldn't even care if they were richer than a lot of people because well they'd be giving a lot more than they took and it takes a lot to love as a choice because it means you've understood the value of your life from outside the righteousness and lust that got us here to being with and will triumph in a battle with a pacifist anyday.

"in the middle of a bath, in the middle of a bath i call your name. oh yoko, oh yoko, oh yoko, my love will turn you on. in the middle of a dream, in the middle of a dream i call your name. oh yoko, oh yoko, oh yoko, my love will turn you on."
Dafremen How long have you been telling yourself this? 031013
Dafremen see also: og_mandino 031013
knot meat yeah i know...there's that story the smile where the guard lets the prisoner go and that and this. and then there's the survey i learned about in class today in which 30% of men of a "representative" sample in new york said they would consider rape if they knew they'd never be caught or get in any trouble. i'm all for happiness. hail the 11s and whatnot. i've just seen a whole lot of mean and nasty. though we're cooperative...in the world we came up in, a little agression helped. what did og think about the war he took part in? 031013
Dafremen A better question might be..what does he think of war now?

Another point is this, your philosophies are not my philosophies, nor are Mr. Mandino's beliefs my beliefs. However we CAN learn something from each other. You from me, I from you, both of us from Og(he from us.)

Elevenation is NOT a cult. (Although what's a cult anyhow? A religion that never took off..right?) It is simply THIS:

A place where we agree that unity is worth pursuing and where we discuss our individual beliefs and visions for making worldwide unity and cooperation a reality. We MUST start SOMEWHERE.

It's like cleaning your room. At first it seems like the dirty clothes and pizza boxes will never end. Like the task is too daunting, and too much of a distraction from more pleasureable pursuits to even be worth considering.

Pick up that first dirty sock. Straighten up that first shelf. Move on to making the bed. Whatever, but you HAVE to start somewhere if you would like to enjoy the rewards of not living like an animal.

Let's start the task by deciding what it is that we each would like to see. By sharing our beliefs and ideas, and by LEARNING from one another.

The only reason that you'll see the name dafremen more than the others, is because noone else is speaking. So SPEAK up, productively and with a sincere eye toward change..whether you believe that change is possible or not.

You cannot win the lottery if you do not buy a ticket. And you cannot buy a ticket if you aren't willing to pay the price of that ticket. In this case, by simply sharing your ideas.

Let's clean up our dirty laundry so that we can get back to life and stop living like animals.

That's all I'm asking.
knot meat i know. i know what you're asking. believe or not but this isn't something i haven't asked myself. the thing is, some people want to live like animals. some positions are mutually exclusive. some people think there's nothing wrong with animals. 031013
Dafremen As for the surveys and the experiments..

Sorry, but pointing to ANY study that was conducted with broken test subjects, ie those humans that were raised in a broken system, cannot be taken as conclusive evidence that human nature is this that or the other. It simply cannot.

What if you stuck a group of babies in a cage and beat them without killing them..over and over and over until they were adults?

Would you REALLY expect their reactions in various situations to be typical of the human species?

Well what if the entire framework of society did something VERY similar?

Where is your control group?

You have none, and so the results of these experiments are SKEWED by the anomalies created when bringing up individuals in a twisted society.
Dafremen Again, what fostered those beliefs in those individuals? I'm talking chicken and egg. I'm suggesting that we need to BREAK the cycle before we will EVER know what the human race and its society is capable of. You are an intelligent individual with an obvious grasp of some very complex ideas.

Hasn't it occured to you that your intelligence could be used to make a difference, rather than simply being used as a tool which effectively repeat the programming of a machine that cranked both of us out?

