hate_sex shh those of you who enjoy it, please try to explain the appeal. it is possible for the seeing to at least give a vague description of color to the blind, and i ask that you do the same for me. 031109 ... scuzz I hate sex these days. its image has been 'raped', if you will. I wish I'd lived 200, even 100 years ago when sex was still something special and sacred, shared by a married couple, yadda yadda yadda. Pardon another pun, but its become gay to consider sex as holy or private. I heard Mellisa Ethridge is currently in a same-sex marriage. I doubt many to stand on my side of the line in the dirt, but I feel sorry for her. I heard somewhere that 'gay' comes from a childhood experience, not another chromosome or God's intended will. That made me look at gays a lot differently, wondering who'd told them it was okay or fun. It'd be a 'crying shame' like the old country songs say if only we weren't calloused to the idea. Our parents have made plenty of shitty mistakes, usually including marriage, and I've tried my best to learn from them. I'd like to think I've found someone, and consider her for life, but I'm just a guy that doesn't know enough yet. Like a lot of people might privately admit, I hope I find a crutch to lean on when I need it. But sex in this society? Please. Don't tell me that's love without physical worship. 031109 ... magicforest Oh, bosh, Scuzz. You are just filled to the brim with hate for everything around you, aren't you! Let's hate all the gays. Let's hate everyone who has casual sex. Let's hate everyone who has premarital sex. Let's hate everyone who has a penis, while we're at it, or take us back 200 years ago as you suggested and then we can hate all the niggers too without worrying about silly things like "human rights" getting in the way! Let me ask you a question: Does hating seem to be making life any better? Let me ask you another question: Who the hell, when you were a kid, told you that it was okay to be heterosexual? Because according to your theory, that's the only reason you are attracted to the opposite sex. So if we rewound time and I went up to you when you were little and said, "It's okay to be gay!" you would have been homosexual too. In fact, I wish that theory were true, because then maybe you'd be less ignorant about homosexuality. Or maybe not. Maybe someone got there before me and told you it was okay to be ignorant. is the proud town lesbian 031109 ... x "I'm just a guy who doesn't know enough yet". Very true. 031109 ... what a mess I want sex so bad because I'm human and that's how it works right? I'm a virgin in a world where everybody is fucking constantly in the streets, in dorm rooms, in hotels, on television, at home, in cars, everywhere, everybody. Fat ugly people are fucking too, and I'm not fucking. Then I'm seeing all the beautiful flesh walking around and I wonder how to walk up to that living breating thinking human being and persuade them to let you put your penis inside their vagina and make the bed shake for a few minutes until our bodies feel really good all of a sudden and we start moaning like animals. Please, Mr. Freud, tell me what is going on here. 031109 ... smurfus rex to shh: if you mean "hate sex" like "drunk sex" or "casual sex", then I'd have to say the appeal is vaguely similar to that which would drive someone to practice kickboxing, namely, to vent frustration. But I've never engaged in it in that way, so I don't know for sure. If you mean "hate sex" like the opposite of "I love sex", then I'd have to say that you'll find the appeal when you find the right person to do it with. Trust me, it makes a difference depending on the participants. :) to scuzz: Dude, this is about sex, not your opinions about homosexual lifestyles. There are other blathes to put your views on that topic in that are more appropriate than this one. If it bothers you so much, go find them. It'll be like a treasure hunt in a way. to magicforest: eloquent as always. Why don't they understand? Will they ever? to mess: first, you can't just walk up to a woman and say, "hey nice smile, wanna fuck?" It's not an exaggeration to describe sex as a gift shared between two people, but it is an exaggeration to think that virginity is a handicap. I know I won't be the first one to say that it's the one thing you'll want to take back if you give it to the wrong person. So, bide your time, save it for someone you really truly deeply care about who will also appreciate the extremely unique gift she is about to receive, and you will find that your patience (and frustration) has paid off...and that it was worth the wait. Just remember not to be hasty about it, because you can only give it to someone once. And she'd better be worth it. 031109 ... LittleLostRidingHood Scuzz - How on earth a person born into modern society can acctually beleive that homosexuality is something 'acquired' during childhood I do not know. Do you think that it is like chicken-pox? You kinda pick it up? That you either get it or you dont?? I can safely tell you that it is not the case. Being 'gay' is something you are born. Although you may not realise it until a later age, you always will have been. There are fundamental differences in the brains of hetro and homo sexuals. Just as in people who spend their whole lives wishing to be the other sex, they are not 'sick' or 'affected by society', studies show that the Sexual Dymorphic Cell is smaller or larger depending on the sex and preference of the person. No wonder you are so filled with hate and anger, ignorance is normally born out of fear.... You need to get with the 21st century darling, otherwise you are going to be one sad, lonely little bunny. Welcome to 2003. Bi and proud ;) 031110 ... p2 shh how is it possible to describe color to the blind? it's like trying to describe an emotion without referencing other