the_answer The Truth The Answer to the question about infinite is this: Einstein prooved to us that Newton's laws of thermonuclear dynamics are accurate. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For every occurance, in other words, there is a reason for that occurance. Ok? So what does this have to do with infinite? Simply this: If every reaction was caused by a previous action, then those systems would form trails of traceable events leading back to the Origin, right? For example, if you look at set up of dominoes, push one over, the next one falls, then that pushes over the next one, and so on. And if you saw a string of already toppled dominoes, you would be able to assertain what happened by tracing back the events of fallen dominoes to that first domino. This is the same reasoning we used to acquire the Big Bang knowledge. If you had a circular domino tract, they would not fall down forever. They would need to be resurrected before the cycle could continue. So since we live in a domino reality of action-reaction, there must be an unseen force that lays out the domino pattern, and that sets up domioes once they have fallen. And! there must be an original force to push over that first domino. Now, the universe is much more complex than any domino set up imaginable, and yet it retains it's perfect balance, glorious beauty and harmony ceaslessly! All living things can be traced to once source or cell. All stellar things can be traced to one source or point. The pattern of the universe's history, if diagrammed, would look more like a tree than a circle. A circle is infinite, while trees are unique, and structured. The order of the universe stems back to a definite beginning point, therefore our universe is not infinite, it can only be an extension of the source, which is infinite, God, perfect order, whatever you want to call it. So each component of the systems of the universe came into being as a direct reaction from a previous action. And so on and so forth back until you have a single and solitary action which started it all. That initial action must have been precisely calculated in order to bring about the exact results that it did. In otherwords, the endless beauty and complexity of the perfect balance of the universe doesn't just happen by accident, ya dig? 010411 ... mpayton "That initial action must have been precisely calculated in order to bring about the exact results that it did." -The Truth That is incorrect. 010411 ... The Truth Prove it? 010412 ... kx21 Refer to Q_As... 010412 ... kx21 How do you prove "Time really exists"? 010412 ... mpayton The Truth, I'm sorry, I didn't think I needed to prove my statements. But that I mean since you were not proving your statements, I thought this was some kind of "Make bold but unproven statements topic" Welcome to Philosophy 110, "Introduction to Logic": Fallacies of logic: Affirming the Consequent: Definition: Any argument of the following form is invalid: If A then B B Therefore, A examples: #1 (if A then B) When it rains, the grass gets wet. (B) The grass is wet. (Therefore, A) Therefore, it has rained. #2 (if A then B) A thinking and planning entity can create moving objects. (B) moving objects exist. (therefore, A) Therefore, A thinking and planning entity must exist. quod erat demonstrandum 010412 ... daylitedreamer i know the answer. the answer is love. i dont know who is asking.. that's the question 010412 ... babel fish forty_two 010413 ... The Truth Well, I wasn't really asking you to prove it, I left a subtle (?) at the end of the statement that you interpreted as a command. I was simply illustrating a point about God/Life/The Universe/Time... You can NOT definitively, categorically PROVE any of these things, nor can you definitively, categorically DISPROVE any these things. They are only the containers of our reality. 010413 ... mpayton sure you can. In the bible, god 'proves' he exists a lot. And I 'proved' your statements wrong by a very simple proof. 010413 ... kx21 All Proofs are based on unproven assumption(s). e.g. Proofs of God, Time, all physical laws and theories (e.g. e=mc**2), M_Theory, etc... All proofs / answers are questionable... Tell me The_Truth, and I can prove that how wonder you are... 010414 ... mpayton kx21, what part of my proof, of Mr. Truth's statements were incorrect, was based upon unproven assumptions? 010414 ... kx21 Each Definition is a very unique and special assumption... Which is the most powerful entity in U? God or Nothing? 010415 ... kx21 Is Logic relevant / applicable to Everything in U? 010415 ... mpayton Is God or nothing my only choice? I live in a world based upon rules. You may call these rules logic if you like. I can pretend these rules need not apply to me, but even if I do, the will still apply to the real world in which I live. So, if you wish to call these real world rules logic then yes, the are applicable to everything. 010415 ... Casey The answer to everthing in the universe and all exictense is...42 (Hitchikers Guild To The Galaxy) 010415 ... mpayton Casey, You my friend, are correct. See Also: 42. 010416 ... The Truth wow... you sound confused. Your "proofs" demonstrated absolutely nothing. Perhaps the fact that they were incomprehensible may have something to do with it. Or perhaps you are far more intelligent than I am and I simply couldn't grasp your statement's relavence. But I doubt it, since you contradicted yourself many times...My logic leads me to believe that you are confused. 010416 ... The Truth You see, you cannot make a stament like "Your statements are incorrect" and not include an accompanying explanation, if you'd like to retain any sort of respectful currency. Your Intro to Logic textbook excerpts were a nice touch, but they failed to credit this discussion with any sort of relavant substance. My only assumption was that this is a "conversation", and now I may wonder if this assumption is incorrect because I seem to be the only one participating. It is as if you did not read/understand my statements, yet you commented on them anyway. 