tell me what you think about the comming war.

help me understand what americans and other people around the world truely think.

so i have something to fight against what the media is telling me you think.

i'll start, if you'd like.
not one australian i have spoken too has supported the war. when we were in new zealand we attended protest rallies and listened as the kiwi speakers shouted how, if the war did start, they would march on the american embassy, and then the australian embassy. whenever we opened our mouths, our accents gave us away and people hated us for being australian, for the media over here portrays the australians as being all for it.


please, please tell me what you think.
for i am being driven insane, drowning in apathetic silence here...
minnesota_chris Most Americans I've talked to are apprehensive about this war. Military types are excited about combat, they will lose some of that excitement when they find out it means shooting boys in the face and watching their soldier friends get killed.

Bush hasn't asked me my opinion lately. He keeps calling when I'm not home, and I just have trouble finding time to return his emails.

I'd say about 40% of Americans are generally positive about this upcoming conflict. A coworker at the chocolate shop told me "I think we should just bomb them all." A general ignorance and a feeling that all Arabs are against us, and are insane or otherwise less than human. Me and my teacher friends are generally against it.
Ugly American Tourist I can;t Speak of the statistics,
But I Don't like this.
Does one Nation have the Right to Decide the Internal politics of another Nation?
The Lines Drawn on the Maps were laid down by the British after the First World War, And the Rulers of the new Middle Eastern States were Ensconced By their British Overlords.
America Via the CIA has alos had it's Hands in the pot Helping to Overthrow Mosedeq (spell check) in Iran ,He Nationalized the Oil Industry there taking profits from the British Petrolium Companies, And providing Armaments to Saddam when the Iraninans Ousted the U.S. backed regime of the Shaw. We ( the U.S. Operatives) have a Long History Of Meddling in Global Affairs, letting them go Sour, and then having to deal with the Inrvitable Backlash. Will another War Solve anything?
This seems More like an Opportunity to Field Test the latest Generation of High Tech Weaponry. Prove it's Value so We can Boost the prices, And if the Blitzkreig Nuevo goes well we can off set the Operational Expenses by Skimming Oil Profits.
We are told that the Iraqi People Will Embrace the Troops as Liberators, Much like the French during the Second World War. Will They?
How would The U.S. React to a Global Mandate to Surrender Its Arsenal of Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Would the Inspectors Be given Unfettered access to All Sites?
It is said that area 51 will use Deadly Force on anyone Tresspssing, American Taxpayers armed with nothing but Video Equipment.
It doesn't surprise Me that North Korea is racing to Develop Nuclear Capabilities. There is no telling Where This is Going to End.
Are Americans Behind the Effort?
The Majority Don't Even Bother to Vote.
And after the Last Presidential Election, It doesn't seem like it Matters if They Do.
But I am but a White Knuckled Spectator
Caught Watching the Insane Drama Unfold
Upon the Video Screen.
silentbob Yeah, the media HAS to be pro-war, because its like...the governments media.
Not all media is pro-war, obviously, but news people would get in trouble with the government if they opposed the war.

did it not say on the news there that there were 6 million protestors in large cities across the states just all-out shit talking what is going on?

that is sad.

A lot of people don't want this war, I included.
helping see also: we_don't_want_this_war 030309
megan hello.
i'd like to humbly state my opinion, and hope that it reaches you while you are well and vibrant and joyful.
it is:
that war is not always necessarily a bad thing.
please listen...
when has any huge thing in history ever been accomplished without the shedding of some blood?
think hard, please, blather children.
we are an ugly people, a scarred race, a group that is blood thirsty and power hungry.
but there are other like this also.
there are people that fear their leader out there, we do not know how this feels (think about it, we can talk about our leader behind his back, put him down, and the law cheers us on).
if this war is going to happen,
then so be it.
history marches on, past all of us onlookers, and blood is spilled, emotions are trampled, and yet another nation has lost its innocence (yet again).
so, please...
give war a chance.
j i admire you for truly speaking your opinion 030309
DevilsLyric No war for oil.

Lets Bomb Texas!

This war is a choice. Bush makes it seem like its nessicary. Its not. We can keep saddam in check without war. Bush has alterier motivs me thinks...