emotions describe purple to me without referencing anything visual including other colors as for hate_sex if you have to ask it's probably not for you you probably don't have enough hate in your heart 031110 ... Syrope p2 let's get angry and fuck i love your words 031110 ... p2 you're_too_nice you_can_break_my_face we_could_be_so_beautiful 031110 ... shh yes i meant hate_sex, as in hate_crime, casual_sex, date_rape. color can be described to a blind person by simply describing what function it performs. "color is like pitch, and brightness is like loudness." "an apple has a certain color all over it, although it changes in intensity depending on where the light is reflecting off of it." it can be described. i am not the type to connect sex and hatred or anger, and i just want it clarified to me. 031110 ... p2 you can explain what function color serves but not the colors themselves similarly i can explain the concept of hate_sex but not its appeal it is assumed love_and_hate are at opposite ends of a spectrum but it really depends on how you look at it in terms of pure_passion true_love and true_hate are at the same end of the scale as they say it is a thin_line between love_and_hate 031111 ... misstree well said, p2. it's all about intensity. sex as martial art rather than walk in the park. 031111 ... unhinged when i say 'i love you' i mean that i love YOU when you say 'i love you' you mean that you love my hole and it never occurred to you that sex means nothing more to me than something i should do for myself by myself in the dark. that sex has nothing to do with love. that the reason you like having sex with me so much better is because you can teach me something and 'own' me. which reminds me distinctly of how i lost my virginity. drunk and noncompliant with someone i didn't know. the only reason you love me is for what you can get out of me --- a relatively unused hole. and that is how every heterosexual relationship i've ever had has ended up. not for my mind, my talent, my ambition...but for my hole. yeah, i feel a girl phase coming on. 031111 ... misstree long ago i start using boys the way that some boys use girls. i have a very hungry hole. it makes unevolved boys very uncomfortable, but just like the users i have come to emulate, i don't really care. 031111 ... Syrope i know what you're saying misstree unevolved_boys - i like that phrasing so do i pretend to be someone i'm not, so you'll give me a chance, or do i hope you're one of those insightful_types who can see through the casual, the hate, the bored, the experimental sex? 031111 ... unhinged yeah, i could use this particular boy that way since he is willing to drive nine hours 'to fuck me all weekend long' and believe me i thought of it. but the idea of ownership in this situation is just too repugnant to me to give in to it. he's too witless to realize that i would just be using him and it would turn into this ugly thing that i won't deal with right now. i am once again at the point that i would rather use my own hand than another human being. the idea of using him is nice but the reality of it is something i don't have time for. damn the man that made me too busy to use another man for sex. 031111 ... scuzz I see I've stepped on some peoples' toes here. I'm sorry it's offended you, but this's what I believe. My comment about 200 years ago had nothing to do with the slavery issue. I'm not ignorant; I know I'd still have problems if I could go back then. Bringing up slavery was incredibly irrelevant. (Smurfus rex, please don't tell me where to post. This IS about sex, not regulating on the little guys just to get on everyone else's good side.) If anyone wants to talk to me through e-mail or even MSN messager, I'd be glad to talk. I'm not here to offend people, but you can't convince me that people are BORN gay, just like I don't expect to convince you of anything. Ignorance comes from having a limitation of sources. I know what media is saying. I know what even most parents are saying (in America). I researched countless scientific theories and 'explanations'. I even know what Leviticus 18:22 says. Recommend a site for me to read, if anyone has some. 031111 ... smurfus rex :D ... 031111 ... Little Lost Riding Hood Ok Scuzz, you have said how you feel, I understand that you are not intentionally trying to offend people. But talking about sensitive issues as you are, especially with opinions that may be considered inflammatory or not particularly liberal, you are bound to get people's backs up. Your point on ignorance : 'Ignorance comes from having a limitation of sources', my sentiments exactly - yet you go on to say how aware you are of media and parental values...which brings me back to fear being a major influence of ignorance. If you are so aware of everything - why are you still predjudiced?? You say you have done your research on the relation of DNA/ birth to homosexual tendencies - yet you still proclaim it is in no way related to your brain pattern at birth? The cluster of cells known as the hypothalamus in the brains of homosexual men has been found to be twice as large by volume as in heterosexual men. I know a few good websites, and I also regularly read New Scientist which often has related articles in. I see your points, and am always open to suggestion. Studies are constantly being developed and improved and of course we can be proved wrong at any time. I would be happy to talk to you via e-mail, feel free to contact me if you want to discuss these issues further! 031112 ... unhinged and all this to come back to the point that sex is the animal part of humanity that i don't want anything to do with 031112 ... misstree unhinged, no disrespect intended, but how can you deny something that is so animalistic and so deeply ingrained? how do you do it? it's as sure as heartbeat that there are going to be twitches in our groins; do you redirect those twitches or just damp them down? personally, the animalistic nature is one of the things i like most about sex. we are beasts who pretend we are not. i deny myself that deception as much as i can, as it does not please me, and i have many more important deceptions to maintain. 