When we choose to propagate the notion that change is not possible, and that that. We have done our part in the programming and in propagating a "truth" that for all we know, may be the world's most insidious lie.
knot meat change is possible. but it really for me doesn't break down to a difference completely in envoirments. this is why i don't think the effects are skewered. after all, 70% obviously weren't of the same "broken" bent. what i think it is is that we live in a world that's broken. there's only so much energy, only so many resources and people tend to, for the most part, if they have the choice between just having their own or having yours as well as their own, take both. they had to have a little bit of that just to make it in the original envoirment we evolved in. like i said, we came up in a hard world so we're going to be in some places hard. I think the problem is in the human heart and that my discouragement is more result than cause. there is a game theory experiment called "the prisoner's dillemma. The main gist of it is that there are two prisoners who are both offered the same deal. If neither of you implicate each other in a crime you both serve short sentences. If one of you implicates and the other does not, the implicator goes scot-free and the other does a life sentence. If both implicate, a medium sentence is served. The safest thing to do is of course defect. You avoid the worst case scenario and you might even go free. Of course, the dillemma is that this is the best option for the other prisoner as well. Over time, defectors tend to do better than cooperators, and so spring up because their very existence continues itself while it costs the cooperators much more to lose to a defector than their gain in meeting another cooperator. Another variation of this is a cake metaphor. If there are greedy types who upon meeting demand 2/3 of a cake and a modest type who willingly gives 1/3 of a cake, both can co-exist with neither outnumbering the other ever since the nature of their meetings precludes every creature from being greedy. If, however, there's a super greedy who demands all, and a super modest who only asks for what they are given, both will eventually be run out. A fair minded version which demands half everytime would get nothing from the greedy since they'd demand more than the whole and wouldn't get as much as the greedy do from the modest. The payoff would be less. Eventually, however, a fair strategy could succeed if the greedy were ostracized from the bargaining table. That is, if people had memories of when they were taken advantage of, and could mark those thiefs, then the population could eventually favor the fair and just. Either way though, when the modest becomes the default, the greedy will thrive as well. That is my point. Greed, when well timed, worked as a strategy when we were evolving, and it works now unfortunately. The survivors write history. I don't need to tell anyone that. I'm not trying to be pessimistic and shrug off the whole enterprise i just think if we're going to make any changes we have to start by admitting that our heart isn't just a light hidden under the contrivances of circumstance and modern life. i'm saying it was no accident our world is broken. it started out broken. fixing it can only involve a government which understands our tendencies and works towards limiting them and encouragin the "better angels" of our nature as president lincoln called them. there will always be those who opt out though. those who go amok, who cannot stand not being as well-adjusted, or attractive, or happy. There are always going to be those who see a sucker and take them for what they're worth because they don't do well playing fair. I hate how life is competitive sometimes. I love to concentrate on, "to each their own" but sometimes people both just need that piece of land, that lover, and etc. And i'm not saying they won't share under the right circumstances. I'm just saying if given their druthers, their absolute choice, especially when they think they have a good chance of taking it with impunity, would they share it? I don't know. That is where i doubt. If you think i think about these things just to discourage you, you have missed me entirely. I think about these things because i want answers, i want answers for the questions people ask me, the same questions i'm asking you. simplifications are fine untill you meet a complex problem. even then, you focus on what you do understand and do control right? but no matter what, you can never ignore a truth just because it doesn't make things work. And i think a basic human truth is that some of the ugliness in this world, came from our hearts, was our hearts answer to the world. I try to eliminate what i can, and i know many who do the same, but does everyone? Can everyone have what they want under certain rules? And if they can't, what's to stop them from breaking them? Why should they accept their own suffering or pining rather than yours? I don't know. 031013
Dafremen You keep speaking of your experiences in a world that has never known a time when someone somewhere wasn't brought up to believe that there is a "sucker born every minute."

The results of those observations are skewed. There is NO getting around that.
There is no way that you can prove that things wouldn't be different if children were raised everywhere..to care and have a social conscience.

You simply cannot.

Neither can I prove that things WOULD be different, but HERE is the difference:

We have already lived the status quo and you yourself have saved me considerable time and effort by painting that bleak and depressing picture for anyone that would read your words. This is what there is, predatory animals where humans should be.

What would there be if we could change the way that we see the world and the people in it? How would the results of your observations and the result of a sickness that created such a bleak and "realistic" outlook in you, have changed if the children that now make up the adults in our society had been raised to value things besides those things that they are currently raised to value?