010416 ... mpayton Mr. Truth. Do you understand this? Any argument of the following form is invalid: If A then B B Therefore, A Now, I will type slowly here. Your initial "answer" .. is .. in .. that .. form. Therefore, it is .. well, invalid. Ya dig? 010416 ... Pythagorus mpayton, I am amazed at your immense difficulty to understand The Truth. However, the juevenile tone embedded within your words will assuredly not help you out. Maybe I should explain it in simpler terms: Use that scroll bar on the right hand side of your screen (or the mouse wheel, if you have one) and move it up until the top of this page is visible. Then, begin reading, and re-reading until you realize one of two things: Either A)that you've misdiagnosed his argument, or B) you ____actually, I wont say it (but it was funny!). At no time, whatsoever does The Truth's statement follow the definition you've provided. If the Universe is based on physics, and physics are based on action-reaction LAWS ( You see, LAWS kinda cancels out the IF part, heh? get it?), and that can be compared to a succession of dominoes, That MUST mean, the universe can be compared to a succession of dominoes!! OK! So, the actual formula for this argument is (A + B) + C = D There is no "if" necessary in his (or her) statement!! I just checked again, just to make sure I don't make any mistakes and yes!! It's simple arithmetic. CAN YOU DIG IT? 010416 ... mpayton Mr. Truth's argument is really just St. Thomas Aquinas "First Mover" notion. Which is taken from Aristotle's notion of a Prime Mover. Mr. Truth, seeing how he just copied his entire work from St. Thomas Aquinas makes the same mistake that he made. He is attempting to prove the existence of a all power entity by describing that entities qualities. Which in no way demonstrates anything, and is called "Affirming the Consequent". There has been volume's of work try to support St. Thomas Aquinas and his First Mover notion and an equal if not greater volume of work proving him wrong. I do not feel like repeating all of it here. 010417 ... The Truth Actually, I don't think it's A+B+C=D, I don't think you can prove (Mathimatically, or scientifically) that these things exist: GOD LIFE UNIVERSE TIME You can only use logic to prove these. They are only containers for our reality, by that I mean our existence is contained inside of God, inside of life, inside the universe, and inside of time. There may be scholarly debates about these topics, and famous philosphers may have similar arguments as mine, but I can't comment on those because I really haven't studied them, and it would be ignorant of me to pretend that I know anything about the subject. All of my philosophy comes from within, usually through marijuana induced introspection and thoughts about God, When I would deeply, deeply think about God, about how wonderful and creative he is, These philosophies would sort of just come to me, in the form of answers, and I believe them. I no longer wish to debate them. 010417 ... sabbie its easy. weve all been taught it since before primary school. grow up. go to university. get a job. get married. have kids. live happily ever after. die. it always works on tv 010417 ... mpayton Mr. Truth, But it was just getting good. 010417 ... kx32 The_Truth:- Any logical answer will generate new logical / illogical Q_As... 010419 ... The Truth Good things are best when they are finished. 010430 ... The Truth Arguments_about_the_Answer can not be a part of the answer. They are only a part of the question 010430 ... kx21 Give me any Answer with no further Q_As. And I will tell you how wonder you are 010430 ... lost Wow, I'm stunned, two people, at blather, on the internet, on the Earth, in the Milky Way, In who knows what part of the universe, have just tried to understand several questions that cannot be answered at the present time. And here I was thinking that all the people in the world would rather talk about a reality television series then debate the mysteries of the universe and in such a polite and decent way if I might add, what with all the previous philosophical research and quotations. Shame on me. But don't stop now, I've been racking my brain to find out what the Meaning Of Life is, maybe you two may help me indirrectly. -Lost 010626 ... Sol the light on the willow on the moonless night. 010626 ... Dafremen The steam from the crock of crap from which arose said civil discussion of philisophical nonsense. 010626 ... Sol re: Truth, are you arguing that every single occurance has taken place as a direct result of a previous one, and that it is only possible for an action to happen if one has led up to it? If that is the case then the evident flaw to my eyes is that the original action must be due to a previous action, and on ad infinitum, having no start. If not then the 'laws' which you have used to justify your case are incomplete and must allow for actions (or at least one action) that has occurred singly without past to bring it to occurr, thereby indicating that a direct line of action is not present to be followed back to a starting point, as there is a possibility that along the 'line' another unaccompanied incident has occurred. explain? 010626 ... dB I am still of the opinion that you can't rationally argue the existance of god. To those who believe, he does. To those who don't believ, he doesn't. As for ALL events leading into each other... bollocks. Some do, somw don't. That is all. 010626 ... that damn bird at the top of the page: "Einstein prooved to us that Newton's laws of thermonuclear dynamics are accurate. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For every occurance, in other words, there is a reason for that occurance" Ahem. ~cough cough~(well it was either that or fall out of my chair laughing at how poorly researched that statement was) Newton had no concept of "thermonuclear dynamics", Becquerel and Curie et cie, were the first to come across the concept of radioactive emission (radiation being a key factor in the cause of any thermonuclear reaction) you've just served to further insure that i will place little faith in further efforts to prove (or proove, for that matter) that this is all the result of some celestial handiwork It goes a little something like this: NEWTON'S FIRST LAW OF MOTION: (NOTE: not the law of "thermonuclear dynamics") I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. (also known as the "Law of Inertia" which has also been familiarly expressed as "A body at rest remains at rest, a body in motion remains in motion") additionally: NEWTON'S SECOND LAW OF MOTION: (Still no nukes here) II. The relationship between an object's mass "m", its acceleration "a", and the applied force "F" is "F = ma". Acceleration and force are vectors; in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector. (and please don't try to tell me that in each or any case the de facto force can or must be either the literal or proverbial "Hand of God" - the only god i have seen interact with anything is the one we know here on blather , the one who wen't to milwaukee) and as for NEWTON'S THIRD LAW OF (not thermonuclear dynamics, but...drum roll....)MOTION well you've already spelled that one out so i'll just let that one stand besides, our previous discussion of the purpose behind existence and the whole idea of us simply being here for God's entertainment just adds to my refusal to subscribe to any of it. if i had a bunch of kids and and left them alone for a protracted period of time to their own devices, and the only advice they ever got was from some hairy guy roaming the streets claiming to know me and what i want them to do saying if they fucked up they would be barbecued as soon as i got home, i would be checked into a nice padded room with frequent visits from various members of the zine family (Stelazine, Compazine and our old friend Thorazine) anyone else may do as they choose believe it if you want. but i'm never getting back on that bandwagon again. 