god_hates_sinners dafremen Life, it seems, makes no sense. This from the misguided perspectives of many casual observers..and from the over-active imaginations of our more industrial strength thinkers. Some say life is meaningless. Others say that it is about "survival of the fittest". (The label "fittest" being applied to those who most consistently and successfully act out the part of self-serving predator. Read: "go-getter", "hustler" or even "up-and-comer") There are those who claim that we're here to work like slaves. They say that we must smile while suffering the indignities that are heaped upon us by others, so that we can die content and receive our eternal reward. Don't expect the kingdom of heaven to stop whatever important matters it attends to during those brief moments between an eternity of saint-scheduled meetings..just to relieve a little temporary human suffering. That's why the same great folks that brought you "Heaven: Mighty Carrot In the Sky" provided a daily supplement called prayer. We pray to remind us that Heaven's up there and we'd better not forget..nevermind that "Heaven the Abstract Philosophy" might've temporarily forgotten about us. But that's ok...be strong. Keep your chin up. Go to work every day like a good boy or girl so as to render unto Uncle Sam Caesar that which is his. Well, except for the 10% of your take home which, as everyone knows, belongs to some hugely famous guy named God who needs all of the cash he can get his hands on. After all, the champagne and caviar are forever in heaven..which ain't cheap. You DO want your great-grandparents to continue enjoying the "Great Orgy In The Sky" don't you? After all...they earned it. They're dead. Cash is preferred, but alternative methods of payment are also accepted. Make checks payable to..Father Michael Dunleavy or whoever happens to read your Holy book into a microphone on Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays. (Understand that because God doesn't trust bankers any more than we do, He doesn't have a bank account. Still, who doesn't hate check cashing fees? Father Dunleavy, Pastor Steve, Rabbi Goldsteinenberg and Mohammed Akbar Shegal each independently volunteered to help God out by depositing His money. Luckily for God (and us), they DO have bank accounts.) There are some souls that don't believe in God or meaning at all. Judging by the reactions of God's ambassadors here on Earth, the Almighty must be up for reelection or something. By the way, if you meet a person who refuses to vote for God, it's OK to judge them. You're also expected to hate them and do unto them whatever makes the soul-less heathen suffer. It says so in the Bible. That's how God keeps overcrowding in Hell down..by contracting out some "Judgement Day" torturing to the over-zealous and bored. (The relief provided by sneering and being self-righteous probably helps God's "chosen ones" pass the time until they die and go to Heaven. Maybe it would be fairer and more efficient if God just let them die earlier...you know...time off for good behavior. They ALSO earned it.) So yea, what ABOUT these folks that don't believe in God? Haven't they heard the Good News? Haven't they seen all of the huge buildings the Lord had built for us to thank Him in? (Interesting fact: The word God translates to "Lord of of Fancy Buildings and Infallible Preachers" from the original Hebrew.) It takes an awful lot of thanking to let God know how much we appreciate the opportunity to be bored shitless by a guy who can't wait to tell us all of the uninteresting things he learned in seminary school. (Well, they ARE trying to save us after all. God doesn't save souls...preachers, priests and rabbis do.) And then there's the chance to sing the Lord's praises. A 19th century karaoke performed by 500 or so off-key amateurs, whose monotone droning only slightly masks the sound of your own voice howling the lyrics to some song penned by a guy named Matthias or Günter which dates back to the Middle Ages. Who wouldn't be overjoyed by the experience?! But that's not all we have to thank God for... There's the thrill of being surrounded by real mahogany, gold gilt, marble and other expensive materials that you don't normally get to see while living in abject poverty. I'd say thanks are definitely in order. And then there's this: Haven't these Godless heretics heard? Jesus was butchered so that it wouldn't matter what we do. We're forgiven..no matter what. We just have to claim Jesus as Lord and confess our most sinful sins to Father Dunleavy so that he can continue to supplement his income writing letters to Penthouse Forum. (Hey...don't forget..he's DEFINITELY forgiven. Remember, he works for God, Jesus..AND the Pope!) Name the atheist that couldn't use a "get out of jail free" card like that? What with them being doomed to Hell and all.. Yay Jesus! (Which is really an alias for God. See, that's why the 2nd Commandment doesn't apply to worshipping Jesus. He made the Commandments...He gets to break them. It doesn't matter..He'll forgive Himself anyway. That's the nice thing about being God..or a religious leader..or being rich enough to pay off a religious leader..) Anyway Jesus, thanks for breaking up the tedium of "right living" by letting us butcher you. You're a real sport..(for a dead, disenfranchised Jew.) Let's face it, unconditional forgiveness adds up to fun, fun fun for everyone...who believes in the Lord. See, God (or the people who speak for Him..I forget which) won't forgive people who don't believe. They're sinners...and God hates sinners. 