Therein lies the basic flaw in your argument. You are arguing for a way of living that is failing on a daily basis, when another possibility exists that you dare not indulge, for fear of....what?

That you would be making a horrible mistake by placing all of your chips on US to win?

For fear that we might not make it?

That we might end up right back where we are right now?

For the life of me, I cannot see the logic of your arguments because they simply state again and again.."this is all we have known and therefore this is all that there is."

My comments about your intelligence weren't a veiled attempt to blow smoke up your @$$. In fact, quite the opposite. They were a request that you put a little more thought into what you are saying, because there is something in you that is capable of seeing what so many more could not:

We simply have NOTHING to lose and everything to gain. This isn't a gamble, it's an investment.

Again, what exactly is it that we have to fear?

You mention the word pacifist...do I look like I am going peacefully into my grave?

Who is it that won't FIGHT? Those that think like you? Or those that believe as I do, who are willing to put their BACKS into the struggle?

You and those that believe as you do?

Or those that would devote themselves to unseating a system that simply has proven that it DOES NOT WORK?

We are not cowards. We are not stupid.

The courage of our conviction should be obvious..and yet you mistake it for WEAKNESS?

You are not required to wake up, if slumber is your choice...but for GAWD sake...don't point to the fighters and the movers and the shakers and call them pacifists.

A pacifists is one who chooses NOT to fight.

So...are you a pacifist? Are you WEAK or are you strong?

Each wolf in a pack loses its identity outside the safety of conformity to the pack's law.

The coyote roams free and knows it's strengths, for they are strengths that do not depend upon the group's notion of strength.

The coyote's is either strong, or he is weak and his survival decides which.

When we are all lying in a pile of ashes somewhere, or cowering behind locked doors, the living dead..will this STRENGTH and POWER you speak of have proven its value to our survival as a race?

We are up against the greatest predator on the planet US.

All of the rest of our history was consumed with the domination of inferior challenges.

This way of living you claim as your "reality" is obsolete.

It was sufficient for the domination of dumb animals and the subjugation of our own people, but how will this system fair against our own kind now that we have made materialistic predators of them?

The answer should be obvious. Particularly since you've done nothing but hold up the wretched examples of its failures like some sort of trophy.

Again, who is the pacifist? Who are the strong and who are the weak?

Explain the failure of the "strong" that you speak of, to the future. And they will thank you for selling them out to embrace a system that had failed them long before you were born.

History will not allow you to feign ignorance. Perhaps temporary insanity would be a better plea.
Dafremen After reading your latest blathe, I will only ask you one question.