010626 ... the spork there is no answer and there is no truth 010626 ... Pythagorus oh, now there's intelligence for ya! 010626 ... dB Good call. I would have backed up my statement a bit, but I've on;y had 2 hours sleep in the last three days so I'm too damn screwed up in the head right now. Well, more so than usual. Which is kinda scary. 010626 ... The Truth Thanks for clearing that up, Birdy! I wasn't sure about the actual name of the law, I was more focused on the point I was making. I have never taken physics either, I just kinda picked it up by observing the world around me, and concentrating on the universe while in deep meditative prayer. Much truth is revealed this way. Just think about it though... Intensely focus on each of the integral components. For every action... There is an equal...... and opposite..... ...REACTION. This pretty much outlines the relationships that exist between all entities, systems, and dimensions. No matter what you believe, ... we are all a part of the interconnectedness that eminates throughout existense. That is the truth. 010626 ... nocturnal the answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind the answer is blowing in the wind I wrote that myself. pretty good, huh? almost good enough to go in a song. 010626 ... The Truth Jolly good, nocturnal! There is truth to that too! ... About the "bandwagon" issue... I just wanted to say that refering to Believing in God as a "bandwagonish" type of occurance is incorrect, there are far, far more people that do not believe, than believe. So the true bandwagon would be that rebellious one of non-belief. And it is only the people who jump off that bandwagon, at the risk of being made fun of and "persecuted" for their beliefs by those who still ride the bandwagon, that are called believers. 010626 ... baby satan a bandwagon is what bands would use to carry their gear back when there were no roadies. 010626 ... birdmad i've said this before: how typically condescending. so easy to say that non-belief is simply born of a rebellious nature. i believed once, but (as i've said to the point where i am sick of saying it - to the point where i have adopted this attitude) the way certain events have gone and the way certain questions only seem to provoke glib response from patronizing people i cannot reconcile the face i once had to the things i have seen and come to know is that okay with you, Truth? 010627 ... birdmad and parents who don't acknowledge their children are negligent in some capacity or other. humanity is the infant left in its car seat on a hot day, if we're lucky we may survive and if, in the deeper recesses of my being i still believe that he is there, that belief or fragment thereof is no longer rooted in love. don't assume that everyone's unbelief is simply obeisance to fashion. but we've already had the rest of this debate at " predestination " 010627 ... The Truth "huh?" I think that the delimiting medium of internet communication, leaving my tone of voice abandoned, has led you to reach the wrong conclusion, birdmad. I don't understand how you percieved condescension from my post, I was simply pointing out factual truths. And facts can stand alone without the possiblilty of misinterpretation. If you're referring to the fact that I disagreed with you, then, I'm sorry, get over it. It'll happen from time to time. I assure you, life will go on. (See...now the last part, THAT was intended to be condescending, however so slightly) 010627 ... The Truth Who's been "left in a car seat"? Not me! God is very much a part of my life, every single day. I recieve guidance and direction, things that I could not possible forsee, I've been protected from. I have many successful relationships with many close friends and family, I thank and credit God for filling my life with love and contentment. This He has promised: He will never abandon any one of us. It is we who have abandoned Him. 010627 ... birdmad i_give_up 010627 ... The Truth I would never assume people's unbelief comes from obedience to fashion, I know first hand about the spiritual, unseen forces that combat our morality every day. Most people are unaware of what they can't percieve. The trained senses of the spirit are no match for the onslaught of negative energy permiating throughout the universe. It is only direct help from God that we can escape the web of unbelief, which, I am reluctant to say it, but you are caught in it. Sticky, ain't it? 010627 ... Dafremen This...folx is known as self-preservation through denial. It's really THE most telling aspect of an individual's religious and philisophical development. As I have stated on MANY occasions, I feel that organized religion serves a purpose. That purpose is to get people's focus OFF of this world and onto another...so that they can FINALLY start enjoying life in THIS one. It's the placebo effect with a twist. Some folx need that...the whole concept of mortality would throw folx like that into a mid-life TIZZY anyhow...so rather than deal with it...they choose escapism. Does that mean there is no ENTITY that created everything? As I've said before...I can't rule out the possibility, but don't require an anthropomorphized God in order to enjoy life, the universe and my place in it. To get back on track, the most OBVIOUS sign of this denial is the..."you're the one who's living a lie" statement. Therein we find the motivator behind the belief....the TRUE motivator. The clinging to that one last possibility...anything to avoid the inevitable reabsorption into everything. Does it take courage to go against the crowd? Well I suppose...kudos to Jesus Christ then...the rest of you have your fellow believers to pat you on the back, so any courage required is negligable. Is it brave for me to try to walk through a brick wall...and tell the rest of the world how deluded they are...how FOOLED by this sticky web of illusions they are? Simply because they don't believe that trying to walk through a brick wall is a good way to spend their lives? Let's recap the REALITIES that I'm blinded to by this illusory "web": There is a heaven and it will be everlasting paradise...in other words...it will be PERFECT..every single day...for the rest of forever. (Wow...one