060814 ... daf Part Two? If you insist... I've tried so hard. I mean I've tried really, really hard to understand, but it just doesn't make any sense. Why do our religious leaders (and their followers) claim to side with Truth...when the words of their own prophets(those that haven't been "lost in translation") contradict their version of Truth? When those words are studied individually, they rarely resemble the rantings of madmen. Definitely not the sorts of madmen that one would have expected to defend and spread the "crazed anal theologies from the world of the weird" that most of their modern day disciples suggest they did. This is as true of Buddha's words as it is of Jesus'. They are rational, peaceful, loving words. They are wise words and deep words with many levels to them. Words that DON'T jump to ridiculous conclusions. On the contrary, although these visonaries often described what they understood in words which may seem abstract and absurd now, perhaps it's because there was no other way to communicate it at that time, in that society...using that language. Maybe it’s because the people they were trying to communicate those concepts to, had difficulty understanding such ideas when there was nothing in their culture, technology or experience with which to compare those ideas. If those same words are reread in the context of what we've discovered since then, few of the ideas seem mad or absurd at all. But there's something even more surprising... When taken as a group..throwing out those concepts over which there is disagreement..a surpisingly coherent picture emerges. A picture formed by the individual discoveries and subsequent teachings of mystics whose life spans, cultural environments, and educational backgrounds were nothing alike. Shared are the concepts of: Reducing the ego or self. Giving. Concern for others. Reduction of the tendency to cave in to physical cravings. Focus on the positive aspects of any situation. Abandonment of pursuits which offer only material gains. Establishment of control over personal thought processes. Exploration and development of the internal, not the external. Living in the present moment. Forgiveness. Unconditional acceptance of life. Immmersion in and appreciation for the natural world. These speak of "the kingdom of heaven", "nirvana", "oneness", "bliss consciousness"... So what if, in contradiction to what each of the DIVIDED religious sects would have us believe, there IS a common Truth among religions? What if that truth is based upon the individual discoveries of great prophets and teachers? What if these great ones actually DID find out what it is that we're supposed to be doing while we're here...by tapping into the universal flow or the Tao or the Will of God, (or whatever you would call it)? What if each faced the task of communicating ideas to a people that didn't have the right words to describe those ideas? What if these Evolutionary Pioneers were explaining a complex process which triggers profound changes in the human organism? Not an aquired or even modified "morality", though. More like the effort put forth by an infant that ultimately results in its ability to crawl, then walk, then speak. A very real change. Evolution of the individual, into another, more viable state of being. What if they taught an unheard of self improvement method to average folks? What if their words spoke of both real and abstract concepts which became chained to a vocabulary inadequate to the task of describing those concepts? And what if that culture, (or those people), then "took the ball and ran with it"? What if the people themselves shaped their own ideas, from true words,into ideas that they COULD comprehend.. regardless of whether or not the conclusions they formed made any sense at all? Would it matter that their new understanding contradicted what they had always believed? What if, hearing and feeling the truth in those words, people then clung to them as eternal truths, without ever REALLY understanding the original concepts behind them? What if these words written in a language inadequate to convey their meaning, became the vessels which gave birth to our modern notions of religious truth? What if, after centuries proudly embracing these wild notions as our Truth...it's too hard to stop believing them now? Too hard to lose face? Could it be that it's too hard to admit the possibility that perhaps many things done in the name of our beliefs..were done in the name of a fairy tale concocted by people who have long since died? Concocted in an attempt to make sense of words that they didn't quite understand, but couldn't turn away from because the power of truth behind those words was too compelling not to be acted upon? What if it's too hard to accept the sensible beliefs of another when they don't match our own beliefs, (which have never made much sense), because to do so finds us accepting a badge of ignorance..or even worse, finds us accepting the role which we, weilding and shielding our ignorance, have played in the commission of countless crimes against our fellow human beings..brothers and sisters all. Most would prefer to die living lies..regardless. Many would think to themselves or chide out loud, "nobody knows until they die..so WE'LL see who’s right when the time comes." Many would firmly believe in their correctness. And they would do this not just to placate their need to be right..for some take even greater pleasure in believing that the other guy is wrong..and SOME DAY will know it. Contrary to popular belief, bloated egos aren't always full of themselves. Some egos find such profound emptiness inside that they stop looking within at all..instead becoming insatiable gluttons with an almost cannibalistic taste for the self-esteems of others. What if...instead of helping people turn toward the path of their own personal evolution...modern religions, because of a dogmatic insistence on spreading nonsensical beliefs...have actually acted as a barrier to that evolution? How many have heard the words and answered the call, only to find the explanation accompanying those words so fraught with hypocrisy, contradiction and abstract absurdities as to be distasteful? If it is objectionable to such a degree that folks feel they are imposing too heavily upon themselves.. then they will turn away. Many that move on are incredibly jaded..horribly confused..frustrated to the point of becoming irrevocably lost to true words because of an association with lies and the people who ignorantly spread them. Say the word "God" to one of these and know that God is not a choice they will be considering anytime soon. God's just a frustrated kid sitting outside a Sunday school classroom waiting for regular service to start. God burns people in eternal fire..God picks the wings off of flies. To speak the names Jesus, Moses or Mohammed to these is to order their minds and hearts snapped shut. Bible, heaven, temple, Torah, Quran, scripture, sin, Creation.."love thy neighbor".."do unto others".. "judge not"..believe. These words they may never trust again. What if it is the well-intentioned PREACHER who leads his flock astray due to a lack of understanding. Add to this an insistence on protecting his position as a respected teacher and advisor. What of the ego that grows daily as others turn to him for answers? Perhaps its reasoning goes something like this: If so many others respect his words and beliefs, looking to him for guidance.. if so many have done so for so long.. what misguided FOOL would contradict his words or beliefs? Only ignorance would refuse HIS guidance...