In my neighborhood a lot of people are pro-war but thats only cause their all republican or super rich
birdmad So, lemme get this straight... we financed a bunch of radical militant religious fanatics in Central Asia to help fight the commnuists... meanwhile, in Iraq, for years (up til just a little while before they did that whole Kuwait_invasion_two_step) we bankrolled a socialist dictator who emulates Josef Stalin to keep the religious fanatics in check in the Persian Gulf

To make our war effort easier, we are offering money and the willingness to turn a blind eye to the likely massacre of Kurds in Northern Iraq by our NATO allies, the Turks even though we are using the massacre of Kurds by Saddam as a pretext for this course of action.

Jesus, that's a hell of a way to run a railroad.
She Have any of you stopped to think the the small country of Iran has enough nuclear weapons power to wipe the face off the earth?

Hussein has enough money and power at his fingerstips to turn his small third-world country in to a thriving economic Superpower. But what does he choose to do, pick fights against the US and The UN, build weapons of Mass Destruction, fund terrorists groups and all kinds of other bad stuff.

He has blatently defied peace for 12 YEARS, not just since 9/11.

Yes, a war will kill people, but not as many as he /lets/ die everyday!
x We have that money and power. He is not picking fights. It is our president who is picking fights. WE build weapons of mass destruction. WE fund terrorists. Seriously, do some research. 030310
p2 yes
research is good
as is backing up your previous statements
i still wait for your response
megan p2... didn't you know buying suv's funds terrorism?
p2 bin laden i love my Toyota 4Runner 030310
minnesota_chris Megan, I do see your point, that removing Saddam Hussein from power could be a good thing, resulting in peace and democracy for millions of people. It could. Something tells me it won't though.

I don't think a Bush-orchestrated war would promote democracy, as Bush isn't really for democracy. I don't think he cares about the average American, why would he care about the average Iraqi?

(and lots of good things have happened without huge bloodshed. Such as calculus. I think the number of people who have died in the pursuit of calculus has to be in the low hundreds :)
She X, I agree, we too have that money and power.

But when was the last time we invaded a country because of religion, because we wanted more money, because we wanted more power, or just because our trigger fingers were itchy? We invade to help. I did say invade because the help is sometimes unwanted.

The average Iraqi understands the concept of war, they had one twelve years ago. If they did not want to be liberated, they would not be dancing in the streets for this war.

I cant believe you told me to do research, when you tell me in the same breath that WE are picking the fights. More American people died in 9/11 than Pearl Harbor and here we sit twiddling our thumbs, while the hippies are marching in the streets with signs that say "Think about the starving kids in Iraq." (I swear, I really saw that.) Have you not seen the thousands of bunkers of supplies ready for these kids, these people who supposedly don't want and or need this war.

I may sound radical but I hope this war starts soon before Saddam blows our pansy controlled country into nuclear hell.
girl_jane It saddens me. 030310
birdmad money doesn't do you much good when the only thing you can currently use it for under the UN sanctions is black market weaponry.

You see, it's too easy for him to turn our attempt at economic pressure into his greatest bit of leverage.

You see, every time we tighten the screws on Iraq, it doesn't hurt Saddam one little bit. He does like any politician would and makes it seem like the attempt to crush him is really directed at his subjects... Kind of like that one nutcase we had for governor here in AZ back in the mid-80's, just not as funny... he insisted that efforts to remove him from office were a conspiracy against "the good people" of Arizona and anyone gullible enough to swalow it did.

UN Sanctions have dismantled Iraq's medical establishment, their agricultural establishment and most of their infrastructure. It is now easier for Iraq to get forbidden weaponry from black_market sources than it is for them to get medicines or prevent crop losses.

To claim that we have some moral imperative in removing Saddam is a crock of shit since the same people who made fortunes creating that monster stand to make more in trying to remove him. The Reagan-Bush administration supported Iraq in it's war with Iran, we turned a blind eye to their crimes against the Kurdish people during that time... it's a cheap convenient contrivance to suddenly make an issue out of crimes that we will turn a blind eye to again when our NATO allies, the Turks decide to try their hand at wiping out the Kurds and staking the Kurdistan region of northern Iraq as theirs once Saddam is out of the way.

I wonder if VP Cheney's old buddies at Haliburton will pay him a special consulting commission when they get the contract to rebuild the same oil fields they rebuilt the last time Saddam's people got fire-happy.

Before the Ayatollahs took over Iran, their leader was a military dictator who carried the title of Shah. The Shah of Iran was a human rights violator on a pretty grand scale as well and kept his people under his thumb via a secret police organization called SAVAK, not unlike the goon squads Saddam employs to enforce his will... here's the kicker:

he was in our pocket the whole time.