question...how's the big guy compensating for the BOREDOM thing? And won't milk and honey start to taste like crap after say oh about 1000 years or so? Ok so there are different kinds of foods...all that the heart could desire... Still we're talking about forever...so my point stands.) This heaven is presided over by the Creator of Everything who knows everything, sees everything, can do anything and who happens to have created the ENTIRE thing...for us to live in...in SIX days. We are the ULTIMATE creation of the ULTIMATE creator. (Of course we can't really see most of the universe...let alone live in all of it. Then of course the whole who created the creator (YAAWN) argument comes up. Who created the creator's creator etc. Hey..still Our father though right? Yo...why did an omnipotent being have to rest on the 7th day? Hey...and if he's omnipotent, couldn't he have done it in ONE day? Or the blink of an eye? Who would have known the difference?) That any happiness in your life stems from this God...and the world is to blame for any misery. The rationale for this being that God is all-knowing, all seeing and loves us while the world is an imperfect place that generally doesn't give a crap. (Well you got that last part right...it's generally imperfect in a perfect way and it really HASN'T noticed you so I guess it couldn't very well give a crap. Meanwhile god provides a convenient starring role to all of daddy's good little people...in fabulous downtown...Heaven! Of course how you've managed to determine that good and bad come from two different places is STILL beyond me.) That EVERYONE else that doesn't believe what YOU do(see above) is living a lie or living in illusion...or just hasn't THOUGHT it out...or opened their heart or found god...or been saved...or taken Jesus into their heart....you accuse them of copping out because FAITH is too hard for them to handle. Cuz you're brave and they choose the EASY path. Because they don't know God like YOU know God. (Which, let's face it ISN'T them copping out...it's you. I'm not sure whether you even started to get close to The Truth and took a convenient detour away from it because the thought of TRULY being mortal and that's all doesn't jibe with your self-righteous...center of the universe perspective. Either that or you just never kept on looking and decided that the answer you've found is good enough. Maybe you were looking for a parent at a "higher level" to protect you? Being a grown up is scary..huh? Not with GOD though. Fine, I don't have a problem with that, but if that's the case then YOU'RE the one who copped out and gave up the search for Truth...NOT everyone else.) See, I don't have a problem with you believing whatever the hell you want to, but DON'T presume to chide people and look down in pity at "God's lost children", unless you're prepared for a reality check care of yours truly. The truth of the matter is, you've found the equivilance of ignorance that is bliss. Enjoy it. Bliss is good, mortality can be a scary thing. In your case, religion can be a good thing. For YOU. Personally, I'm not afraid of death, to me it's a reunion with that from whence I came. I imagine you're not afraid to die either, of course you require the promise of a life AFTER this life to calm your fears. That is a common thread that almost ALL organized religions share...because it plays upon a fear that almost EVERY human lives with. Fear of facing our own mortality. Once again, if you can't get over that fear, don't attempt to make the rest of the world wrong because you wanna cover your eyes and believe that the "monster"(death) is going to go away if you believe hard enough in an alternative Disney ending. 010628 ... lost Go Go Go Dafreman. I myself can't judge religion until I read the bible, As of yet I can only witness what is happening from a direct result of it and make a decision based on that. I hope no one else goes ballistic against christianity or any other religion until you've read their manifesto. ( Reading it for yourself gives you more leverage in a argument. ) - Lost 010628 ... Dafremen The bible has a lot of good stuff in it. It's an excellent reference that I would recommend EVERYONE keep several copies(different versions) of. Let's say for a second that there's not a word of truth to what's in the bible. It's still a pretty damned good piece of fiction if it isn't true.(Which I don't believe. It's been tainted by religious doctrine and church policy, but much of the history is proving to be accurate and so it shouldn't be disregarded as JUST a source of religious rhetoric.) Many of the philosophies and stories are rich with good advice and clever helpful morals that I have found are usually honest and simple. I recommend most of the religious texts for all of the reasons listed above. I would also never recommend that ANYONE who is searching for truth, be it religious or philisophical or historical completely disregard ANY text simply because of preconceived notions. I think we all find a place where we can live life without focusing on the inevitable and without letting the fact that we will eventually die take away our hope for the future and our love of life. When we get to that place...far be it from ANYONE to tell us that where we are is the wrong place to be. Buddhist, Moslem, Christian, Jew, Toaist, Trappist, Crappist I don't care what you are...if THAT's where you've found enough contentment, security and peace of mind to be truly happy in life, then your religion is right for you. F*ck em' if they say it isn't. 010629 ... The Truth HOORAY! It was a very gratifying experience for me to read those above posts, dafremen and Lost. It gives me new hope for humanity, and a refreshed sense of inspiration. But going back to the ETERNALPERFECTION topic. Could boredom exist in a realm of eternal perfection (heaven)? I mean, sadness, pain, and death won't exist, right? So how could boredom exist? 