(or so he begins to convince himself.) And isn't his reaction telling? Will he smirk? Will he shake his head? Will he offer to come to your house for some extra-congregational instruction? Somehow he must defend the stance he has taken...somehow it must be imposed upon those who haven't, or they will be disregarded. What if God(Tao, flow, the all) never made ANY of the ridiculous claims that are attributed to God? What if, as usual, the problem with religion and the reason for the bloody trail it has left through human history is caused by the same factors that are behind MOST problems that leave bloody tracks through time... Misunderstanding, miscommunication and fear of being wrong. 060814 ... IGG because god is a sinner and he can't bear to see his tainted reflections everywhere like a shattered mirror in a dark room, catching unexpected and frightening glimpses of himself. divinity = hypocrisy 060815 ... nom "god can go to hell" 060815 ... LS I can't believe I'm actually reading this. Your mortal. You can't understand the divine. Theres a line, and you can't cross it until your dead. Your angry, frustrated, hurt, or sad because of life and how you've taken it. Its much easier, I suppose, to blame someone you don't know anything about and feel you'll never actually meet. But maybe he didn't have anything to do with it. Maybe its just what happened because of people doing things. You, your freinds, your enemies, the faceless masses. Shit piles up, mistakes are made, selfishness wins part of the time and people suffer for it. THERE IS NOONE TO BLAME. THINGS JUST ARE. If you still feel the need to blame ANYONE, blame yourself. Your the only one you have direct control over, and lets face it, your no angel. Honestly, though, its better not to blame anyone. ITs really nobodies fault. We're all human and we all have our story, our "reasons". Nevermind. I don't know why I bother. 060815 ... misstree because if you don't say it, no one will have the opportunity to Hear. 060815 ... dafremen You didn't read this...did you LS? : ) Blather...nothing really changes around this place. It just seems that way some time. 060815 ... LS Yes, Daf, I know. I should have discluded what you said from my rant. I was responding to others, not you. My fault for not being more specific when I decided to go off. I had, infact read it all ahead of time, I just got wrapped up in the last few. 060815 ... nom god_hates_singers 060815 ... nom who were you responding to LS? 060815 ... Doar *doar pops his head up, in the third person mind you, and asks*, So what sin was it this time? Can I say a few beers would chill you the fuck out dude. Not to mention a blunt or two. I've got cheeto's!!!! 060815 ... LS I was really responding to the title of the blathe more than anything else...its what got me started and then I read goth gurls blathe. Yours(nom) upset me, but was n't really part of what I had to say. Just peeved me more. You are, ofcourse, more than welcome to curse to hell whomever you like, and IGG might be a holy divine prophet who actually DOES know this stuff...and hell, why not, Daf MAY be the devil just trying to trick us again. I don't know. The only opinion I have a firm hold on is my own. Yeesh. Any chance of getting the beer and cheetos overnight, Doar? 060816 ... nom i think you misunderstand me LS to me: god is everyone and everything every 'sinner' and every 'sin' every 'hell' and every 'heaven' god is love is hate is love is god red: do_you_believe_that_god if any(ofthe)one can go to hell then god can that being said, however poorly my remark was simply a joke to/with myself in response to the title i imagined it could be from a line in a play or a movie or something "...and she/he replied..." 060816 ... nom (we_are_the_universe) 060816 ... nom anyway, thanks for clarifying 060816 ... god god hates grape soda 060816 ... Doar What? Do I look like a freakin junk food and beer delivery boy to you? Huh? Do I? *mutters to himself while driving his Yugo to make the next delivery* :) 060816 ... Doar okay....i'll fed ex the cheeto's and "Big Rock Pale Ale" to you tonight....satisfied Mr Smartypants? :) 060816 ... p2 ls not to rile you up some more but how can god aka "the creator of all" not have anything to do with it? if you believe god has a plan for all of us then all that happens must be part of his plan can anything truly go against his plan? afterall he is the alleged almighty 060816 ... IGG the title of this blather inspired a random image in my head, which i promptly posted. i had no idea it was going to be taken so seriously. and im not pissed off at life and looking for someone to blame, especially 'god'. life is peachy fucking creamy at the moment lol. anyways hope that cleared something up. 060816 ... Lemon_Soda Man...this got real popular real quick... Doar: Thanks man...I needed those!) IGG: I've read to many blathers of yours too think you where that way. I was just blowing off steam. nom: see IGG above. p2: Where I stand is that I believe SOMETHING divine is out there, but I don't think it makes any sense to try to define it. My religous beliefs about God and His plan are a perspective. I don't grant myself the authority to claim them as absolute. There are too many good people believeing other things for me to carry that kind of hubris. god: I'll tell my brother and maybe he'll shape up and stop tasting like cough syrup all the time. misstree: Yeah...I know. Just get discouraged when the occasional negative emotion hits me like that. Only human. 