Dafremen I do not normally have religious dreams.
Astrology, yes. Programming, yes. Religion no.
I have had moments of stunning clarity which I would call religious
(pantheist rapture is the term I use to describe them), but for some reason, when I am asleep, religion doesn't come up.

There are two exceptions to this:

First there was The_man_with_two_eyes and now another dream with Christian religious figures and cryptic symbology.

In this dream, I am walking with John(the beloved and faithful historian
of the Christian Gospels) who is showing me the way to something. As we
approach a clearing, I see, coming out of the ocean at least 300 feet,
a HUGE gargoyle or something with all of these eyes and horns and a huge
proboscis stabbed into the water that appeared to be sucking something up
to a fire just below the monster's eyes where whatever it was would explode
shooting what I'll call a "moustache of flame" out each side of the creature's
nose, quickly followed by a dark cloud of smoke accompanied with a short of
"chuff"ing sound.

I immediately recognized this thing as the beast written of in the book of
Revelations and stated under my breath, "The beast. It was a real monster."
(That was a second or two after my jaw first dropped open I'm pretty sure. It
was absolutely the most phenomenally amazingly frightening sight you could
imagine. Up close and personal it sure scared the whizz out of me.

Then John said, "You see it then, good. Now look closer and see it
as it appears to those whose eyes remain shut."

So I took a closer look and saw that it wasn't a monster at all but a giant machine with a huge tube coming from its underside that disappears into the sea.
There was a lot of smoke and noise and a really unpleasant odor. The water was
dark with thick blobs of black oil floating to and on its surface, forming an iridescent ring around the large tube thing.

"The beast is OIL?" I asked. "Look closer", John instructed, "You're almost there."
As he spoke, I thought I caught a faint hint of a smile play across his otherwise grim and determined expression. You could see that he was relieved about something.

"Do you see it there?", he asked.

I didn't see anything. Just a big oil rig type drilling/burning machine and a bunch of people hurrying here and there, barely visible except for their bright yellow hard hats.

"I can't see it. What Am I looking for?"
"The hands", came his answer,"look at the hands."

I looked more closely. There was a group of workers toward the bottom of the rig doing some sort of repairs or something on the right front leg.

I looked even closer. (I'm not sure how exactly, it was sort of an insta-zoom thing.) I saw that their hands had numbers on them. More specifically, the finger part of their hands.

Each worker had the digits 0 through 9 tattoed on their fingers between the first two knuckles.

"There!", John hiss-whispered as he pointed to one of the workers. That's when I saw it.

I'm not sure why the image was burned so clearly in my mind, it wasn't much, just the way the worker had put his hands together to push a beam in place:

His right hand was placed over his left with the fingers woven so that the thumb and pinkey of the right hand clasped the left palm on opposite sides, with the pinky down in the crook
formed by the thumb of his left hand. All of the fingers of that hand (the left) were extended so that the tattooed digits(no pun intended) on his fingers appeared to fall into four rows or groups.

The top row consisted of the pinky through index fingers of his left hand. These were numbered 0 - 3.

Then came the second row,which was slightly lower and contained the index through ring finger of the right hand, numbered 4 through 6.

The third row consisted of the pinky of the right hand which was covered at the second knuckle by the thumb of the left hand. These two were numbered 7 and 8 respectively.

Finally, the thumb of the right hand made up the bottom row. It's number was 9.

"Do you see it?" repeated John.

I didn't know what it meant, but I had seen SOMETHING. I turned to explain this to John, but he wasn't there. Instead there was a guy who looked to be a rig worker. He had his arms extended toward me, holding a yellow hard hat.

"C'mon man! Let's get back to work. We've gotta get it all out before they find out what it is and stop burning it."

I woke up screaming and pushing at the air in front of me.

As soon as I found a pen, I wrote the numbers down as a memory cue to help me remember the way that the worker's hands had been clasped. This is what I wrote(minus the underscores):


When I woke up later this morning I looked at what I had scribbled, pondering the meaning(if there was any) of this very strange dream. I'm not sure why, but I felt like straightening
the rows out. I wrote this:


You can probably see that it wasn't a huge leap of curiosity that led me to add the numbers together.
Again my jaw dropped. This time I wasn't dreaming.