010701 ... nocturnal alright, I'm so not getting involved in this, but this has to be said. daffy said whatever makes you happy is the right religion for you. what I don't understand is how that can be enough. I mean, does the real truth not matter? everybody can't be right because every religion is so different. for me, at least, I want to know what IS. not what makes me happy. I don't understand how it can be irrelevant to know the real truth as long as what you believe makes you happy. even suspecting that what I believe is a lie would make me unhappy. hence how I became an atheist. that's all. 010701 ... Dafremen Noc, I wrote a poem which I'm tired of quoting...but the gyst of the poem was this. The TRUTH about happiness exists in the HERE and the NOW in what's aroudn you. It lies in appreciating what a truly wonderful thing it is to be alive for the brief instant that is the human lifespan. Think of the entirety of human society as a glass of champagne and each bubble that breaks on the surface as a life lived. The bubbles seem so common if you choose to look at life and the universe around you from outside the realm of what you are...one of those bubbles. We must realize that as common as bubblehood may be...for each bubble it is one of a kind and more precious than anything that will be encountered in all of our days here. IF we can just be content...no matter WHAT we must believe to BE content with our fate and our place here..THEN we have each found the same truth...the truth of happiness and contentment without fear of mortality. What comes after death is really not the point of any theology or philosophy...instead the point is to remove death as an ever present dread hovering over each of our heads. However each person reaches that state in their life...once they have found that truth....then they are free to enjoy the paradise that is living. 010701 ... baby satan sex is good. the end. 010701 ... nocturnal that doesn't help me at all. I'm not talking about the answer to being happy or content or whatever. I'm talking about the real answer. even if it does just the opposite and pisses everybody off. what is the truth? and before anybody makes any smart ass remarks I'm not talking about the blather truth guy. I mean seriously, it's foolish to believe something because it makes you happy. we should believe only what we can sensibly justify as being real and true. 010701 ... Dafremen Heheh no what's FOOLISH is to spend the rest of your life looking for more truth than that. Truth about what? According to who? As it concerns what? The questions are as endless as the answers...it's one of the beauties of being in this existence. For those of you who enjoy chasing after questions which create more questions...the universe has got your entertainment covered. Eternally or until the end of time...whichever is longer. You chase after those answers...and perhaps you'll enjoy yerself so much you won't see the end coming and realize that all of the answers didn't give you a bit of satisfaction after all but it was the chasing AFTER them that made it al worthwhile because it took your mind off of the same thing that religion does for others. No all of the answers can't give you the satisfaction and "answer" we're looking for. Not half as much as a tall glass of lemonade on clear fluffy-cloud day with leaf smoke blowing in from a neighbor's yard and the sound of cicadas lulling the world down for an afternoon nap. Mmmmmm...that's all the answers I need anymore. 010701 ... nocturnal alrighty then. I guess ignorance really IS bliss. 010701 ... Dafremen Bingo. Well it doesn't HAVE to be...for instance I know where I'm headed...and I'm not really afraid of that. But yea...for the most part yea...ignorance...blisssssss... 010702 ... The Truth I would have to disagree with you on a few points, daf. Seeking the truth, the real truth, even if it DOES take a person their entire life to find it, is WIDOM, not foolishness. Every step you take toward finding that truth is a step in the right direction. And even ONE step in that direction is will result in a much more fulfilling existence. If you find something which is NOT the truth in your journey, which will often be the case, you still benefit by strenghtening your own tolerance to the LIE. And Nocturnal, You can't separate the truth from contentment and happiness, they are reciprocating byproducts of one another. The way the human mind is set up, if you know that what you are believing in, and doing, is good, just, and righteous, the fundamental dynamics of our pychology FORCE us to feel fulfilled, complete, truly happy. Try to explain this human trait as coming from an evolved, survival based NEED and you will discover something which I could never find. But try to explain it with wisdom from the ancients, and find the answer has been known to us from the beginning. And that is why I believe morality issues belong in the spiritual category. QUESTION: Where can you find the truth? ANSWER: If you look for it, you will find it. Like Dafremen said, the truth IS all around us, but it wont find you. You must desire to attain IT. 010702 ... Dafremen Ok...now my turn. The fundamental psychology you speak of is of the "seek pleasure", "avoid pain" ilk. It is found throughout nature and the sole characteristic that differentiates it from the same behavior in nature is the presence of conscience. Conscience creates pleasure or discomfort based on taught societal behaviors. Therefore the MAIN difference is that some of our motivators and deterrants are ethical rather than physical(as well as ethics backed by physical deterrants/motivators). These ethics are almost 100% taught and could easily be surplanted with a replacement set, creating a different set of ethics and thus a different set of behaviors which would then be pleasurable or painful(motivators or deterrants)as the conscience dictated based upon these new ethics. There is nothing divine about our behavior...it's simple animal reaction BUT to perceived or manufactured pleasures and pains rather than natural ones. End of story. As for searching in vain for answers being "WISDOM". Tell you what: You go spend the rest of your life looking for these as-yet-undefined-answers to as-yet-undetermined-questions...I'm gunna go have a beer. 010702 ... Karp You can search in vain all you want, dafremen, unfortunately that's not quite what they were discussing here. You act as if it is pointless to look for answers because it only generates more questions. That same type of mentality would reason that it is pointless to wipe your ass after you shit cuz you'll just have to shit again later anyway. Don't worry, I doubt anyone will mistake your insolence as intellible. You ARE the weakest link...GOODBYE! 010702 ... anon "...it should be mentioned that same gender marriage is not simply about fucking, but is about the recognition and associated responsibilities, benefits and rewards for maintaining or attempting to achieve a loyal, mutually respectful commitment to a partner and ideally to love, honor and cherish till death or divorce do them part. The fucking part is coincidental." 