060816 ... daf Well let's conclude my participation in this fun shall we? In this third part, let me take the time right off the bat to apologize to any of you who may have been offended or even taken aback by the tone of that first piece. Really unleashed the beast there...huh? So why the show? Not sure...it started like this... Ever been looking for one thing and found another? Well that's what happened. While looking for every use of the phrase "son of man" in the Old and New Testaments, I ran across this interesting parable: "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling in a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each acccording to his own abilities; and immediately went on his journey. Then he who had received five talents went and traded with them and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, 'Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them. His lord said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant;you were faithful over a few things I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.' He also who had received two talents came and said, 'Lord you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them. His lord said Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord. Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.' But his lord answered and said to him, ' You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have recieved back my own interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" What seemed so interesting about this parable, is that it reminded me of something that Professor Seward said in "The Zodiac and Its MYsterious" which was that astrology describes both inherent character traits (talents) and character flaws. He goes on to assert that for every flaw that we learn to overcome, a new talent will emerge from the depths of our personalities. This parable seems to speak of money, but as years of study and observation have taught me, when religious texts mention money or treasures...they AREN'T speaking of gold and currency, but of things which have positive spiritual or emotional value. Furthermore, when these same mystics speak of DIRT or the GROUND, they are speaking of this material plane..the earthen dirt objects which spring up and crumble around us and the kingdoms of men which glorify these things. The story speaks of 3 servants...all born with a certain amount of talent given by the Lord. This literally is money, but symbolically it is the inherent good qualities with which we are all born. In the story, it is noteworthy that two of the servants, although possessing different amounts of talent, are both rewarded equally for using their talents to increase their talent..ie to improve themselves. Meanwhile the one servant who was posessed of the least, chose to bury his talent in the dirt (aka the material world and its materialistic activities) and was rebuked by his Lord. The moral of the story appeared to me that day as this: Do not waste the talents with which you have been born on the pursuit of material things. Do not bury that which is the best of what you have to offer in some dark factory, or boring office, seeking out the filthy lucre that such industries seek of you. Rather, seek to improve yourself. Use your time here for those ends, and you will be amply rewarded. Evolution already knows how to bury things in the dirt. It is called evolutionary failure. What evolution seeks and has ALWAYS sought...is to rise UP from that dirt and beyond it. The animal that ignores its evolutionary advantages perishes as surely as its predecessors born without those advantages. When we expend our uniquely human gifts in the pursuit of the same goals as our animal predecessors (procreation, domination, material survival), we become that evolutionary failure. THere is a beautiful world outside the offices and the factories and the pursuits of our individual desires for wealth and control. There is a kingdom of heaven that awaits NOT the dead, but the living. This is the step that evolution/the flow/tao/the will of God awaits from us. We prove ourselves viable in this material plane...by using our innately human talents to rise ABOVE this material plane. God HATES sinners folks. And its a sin to be inside on a day like today, with all of the wonders that gave rise to our most magical mythologies awaiting our turn away from the endless, empty, dirt-gathering routines of the modern industrial complex. And its a sin to turn away from the opportunity to interface with the people that surround us, those that we've never met...and those that we still don't know. These negligences on our part are mortal sins...destined to hide our talents in the dirt and return us to the ground from whence we came. These three writings represent the incomplete acceptance of ONE such servant of his responsibility to the flow, to evolution...to the Will of God. A chronicle if you will...of an attempt to discover more talents than were originally sent this way by the universe which created me. 060817 ... LS Okay...daf, I agree with everything you said minus one statement: "God Hates Sinners." Sorry, I'm not down with that. You made a good arguement, but everyone wastes a part of themselves. The only optimal human was Jesus by my reckoning, so by your logic, God hates us all. No, I don't think so. Every person everywhere starts by doing what they need to too survive, a very material, earthly based path. Its true that everyone has the potential to grow beyond that, and that many make huge steps toward it...but so long as we have bodies its against our very nature to ignore the earthly, material things that provide us safety and survival. Maybe we're not trying hard enough, who knows. I agree we could all maximise our intellectual and spiritual potential and minimize our material reliance...but the material part is atleast a third of what makes us what we are...it can't be avoided unless we become luminous beings beyond our own bodies. Simply, so long as we're human, we're human. But thats just my perspective and maybe what I saw when I read the above was askew, but there it is. 060817 ... stork daddy god is suzie orman imo. 060818 ... sameolme This here sinner loves gods! 060818 ... Doar pops up yet again. YOU HEATHEN! 060818 ... sameolme We prefer the label, ecuwhimsicalists. 