The people calling the shots in DC lack the moral ground to try and say that any of this has to do with freedom. weapons or no. Our country is being run by a bunch of guys who haven't known what to do with themselves since the cold-war ended and what better way to ensure ones chances for re-election by stirring up a big steaming pot of war_fever.

Here's the other kicker. Assuming we go through with this war, the administration's post-Saddam plan just looks like a means to make sure we end up with even more enemies in the region than we started with... and for what?

so that the shrub can boost his approval points in the opinion polls and get another 4 years? so that his texas oil buddies can make a little more money at everyone's expense? so that we can be more than certain that terrorists will hit targets within our borders again?

I've said it before, my reasons for opposing this war is more of a strategic one than anything else.

we liked saddam before because he kept the religious fanatics in check... a list of the anti-Hussein people we are now willing to back are the same fanatics who will turn around and attack us themselves... including an Iranian backed guy with the title of Ayatollah in front of his name

so somebody please tell me again why this war is supposedly such a good idea
bespeckled It obliterated our world.
What we knew of love, ended.
What we knew of life, stopped.
The men turned into women,
the women into monsters,
the children into animals that stalked mindlessly around.
The years launched the bombs,
respect and loyalty torn to shreds,
and stifled the real humans that were left.
The world,
once beautiful once joyful once carefree and delightful and full of celebration,
sadly forlorny desperately,
ceased to turn.

Now there's nothing left for us but ourselves,
and every once in a while,
for some fortunate people,
each other.
ecila who put bush in charge?
of america?
of the war?
of the world?
of the side of right?
of god?
and sence?
and Rightousness?
User24 minnesota_chris: you work at a chocolate shop? kick ass.

Fancy sending a few, erm, 'samples' over? ;)
minnesota_chris I worked there during the "chocolate season", Christmas thru Valentines Day. Now I'm a substitute teacher and landscaper. This summer I'll try to get a restaurant job, or work at a casino.

The truffles are $3 a piece! That's what, 5 pounds... no wait... 2 pounds a chocolate. Smaller than a golf ball. A rich man's treat. You visit, though, and I'll buy you one!
terrified She: "Have any of you stopped to think the the small country of Iran has enough nuclear weapons power to wipe the face off the earth?"

Have any of you stopped to think the the psycotic country of America has enough nuclear weapons power to wipe the face off the earth?

And we are just fucking nuts enough to do it.
User24 heh, 2 quid a chocogolf ball ain't bad.

but I'd have to get a lot to absorb the flight cost.

(we could use the blather book to send food to each other, to avoid starvation, and enjoy each other's culture)

(don't worry, I'm just being odd.)
She You all are so concerned with the money that other people will make off this war. Get off it, will you.

I go to work everyday to make a paycheck. And in doing so, I fix people's busted water systems, I sell them generators for when the power goes out and they can't charge their cell phones (gasp). Does it make me a selfish bitch to go for the money and not the people? I make $17 an hour to do it as well. I'm sure that's more than the typical person my age with no degree or formal training makes.

Do you go to your job for /free/ to help people? With only concern for what will happen to the "others"? HIGHLY unlikely.

I know damn well if I could go to Iraq to fix those oilmines and return with more money than I knew what to do with, I would fight for the chance.

Don't be a pompous ass, so would you.
She You know, it also really saddens me that some people have no faith in America anymore. If all you can do is bitch about the president, I challenge you to find anyone who can fit the role and make everyone happy.

I see vehicles with "God bless America" or "Proud to be Amrican" or "United we Stand", but they turn around and complain about the government, the president, the school systems, the taxes.

If you don't like it, shut the fuck up or get out. Saddam might be looking for some new disposable flunkies.
x I Hate You.
fuck wasting my mental energy on explaining all the holes in your logic. I just fucking hate you.
Dafremen sabbie. Forget the war. It is setting the stage for the greatest time in human society. Embrace the war. Feel for the suffering people, but realize that their sacrifices were not in vain. When the big one hits stateside, we will realize that government cannot protect us and we will start the turning away.
See also: great_earth_changes
Sonya Haven't been on blue in awhile and for many reasons.

All I can say is that not all the military types were/are "excited" about the war. We should not forget that they're sent to certain places by force and given orders. They are subject to charges of treason and are held at a standard different from civilians.