I'll let YOU put two and two together.

I'm just going to call it a very weird dream, so I'll still be able to sleep at night.
Dafremen The first dream was blathered under man_with_two_eyes. 030809
oldephebe nicely done Daf


this kind of reminds me of conversations I used to have with a few ultra-conservative cornfed fundamentalist christians in college
we'd spin these ornate quilts of conjecture - some called them absurdist - trying to divine or glean an apt contextual metaphor or metaphorical instatiation of the beasts manifestations - it got kind of creepy sometimes - yeah that the beast resides in all these copper lined wires and reams of code - spreading its ubiquitous tenticles deeper and deeper into the strata, the ah infrastructure -the ligature that facilitated the day to day transactions - the beast in the cables, in the code, insinuating itself inextricably into everything - and terror our terror gnawing at the edges
its coming we admonished one another - the last days are here ..

but ah that was long ago - a few earnest teens, we'd learned our catchechisms well - but still..you know trying to conciliate the unhappy harmony of hard nosed empirism and a cherished if not lapsed faith

really enjoyed this one Daf
oldephebe relentless inner critic - the word is
this is the image I was trying to convey
a silently insidious encroachment - predation the enemy of all creation, the enemy of mans soul writhing just beneath the threshold of mans perception
I'm here fomenting and fermenting and the "lambs precious lambs (snicker) for all their vaunted achievements are ripe for slauhter, blind, slack jawed, and I will wreak HAVOC! into their plastic placid little world - from the bowels of earth to the rim of sky I will unleash a terror, a tapestry of terror that will eclipse the darkest imaginations" well something like that anyway - hmm
Dafremen The monologue below came off the ends of my fingers about 30 minutes ago. I was talking to a friend about the dream when I just started typing all of this stuff. I had never thought it before. Yes, this is writing. No this is not fiction. Just a really messed up dream and some very lucid moments.

roger dafremen: In particular, I think it points to math science and or technology as the Beast that rules over man. If you think about it, the economy has us all by the balls. It runs us, we don't run it. If we stop working the dollar plummets, because it's value is determined by the number of goods the U.S. exports in a year.
roger dafremen: Our creation has become our master and we dont dare stop
roger dafremen: tbecause then all of our money and savings would become worthless
roger dafremen: So we stay in the hamster wheel
roger dafremen: And it owns us
roger dafremen: We didn't have to WORK in nature
roger dafremen: Unless you call hunting for rabbits work
roger dafremen: Picking raspberries
roger dafremen: Playing with your kids
roger dafremen: Teaching them to shoot
roger dafremen: and climb
roger dafremen: yea...it was hard work alright
roger dafremen: tthe kind of hard work that we call leisure now
roger dafremen: Go screw screws into that assembly every day for the next 3 years? OR hunt today, build a dugout canoe tomorrow, tan some hides the next day
roger dafremen: Whadda ya think?
roger dafremen: I'd prolly go with the screws
roger dafremen: Monotony is my cup of tea
roger dafremen: by the way
roger dafremen: do you have any idea where all of this is coming from?
roger dafremen: cuz I sure as f*ck dont
no one in particular the_significance_of_nine 030809
shivers k, i thought that this would be the perfect place to tell u about the dream i had last night
i barely ever dream about something religious... or dream at all so here goes!

im on a roof of some high rise... im working for some fbi type deal ( i watched csi b4 i went to bed) and someone died but their body is missing the ends of the arms and legs and is all white. it kinda looks like a mummy
...time passes...
a lady approaches me, i know that shes part of some cult. she tells me that i wont believe it but the body died 15,000 yrs ago. a guy dressed in black says something about jesus and points to the other end of the roof and there is a a figure. its the same off white colour of the body. it looks almost as if it were made with sand. there are no feet only a puddle of "sand" at the base of its legs. its crying out even tho it has no face. i still cringe when i think about it.