031112 ... p2 we_are_the_world you_cant_kill_me we_know you_are_no_different we're_never_going_to_be_alright you_are_never_getting_out_of_here_alive we_are_the_world 031112 ... x who told them it was okay or fun? who told them it wasn't? it's unfortunate that it matters at all what people tell "them". what is so fundamentally wrong about being attracted to people of the same sex? lay it out for me. 031112 ... scuzz The pattern I've seen in friends of mine that are gay is that they were either molested, told it didn't matter either way, or have a crap relationship with a parent (guys hate their dad's, girls never met their moms). Some of them feel like they can't get a stable balance of love out of just one parent, and have reached out to anyone to substitute it. x, I guess if you look at anything's good sides it won't seem wrong. There's no way to 'lay out' for you why homosexuality is wrong; it's just my opinion, which came from things that I chose to believe for my life. I don't doubt that what ridinghood said is true, but then ask how those cells grew. Could the human mind train them to expand? That's "further research" I'll do this weekend. 031112 ... Ender I think Scuzz is a horrible person and possible a gay himself who is trying to fight his Homosexualality within himself. I think he eventually become gay. And when he does then he will hate straight people, which Iam by the way. 031112 ... misstree i see no reason to believe that scuzz is in any way deluded about his sexuality. though i disagree *very* strongly with his opinoins, he's rational and well-spoken and not flinging infantile insults. *stares at Ender* scuzz, my experiences haven't shown me any direct correlation between someone's sexuality and the factors you listed. many straight people have those characteristics as well. you said to x that "if you look at anything's good sides it won't seem wrong." i can understand that, but what do you see as the bad sides? 031112 ... unhinged i wasn't molested, wasn't told it didn't matter either way, have grown up all my life with a solid relationship with both my parents and i'm bi. while those may be factors to revelation, i don't think that's what causes people to be gay or not gay. misstree, no disrespect perceived. i guess i'm just disgusted at the fact that many people base their relationships solely on sex. love and sex really have nothing to do with each other in my mind. i don't deny my animalistic urges. i just prefer to take care of them myself most of the time ;-) 031112 ... misstree aah. okay, i agree with you that love and sex have little to do with eachtother, and far too many people confuse them... i'm a bit of a fan of bumping uglies with no attachments, so i missed that part. 031112 ... scuzz misstree, thanks for understanding and respecting my views. I understand that what I said doesn't always apply and that I haven't thought of everything, but those sure have been factors before. Nice way of putting it, unhinged. lol real nice. Seriously, that's all I meant to say about love=sex! I just think (and my original thought concerned straight sex) that it's getting too casual. NO I don't believe in casual sex. I know it feels great, but I believe that greater respect comes out of holding off. What else woud make women feel like a piece of meat? 031112 ... misstree you still haven't answered what you think the bad points of homosexuality are, dahlink scuzz. *poke poke* 031112 ... scuzz Oh, ha. Sorry. I told this once to someone that had a gay friend. She told me God just wants us to be happy, and that her friend should do whatever he wants as long as it makes him happy. Wouldn't that make sense? The way I see it is that God set down rules so that we'd be happy. (Amazingly hard for me to accept for a really really long time.)Her friend moved into a lot of sexual stuff with guys. The Bible says 'lead me not into temptation', which says more than just 'keep me clear out of temptation's way'. Her friend is not WRONG to be gay, but the action; be it marriage or sex, that's the sin. That's what I think is "wrong" about being gay. It's not wrong/sinful to be tempted, it's wrong to act on the idea. (For her friend at least) it wasn't about love anymore, but physical pleasure. That's what I consider to be the bad side. 031112 ... misstree okay. a problem with promiscuity and emotionless_sex, i can understand, especially in a religious context. my leanings are otherwise, but that's unimportant. is the stereotyped connection between promiscuity and homosexuality the only reason you are against homosexuality? if so, i assure you that you are condemning a good number of people based on false assumptions. promiscuity among members of opposite sexes would be just as prohibited as between members of the same_sex. just paused a moment to pick lemon_soda 's brain, and he informed me of one of the dogmatic catch-22s that you may have the stance of. since sex outside wedlock is wrong and marriage is only sanctioned between man and woman, there is no possible circumstance in which two people of the same sex could consumate their love. if this is what you're talking about, let me know, but for now, i am sleepysleepy. cheers. 