They make numerous sacrifices for us. What sacrifices? They don't see their families and loved ones for monthes and sometimes years at a time. And unfortunately many of them never return alive.

I think that people who think ALL military people are "for" or "against" anything are ignorant because the military embodies a wide variety of people from a wide variety of places and social structures. Some people join for financial help in their college education...not because they're just "so excited" to rush out and kill people.

I don't know really what is right or wrong. All I know is what I hope for. I hope for a time when one day...we no longer have conflicts among the nations of the world. I hope that one day militaries of each country unite in the same goal: to protect humankind. (Because I think there are other lifeforms out there in the universe, and maybe not all of them are friendly. There may come a time when humans need to be on the same side. I hope we see this before it's too late.)

Call it foolish idealism, but some of us are a little stubborn and refuse to lose all hope completely.
Dafremen I went to the Gulf in 1990. I don't blame the military personnel. They are just doing what they signed up for. I imagine if you asked them to put a pistol to a civilian's head and pull the trigger, 99.9% of them would tell you to take yer rank and shove it straight up yer ass. 030512
She Yeah, I wouldn't want you to waste your energy by using your real name anyway. 030512
birdmad Let me spell it out.


Here's why i didn't like the whole war thing.

The president tried to make it sound like this was a failure of diplomacy, which is totally disingenuous considering that the people in power over at Department of Defense (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle) had been pushing for it since the late 80's after Saddam decided he didn't want to let then-Secretary of State George Schulz' friends at Bechtel Corp build the Aqaba Pipeline to Jordan.

Again, Our government helped build Saddam's regime during the Reagan Era, and coincidentally, a lot of the same political players who had a hand in doing that are the same ones who have been so gung-ho to rattle sabers around the Middle East.

(And don't even get me started on vice president Cheney and the Halliburton gang, or the fact that the head of the NSA was once a board member of Chevron Corp. who did large amounts of business with Halliburton...Nor will i mention hte part about the bin Laden family and their only recently severed financial ties to a defense contractor called The Carlyle Group)

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is the perfect, prime example. He was Reagan's Special Envoy to Baghdad during the 80's and in addition to helping Saddam secure diplomatic and financial aid in their war with Iran (who we were doing back-door deals with as well.) Interestingly enough, part of what we supplied the Ba'ath party besides cah and diplomatic support was


weapons of mass destruction...

It was during the time of the negotiations to build the Aqaba pipeline that Saddam used the "weapons of mass destruction" on his own people, but neither Reagan or Rumsfeld made any issue of it besides a verbal slap on the wrist during part of the negotiations. The only reason the deal didn't go through was because our pet monster in Baghdad wanted a bigger peiece of the action than we were willing to offer him.

I think it's really bullshit of anyone who tries to equate disapproving of the politics behind the war with not being concerned with the safety of our military personnel.

I have friends i grew up with who are career military, i have relatives in the Service, and if it hadn't been for the threat of a trip to Leavenworth from all the things i didn't admit to in my security screening interviews, i would be working in Military Intelligence now. I opposed the war because if they have to die for something, i would rather it be for a better cause than enriching the same people who created the goddamn problem in the first place, because before the first Gulf War, he was just the same sort of Oil-Puppet prick that the Shah of Iran was before the radical Shi'ites overthrew him.

and She, if you've been reading at all, you should already know who the_blatherer_named_x is, it's not her attempt to hide from anyone.

Just so you know
Sonya Well birdmad, for the record I was mainly writing my (apparently "bullshit" 2 cents) in response to one of the earlier (much earlier) comments made by Minnesota Chris. Something along the lines that "military types are excited about combat"....YEAH RIGHT. Maybe some of them were/are, but I'm sick of people treating them like they're not people and they're just dying to get out there in the desert and see blood spill.

There are many who saw through the political loopholes who are IN the military, but hey...they sign up, join, and have to deal with the crap on both sides of the spectrum. They take crap from people who call them "baby killers" or what have you, and then they take crap if they don't follow orders. And this means that they have to follow orders regardless of who is in charge...if you take into account that people re-enlist or have careers in the military to support their families, you have to realize that they aren't always going to agree with the current political administration.

I'm not saying I was for the war because I, too, know people in the military who I don't want to get hurt and it has had an affect on me that I don't think will ever fade. I think that it's terrible that some of our best and brightest are led to believe that they're helping a good cause when it could really just be something revolving around materials such as money or oil.