Who would choose to implicate his brother, if we were taught from birth to value each other as much or more than we value ourselves? Who would implicate their brother? In the Mafia, they call such a rat bastard. Within strong families, such is called a traitor and quite often disowned. Therein lies the flaw in that argument of yours. They would turn their backs on a STRANGER. This, because we have been RAISED to see each other as divided and as strangers. In unity, we are brothers. Someone just has to take the first step, be the first to give up his self interests for common interest. Well, here we are. We're extending our hands...brother. Your move.
knot meat my point was and always is, that the reason you can't affect change is because the odds are still in favor of the defectors. that was my point. we are still in the prison, and there will always be defectors. when you say are you afraid putting your chips with us will be a mistake, you sum it up exactly, it will be a mistake as long as there are those out there willing to cheat at the system. willing to say, okay, you go ahead and limit your amount of emissions a year and search for cheaper sources of energy, we're going to use this cheap source as much as we can and undercut you with our costs....and we bet there will be people in your world who will buy our products. and if you want to stop those people, what do you do? you fight a war? there are neo-nazis in this world. These are people who effectively say we don't even care if you are doing your own thing, we want you destroyed. What in your message appeals to them? You're right it's the status qou, but it isn't like things haven't changed in human history. The only thing that's remained constant, over a variety of settings, is conflict, love, lust, violence. The various settings of history are my control groups. The human heart has shown crossover effects. I do not think it's a lack of intelligence on my part that says you can take the tiger out of the jungle but not the jungle out of the tiger. The human heart isn't that simple. And thank god. In Nazi germany, there were people who knew it was wrong and fought against it, despite the huge amount of propoganda to the contrary. Unfortunately, you take the good with the bad, and so I hold that sometimes a person who seemingly has everything will want just a little more. We may not have tried your exact experiment, but certainly we have not always existed in the exact same society, and yet the same concerns have shown up again and again. The problem is that now they are on a scale that has unforseen consequences. I don't necessarily disagree that sometimes war creates peace, i just don't see what has led you to believe that you can eliminate the ills of the world when your solution assumes they start somewhere it appears they don't. You say i haven't proven anything, but frankly, the concerns i bring up have occured in vastly different sections of the world in vastly different historical circumstances. While this is no proof, it is at least evidence, something which your proposal lacks. You expect people to take only what they need and to do right because they want to? The problem is, what is right? Respecting what another thinks is right? Sorry to harp on one point here, but where do we fit the neo-nazis then? Who decides what is right? Unless you live in a dictatorship (notorious for getting the right wrong) the best thing we've got going is the pluracracy of voices in a democracy. Because right should be an average, it isn't absolute. Yes the human heart has its tendencies, and when balanced with the tendencies of others and their necessities in our lives we arrive at what is socially appropriate. I don't understand why you seem to think that anyone who doesn't agree with your plan is asleep at the wheel or complacent because of society. We're all active in little ways, but i've never once forgotten what people are capable of because i think there's some shell we're supposed to molt. That's a very spiritual stance for a pain that's flesh. If you're right, well that's fantastic, I'll live in your world. But untill then, i stick by the facts that sometimes it's better to lie, that companies will look after their bottom lines if they can get away with it. I've seen people who were doing just fine on an agreement screw their friends for a little more. Now what differentiates that from your world? They weren't afraid of competition, they were doing just fine, but they wanted more. It's left over competitiveness from the world they're in i suppose? You offer the what if of another world, i say, what if this is the only one? Why should i waste anytime subscribing to your theory when all it does is cost me my position in the one true world. You are just like the cooperator in the prisoner's dillemma, if you're right you gain much, but if you're wrong you lose a whole lot too. You claim that all of these people are part of this world that is looking for suckers, so why would they ever want to join this plan when all it takes is someone else to defect and take advantage of what they aren't taking advantage of. You're right that we're entering a new time in this planet's story, and we can appreciate it on a rational level, but that doesn't mean our smallball has changed, that doesn't mean the psychology we employ with those around us and with our business etc. can ever see the big picture, when the big picture wasn't what we really developed around. Look, i want a change as much as anyone. I'm just out of high school practically. I remember crying to my counselor that nobody gives a shit. I remember after the Columbine tragedy all of the teachers saying how sad it was, and talking to us about it. A week later my friend couldn't go to prom because he got a D in a class, despite the fact that prom was like the thing he'd been looking forward to forever. The teachers didn't really care about what they purported to, they cared about the bottom line. And they had to, because otherwise, someone would hold them accountable, and better some kid than them. And that's how it is. If you're going to change, you've got to take it on yourself. And those people often become martyrs. And if you say well, force is okay, you have to be prepared for the idea that someone else with horrible ideas could very well posess a greater force. You act as if your ideas are inevitable or as if once people see them realized they will realize the ignorance they had been living in. But some ignorances might not have to be taught. It seems so easy sometimes....i work hard because he does and he does because i do so why don't we both just agree to work less hard? Because that is the prisoner's dillemma and we're all in it, and if history has shown us one thing, it's that it doesn't matter if what you're doing is for the best reasons in the world, to some that makes you a sucker. And you can retaliate and say how brainwashed i am and pick at pieces of my rant and whatever, but it doesn't change that fact. You're basing your understanding of the human heart on your heart, and that isn't a representative sample. There's a reason Utopia means nowhere etc. etc. Look, i want to change the world as much as you do. I respect that you've left your job and made that hard choice, but it's not enough to talk about how people are sleeping and letting the world pass us by and how we act like dumb animals, I want to hear specifics of what you think this world is going to be like, and how you plan to eliminate some inborn facets of the human heart, like jealousy of another's looks, talents, etc.? or coveting of another's property, relationships etc.? How are you planning on bridging that disconnect between what i think is a good idea and what you think is a good idea when they concern the same piece of land? And please, don't respond in anger, or bring my intelligence or yours into this, it's only an illustration of the problem, because any world is going to include a lot of dumb people like me in it, and the idea of philosopher kings doesn't appeal to the masses very often. 031013
knot meat and as for historical precedents to a society where social conscience and community was preached, the Native Americans (though there are some exceptions) for the most part are a good example. They didn't have a border control, they helped the first settlers, they moved along when skirmishes threatened life too much and never tried to expand beyond what was liveable in the context of the earths regenerations. And they were slaughtered. By germs and guns. And i guess that's what it comes down to. Do you view people as some elevated creation? or do you view them as germs with shoes? 031013
knot meat and as for teaching everyone the same thing, i do believe that if nothing else, one thing the human creature instinctively does is question authority. and here's where you say, but you haven't. to which i reply whatever. but seriously, you tell people what a good idea something is and it's inevitable someone says who are you to tell me it? this is why force has been required for every totalitarian government. if you could describe a government that was both totalitarian and was totally in agreement with everyone, please do. i feel that it's a contradiction. government is by definition the right to use force. What i'm saying is that you can't teach people not to do certain things. You couldn't teach me not to be hungry. Humans have the capacity for good and evil. I tend to be a democratic realist. You say i'm not realistic at all about it. So what do you think humans are that if you just teach them to care about each other they will? You think that makes them smarter? You think people don't already know that caring for each other has its benefits? I think people become callous and "learn" not to trust each other when they're betrayed. And i think betrayal isn't only a reaction, it's a behavior that sometimes occurs to people to do, and that some people listen to and some don't. But i don't think it only comes down to how their mama raised them. But really, like i said before, what i want to know is what you plan on doing that is going to make the world different, and why you think i'm sleeping to not agree with you automatically, when its the kind of critical thinking people exhibit in debates that keeps them free from tyranny. 031013
Dafremen No, the notion isn't that my ideas are inevitable.