thats when i wake up... i think
i cant move/breathe. i remember trying to scream to wake up my brother across the hall but no noise comes out. i feel my dog moving at my feet. i feel so dead. something clicks, im wide awake and all is back to normal. i still dont understand wut happend
Dafremen Wow. That's almost as weird as the fact that the 10 digits that are the basis of human mathematics and science added up are equal to the number of the beast mentioned in revelations? And not randomly finagled around...in exact sequential order and grouped 4 digits, 3 digits, 2 digits, 1 digit. It could be coincidence I suppose. Course my shoes might run off and join the circus too. 030809
Revelations 13:18 "Woe to you, oh earth and sea
for the devil sends the beast with wrath
because He knows, the time is short.
Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the Beast
for it is a human number
it's number is 666."
oldephebe again ((*shiver*)) 030810
shivers no need to be sarcastic 030810
oldephebe just to clarify that ((*shiver*)) denotes an authentic sense of dread,
I've been reared on the cosmology of the Last Days - Tribulation - Rapture - Final Contest between forces of good and evil - when it comes to my Faith I don't dare try to be flippant -

Dafs' dream kind of sent an enfilade of ice sickles parding up and down my spine

oldephebe parading!

ahh! that's better!
Dafremen I have been contacted by people since I wrote this. It gets weirder than you can imagine. This is definitely turning into an Omen IV moment. 030810
silentbob Wow, this is a noodle scratcher if i ever heard one
I never have such detailed dreams. they are all a mess of chaos and catch phrases that don't exactly mold together. its like different flashes of things.
And i don't really have much faith in a spiritual world, and im not sure if you do or not, so maybe its this driving force which reminds you that there is belief in a spiritual world, and your knowledge that people believe it and your knowledge that people believe in John, fuels the pyschocinematic journey of this dream.
Not that a real spirit is telling you to believe, just your thoughts reflecting themselves to you, whether or not you believe in them.

Also, the drilling for oil part is... well...
i think that is most likely just the fear that technology is satan, or oil and greed...yeah.

there's three things i can't interpret very well.

one is dreams. when people have dreams and say...what does this mean, im like...that means you want to have sex with that girl.
the second is poetry. "What do you think such and such was saying with this?"
"Well... i think he was saying..that he liked...leaves of grass...*cough*"
"Very interesting. Next?"

And the third is carny-speak. Circus folk. a language all their own really. They greet people with chants of "Ya ready, buddy?" and "Hey hey whaddya say." I mean. that's all i've picked up. The rest is just greek to me.
Dafremen Now in the 4th period of my life on the zodiacal calendar, I am making ready my home..the entire last seven (can it have been seven years already?) and prepare myself (sensitive Cancer Moon) for the tempest that is about to fall around my ears, I, in typical Cancer fashion, strengthen my armor by securing and testing the bonds between myself and the people around me. Must see who can past muster. In this same way, I am being called to pass muster. The objective? The same..to see if I have what it takes to resist temptation, pressure, to make sure that when the time comes to look straight in the face of the most awesome challenge ever given to a group of human beings: that of liberating the human race from a lie, we will not crumble, we will not fail..we will pass muster. This is the Cancer time in my life..and I WILL pass muster dammit, I MUST! I have waited my entire life for this time! I will not miss the growing tide and see that happy place which I've dreamt of since learning what was wrong and what was right from the trees and the cicadas as I lay sleeping in my drunken grandparent's front yard at night, some 30 years ago pondering, why there was so much pain, with so many longing for love? Is this our way? It never made sense to me.