If you're against the war, that's fine but blaming the troops is not going to make any kind of progress. (And I'm not saying anyone here in particular IS, but there are people in the world who DO.) Spitting on them when they come home is not going to make any progress's just going to give peace activists a bad reputation. I didn't vote for Bush (don't get me started on the previous pres. election) and frankly I don't plan to when he's up for reelection.

Goodnight and goodbye.
Dafremen Is it any wonder that we haven't been able to cooperate with one another? Is it any wonder that people are dying every day? We couldn't get TWO people to discuss this subject without their contempt for one another's perspectives dripping all over what they wrote. Time has come for change people...friends. It's coming with you or without you. (With me or without me.) Remember where you came from before the beginning..remember where you're going to after the end. Look around you, we're all waking up in the same amazing dream. We're all alone, some scared, some in denial, but we're all going through the same thing. The solitude you feel on a daily basis is reflected in the face of the one who stands before you. Remember that, take a chance, don't let them down. 030615
ever dumbening ever amazed of the over 1200 people asked in a recent poll by the Program on International Policy Attitudes, a full THIRD of them believed that weapons of mass destruction had been found. holy shit.

WE ARE BEING MISLEAD, CONSTANTLY. and unfortunately, large numbers of us are stupid enough to believe it.
endless desire ahh americans are sheep.
bah bah
look at the sheep!

today i wore my peace shirt ((mostly because my laundry was in the wash)) and i went to my pops for a few hours and when i got there my whole supppper conservative republican family was there.
my grandpa read the shirt and said, "peace?"
my aunt said, "fred, you let her wear this?"
my uncle just muttered, "hippie"
needless to say, if looks could kill, i would have been dead before i walked in the door.

thinks twice about what she wears now.
no reason they had a problem with you wearing a peace shirt?

endless desire yeah. . .
they are kind of extreme.
it was what they didn't say that was even freakier.
pobodys nerfect You know, that whole near disaster could've been avoided altogether if you'd only chose to wear a Spongebob Squarepants t-shirt instead. ;) 030615
trixie most of us don't like it but there's nothing we can do. personally, im NOT proud to be an american although not having a proud identity is scary. i want to move out of the country when i have the chance. i see us falling. 030616
birdmad Sonya, (i see this weeks later) you totally missed my point.

being supportive of and concerned with the welfare of our miiitary personnel overseas does not mean and should not mean we blindly support the political machnations, distortions and in some cases outright lies that sent them there

I didn't say it was bullshit to be supportive of the military, i said it was bullshit to try and equate being AGAINST THE POLITICIANS WHO STARTED THIS WHOLE FUCKING MESS with being against the military

my gripe with the war and the continuing web of lies that surrounds it and its aftermath has been not wanting to see anyone's loved one's sent into the line of fire to support a power-grab disguised as a crusade.

Where are the weapons?
we haven't found 'em yet.

Where is Saddam?
The same cooked intel that said where all the weapons are told us where to bomb saddam, just like the WMD's we're nil on tht score too

If, as Perle and Wolfowitz assserted, we'd be so welcome in that country, why are they still shooting at our people?

Why did the policy dictate that the first place to receive any protection from looting and rioting was the oil ministry and not the museums? Could it be because a bunch of politicinas had more concern with their oil profits than in protecting some of the earliest artifacts of human civilization?
Dafremen (Forgive me KX21 while I do a piss poor job of nabbing yer trademark style for a sec.)

Given that the winner of a political contest is by definition a politician, what are the odds that the next elected official won't lie and grab more power?

Given that politician A and politician B are both full of sh*t, what percentage of a given population will miss the shit for seeing stars?

Given that all people deserve better, is there a logical reason for citizens to alienate one another through miscommunication and partisan bickering?

Given that the future is a direct consequence of past events, don't any wasted moments in the present, soon to be past, translate into future moments that we've consciously chosen not to invest in? Moments that someone else now controls the outcome of?

Solve for Z and show your work.
Sonya birdmad, yes I completely missed the point.

I guess in all honesty I've become even more disillusioned with the political games of our country (the "good ol usa").

Because I know someone who was sent "there" (this person is home and safe now thankfully), my whole outlook on this war has been clouded by emotion composed mostly of worry and fear for a loved one. Actually, I also have a friend who's still in Northern Iraq and he has no clue when he's getting back.