The notion is that we don't discuss them because too many people are willing to throw their hands in the air and give up before they've even tried.

"We can't do anything, so why even try?" is what these people repeat to themselves until they believe it. It sounds like fat people saying they can't lose weight, or drug addicts saying they can't quit or cigarette smokers saying that they can't kick it because everyone at work smokes. (I've been all three. I've lost the weight, stopped using drugs and kicked the habit.)

How will you EVER know until you try?

With all due respect...and I really mean that, you aren't a realist as much as all of the others of your ilk might pat you on the back for your practical perspective and your down-to-earth reasoning.

You are what is known as a defeatist.

Your ARGUMENTS defeat the process.

You state what IS and what CAN BE and what CAN NEVER be, without ever having tried.

That isn't realism, that is sabatoge..plain and simple.

You won't ever give the idea a chance to stop being an idea, because you'd rather be a 50watt speaker for the very system that already has soooo many of your kind propagating a notion based on NOTHING. A brainwashing machine powered by its own victims. How tragic is that?

That's right, your notions are based on nothing..
Certainly not experience, because if we've never gotten there, if we've never GOTTEN to the point where are children were raised in unity, then we've haven't experienced anything.

All we are basing our suppositions on are what we've been told. No wait, let me take that back. All the defeatists are basing their arguments on is what they've been told. I base my suppositions on the notion that doing something and failing beats the odds of doing NOTHING and failing twice as miserably. Better to fail having tried, than to fail saying that it never occurred to me to.

There is a saying that goes like this:

If it's the EASY way, it's probably the WRONG way.

I'm through taking the easy way.

Now if you'll excuse me..this is, as I've been saying about division and debate lately..a waste of time. We have filled this blathe with the rantings of two people who have closed their minds, their ears and their hearts and have instead, embraced their egos. MY mistake as well as yours.