031112 ... scuzz I've spent a lot of time with personal friends that are homosexual, so I know I'm not blathing based on stereotypes. I support those that want to deal with it or just talk about it. I... I guess I don't respect people accept it to move on with sexual relationships. This is hard for me to even write because it just sounds so critical, but that just seems to me as if they've given up, like they might as well because they'll never change. But then I've said that their sexual pleasure in the same sex is merely temptation, which sounds insensative, I know. That's what I believe. Does that make me a jerk? 031112 ... smurfus rex let's say I'm an Orthodox Jew and I've been raised to believe that eating pork of any kind is wrong because pigs are unclean animals. let's say that all the time growing up, if I wanted a sandwich, my mom would only make me a peanut butter and jelly one, even if they gave me a little stomachache. let's say that, round about mid-puberty, I start wondering what's wrong with pork. Bacon double cheeseburgers, Hickory Farms smoked sausage, Louis Rich honey-baked ham, "The Other White Meat"...so maybe, one day, I decide to try a ham sandwich without telling my mom. I know she's always said it's wrong to eat pork, but damn if that ham don't taste good, right? let's say this goes on, this eating ham sandwiches in secret. The God of Abraham hasn't struck me down, I'm not hurt, and I actually feel less hungry after a ham sandwich than after a peanut butter one. So one day I tell my mom and dad that I eat ham sandwiches, that I like them, and that I don't plan on stopping. let's say my mom and dad are actually cool, and they realize they can only teach me so much before I have to learn for myself. So they let me have my ham sandwiches because they know they make me happy, even though they'd rather I have peanut butter and jelly like they do. is it still wrong for me to eat ham sandwiches if they make me happier and satisfy my hunger better? do you see what I'm getting at? 031112 ... Little Lost Riding Hood Hey Scuzz, I have replied to your e-mail, if anyone else is interested, here is a rather good website: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web1/Rana.html 031113 ... Lemon_Soda Yes, smurfus, it would be wrong. That is, by the belief system you were raised by, hypothetically speaking. OR Its perfectly exceptable. If you don't believe that the laws set down by the God of Abraham are correct than you, personnally, are not obligated to follow them. OR The guidlines that you have erected for yourself do not stipulate the differance, so it is assumed that nothing wrong was done until a negative experience enforces it as otherwise. Wrong and right can only be answered by one of three bodies: Religion, Philosophy, and Concience. Which one do you follow? 031113 ... scuzz (Thanks Little) About the ham, that's a strong point. "Your parents" in that situation would probably be a little harder, since it's coming from a religious standpoint. Pork was seen as unclean in the Old Testament because the people didn't have what we have today to clean the meat of bacteria, so people that ate it usually became really sick. It's the same thing with lobster. Satisfying your hunger is another point, probably the main point you were making. I understand that everyone has a hunger for something, I've chosen God to satisfy mine. Just as easily someone could turn to "ham sandwiches". I know that ham might taste better, but consider what your parents meant by keeping you from it, and understand why it's 'wrong' before you sneak off and eat some. What feels the best is not necessarily right. (cholesterol, etc in your adult life) 031113 ... x Whoa. So you're saying that the reason that pork was prohibited is no longer valid. BUT in the same breath you're saying that this outdated law must still be obeyed. Perhaps the bible was wrong about homosexuality as well, because the bible was written by mere people, not god, and people are wrong, and ignorant. We are learning more all the time. 031113 ... scuzz I didn't refer to present day outside of the original analogy. I'm not saying those laws should/n't be obeyed today, but if they are and you don't agree, QUESTION IT. I spent 15 years of my life questioning everything people told me. Sure, the Bible was written by people. that's an undeniable fact. I believe God gave the people the words they needed. It's like having an oral report due and having the teacher sitting there with you, telling you what would make the best presentation. Sure, they could have written whatever they wanted; they WERE just people. "People are wrong, and ignorant." All people? Students? Philosophers? 031113 ... x all people 031113 ... scuzz Then who are you comparing ignorance to? Sure, we're always learning, but we're in a constant state of ignorance? I don't understand that point, x. 031113 ... smurfus rex it was either Will Rogers or Mark Twain who said, "Everyone is ignorant, just in different subjects." 031113 ... unhinged i guess the point that baffles me is why an person that considers themselves a christian would condemn others for any reason. not knowing too much about jesus from a practicing religious stand point, but taking a very wonderful religion class in my undergrad that enlightened me to the historical jesus, mohammad, and siddartha guatama, the impression i got was that jesus judged and/or condemned NO ONE. he truly loved every living person and spent his life healing all that he could. the bible is merely one guide to reducing misery in one's life. and a little historical context on the homosexuality clause in the bible and religion in general throughout human history: it has always been a way to organize society. and maybe in an idealist world make its followers more happy. but mostly to control mass populations of relatively uneducated people; a control mechanism. and back in the day that the bible was written survival of the human race was a litte less definite than it is now what with medecine a dream of the sick, food a dream of the hungry, peace a dream of the war-stricken. any words you can site in the bible that say homosexuality is wrong were put there mainly as a way to continue the human race. and not to mention that the bible was written generations after jesus died; not a person that put it down knew jesus personally. and we all know how corrupted oral traditions can become after even just one generation. so i guess, number one, homosexuality has obviously been around since the beginning of time if people are writing about it all the way back in 300 a.d. or whenever the bible was written and that we shouldn't trust anything we read which was already a point giving here. perception is a matter of individual interpretation but jesus took it upon himself to make every individual perception his own perception. society and the human race are slightly different 2000 years later. and if jesus walked the earth today, i think he would be too. i'm cutting myself off now. 031114 ... 