I really don't know what else to say...except that I'm not letting go of the hope that someday it will not come down to this. Someday empathy will be global.

I have lost pretty much any and all trust or belief in politicians.
karl the weed last year we ditched class to protest the war. 030702
ever dumbening bush sounding even more like the 3rd grade intellect (sorry daxle, no offense to your kids) that he is told iraqi millitants today

"bring it on"

word up g, you so hard
a thimble in time see: Newsmen
or: newsmen
I don't remember which one it is...
Dafremen Military aid suspended to countries refusing immunity. Countries which refuse to sign an agreement which gives U.S. troops immunity from prosecution as war criminals are being denied military aid. If U.S. soldiers break into your tidy adobe hut during prayer time and gang rape your daughters in front of you, you have every right to be pissed...but I'm afraid prosecution and justice are both out of the question. The administration has decided not to make the same mistake hitler, goering, molosovic and history's other brutes did. They're covering the legal angle FIRST this time. 030702
karl the weed lol, goto google and search weapons of mass destruction. click on the first link. 030702
A Viking In Peru One major factor that a bunch of people seem to have missed here is the religious aspect.

George W. Bush is a born again Christian. He believes in the whole "end of the world/second coming of Jesus" thing.

He believes that Jesus will return when the Middle East is in flames.

I used to think this was all about money and oil... Now I realize this Bush character thinks he was put in this position by god (Not by the people who stole the election for him) in order to destroy 'evil.'

There is no such thing as evil. People are people.

I used to hate Bush... But now I have a really hard time bringing myself to hate anybody. Bush is a puppet. He was put there by the smarter people around him, because they knew they could use him. I can't hate a puppet.

Well, now all these discussions are futile, of course. The war has been fought, the thousands of innocents have been killed, along with the thousands of non-innocents. The non-innocents would be the soldiers. But doesn't the Iraqi with a gun have every right to live that an American with a gun has? And don't both of them have every right to live as somebody without a gun?

I think a large part of what's wrong with everything is that technology has evolved faster than human beings. We have guns, bombs, planes, levers, buttons... But we have no instinct for them. If there are two large metal objects moving towards each other to squish something between them, and we don't want the something to be squished, our instinct says "Pull them apart!" Not "Push the stop button!"

Wow...That got off track...

Well, I should probably read over that before I blather it... But I'm not going to. I'm sure I'll regret it later, when I read over it and say, "Wow... That made me sound stupid.."

Oh well.
rubydee 030715
oldephebe I've got to get finished reading this before I blathe, but I'll say this quickly now - initially I was torn between outrage at the atrocities of Hussein and the bulwark of a forein policy that had blithely sanctioned Hussiens depredations and consolidation - and this same foreign policy that enabled him Hussein to copulate with evil and prey upon his own people - megalomanicale excesses don't even come close to expressing what this man has done and we enabled him by the sober andreasoned calculus of cold war reasoning and extended that into a more truculant and fragile age aah! I did't want to say anything until I'd read what everyone had to say - I'll get beack to you later - I am sorrowful though about mans gyrations - there is nothing new here - we still won't learn the lessons of history - let me get back to you on this
nomme child_soldiers



hiv aids

cultural losses




how many wars there are
so many people dead or dying

how ignorant we are
how fully aware

how we could end war
embrace peace
nurture and shelter
Strideo "I went into the planning tent, which is one of those 'always serious classified areas' and such. I went in to ask about going on a particular convoy and to my surprise and amusement, they were sitting at their laptops around the planning table playing none other than CounterStrike. I didn't comment, but I thought that was one of the funniest things I've seen over here."

- A soldier somwhere in Iraq.
ever dumbening During a press conference at the Oval Office on July 14, with Kofi Annan, Bush said, "We gave him [Saddam Hussein] a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in. And, therefore, after a reasonable request, we decided to remove him from power ..."