I am approaching the Leo time in my life. I will be 35 this year. I'm so scared, yet I know there are those that count on me to play this particular part in my show, whether they believe it, know it or not. Leo time is time to shine, time to put it on the line and pull it off. Time to give em the best show of your life. It's time to use all your skills to get your ducks in a row, get things organized. It lasts 7 years. I've got seven years to use everything I've been given, everything I've ever seen or heard, known or thought I knew, (or guessed I probably should have known), to give the finest I have to give. The pressure, is immense for a no go guy like me..see I have no fire in my chart..ok just a wee bit, but it sputters and fades. Leo needs full on energy and one hundred percent of your attention, every honest opportunity becomes a tightrope that Leo walks with such amazing grace it makes the Golden Grahams Kid no slicker than Wilford Brimley in comparison. I have to be ready to do that, walk that line with grace and audacity and gusto..and my one great consolation is that I'm not alone. There are a lot of people who have responded to this dream. There are others who know of or seek after the other numbers that exist: for ones that waken the sleeping knowledge planted in our subconscious before we came. I'm not sure where these people are in their lives, but I know that many of them are hitting their Leo years right now. The 6th zodiacal period is next. Time for selfless service.

But that's for later..let's get through the next 7 first. Whew, what a show indeed! Hold on folks, it's going to be quite a ride!

Thank you life! Thank you everything!

oldephebe That was one of the most honest arguments for a persons being or spirit that I've read on this site. Look I'm not endowed with the kind of faculty that would enable me to peer into the recesses of your hear/mind (nor would I want it)

I know nothing about numerology or the Zodiac - I have no reason to doubt you or the words you have written - if you read my comments again you'll see I take great pains to qualify my assertions -

I remember this dream I had, I must have been eight or nine

it was an Armegeddon vision - I knew that implicitly - some Divine force said it to my soul

In the dream people were frantic, hoarding supplies

umm they had the radio on listening to the news only I heard and sensed this malevolent presence - and the words coming out of the radio weren't english
it was some proto-language or dialect of the first angels or something like that - only the whole vibe was malevolent - and everyone seemed to hear it in english - the rational part of me is preventing me from going into the disturbing details but never the less, even at that young age I knew it was some kind of metaphorical or symbolic warning of the big heavy that's supposed to go down -

never told anyone about it
never had the dream again but it's imprimature is still there - it fills me with dread every time I think about it or try to recall it.

I see your perceptual door is wide open
and you gotta due what you gotta do

Dafremen The details are important. Please email them to me if you can bring yourself to remember them. It could be crucial to the big picture, it might simply be helpful to YOUR ability to see the big picture. Either way, those details are important to me. I feel that. It was the hoarding of supplies that made me feel that you have something. I can't tell you why here. There are those who see light and would consume it. There are those who would consume because that is all they have known, all they have been taught, consumption...like the very dirt they are half made of. Why is it that we forget these facts? We are made of Earth. But that's the EASY one. That's the conclusion that 3 days of meditating in a state park could lead you to if you really wanted to seek after truth. The hard one is when we fail to realize that we are ALSO made of Sun. Where do we think that food gets the energy we need to think? Move? Breath? Live? We are Earth AND we are Sun. More if you'd like. I am on AIM/MSN all day. 030812
ferret (wow) wow. that's about all i can say. wow again. i can't think of anything except.... wow. that's just...... wow. 030812
oldephebe I second what ferret wrote

Yeah Daf maybe it is time to let the frozen words fall upon the swelling (thaw) ground.

Umm I'll give it some thought. I'll probably need your screen name for the AIM/NET thing. Oh wait I do have your email account. To be honest I don't think I'm ready to plunge into that vortex just yet. Maybe I'll take your advice and clean out my aura, purge my soul get connected to the treasure of Light. But I want to keep everything in balance. Maybe I'll let myself be fed by the scriptures, see what Pual has to say about pursuing these estuaries of conjecture. I haven't fasted in quite some time. The old aura could certainly use it.
Dafremen It's funny that you just mentioned fasting. I was thinking of starting my fast on Sunday(Best day(along with Thursday) to start things and obtain a positive outcome. I'm quoting astrology...that's all.)

Three day fast. It's a beginning. Liquids only until the last day. Then nothing for 24 hours. This is my own personal first test of worthiness to anything. Can I control my consumption? No drugs, alcohol anything. Just some water, maybe chamomile tea to calm the stomach.