23 per a friend who is a linguist and bible scholar, there is actually very little said about homosexuality (3 or 4 mentions, i think), and most of what there is, is ambiguous. however, there are pages upon pages dedicated to the keeping of goats. it's a guide, not a lawbook. unhinged, good point about being judgemental; that's one thing that i always admired very much about him, that he's very devout and very spiritual, but also very accepting of other's beliefs and ways of life. many of our morals are in contradiction, but he sees that i'm (mostly) a good person, and loves and respects me for me, as i do for him. 031114 ... . "Christians declaring some bullsh*t war against people because they don't agree with who they're f*ckin! ... Excuse me, but aren't you the same people who burned witches for hundreds of f*cking years? You don't get the 'good judge of character' award, you stupid f*cks! You want evil, I'm not the one screwing little kids, okay? Your priests are! You wanna call me evil while Father O'Reilly is ducking in the back room to pork a f*cking third grader? You can kiss my gay ass!"- from "Holy Wars" by 2 the ranting gryphon 031114 ... smurfus rex I'm going to diverge from the current discussion a bit and return to the original question about the appeal of hate sex... Think of sex like a sport, such as boxing. You have times when you practice by yourself, and others where you test your skills with a sparring partner. But sometimes, you enter into a full-on boxing match, where the way to win is by beating it out of your opponent. There's your hate sex session...it's naked boxing, but without the punches (unless you're both into that, I guess). So if you find full-contact, full-speed boxing appealing (participating, not watching), then you can find the appeal of hate sex. But I'm only guessing. 031114 ... 23 very apt. in such things, orgasms are not taken, they are thrown like weapons. 031114 ... scuzz unhinged, I don't want you to think that I'm condemning homosexuals. (Sorry smurfus, hold that thought) Bottom line for me, homosexuality is a temptation based on physical worship. I'm not judging homosexuals, I'm saying it's sin. 031114 ... smurfus rex 23, so are you saying that if sex IS like boxing, then orgasms are like ninja stars? hmmm...*rubs chin* scuzz, I'm holding. But I'd like to add that heterosexuality can be a temptation based on physical worship too...:) 031114 ... scuzz True, but not necessarily. 031115 ... unhinged i think sin by the very nature of the word is condemnation. sin implies bad and wrong and going straight to hell if we don't acknowledge our sinful actions and repent for them. (that's just my limited catholic knowledge of sin) i don't see why i should repent for loving someone even if i can't procreate with that person. my sexuality is based in love and not so much sex. so love is a sin now? *shakeshead* 031115 ... smurfus rex heterosexuality IS temptation based on physical worship, otherwise, there would be no MTV Spring Break... Come to think of it, Spring Break in general just wouldn't be the same (Cozumel, Cancun, Cabo San Lucas, Puerto Vallarta, etc.)... And neither would Mardi Gras... But then, I've only been to these places when they've been on TV, so what do I know? :) 031115 ... scuzz Sin is any disobedience to God's will. That is, if I wanted to do what John Q. did, I'd pray a lot to see if that's the answer for the situation. I wouldn't just assume His answer. I would probably have friends praying for guidance for me, and ask my pastor what he thought about my possible choices. While holding up a hospital to save my son MAY be the answer FOR ME, it may not necessarily be right for someone else to do the same. God has a specific plan for all of us, and our deviation from His plan is sin. This does not say that homosexuality is right for some people. The Bible, brief as it may be, states that homosexuality itself is sin. "Sin" does not necessarily imply universal evil or wrongdoing, is my point. If you wanted another opinion, consider asking someone in a church wherever you live. About love, are you talking about homosexual love? If that's the love you're feeling, how do you know you're homosexual? What is it that ever told you that you're gay? Is that element in this relationship? Again, I know that heterosexuals can be in it for the physical love, hence Marti Gras and MTV. I don't know what your question is then.. 031116 ... smurfus rex it's not really a question, but a statement that both homosexuality and heterosexuality can be temptations based on physical worship. When you brought it up earlier, it sounded to me like you were saying such temptation was found only in homosexual lifestyles. 031116 ... scuzz Oh, sorry. No, I meant that homosexuality IS that temptation. Heterosexuality CAN be that temptation. 