I frankly can't STAND Jerry Springer. This is little more than more of the same. I'm practically ashamed of myself for having engaged you in this. I'm better than this...and so are you...we all are.

(Exit..stage RIGHT.)
knot meat okay...but one last question...if people have to be taught to take advantage of a sucker....where did the practice arise from? answer that and i'll be satisfied. 031013
knot meat and i don't know where you heard that i didn't think things could be changed. some things can be changed, some things can't. i believe what people pray for is the wisdom to know the difference. lots of human behaviors can be changed. but can all of them? you act like i'm a defeatist but i'm not. i totally believe we shouldn't put up with the type of governmental policies we have today, i think there are much better ways to resolve conflicts than our tired old patterns, but i also don't think that we're going to eliminate gravity anytime soon. rather, we have to contend with it, and deal with its consequences and limitations. human behavior is the same way. there are certain givens and if you want results you have to work around them and with them, not just think they'll go away. now i don't know why you think this is an unproductive process but it's fine if you don't want to argue about it. i wish you had answered the earnest questions i had which were really your best chance at convincing me and anyone i imagine. so where did our original sin come from? 031013
Dafremen Simple..our egos.

If we had been raised in the habit of looking outside of ourselves, we wouldn't embrace those egos so tightly that we disregard others.

You ask what the origin of our selfishness is?

Again, simple..we evolved from animals.

We are human beings now. It's time to break the chain because we are capable of raising our children to be something that we were NOT raised to be...and because we are no longer animals.
Dafremen There is your answer...now can we drop this? Creating division is all we're doing. Let's hope that the record of our idiocy here will serve some purpose for those who come along and have the patience to read this sh*t. 031013
knot meat oh stop pandering to the masses...it's so herd of you...so animalistic. haha...besides, wouldn't egos be what supposedly separate us from animals? can't even have a conversation with you without it turning all vicious. and you're supposed to be changing the world for the better. tsk tsk. shame on you roger dafremen. shame on you. oh by the way, me and my ilk are getting together to watch dogfighting next weekend and we were wondering if you'd like to come. there'll be beer. 031013
Dafremen I'm not being vicious, and you are attempting to determine my mood from words. That's usually a mistake unless something particularly venomous pops out. My tone is one of disappointment with myself. Does that shed any clarity on the situation? And I have NEVER pandered to the masses. I serve them like crazy, but I do not PANDER to anyone. Please stop trying to analyze me, you will fail and would rather not have to demonstrate that. (And I again, am not trying to bruise your ego or start a fight..I am trying to save us both some more typing.)

Don't make me sic my wife's pilates ball on you. It has bumps and a 20 minute video..and I'm NOT kidding about that.
Dafremen P.S. I don't even kill cockroaches...so the dogfighting would sicken me. And I stopped smoking weed and drinking beer 10 days ago. I won't be indulging anymore. Need to keep the mind clear. 031013
knot meat you're right, implying idiocy isn't that strong i guess. i mean it's at least a couple steps above imbecelic and retarded and it's not very judgemental or sanctimonious. but again those are moods and i shouldn't infer them from mere words. anyways sorry to disappoint you. have fun saving the world. and don't get yourself nailed up to anything. but if you do, i'll be the first to wear your necklace. the sisters of mercy be with you.