060818 ... sameolme Well, when in formal headress,we are known as Aphrodisiacapellapolkaapuculcoapocalyptic ists. 060818 ... Herbie the Houseplant "I need you, you're the only thing I have!!" Well I didn't expec anything, but it was like someone reached inside me and pulled out a bunch of junk. Before I was an antisocial type, since I lost all my friends going into high school, but after that it was like I began to open up. It wasn't instantaneous, but a process... now after that, I began to read scriptures and pray and everything, but over time i got involved with other things and forgot about what had happened. Finally one day, i was trying to explain salvation to someone, and i realized i didn't actually understand anything about it. So I started a very exhaustive, analytical study of just what do people mean by salvation?? I found that yes it is a process, but the process has a definitive beginning, like the planting and germinating of a seed... however, it is very clearly stated, "if anyone is in Christ, they are a new creature... old things have passed away, all things have become new." The point is that salvation is not a get out of jail free card. I read recently in the book of Acts where it says that God sent Jesus to bless us, specifically by "turning everyone from their own evil ways". So salvation is simply God empowering you to make the changes you need to stay out of hell. Now by hell i mean the totality of it. You can be alive and on earth and be in hell. It is a state of being. And if you die in that state, it just continues, but now in a complete, unmasked state that shows externally how things were all along. 060829 ... Herbie the Houseplant part two of Herbie's li'l speech... But in another way, salvation is actually a get out of jail free card. Because, as I wrote to an atheist friend recently, no one gets into heaven by being good. Nobody. You get in by admitting your own weakness and asking for help and mercy. Well that is a hard pill to swallow, because the obvious question is, the one that everyone always chokes on, is, "what about good people? do they go to hell just because they don't believe something?" Well here's the best I have come to understand things, by thinking and trying to stay true to what I know... there is a parable of the pharisee and the tax collector... the pharisee got up and said, "Oh god, look at how good I am. I fast and pray and give to the poor. I'm not like this sinful, horrible tax collector." But the tax collector just looked down and said, "God, have mercy on me, a despicable sinner". So it says the tax collector was forgiven, even though he was worse on the outside than the pharisee. People have said, "being sincere about seeking truth is enough." to which some reply, "no, you need to believe the truth. Sincerity is not enough." However if you really are sincere, you will surely find the truth, so both are right in a way. Well it's late and the page is getting blurry, and i'm about to start blathering randomly here so i'll sum up. If anyone ends up outside of heaven, in the end, when all's said and done at the end of time, it is because they love what is evil and hate what is good. That doesn't mean that people in heaven have never done anything wrong, it just means they don't love their sins and find joy in doing it. Some people do the wrong thing because they see no way out and are desperate, others do the wrong thing because they love to. That's the difference, and that is what will determine whether they choose to accept humility and forgiveness, or choose to be proud. (A final note: I have never, ever read anywhere in the Bible that everyone goes to heaven or hell after death, and that there is no other place for souls who have never heard of Jesus but died seeking truth. However that doesn't mean that they will escape from themselves and the state of their soul, as I said before, it just means that there are different levels of seperation from God. But everyone who examines themselves honestly will see that they need forgiveness, and if they see it they will seek it, so if people reject God's forgiveness it is because they are not honest with themselves. Well that's all, I hope that I haven't offended anyone unless they need to be offended because I stirred up their conscience.) 060829 ... Herbie the Houseplant oh i just saw that the first part of my speech was cut off and makes no sense... well like I was trying to write, I was in my room and my sister was playing "beauty and the beast" and it got to me and i got fed up with being alone and a loner psycho with no friends and bad grades, so i told god i needed him and he answered me. So now i go onto blather and try to talk to my fellow loner psychos with no friends and tell them about my friend Jesus and how cool it is to have a God who you can talk to (and actually does reply, not like talking to the air and "pretending" someone is listening) and i hope that someone listens to me because I know how it is to be miserable and alone and how much they need what i found. like Tim Allen said in Galaxy Quest, "hey, this isn't some kind of prank!!" so please listen to me because i'm not a phoney baloney asking you for money. And have a nice day!! 060829 ... somebody ahhhh! god hates everybody ok? EVERYBODY! 060830 ... ivyducktwilightseto religion_is_bullshit for the most part, anyway. a sad and really somewhat deppressing realization I've been coming to recently. 060831 ... LS Maybe for you. YOur never gonna find Truth by only believing in the Facts. 060901 ... somebody aaahhh organized religion is bullshit ok. organized! 060902 ... somebody besides, isn't truth and existentialist question? truth ain't an objective idea yo. 060902 ... national hero wow, somebody doesn't hold a candle to any of these. Maybe somebody didn't mean to, but she/he still looks like an idiot. There's a word that has not reared its head in here yet, which is long overdue. corruption. discuss? 060902 ... national hero and Herbie, you're a good person. 060902 ... ivyducktwilightseto Talking about me? Well, even if you aren't, I'm still going to say... It's not an idea that I like curling my fingers around. It's just what I know now to be right. It is probably the only thing that has ever actually made good, solid sense to me about religion and faith. So I guess this is how it feels to not believe in.... anything. 