031116 ... Annie111 What exactly makes homosexuality a sin? The Bible has a lot of crap in it that we don't really subscribe to anymore, re: slaughtering of goats, etc. It is, unfortunately, not a living document. Things change. I don't think loving someone should ever be considered a sin, and I venture to guess Jesus would agree. The problem with the Bible, as with a lot of "guides" to living, including the Constitution, is that it's so hard to adapt interpretations of it to allow room for change yet retain the heart of the writer's intentions. That's what the Supreme Court is for, I suppose, and the Pope. I think the Constitution is easier to conform to... the laws contained within are a lot more reasonable. The Bible: yes, for many it is a guide for life. But so literally? I cannot and will not subscribe to anything that deems something as harmless and unhostile as homosexuality a "sin". Maybe I'm too scientific about this... but shouldn't we be able to question what rules are handed down to us? Even if it is from God? 031116 ... scuzz Homosexuality is under the category of temptation, boiling down to morals. If you don't feel that homosexuality is harmful, don't think I mean for you to agree with me. Being predisposed to alcoholism isn't harmful... is it? As for the rules of the Bible. Most of the Old Testament isn't meant for us today, you're right. But the New Testament is the 'guide' you're talking about? Is it hard to 'make room' for what you want? (Again, back to morals) Loving your neighbor, being honest, yea I know it's pretty tough to keep the peace these days, but that's all temptation. (Sorry, I think I'm getting redundant) Most of the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally, which can be determined from the context. This is what allows it to be applied to our lives; we live by what it says (commandments) and act by what it means (Christ's parables). YES! All I want for anyone is to know they're FREE to question! I don't have all the answers, so ask people you know. If you care enough about this subject, get some feedback from people at work you know are "churchy". Question, but just keep an open mind. It took me 15 years. 031116 ... x you thought about this for 15 years, and these are the conclusions you came to? that's amazing. how old are you? 031116 ... Annie111 So, what you're saying is that we can all believe what we want to believe? This I agree with. But by labelling homosexuality a "sin" you are judging other people for their beliefs. I'm sorry... I don't really know where to go from here, I honestly just cannot fathom any type of homophobia. It's hard for me to form a logical counterpoint to something that I feel is inherently prejudice. 031117 ... scuzz Saying it's a sin isn't judgment, it's a belief. Judgment would be saying the person is bad or evil, which you could determine by taking what I've said beyond just that. You can't know my ("prejudice") attitude toward homosexuals just because I say it's sin. 031117 ... unhinged so if a child of yours was homosexual would you send them to one of those clinics to teach them how to be straight? you can't really qualify someone else's sin. by sitting there and telling someone else that they are sinful you are judging them no matter what your definition of sin is. isn't the way we get into heaven by having our sins (bad things we've done) weighed in the eyes of god and/or his messengers and they tell us whether we are worthy of heaven? and people say that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of god because we are denying the ability that god gave us to create life. at a time in history when the planet is as crowded as it has ever been and people are starving and homeless would god consider it a sin (whatever your definition of sin is) to make the choice not to create life to make the quality of life better for those already living? not saying that choosing to be homosexual means that you are first thinking of improving the quality of life for others, but indirectly the choice of homosexuality helps out the whole world population in the end. how many children sit in orphanges unwanted? is it not a bigger sin to create life and then abandon it for others to take care of? and i agree with annie; i don't think jesus and/or god would deem any kind of wholesome love sinful whether it was heterosexual or homosexual. i think it's a funny quirk of christianity to condemn others in terms of what they eat, who they love when these things don't hurt anyone else, when jesus actively loved EVERYONE. so many christians forget the source; if everyone that claimed to be christian truly acted in the likeness of jesus the world would be a much better place. 031117 ... scuzz If my child came to me and told me he was homosexual, I’d listen to him; how he felt, whether he’d been hiding or denying it, and what he wanted from me (support, advise…). A clinic wouldn’t require as much responsibility on my part… Again, I’m not basing that on judgment. Judgment would have me say, “You’re not welcome because of what you’re doing with your life. You’re against God. Get out of my house.” I’m not referring to the person, just the homosexuality. Your name isn’t Homosexual; peoples’ lifestyles that I may not agree with aren’t what I base our relationships on. And no, unhinged, Christianity states you get into Heaven through the blood of Christ, not good works. Yes, you have to give an account of your life to God, but the Bible says you have to have had a relationship with God during your life. That is, letting Him “into your heart” as the cliché goes. He knows your heart/mind/intentions, and isn’t softened by nice people that didn’t know Him. When you say that homosexuality will help stabilize the world’s population, you are assuming that people are generally horny, and have two choices (Hetero- or homo-). Sex itself is not a necessity in anyone’s life, whatever they think. Since abstinence is a possibility, God would not make homosexuality “right” (whatever your definition of right is) as a quick fix for those whose lifestyles