010702 ... the spork "You act as if it is pointless to look for answers because it only generates more questions. That same type of mentality would reason that it is pointless to wipe your ass after you shit cuz you'll just have to shit again later anyway. Don't worry, I doubt anyone will mistake your insolence as intellible." hmmm "intellible" checked my dictionaries got the big 404 thereabouts. NOT FOUND. (surprise surprise) defending daffy, which is something i'm not generally prone to doing, your comparison of his idea about searching for answers to the concept of whether or not to wipe one's ass is plagued by the cracked logic typical to fundamentalist arguments. We wipe our asses for the following reasons: A) We don's want to stain our drawers b) No body wants to walk around with a stinky ass c) If we didn't wipe, the fecal build up and the resultant bacterial culture would lead to a massive inflamation of the perineal region as well as the anal orifice Simply put, we wipe to clear things away. to reduce build-up. Daffy's theory is very anti-"build-up" if you ask me. And my apologies to Daffy if i weakened any other portions of his argument with my analogy (no pun intended) 010702 ... The Truth sigh. (a long, sorrowful one filled with disappointment, the kind of disappointment that arrises when a once glorious state of glee is ruined by an interesting discussion shifting it's focus onto fecal matters.) 010703 ... the spork yeah, that switch from figurative to literal can be a nasty bit of cognitive decompression, no? 010703 ... Dafremen Thanks for the extension of Karp's (what the opposite of point?) thingy that he said up there. You in fact hit the nail on the head. We wipe our asses to avoid the painful consequences of NOT doing so. The analogy is flawed in other ways as well. If shit is lack of knowledge then according to Karp's logic we have the as-yet-undefined answers to as-yet-undetermined questions once already. In other words he is assuming that wiping one's ass is searching for the truth and that having a clean ass is our natural, desired state. It's funny Karp...you've actually given ME a decent analogy. See our NATURAL state is dirty-assed. YOU and those LIKE YOU say..."No we must clean our asses with this toilet paper each and every time we get dirty-assed."..well let's imagine that a newborn ingorant baby is "dirtyassed"(lacking the "answers") and spends his entire life wiping his ass...trying to get it clean(?) Since the "ANSWERS" (Whatever that means) aren't to be found...by YOUR logic we should spend our entire lives wiping our asses instead of enjoying whatever ELSE there might be to enjoy. As I said before...if you want to spend the rest of your life trying to wipe away the empty spots in your knowledge...that's YOUR business. I've got better things to do anymore. Besides...didn't you know? Once you stop scrubbing yer own ass and start enjoying life...the sh*t starts coming off on its own. 010703 ... The Truth hmmm... actually the analogy isn't too far off. I know some people are easily distracted by words associated with feces, but if you look past all that, you can see his point. Not searching for answers because it only generates more questions is like not eating any food because you'll just have to crap it out later. But a better analogy would be: Not searching for the Truth in life only because it will lead to more questions is like not planting your seeds in spring only because you'll create more work for yourself come harvest time. (Sigh of relief) 010703 ... Dafremen Well that's foolishness plain and simple by-gum. You plant in the Spring looking forward to the harvest to survive the Winter. Your survival is NOT dependent upon your knowing the answers to the deep deep mysteries whose answers will open the door to newer and more amazing theories and questions and experiments and debates and it's all very entertaining but the end benefit in the long run? Depends upon the individual I suppose. If the search for the answers was an enjoyable thing for you and you were able to blissfully while away your days searching for the "answer" then as I stated previously...the search is akin to religion in that it provides relief from fear of mortality or at the very least a diversion, a focus...a goal to strive toward and focus on rather than fixating on mortality. I think it fits the bill perfectly the way I said it. You find happiness and contentment your way...I'll find it my way. Which...by the way involves that beer I keep talking about. Hold on while I go get that...or hell...you got some answers to find...you better get going if you want to find them...well some of them anyhow..enjoy. Ok Konig Pilsener or Negra Modelo? Choices choices. 010703 ... The Truth Close, however... The Answers of Truth don't necessarily have to be "deep, deep mysteries" revealed. No, actually the opposite is true. Most of life's truths are incredibly simple. Even the deep deep mysteries are simple to the one who understands them. I wont delve too much into that, as it pertains to understanding perspectives, which is an entirely different topic altogether. And our survival is in fact totally dependant upon truth. Maybe not our temporary, physical survival so much. But our eternal, supernatural_selection process is based upon our moral decisions, which are widely influenced by truth. 010703 ... kingsuperspecial First, I'd like to point out that I love this statement: "I know first hand about the spiritual, unseen forces that combat our morality every day. Most people are unaware of what they can't percieve. The trained senses of the spirit are no match for the onslaught of negative energy permiating throughout the universe. It is only direct help from God that we can escape the web of unbelief, which, I am reluctant to say it, but you are caught in it. " That is hysterical. It’s unintelligible, un-scientific, barely literate babble. Unfortunately, it lends little credibility to "the Truth" as someone who is qualified to be discussing "the_answer". Not to single 'the Truth' out as the only person pumping twinkiefluff and halfbaked babble into a blather on 'the_answer'. There is a fair crop of don't you all see the delicious irony of this? you are all laborously proving a higher, more beautiful definition of "the_answer". you are extoling your opinion, and drawing some fantastic circles in the sand, and generally illustrating that are about as likely to find the_answer as your to find a 'the_winner' in a shit-flinging contest. It's all about perception, kiddies. Sticky, ain't it? Nothing like a knee deep river of pseudo -intellectual philosophical jabber! count me in! ::: jumps in and mucks about a bit :::: hey, this stuff smells pretty bad! it reminds me of the morning after a big burrito with jalapenos! I can't believe you've been flinging this at each other. I'm outta here! ::::: jumps back out and tries to wipe some of the the_answer off his boots ::::: it's very presumptuous to have this chat under "the_answer", because that is implying that there is an absolute truth behind what is being said. You’re all just mulling over opinions of what makes the universe and everything in it happen, with various