The worse this gets the more likely I am to become a Christian [*gasp*], because only someone/something as allegedly badass as J. to the C. himself could save us from the insane bullshit that the current administration is slamming down our throats (and that a majority of us are still gobbling like so many shiney Mary Kate and Ashley bangles and baubles).

bandersnatch i love how even now that bush admits that there werent any "weapons of mass destruction" (in the round about politition way), there are people who support what he did, even though that was the whole "reason" (more like excuse) to go in there guns a-blazing. 030726
Dafremen There is joy to be found in this tragedy. One day you will know what I mean by that..if you don't already. Social evolution twists its way through time in roundabout ways.

see also: turning_away
falling_alone this war has no reason to go on..... 031102
minnesota_chris we can reconstruct the country we ruined! We are kinda obligated to do that, nei? 031102
ever dumbening haha
looking back to what i wrote a few lines up, i have to laugh. i must've been drunk with rage at our idioticians to speculate on the possibility of becoming a christian.

the whole thing really is just tragically hilarious. every day there is some new thing that 'comes out', which we really already knew, and yet the foolish masses still follow along.

smash your t.v.
burn your newspaper.
dig for your news.

scratch that. let's just continue to spend billions, yes billions, on all the wrong things. wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
cheetah Bush and Dick - were gonna get screwed. 040102
grendel feeling subversive had it been possible, i wanted to flay my television set in hopes it would, like voodoo have that effect on Emperor Bunnypants when he was being interviewed by Diane Sawyer and his response to questions involving the lack of any WMD to support his justifications, his answer kept coming back, first literally than as variants of
(Misspellings intentional)
"Whutz the diffrence ... 'Murika iz safer.

what pissed me off more was that after a promising start, Sawyer just let it slide.

minnesota_chris what will happen is, we'll leave eventually, in a matter of months or years.

since we didn't reconstruct a democracy/police force/decent courts, militias will take over. They'll consolidate their territory, then fight each other, until one militia is in charge. They will be the next Saddam Hussein.

And in 10 years, the next Iraqi dictator will be trying to get the bomb again, and we'll be debating invading all over again.
not fox news except there was no bomb to begin with and america didn't go in there to build a democracy. 071002
minnesota_chris I think he wanted the bomb, why wouldn't he? Having a bomb that could reach Israel means that he would never be invaded. That's what all strongmen want, they want to not get their ass kicked.

It's all irrelevant now, since we are unable to control Iraq. Now that it's destroyed, we have to move it in a positive direction, so that our children won't be back there, fighting and dying again.
not fox news sadam probably wanted the bomb as much as venezuela or nicaragua or brunei or kyrgyzstan or any other seeking power wants the bomb.

evidently he lacked the means to obtain it and the americans knew that.

and i am very sorry but i can't agree with you that it is irrelevant. the fact remains that you and the whole world were lied to and the wishes of the world's citizens were not respected or even paid attention to. the war is illegal and so many lives have been lost for shit. irrelevant? fucking hell no!

the us should leave iraq and let their citizens fight for what they believe is the best solution. yes there will be a huge civil war and more deaths but these will have at least some sort of sorry justification in their history books.

if the us is so eager to bring democracy to the world, they can start by sending troops to myanmar. but there's no profit there.
minnesota_chris he lacked the means to get it? Not permanently. Money will find a way.

Lied to? Probably... but everybody thought that he wanted the bomb. Like you said, they all want it.

Illegal? Yeah, probably. That's never held America back. Lives have been lost for shit, most definitely. But if we don't find a way to fix this, we will be dealing with it again in 10 years.

I'll probably be writing about it here, too.
not wolf news going back there assumes we're leaving. ha. good luck with that. 071003
mellow yellow ____

Rainbow News


ummmm... black and white because they are old i suppose, why are you just asking for colour? you have to use your imagination for SOUND, touch, smell, taste... who said illustration was just a visual thing?

illustration is fucking dead anyway, if you want to make money you have to go into branding and designing logos for banks and corporate stationary.

Fine art is the only way forward, along with interior design and costume design; for living in a film and not watching one that is. Its simple product placement, if you want to be a whore just do room service in a posh hotel.
... imbecile. 071003
USDOHCF Chris, part of your argument sounds like the rhetoric that's been floating around for the last year and a half or so as the various other excuses and justifications have fallen by the wayside.

It seems sorta sensible on the surface, but when viewed in the current context it is the fascist wet dream of perpetual war

(Oceania was always at war with Eurasia)

the new mantra seems to be "if we don't fight them over there, we'll have to fight them over here" which is the same rhetoric that was thrown around as justification for not pulling out of Vietnam sooner.

it's easy to talk of "finishing the job" but the people in charge of setting American foregn policy in the region were either so bent on other, less benign agendas or so grossly incompetent that all we can likely count on now is to be perceived as an occupier and thus have to deal with a perpetual insurgency AND a series of both sectarian and ethnic conflicts.