060902 ... Father Brown And fags are sinners because they urinate and smear their fag feces all over the Bible 060903 ... dafremen Isn't it easy to agree with an idea up to the point that it disagrees with our own? As soon as an idea (or ideal) begins to push its way uncomfortably into OUR beliefs and OUR philisophical comfort zones..then we agree with most of it...but.. Animals fear their own demise. We inherited this from them. Our subservience to mortality. Our almost instictive clinging to the dictates of its necessity. And I find it a distasteful part of me at best. Why is it considered NOBLE to DIE for the betterment of others, but to risk homelessness, times of need or exclusion...even death in order to seek after the betterment of the self? That is called unnecessary and insane. (It'll get you hung from a cross if you're not careful.) Is it really a third of our necessity to feed the urges of the physical body? Or does it just give us one less hassle to deal with if we say so, believe so and allow our lack of experience in the matter to convince us that it is so? Isn't it obvious that you can't REALLY change anything outside of yourself? So again...why is self-preservation of the material self so damned important...depending upon the circumstances? If this existence truly is NOT what it appears to be...then wouldn't the easiest mistake in the world to make...be to do what it APPEARS that you need to do? No...every major religion and most of the minor ones recommend that we train ourselves to put the needs of our physical and intellectual selves on the back burner..in order to reveal the true source of what we are.. What if what we refer to as sin...turns out, in the end, to be the path with greatest resistance to our common evolution? Millenia of distortion may have changed the direction of organized religions...but misguided men won't destroy the message that is there...(heard in the scientific community for decades.) Evolve or perish. 060915 ... dafremen p.s. anyone using the words "safety" or "survival" as justification for anything really sets off alarms in my head these days (my failing, not theirs.) Ranks right up there with using the words "convenience" or "security." 060915 ... nocturnal obviously, I'm not reading all of that. let's get serious, kids. but the other night there were all these sign-carrying christians with bible quotes, statements like "sinners will burn" "god hates sin" blaaaah blaaah. blech. I wanted to scream at them that to say god hates anything or anyone is ridiculous. is he or is he not supposed to be the great forgiver? remember j.c. and the feet washing bit, and that time he helped the tax collector guy? according to christian teachings, "god hates..." is a non-sensical statement. fortunately the cops came and contained them. made me think there may be a god after all. I love some good christian irony. 061003 ... Lemon_Soda For Daf: Yes it is easy to find common ground but still retain a personal view. Its perfectly acceptable to agree with some things and not others. Ideas or ideals are not concrete, disectable Facts, but symbols, visions, and dreams attained as Truthes. Adhering to(or rejecting) them has more to do with the spirit they represent, which can and often does have a different meaning to each individual. Our bodies are material, just like animals. That fear is a defense mechanism helping insure we don't just die off. Like breathing and eating, its necisary. I personally don't find it distasteful. My sense of self preservation, which is what we humans label our fear, has prevented me from doing alot of stupid, damaging things. Is it possible we have fear because we're supposed to? An unnecisary and insane pursuit of self betterment helped Christ, Buddha, and countless others who "fast" become more spiritual. Is a sense and pursuit of spirituality insane and unnecisary? Yes, it is necisary. Again, our bodies are part of who we are. Should i ignore the urge to make love to my significant other? Should I ignore the urge to drink water, or even breathe? I think many people listen to their urges to the exclusion of all else, but that doesn't mean the urges are bad. I'm sorry, but its not obvious to me at all that i can't really change anything. I changed this blathe by responding, didn't I? I changed myself by starting my pursuit of the martial arts several years ago. I changed a patch of dirt into a garden. I helped a bitter man in debt change himself into a happier, freer person. You truly belive things like this don't matter? That they don't "change" anything? Nothing is what it appears to be. But that comes from limited knowledge and understanding, not some giant cosmic lie. We use our best judgement and do what we can. I don't think its right to reject everything out of hand just because we don't understand it. Most spiritual denominations encourage us to put physical and intellectual things on the back burner because focusing on the spiritual is the purpose behind them. Is the gym where i go to answer my questions about the divine? Do I hit a physics class to work on my abbs? I do think the spiritual is the most neglected part of ourselves, but certainly not the only part. I really can't comment on sin. I'm not sure what sin is. I know what other people have told me. I know what i find morally reprehensible. But everytime some one says "this is a sin" I think to myself a situation where I would do it and not feel bad about it. So I dunno. Millenia of distortian would suggest there was something pure to begin with. People are trying to find a better way to live. A higher path. A worthy goal to pursue. A direction. A dream. Something to hold to that will comfort them when they wonder about things above and beyond their understanding. Evolution is the gradually adaptation of a being to suit its environment. It doesn't apply to us. We alter our environment to suit us. But thats just me and I am by far not the sharpest tool in the shed. 061004 ... Dafremen (You might want to read...before reacting...) Life, it seems, makes no sense. This from the misguided perspectives of many casual observers..and from the over-active imaginations of our more industrial strength thinkers. Some say life is meaningless. Others say that it is about "survival of the fittest". (The label "fittest" being applied to those who most consistently and successfully act out the part of self-serving predator. Read: "go-getter", "hustler" or even "up-and-comer") There are those who claim that we're here