are otherwise “raising the population”. There is no biblical scale of sins, because they’re all the same to God. What you mean is “Isn’t it harder morally for you to create a life and then abandon it for others to take care of?” Wholesome love can be felt toward Satan. Are you saying God should be fine with that too? It angers Him, but He allows it. Those aren’t the same. Christ did not love people by avoiding their sins. If you read about encounters he has, you see that he was open to people, loving but not in spite of sin. He came to warn people against the lives they led, because he knew exactly what hell is like, and didn’t wish that end on anyone, even his crucifiers. He acted out of love; he reached into peoples’ lives and told them about their sins as seen to God. If you understand this, I doubt you’d be so open to a world of Jesuses. What you want is for Christians to ‘do their part’ and accept you for whatever you choose to do. That’s not what Jesus did; it’s not what Christians’ jobs are today. 031117 ... smurfus rex I vote for homosexuality as Nature's method of population control. Dr. Grant talked about a similar phenomenon experienced by certain species of frogs in Jurassic Park. And since it was said in a book, I have to believe it. :) 031117 ... Annie111 Well, screw God then, if that's who He turns out to be. I'm a good person, but I don't "know" Him, so that means I'm not getting into heaven? This sounds like some exclusive party or something. He sounds like a bit of a pompous ass. My God isn't much like that at all. My heaven is a place where good people are accepted. Period. I guess that just means I'm not a Christian. And I think you'll find that most of those people who consider themselves Christian don't really fall under your category either. I thought Christianity was about being a good person. I don't go to church, I wasn't baptized, and I don't subscribe to about 70% of any church or Bible's philosophy, so does that mean I can't know God? I still don't understand why homosexuality is a sin/temptation. What exactly is wrong with it? It doesn't hurt anyone. ANYONE. I guess I'm just pissed because apparently, I can't get into heaven. Shucks. :-) 031118 ... tyger Most of the recent studies done seem to point to some kind of genetic pre-disposition towards being homosexual, much in the same way as there is a genetic pre-disposition towards being a schizophrenic. That is to say: a majority of the variance can be accounted for by some kind of genetic factor. It is also clear that certain kinds of environmental factors also have a lesser impact (for instance, there is a correlation between socioeconomic class and rates of schizophrenia). It has NOT been shown as of yet that being exposed to gay people as a child makes you gay (although it probably makes you more accepting of gay people.) I believe in the power of the carefully done study. The evidence I have seen so far points towards causes that are essentially uncontrollable by the individual (even the enviromental factors) and therefore I do not feel it is appropriate or fair to consider homosexuals "bad" and discriminate against them. If the Christian Right (who seem to be the people really obsessed with this agenda) would like to conduct their own carefully done studies showing that _actual_ sexual orientation (not just public behavior) can be changed through the application of social pressure or conscious choice then I would be happy to listen to their point of view. 031118 ... tyger And another thing... I wish I could quote the authors of this one to you, but I don't know the reference off-hand. There was a study done to test the hypothesis that men who were the most homophobic were compensating for their own secret homosexual desires. They asked a large number of men about their beliefs about homosexuals, coded them for none to extreme homophobia and then hooked all the men up to machines that measured various types of physiological arousal (including genital arousal). They then showed them various types of pornography, including homosexual pornography. Anyone want to guess what they found??? :-) Higher levels of homosexual prejudice were strongly correlated with higher levels of arousal during the viewing of homosexual pornography. A correlational study to be sure, but an extremely interesting one nonetheless. Ever since I became aware of that research I always want to laugh when I hear men go on and on about "fags" or spout lots of bible verses about homosexuality. 031118 ... misstree i wouldn't be surprised if the sexual arousal was also linked to viewing an object of aversion in cases like that as well... kinda like scat, or at least the way that my brain wraps around it... aggression may have a part to play in there too, but fight or flight physiology tends to shut down the reproductive system and draw it in for safety. but the object of aversion arousal would very likely be secondary to the latent homosexuality arousal, especially when you factor in repression loops building to obsessions, and the fact that a person doesn't need to be homosexual to be aroused by such things (any degree of bi will do). 