It's a challenge that I need to face. It'd prolly be easier with company.

You in?
oldephebe this response is kinda late but..
i've been doing a lot of fasting lately, not really for some spiritual enema, or purging of the malice and bile that tends to collect in the human heart - just need to lose some whieght

can't believe you read the entire
A-Christ blathe - gotta say it was disconcerting to say the least but to each his own. Yay! more cliches!
screwing for vrginity spiritual_enema... i like that phrase, but im not sure why. 030911
realistic optimist i truly think that those with human compassion, those with vision, and those with humility need to band together. not to wreak their vision upon the world, but to guide those who cannot see, to help reshape the ensuing chaos. i have always felt that i am one of those people, but there is strength in numbers, my brethren. until we can order ourselves with common purpose, we must treat each event in our days with open eyes and open heart, remembering to smile and to breathe, and when acting or reacting, calling to mind that human compassion so that the universe can be tamed with our resonance. 030911
oldephebe says:an emphatic AMEN realistic optimist 030911
realistic optimist daf: don't for get that in addition to sun and earth, we are 90% water, and i don't say that to allude to POE, but just to say that i'm thirsty. but perhaps i'm thirsty only to share water with my newfound water brethren. cheers, thou are god, and may you never thirst. ::passes the glass:: 030911
Dafremen Water is Earth in that instance. There is light (energy)and earth (matter). That which comes from Sun and that which comes from Earth. 030911
realistic optimist well color me ignoramus :) 030912
oldephebe i didn't get the POE allusion at ALL..color me 'not quite keeping up'

please hold forth RO
the sig of 8 8! 050127
camille Dafreman your dreams speak volumes

Your dream reminded me of a dream that I had about 9 yrs. ago.

In my dream the world was amidst a war or some sort of global catastrophe.

I was running as explosions were going off all around me. Someone had a hold of my hand as I was running.
I felt safe, however did not know who it was that was running with me. I never turned to look at this person. The importance of who this person might be, was not an immediate concern. This person accompanied me as I was running for my life.

The earth seemed as if everything had been turned upside down..literally.. trees were uprooting, but as they shot from the earth like rockets. I began to question existence, why was i still on the ground running as trees seemed to uproot so easily and with such force... yet my feet firmly planted.

I looked to the sky for some kind of reasoning behind the madness, as nothing on earth could describe what I was experiencing. When I looked to the sky, it was no longer the blue sky, it was a blue ocean and battleships were traveling towards their destination defying gravity as they were upside down. The destination not clear in my dream.

My subconcious could not comprehend all that i was experiencing...to the point of the dream awakening me.

I woke up breathing heavy and gasping for air as if I had been running for days..
dafremen Camille,

There are pieces of the puzzle that you are missing. (As am I.) I have many of those pieces and would be more than happy to share them with you...in private. The reason being, of course that casting pearls before swine just results in pig-sh*t-covered-pearls.

My email is dafremen@hotmail.com

Your dream was prescient. You are seeing shadows of things to come. My daughter has been having those same dreams for over 6 years now. You and her aren't the only ones. There are literally tens of thousands of people like you, her and myself who are or have been feeling these things for many, many years.

see also: Dreams_of_the_False_Prophet
oldephebe Hey Daf - 'Sup?!

Camille - I'm thinking that maybe the fact that you were still rooted to the earth could be symbolic of some inner strength or gift that you have, it's slumbering right now...perhaps when the time comes that ability, that mooring or faith or whatever it was that allowed you to stay rooted while trees were tossed like toothpicks will awaken.