to work like slaves. They say that we must smile while suffering the indignities that are heaped upon us by others, so that we can die content and receive our eternal reward. Don't expect the kingdom of heaven to stop whatever important matters it attends to during those brief moments between an eternity of saint-scheduled meetings..just to relieve a little temporary human suffering. That's why the same great folks that brought you "Heaven: Mighty Carrot In the Sky" provided a daily supplement called prayer. We pray to remind us that Heaven's up there and we'd better not forget..nevermind that "Heaven the Abstract Philosophy" might've temporarily forgotten about us. But that's ok...be strong. Keep your chin up. Go to work every day like a good boy or girl so as to render unto Uncle Sam Caesar that which is his. Well, except for the 10% of your take home which, as everyone knows, belongs to some hugely famous guy named God who needs all of the cash he can get his hands on. After all, the champagne and caviar are forever in heaven..which ain't cheap. You DO want your great-grandparents to continue enjoying the "Great Orgy In The Sky" don't you? After all...they earned it. They're dead. Cash is preferred, but alternative methods of payment are also accepted. Make checks payable to..Father Michael Dunleavy or whoever happens to read your Holy book into a microphone on Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays. (Understand that because God doesn't trust bankers any more than we do, He doesn't have a bank account. Still, who doesn't hate check cashing fees? Father Dunleavy, Pastor Steve, Rabbi Goldsteinenberg and Mohammed Akbar Shegal each independently volunteered to help God out by depositing His money. Luckily for God (and us), they DO have bank accounts.) There are some souls that don't believe in God or meaning at all. Judging by the reactions of God's ambassadors here on Earth, the Almighty must be up for reelection or something. By the way, if you meet a person who refuses to vote for God, it's OK to judge them. You're also expected to hate them and do unto them whatever makes the soul-less heathen suffer. It says so in the Bible. That's how God keeps overcrowding in Hell down..by contracting out some "Judgement Day" torturing to the over-zealous and bored. (The relief provided by sneering and being self-righteous probably helps God's "chosen ones" pass the time until they die and go to Heaven. Maybe it would be fairer and more efficient if God just let them die earlier...you know...time off for good behavior. They ALSO earned it.) So yea, what ABOUT these folks that don't believe in God? Haven't they heard the Good News? Haven't they seen all of the huge buildings the Lord had built for us to thank Him in? (Interesting fact: The word God translates to "Lord of of Fancy Buildings and Infallible Preachers" from the original Hebrew.) It takes an awful lot of thanking to let God know how much we appreciate the opportunity to be bored shitless by a guy who can't wait to tell us all of the uninteresting things he learned in seminary school. (Well, they ARE trying to save us after all. God doesn't save souls...preachers, priests and rabbis do.) And then there's the chance to sing the Lord's praises. A 19th century karaoke performed by 500 or so off-key amateurs, whose monotone droning only slightly masks the sound of your own voice howling the lyrics to some song penned by a guy named Matthias or Günter which dates back to the Middle Ages. Who wouldn't be overjoyed by the experience?! But that's not all we have to thank God for... There's the thrill of being surrounded by real mahogany, gold gilt, marble and other expensive materials that you don't normally get to see while living in abject poverty. I'd say thanks are definitely in order. And then there's this: Haven't these Godless heretics heard? Jesus was butchered so that it wouldn't matter what we do. We're forgiven..no matter what. We just have to claim Jesus as Lord and confess our most sinful sins to Father Dunleavy so that he can continue to supplement his income writing letters to Penthouse Forum. (Hey...don't forget..he's DEFINITELY forgiven. Remember, he works for God, Jesus..AND the Pope!) Name the atheist that couldn't use a "get out of jail free" card like that? What with them being doomed to Hell and all.. Yay Jesus! (Which is really an alias for God. See, that's why the 2nd Commandment doesn't apply to worshipping Jesus. He made the Commandments...He gets to break them. It doesn't matter..He'll forgive Himself anyway. That's the nice thing about being God..or a religious leader..or being rich enough to pay off a religious leader..) Anyway Jesus, thanks for breaking up the tedium of "right living" by letting us butcher you. You're a real sport..(for a dead, disenfranchised Jew.) Let's face it, unconditional forgiveness adds up to fun, fun fun for everyone...who believes in the Lord. See, God (or the people who speak for Him..I forget which) won't forgive people who don't believe. They're sinners...and God hates sinners. 070129 ... daf oops. looked it up. it didn't show. Hmm sorry. 070129 ... daf A response to LS: In the end, I suppose that it would be difficult if not impossible for a half-animal half-spirit entity to deny its animal half. But we promote it. Our society wades in it and idolizes it. And there, I believe is the "sin." Yes, sin. When I say sin, understand that I could care less about the "morality" of a situation. What matters to me is momentum, and direction of travel. To sin, is to act in a manner that is contrary to the continued evolution of the individual or its member species. I believe that the words good and evil, sin and virtue evolved from a primitive notion of what we had been, and what we were becoming. To sin, was to act in a manner that was detrimental to the imporvement of the self, or to the advancement of the evolutionary process. To say that you should stop making love, is absurd. To say that you should demonstrate (at least to yourself) that you can stop making love, is not absurd at all. To say that you should never eat, is ridiculous. To say that you should go for a period without eating, in order to demonstrate your mastery over your animal urges..is not. To say that you are a bad person for wanting nice things...is an