ps. i'm glad you're clean. i have been since at least yesterday. but seriously my ninja missions preclude any drug but constant caffeine and the occasional meth binge. also i find dogfighting to be quite distasteful. now people fighting like dogs on the other hand...that's a sport!
alli you thrive off of conflict
you make me sad
what dafreman said here makes sense
we are not animals anymore
but you dont care
you just want the sport
you want the argument
and if you cant feed your ego
you must have the last word
he was right
you are what comes
from a broken system
and an old outdated way of thinking
i would call you a relic
but you would only absorb it
and grow off of it
because you feed off of conflict
i will let you make me sad.
knot meat very sweet of you. but i still haven't figured out what makes us better than animals? if anything i think we should return to a more humble existance. either way, maybe i'm the result of a broken system, and maybe i'd be like this either way. i won't really talk about what daf is like either, based on his past actions because maybe he's changed. anyways, sorry you're sad. 031014
stork daddy and honestly, the outdated way of thinking is this, rationality is what will save us and allow us to take our place atop the animals and all creation. rationality is not this separate thing, it's part of a organism that's struggling with the emotional investment it has in things which aren't always better in the long run but are habits it can't give up. and any answer will have to take those tendencies into account. a smoker can quit smoking, but they have to know what triggers them, and when they absolutely can't resist. 031014
Dafremen I somehow knew this was you. Why do the simple words of a random stranger evoke an almost tangible air of want and even, goodness, in you man?

Like this, wanting to be understood..no wait, I'll do you the same favor I asked in return. I will refrain from analyzing you.

I'm not here to feed your ego, if alli is right, and you may by all means have the last word. You are right, you are right..you are a thousand times right.

That's not going to stop me from trying to make a difference man. I'm not trying to save the world. I'm incapable of such a thing and you know it. Together, however, the human race CAN fix itself, because,I WAS a smoker and I know that at LEAST in this one point...just this little point, you are mistaken, not out of weakness, but perhaps from simple lack of experience:
A smoker doesn't need to know what triggers his smoking to leave it behind, simply that he wants to quit.

This ALSO is rational, and right and logical. How will he do it? Ahhhhhh there is what kicks each and every smoker's butt that WANTS to quit, man. Because the methods that will work for all are far outweighed by those that won't work for most. Having decided to quit, however is their common first step.

That's all we're saying. Let's take that first step. GIVE US YOUR IDEAS FOR HOW..PLEASE. You do not have a rival here anymore. You can make of me and the past what you will, but fixating on yesterday will only keep us where we are while time plows ahead without us.

I am not your enemy. My disappointment with MY OWN idiocy, then, is my penance for continuing this. But this world could use you, mighty defender of the underdog. This world IS the underdog, stork. You have been given great gifts, with great potential for helping it through its growing pains, or at least for helping others.

Please..and I ask you very sincerely (and there are folks that were my "enemies" here that would testify to the sincerity of my change) stop tearing down what little I can do. It is so very little, and I am so very wrong, that what harm could be done by letting me try in peace?

Another old man wastes his life away titling at windmills. Let me have this in the final half of my life.

Today is my 35th birthday. Give me this one birthday wish, and you and I can spar on and on about any other subject you would like.
stork daddy happy birthday 031014
Dafremen Thank you. This means a great deal to me. Name your subject and I will try to find it and we can tussle in the blue for as long as it entertains. Thanks man. 031015
oE yo' daf..belated happy birthday
Dafremen Well thank you sir. I'm 35 and feeling every week of it.

: )
somebody He's baaaaaaacccckkk! 040411
smurfus rex really? 040411
realistic optimist *looks around* 040411
Christ without the cross I love you guys. I have never met you but it feels like i have known you my whole life. I am growing in so many ways by hearing you guys speak. I am taking in everything. I am hearing your words and it is giving me peace. i see no differences in argument. maybe we should return to a simpler life. There is one thing i know. i have grown and for some reason i can't seem to disagree with anyone. We all hold the truth. the absolute truth is in everything. You can find it. It is an amazing feeling and that is the truth. Truth is a feeling. I have felt it all over since i have come to this site.

Put down the weapons of defensiveness and the useless appliance called judgment. i am growing in love and i can see a simple truth in every word on this page. We are unique but in that uniqueness we are the same. We say the same things in different ways. Fear has raised from my body. i am walking forward. We all can. But i have come to a place where i can understand those who want to stand still. it is not their time yet. but whoever feels a fire in their veins let it spread throughout your body and let it give your feet movement. Change has been inspired Love. Love has been unleashed. For those who wish to grab it, it is there. And the path can be traveled in many ways. Let us accept the differences and open our eyes to the similarities. We are all on the same journey.

We are the image of love. God is love.
what's it to you?
who go