The administration tried as hard as it could for as long as it could to conflate Iraq with 9/11 in spite of the fact that one of the reasons why Saddam was America's dancing monkey in the 80's was because he played a useful role in supressing the kind of religious radicals that made Washington DC mildly uncomfortable 25 years ago (though not so unccmfortable as to prevent them from making side deals with Iran to fund an insurgency in Central America)

It was the current assministration which ordered weapons inspectors out of Iraq in order to proceed with Little Lord Monkeypants' vanity war; and, if i recall correctly, the same people who are conveniently blaming the CIA now are the same people who were whining in 2002 that the CIA wasn't giving them the justification they wanted to go ahead and do it anyway.

it all sort of rhymes_with_orange anymore
minnesota_chris yes, yes, it has all been handled badly.

but my point is that our future is fucked as well. No matter what we do, there is no end to this war. You'll understand in 10 years when your nephew is going back to Iraq, because of the next violent dictator.
not fox news oh common dude!
you make it sound like america would actually go in there to LIBERATE poor iraqis of the next person that tires/will oppress them in 10 years.


there's abosolutely NOTHING (or has there ever been anything) compassionate about the american government that will make bring democracy or peace to a nation since the WW II (and this too had its economic reasons-including oil).

you worry about your future man? how about educating your public so that they don't vote for idiots so damn often!

fucking leave iraq alone.

the fact is that leaving there right now would be like killing the victim without having finished sucking their blood completely. leave it for the next vampire? unthinkable.
(obviously) it is not so simple as that thanks for that rather unenlightened and myopic rant, NFN. 071004
somebody "Oh common dude" ?!?

"O! Man that is common!"
somebody not every american politician is an "idiot", and if YOU were educated, you'd know that an idiot is technically one who abstains from politics, at least in the original grecian sense 071005
. p.s. ranting at americans will accomplish...

:--P but
don't you like talking ?
somebody not as much as you like ranting. 071005
shrug oh, why did that silly boy ask me what colour taps i had ?

yeah its true my parents used to have gold ones, i'm sure, does it taste like it orta ?

It's a crash course for the ravers, it's not my fault.
x if you will it William Willsway ! 071005
birdmad M-Chris, you do realize that the last violent dictator you speak of was our monkey until he made a move that made him a political liability (Kuwait) . the next one will be too, as was Noriega, as were the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who ultimately became the Taliban and - to a degree of separation, al Qaeda.

You're relying on the logic of a zero sum game which assumes that if we kill enough scary bad (and usually brown) people that we will eventually run out of scary bad people and thus will have peace, but that is somewhat shortsighted and could be used by less ethical people to justify genocide

unless fundamental changes are made to nearly every facet of our foreign policy it will be our own hands that create each new set of enemies that the next generation will be forced to confront.

The current track we currently ride makes us seem little better than the same colonialists we shook off two centuries ago ("stand down ye bloody wogs, we're wealthier, whiter and we know what's best for ye") and in spite of what this war's apologists and enablers might suggest, chaos is a foregone conclusion stemming from the initial decision to invade followed closely on its heels by the innumerable failures of planning and policy surrounding it.

the pooch, so to speak, has been screwed and cannot be unscrewed. the question is do we keep banging away until the dog is dead or do we try to salvage some time and dignity by not making the same mistake in Iraq that the Russians made in Afghanistan, frittering away blood and treasure until we achieve some pyrrhic sham of an undefinable "victory"
birdmad the Russians of course ended up walking away without any sort of "victory" but only after they had wasted 11 years trying to conquer a place that had no wish to be conquered.

this is the lesson that this war's architects and apologists seem to be perfectly willing to ignore since it isn't their blood or their money on the line even though they stand in perfect position to profit from any and every outcome and even moreso if the conflict never ends
minnesota_chris nope, I'm not saying that we should keep fighting until we win and it all turns out alright. I am also saying we've screwed the pooch. Not just the current pooch, but the pooch of the future of generations of Iraqis and Americans.

It's just not going to turn out alright, whether we leave or if we stay.

Perhaps Marx was right, perhaps there is a natural progression of governments, but instead of leading to socialism naturally, perhaps it leads naturally to strong-man thugs who back up the interests of the wealthy.
somebody Well! That's hopeful, since the best interests of the wealthy are a level playing field for all persons regardless of demographic makeup. But do they realize this? That's the question that plagues me.... 071006
what's it to you?
who go