overly harsh condemnation. To say that you should practice letting go of those things, proving that you own them, they do not own you...this is wisdom. These are exercises in self improvement. Like the discipline of martial arts, which no doubt you hold in high regard, these are disciplines of the "Evolutionary Arts." Are we animal in nature? Certainly. But that is where we come from, that is what we are travelling away from. To embrace that part of us as necessary, is to embrace evolutionary stagnation. Stagnation of the evolutionary process, is the death of that process for the individuals involved. We WERE animals. Now we are part animal...and part something else. That something else is what we should be embracing, because it represents where we are headed...not where we came from. Our animal nature is slowly being left behind. Is it a part of us still? Yes. Should we promote, embrace and celebrate that part of us? I don't believe so. We should accept it, because it is, then strive to rise above it, that we and our people may continue to evolve. 070129 ... Doctor Roxso the rock and roll clown not to be glib and reductive, but i'm going to have to agree with the title of the album Slayer released on 9/11/2001: god hates us all 070129 ... They call me truth To not eat for a period of time does not prove mastery over your animal urges. To that point nothing proves anything. God cannot be proven in this world neither can you prove that you have become a master of your spirit. I am probably just saying this to provide contrast. in truth I agree with you, daf. the sticky thing is, you have not really let go until you stop trying to prove thingz. And I can demonstrate anything to anyone. Indeed that is what the Pharisees did, but wouldn't it be wonderful if i believed so ernestly in what i am that it would not be neccessary to demonstrate something to prove what i am? I wonder if we would still have motivation if we didn't have the need to prove things. What would life be like? 070129 ... They call me truth LS, you are wise and quite sharp I might add. There are many names for things and it is quite arbitrary. i could start calling myself Abatrula (aba chu la) and if I convinced everyone of this it would be so. i could also call myself truth and if i convinced everyone of this it would be so. So... Sin, evolution, God, man, spirit are all just symbolic of things. These symbols are different to different people. So couldn't I make them all the same? Could I make them all synonymous? Couldn't i call all things God? And if i did would I be wrong? I'm sure someone has a decent argument that will "prove" this false. We search for higher meanings and greater understanding and indeed i do not dispute that they do exist but we tend to knock down everything around us and we cannot truly change until we appreciate everything because if it is here it is here for a reason. Someone wanted it here. What do you want? Do you want a lie? Do you want truth? Do you want a God who hates sinners? Or a god who loves all? What if you could get what you wanted? What would you really want? 070129 ... daf On the contrary, if you said that all things were God..they couldn't disprove it. (Still..knowing it to be true..would you believe it?) 070129 ... They call me truth I would probably believe anything that causes me the question the way things are. Yeah i would believe that God IS everything. 070129 ... daf Spent a little more on this and wondered if the word hate is as uncalled for as my immediate imrpessions led me to believe they were. It is all of the human connations that go along with the word that have me (and it seems, you)dividing the word hate from the name God. If love embodies life and creation...then certainly hate embodies death..or perhaps ultimate destruction. There is no argument that God is love. This is self evident to any who have done even a cursory exploration of their spiritual side. Still, as you've suggested, God, is perhaps...all. If that is so, then what of this process called evolution, encompassing stages which, once past, are discarded for new ones? What of the destruction of those parts of the whole that do not contribute to the overall evolutionary direction of it all? Swim upstream and flow of the river is against you, sit stagnant and it will erode you down to a nub eventually. It hates you..if not emotionally, then actively. It despises you, if not in its heart than in its insistence on fighting your resistance to its direction. The obstacle...the roadblack to its continued progress...has become the enemy to its arrival at the next stage. The whole will not wait for it...or you...or me...or any of us. We evolve or we perish. To fight evolution is our sin. To meet the consequences of evolutionary failure: the hatred awaiting not just us...but any entity, or thing which stands in the path of our becoming.. Is this the absence of God? Or is this also part of God? 070129 ... god i really only hate grape soda. i'm tellin' ya. 070129 ... They call me truth Indeed this is a part of God but like what I said about words, all of them are symbolic and whateva you choose for it to symbolize it will. But have you heard that God is also what he is not? Could it be possible? What would be the significance of that? What would it mean? 070129 ... They call me truth I don't divide hate from God. i was using hate in context of the conversation. We say that God is infinite. We say that God is love. Is love then infinte? And if so when does love end and hate begin? 070129 ... National Hero God hates sin. He cries for sinners. 070413 ... Myrrdin Sin doesn't exist.. but their is karma. 070531 ... LS I don't realy hate. I get frustrated, sometimes, and angry... but never hate. 070531 ... dafremen If it is true that you_are_loved What part of you is hated then? Hate is a metaphor for direction, as is love. Good is a metaphor for that which progresses in the direction represented by love. Evil or bad are metaphors for that which progresses in the direction represented by hate. Good or love, represent evolutionary progress. Evil or hate represent evolutionary failure. It's a simple concept made complex. 081023 ... Lemon_Soda Im glad this blath came up. Thanks daf 081024 ... dafremen A decade later, you're welcome. 181214 what's it to you? who go blather from