Something just occurred to me re:my armegeddon etude. I remember the dream being set somehow symblically in the late 30's to early 40's and yet there was this inescapably futuristic or skien of modernity to it. In my bedroom there was a victrola radio. My folks bought it used (obviously) and had it reconditioned. The newsmans voice that had melded with the malevolent voice wafting out of the Victrola radio had that 30's feel and cadense. I'm thinking that the radio was a conduit, or perhaps it contained the emotional memory or imprint of an aggregate of all the horrible things that happened in the radios presence. Or if it was an instrumentality of a dark force that infiltrates the human pysche through the electromagnetic field my interception of that vision/dream was purely furtuitous or the result of various ostensibly unconnected factors that conspired to transmit that vision into a seven year olds dreaming mind. Either way, I don't think I was supposed to intercept that vision. I think my childs dreaming mind re-organized the vision/message into a tableau that I could reasonably understand. I've never experienced such raw naked malevolence since. I mean it was like I knew that the entity beneath the human voice that no one else in the dream seemed to hear was Mephisophalese himself. Just thinking about it now shakes me up a little.

Daf - I've never tried to interpret it. (i) Don't think I have the stomach for it.
Mephistophalese 050403
camille oldephobe,
the dream is a mystery so have other reoccuring dreams since my childhood.

You mentioned 30's music and how it beckons fear emotion.

I love the 20's and 30's era music. Something about the music that leaves the mindset almost delusional like the thought patters of a very high fever when I listen to this music. Which could be interpreted as scary.

Maybe because it was a time before I was?
oldephebe Camille - Well I don't know. I mean I used to love big band music and all that. I just picked up local AM and FM rock and pop music stations of that radio as a kid. In the dream, the radio was used as an instrumentality... a representaion to convey some dark and yeah apocalyptic message and IN the dream everyone seemed to be dressed in 30's 40's era clothing and yet there was something modern about them as well. If you read any of my posts you'll find that the meaning tends to get lost in the dense and circuitous incoherence of my prose.

Style over substance?

Hmmm I wonder.

You're response to that periods music is provocative, interesting. Could you elaborate a little more?

I mean I guess I'm never going to become some street corner pscyhotic apocalyptic self-ordained preacher driven by this dream remnant, this thorn that has impelled me, that has set its' seal upon my conscience and impelled me to rend my clothes and pull out my remaining hair and gnash my teeth violently (thereby destroying some pretty expensive orthodontia mind you) and haunted by this feeling of bitter grievance at the universe and attribting the actions of a free will to some unseen mystical cabal shrouded in smoke ...until I become this absurdist Learesque character only w/o the eloquence or moral and emotional and contextual authority.

That dream may be the reason why I stay away from the book of revelations.

If you're comfortable with it, share some more of your visions with us.
dafremen Perhaps you'll honor us with the details of your dream, phebe? 050405
oldephebe Yeah - Daf I'd probably have under hypsosis to recall the entire thing, that and a heaping serving of Cannibus to take the edge off. I mean I felt raw pure evil, I felt like it was in me, feeding on my innocense, I knew it's heart as intimately as a 7 year old can know evil incarnates heart. No. I think I'll respectfully decline that request for now. Maybe a quarter bottle of Southern Comfort will loosen my tongue and sufficiently anesthetize me against wading in the echos of my first encounter with the very spirit of supernatural evil.
oldephebe "I'll probably have to underGO hypnosis to retriev those memories." is what i should have said.
stilted speech engine #1 Oh the POE referance has to do with water on the brain? A distinguishing characteristic of the men in Poes' family is the tendancy towards aquiring a genetic predisposition towards hydro-encephalic syndrome. I know this because I've read the works of several of his descendant distant cousins who are poets themselves. I've seen thier pictures and a brief family history that refers to the 'water on the brain' trait.
camille http://www.jolson.org/ra/bru/b09radioman.ram 050407
REAListic optimIST Oops, I was out to lunch on this blathe for a few years. Actually, the POE reference is more a P.O.E. reference, or Purity Of Essence, which is a conspiracy theme in "Dr. Strangelove: or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Atomic Bomb." 071123
daf see also: upon_waking 080527
iron fences (amongst other things) 080527
dafremen I didn't make those motherfuckers, Lord. And I certainly didn't have them do what they did. And so here I am, stuck with the poison they planted inside of me without the guidance to..

What? Lia?

Oh, yea.

Fuck you, Lord. Fair enough.
what's it to you?
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