detour threads off of this concept. What makes you think you know what "the_question" is, anyway? To anyone who seeks "the_answer", (I mean really, no REALLY!); Sadly, i think it's pretty clear that the monkeys with car keys, armchair philosophizers, and jabbering stoners are far from being able to "prove" much of anything, especially if the other eggheads and zealots don't want to hear it. Now, getting these kids to finally arrive at 'the_answer', well, you know how those monkeys settle things. if it's really bothering you, try to just decide "what is the_answer for ME" (no, not kingsuperspecial the dummy – I mean you, the gentle reader). After all, you don't have to be anyone except yourselves, and if you feel you've found what you believe is "the_answer", you won't have to worry about it anymore... ... until you start thinking about it again. (which brings you right back to the irony I was talking about before: the 'answer' to the_answer is that there is no answer! mmmmmmm....delicious) here is one way to find "what is the answer" for yourself: open your mind and your heart, do some research, talk to people you respect, and decide for yourself which THEORY you find most plausible or pleasing. oh yeah, and don't take any crap from anyone, especially if they’re just spouting half baked pseudo-philosophy or dogmatic spiritual hoo-haa. ... As for me, I'm going swimming_nekkid. 010705 ... mortal enema shit_happens shitty_words_for_shitty_people Why_i_like_to_shit 010705 ... Dafremen Heheh sounds like I'm the only one who came out without a scratch from that blather HOWITZER of yours KingSS. You of course were reiterating my statement about "as-yet-undefined answers to as-yet-undetermined questions" I agree one-hundred percent. You also reiterated my believe that "truth" can be found in many different ways by different folx, but that THE ANSWER is elusive and shall remain so(as it should be). I agree 100%. I have NOTHING to add to your statements...nor do I feel that there is anything that I care to refute particularly since your statements agree with mine in almost every way.(Except that you of course were much more entertaining than I could ever be.) Care to join me in a beer while the rest of these folx ooze on about "The Answer"? 010705 ... The Truth uh... actually, "the_answer" evolved from a previous bather from "infinite". (psst..it even says that on the very top of the page.) Now don't feel too sheepish, just go wash yourself and we'll forget all about that smelly pit you just jumped in. And...as much as it is amusing for me to listen to people try to blather on about how "unscientific" a concept is without offering any logical disproof or rebuttal, aside from equivelants of "i don't like it", it really doesn't qualify as an acceptable argument. It only constitutes as bitching and seeks to stagnate the energies of invigoratingly debating intellectual endeavors. (translation for the cerebrally taxed: Your opinion is dandy and all, but this is a discussion of and the presentation of new ideas and theories pertaining to advanced universal existential concepts. Please bring yours next time, along with your opinions, too. Don't make them put up "no bitching" signs.) 010707 ... kingsuperspecial Oh, all I need to bring is my own theory about ‘advanced universal existential concepts’? How about this? Every action in the universe is a reaction to an itch in my pants. Now, I declare this idea to be “scientific” , because I say so. It will stand as thus until someone bothers to proves me wrong. Then, I’ll sidestep the discussion with some smoke and mirrors about spirit, righteousness, and some other subjective hooey. If "The trained senses of the spirit are no match for the onslaught of negative energy permeating throughout the universe" passes as an acceptable statement, I find a plea for "scientific" contributions a bit laughable. Here's my contribution: Futile attempts to lay a veneer of logic onto a speculative rambling about why things happen makes my ass hurt. Now, if you call my opinion about the validity of the content of this blath “bitching”, I can attempt to participate on a more substantive level. This whole bit of nonsense in some way points back to the statement: "If every reaction was caused by a previous action, then those systems would form trails of traceable events leading back to the Origin, right? " Not necessarily. Remember the chicken and the egg? What about the idea that one thing leads to another, but, unlike dominos, each event supplies the means to start the cycle over. The assumption that "events" are like dominos is just that - an assumption. Granted, the analogy is cute, but it's simply one interpretation of the idea. Now, I really don't have any deep interest in finding out whose theory on all this is right or wrong. I just got a bit of a wild hair because this blath is called "the_answer", when it would be more aptly named "an_answer". Apart from that, I don't have much to say about it. (a) mrbuttinski I'll be taking that beer now, thanks... 010708 ... Dafremen I thought you might come to your senses eventually. I've just taken to watching him walk around waving his arms all over the place as he preaches about the answer. If you shut out the words it looks just a scene from that one show with all of the people that did that one thing in that one city. YOU KNOW...that show...YEA! Ok I have Negra Modelo and a bottle of Chimay Ale that I've saved for a special occasion...which this certainly doesn't qualify as...Negra Modelo then? Modelo it is. TSHICK (Hands the icy, dark Mexican beer to KSS) Salud! Yea do0d...watch when he does that one thing where he touches the tips of his fingers together like he's squeezing the world or something... heheh...f*cking hilarious... lime do0d? 010708 ... johnny west There is no fucking answer. 010708 ... The Truth blather_pollution 010717 ... chocolate bootay this recent humor aside.. why do you all use your minds to understand the infinite when youre finite? or do you reject that title? the BIBLE-how it stands! explain the Bible, oh friends of mine! explain the science, the history, the archeaology, the prophecy. you guys are fools-like me. but behold! The answer.. a book. 010824 ... marjorie took a beating and now it's the question again 010825 ... The Truth Well, we covered the science, the archaeology, the history, (and theology, biology, geneology, geography, artistry, astronomy and mystery) ... But you're right! We haven't discussed the prophecies yet. Ahem... Prophecies are like psychic fortellings of the future, EXCEPT ... they're accurate. 