031118 ... scuzz Annie, if you don’t have a personal relationship with God, if you don‘t accept the love Jesus offers, you won’t. Period. That’s a good point though. He would sound like a pompous ass, but He’s offered the “party” to everyone. The responsibility’s with us. You’re also completely right about the amount of Christians that fall under ‘my’ category. Most people that attend a Christian based church don’t understand or accept what Christ has done. They see church as a way to let God know that they’re going through the motions, as if He can only see them Sunday morning (kind of like when our kids behave REALLY well around December). People have put up a gray wall between knowing and loving God, and going to church or being generous. Believe me, I’ve been down the road you’re on. Why should anyone care about what I choose to do in my private life? It’s not affecting them, so leave me alone! What you do in your private life WILL come out publicly, whether it’s drinking or sleeping around (I’m not even referring to homosexuality now). People will notice your patience, your goals, your general attitude. They won’t be whipped across the face if you drink too much, but you might develop a quicker anger, slurred speech, etc. Hurting others does not determine what is sinful, it’s what goes against what God intends for us. Tyger, you think I’m gay. Ender’s already tried that one. Did that study include Christians, or is that your own conclusion? You didn’t mention the men’s religions as having any correlation, so I’m not sure how you’ve included that… As misstree pointed out, I can guarantee that a study like that would have several other factors that correlate much closer than just verbal abuse. Off the top of my head; religion, amount of education (relating to any form of psychology class), how many homosexual friends each has, even how much stress on average each man feels. All of these affect attitude, or open mindedness toward issues like this. 031118 ... tyger An appropriately conducted study would include randomly selected subjects, some of whom might include Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans as well as those people who are addicted to pornography, never watch television, grew up on a nudist farm, eat cereal for breakfast etc... My point here is: when you randomly select subjects (which the vast majority of published studies do, at least in my field), any evidence you find cannot be reasonably attributed to individual differences. This is the whole point of the scientific methods used in the social science disciplines. A better argument against the findings of this study would be to point out (as the poster before you did very effectively) that correlational evidence cannot be taken as evidence of causation. One cannot truly say that the increased arousal experienced by homophobic men is not the result of a greater generalized sensitivity to disturbing sexual images rather than evidence of latent homosexuality. Learn something about research methods and maybe you'll make a better argument next time... P.S. I didn't call you gay. I just pointed out an interesting study on the subject. You went there all by yourself! :-) 031118 ... scuzz "Ever since I became aware of that research I always want to laugh when I hear men go on and on about 'fags' or spout lots of bible verses about homosexuality." So why would you want to laugh? Hypocisy is the only reason I see. Sorry : ) I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions. 031118 ... Annie111 I don't see being an alcoholic as equivalent to being a homosexual. Being an alcoholic is a physical and emotional disease that is detrimental to both the sufferer and those who surround him. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice which, as far as I can see, doesn't adversely affect anyone in the surrounding environment. Therefore I see no legitimate grounds to make it a sin. I think I do have a personal relationship with God, but I don't attend church and I haven't been baptized. I think that a lot of Christianity is overwhelmingly hypocritical and that inherent to much of its dogma are restrictions on pleasures humans should be able to enjoy on earth (ESPECIALLY regarding sex). But I agree with the fundamental core of Christianity, and that is one of love and acceptance and a general willingness to be kind to your fellow man. You can judge for yourself whether I'm a Christian. I don't really know myself. And I think God can judge whether I'm a good, genuine, loving person or not, because as far as I'm concerned, that is what you should have to be to get into heaven. That said, I do respect your opinions. I certainly do not understand them, but you are articulate and rational about presenting them. I don't want you to think that I'm launching a personal attack, it's just nice to have an intelligent argument now and then. 031118 ... scuzz Annie, you say that you're not sure about your faith, and you don't know what it takes to get into Heaven. If you want, we can e-mail back and forth more about this, because I love these talks too. I want to know what you think about all that's been said so far here, and where you're at in your life. Let me know. Here's what I have to offer in terms of "temptation". In Matthew 4, Jesus goes out into a desert, where he is confronted three times by 'the tempter' (v. 3), or 'the devil' (v. 5). The first time, Satan offers Jesus bread. After 40 days of fasting, taking some rocks and changing them into bread sure sounds like a plan to me. It's _tempting_. This doesn't hurt anyone, it doesn't seem like if he did it, people would notice any public change in him, so why doesn't he do it? Your relationship with God is between the two of you. Let me tell you though, God is more than that 30% of Christianity you agree with. Yea, Annie, I've met some idiotic people that judge others based on their relationships with God. Judgmental people have crap attitudes in the first place. (Let me know if I can e-mail you) 031118 ... shh uh. take it to "homosexual", people, and answer my damn question. sheesh. it's like you've never been on the internet before... hate_sex. love it? hate it? 031127 ... smurfus rex tried to...but some things, like tidal waves, move in directions of their own, whether you want them to or not. as for me, I don't have the kind of frustrations that have built up in me in order to need a hate sex session to release them. my roommate, on the other hand, has one about once a week. I know because I can hear them. 031127 what's it to you? who go blather from