010825 ... chocolate bootay and youd be amazed at the number of real-life prophecies within the book. you would also be amazed-all the more-if you knew the probability of even one prophecy coming to be. I would expect God to be prophetic. www.christiananswers.net 010825 ... Dafremen In the end "the answer" really amounts to nothing more than a trophy: An indication to anyone that cares to notice, that we were just foolish enough to ask the question. 010825 ... yummychuckle you need the question before you gett he answer 010826 ... chicken flavor to_get_to_the_other_side 010827 ... Dafremen The point, dear sticky-pants..is that we don't really need the answer. We've just been conditioned to believe that we do. 010828 ... Pythagorus If the question is "HOW?" The Answer is "Love." 010907 ... kx21 An opportunity for more Q_As... 010907 ... dB Just read this whole blathe, start to finish. No drugs, no alcohol, no cigarettes, no coffe, no stress, well rested... pretty much the most straight I've been in years. This has got to be one of the best debates I've ever seen. Some mindless shit-slinging going on towards the end, but then again all uncontrolled debates do that. I'm printing this thing out to reffer to it later. 010919 ... Dafremen Yes it was db. I'd forgotten I had actually gotten some of those thoughts into words. Silly mind...always telling folx stuff, and me, always the last to know. 010919 ... just your average blatherskite I just made my way all the way through this blathe. I have to ask myself: Why? Was I seeking truth? No. Was I interested in the origin of the universe? No. Did I find truth? Here and there some truthful statements were made, but if Truth has some other meaning, I missed it. It did seem to become something other than its definition, almost taking on a life of its own there for a bit. Did I learn anything new? No. Did I enjoy reading it? Not bad ... not bad, really. I liked the way logic was weaved in and out of arguments. Also, I enjoyed trying to keep track of the places where arguments went off on tangents. This is a challenge, I find exhilirating. Politicians have been fine-tuning this skill for centuries. It takes a clever man to present an argument that appears to follow pure logic, yet strays nevertheless. The old smoke screen! It is sad, however, that some of the smoke screens I found in this blathe appeared to confuse the very persons who raised them! They seem to have bought into someone else's bad logic so utterly, that they feel confident enough to carry the torch. Although sad, it still offered some entertainment for me. I got that little rush each time I saw the flaw in their logic. Eureka! :) 011214 ... birdmad (that damn bird) THE_TRUTH: (in response to my previous rant) "So the true bandwagon would be that rebellious one of non-belief. And it is only the people who jump off that bandwagon, at the risk of being made fun of and "persecuted" for their beliefs by those who still ride the bandwagon, that are called believers." (followed by the inverse statement) ... THE_TRUTH: (following my rant about how condescending he was) "I would never assume people's unbelief comes from obedience to fashion..." as noted i gave up prompting me to say "i_give_up" since i was tired of his circular argument, but seeing this here again made me look at it again and now i have this question in lieu of his responses: SO WHICH IS IT BUDDY? 011214 ... kerry "is NO!" (says my mother) 020101 ... paradox If I was to TEACH you that "the_answer" was in working it out for yourself, does that make me a priest, teacher, prophet or a villain. 020927 ... User24 yes, this is one answer no, this may not be your answer yes, the answer will change in 16.3 seconds time People tend to seek answers, and as has been pointed out many times above, this inevitably leads to further questions, stone age man once saw flint and wondered what it was useful for, millenia on and we're still wondering what fission and plasma can do; each answer leads to a question. Therefore I don't seek answers, I seek questions, for I know that I can never attain the_answer, but I can always ask the_question. The answer cannot be found using the means of intellect, logic, science, belief or religion. My answer is quite simple, I don't know what the words are, but I know that it ends in '?'. . 030428 ... rubydee bingo 030428 ... joda The answer is, Please? 030428 ... ferret thank you all very much for debating. i love a good debate. you all make my head spin (which i am very thankful for) and to truth and kx, you both give me new worlds to think about every day. but about the debate. i was just thinking: if nothing can be proved/disproved, then how do you know that you are real? that anything is real? have you ever had a dream that lasted long enough and where you were lucid enough to actually question why something in the dream would happen? i almost did, and right before i woke up i remember having this AMAZING feeling like EVERYTHING suddenly made sense. like an epiphemy X 10 (however you spell it.) so yeah, i think that we're all asleep. whoo! the matrix! ahh!!! the sentinels are coming for me!!!!! ahhhh!!!!!!!! 030517 ... ferret hahaha, wow, jeez, haven't been here in a while. just something to say about mpayton (or whatever his name was) his little a,b thingy was flawed anyway! that didn't disprove anything, it just showed that there could be another possibility, that and it was wack. lol 030714 ... no reason ...yak? 030714 ... Dafremen Hey ferret..about whether or not we exist: see also: claptrap 030714 ... that old pirate discovered that lime juice prevented his men from getting scurvy because of the vitamin C 050828 ... see: why_are_brits_called_limeys 050828 ... Piso Mojado i can't find it at 1:36am on the internet no no 060115 ... webby i cant pretend i read everything, my attention span gave out so i'm joining in at some point in the middle you cannot explain away the inticicies of the universe as a complex domino set why would the universe need to be reset or, indeed, triggered in the first place? consider, for a moment, the universe in 4 dimensions rather than 3. now 'the beginning' is far less relavent. think of the universe as a shape. a 4 dimensional shape which, while it may or may not change ('fate' may or may not be a factor here), has no beginning or end. for the sake of argument assume that you are a god. if you can see this 4 dimensional universe all at once, then, in YOUR sense of 'time' (another dimension outside of the 4), the universe has always and will always exist entirely as it is at that moment (with all of 'time' existing). it is only our minds that use this 4th dimension in such a way. it is only to a mind that the question "Why can I not remember the future, and why can I not affect the past" makes sense. 060728 ... webby and i must add, i'm no physisist. merely typing as i think 060728 what's it to you? who go blather from