religion_vs_philosophy unhinged buddhism_vs_nihilism 051223 ... unhinged faith_vs_reason 051223 ... kx21 Woman_nag vs Man_talk 051224 ... Twitch As to tip my hat off to some genious whom I do not care enough to look up... Philisophy is a bunch of questions that can't be answered. Religion is a bunch of answers that cannot be answered. 051224 ... lux i will not poke this bear. 080505 ... u24 ooh. Such a pokeable topic though. 080506 ... z is this a true dichotomy? 080506 ... sameolme Twitch's quote, wherever it comes from, would make more sense to me as: Philosophy is a bunch of questions that can't be answered. Religion is a bunch of answers that cannot be questioned. I for one, would love an answer, but was born to question. 080506 ... z yes. i agree. 080506 ... margaux reminds me of sophie's_world 080506 ... tourist My Basic PHILOSOPHY Is One Of Including The Counter Argument Into My World View. This Drives My Wife Crazy, But Seeing How Each Individual Comes At Any Circumstance From Their Own Unique Veiwpoint, Discrepancies Are Hardwired Into The System. One Absolute RELIGION May Be An Impossible Goal. Arguing Dogma Is Futile, And Often Dangerous. Semantics And Swordplay. I Try To See Where The Other Guy Is Comming From, But I Don't Convert To Any Creed Easily, In The End Though, The Truth Will Be Directly Experienced By Us All. No? 080506 ... z truth is a human construct. 080506 ... sameolme Apparently existence is not a human a human construct and true statements can be constructed about facets of existence. 080506 ... z an assertion: that would be philosophy. 080506 ... z aside from being apparent, existence is also ostensible. 080506 ... tourist The Only Existance "I" Can Truly Verify, Is My Own. The Same Holds True For You. This Could All Be One Helluva Vivid Halucination. 080507 ... They call me Truth If truth is a construct: 1. then do we create other constructs (such as religion) to help us understand or come closer to other constructs (such as truth) 2. science is not a vehicle to understand truth but to gain understanding. 3 Does it make truth any less important? 080507 ... z 1. then do we create other constructs (such as religion) to help us understand or come closer to other constructs (such as truth) yes. constructs are what help us to order, classify and utilize other constructs. please clarify what you mean by "come closer to". 2. science is not a vehicle to understand truth but to gain understanding. i am not able to parse this. please clarify what you are asking or asserting. 3 Does it make truth any less important? a truth is as valuable as we make it. for me, that means that it is useful. please clarify your use of important. 080508 ... dafremen see also: claptrap 080508 ... They call me Truth Clarifications: 1."Come closer" simply means "to approach." This comes with an assumption: that there is truth that can be approached but hasn't been reached yet. So what I was asking is: Do we use religion (a construct) as a way for us to reach truth (a construct)? 2. science is a construct. You say quite frequently that truth is a construct as well. If this is true,then science is not a vehicle to find other constructs (such as truth) because science is a construct used to gather observable data. Man-made constructs can't be observed in nature. Then science is not a vehicle to gain truth (a construct that exists in the minds of man) but rather, a vehicle used to gain understanding. 3. Important does mean useful or significant. Of course what is important is different to different people, but in this sense important means that it serves a purpose, a significant and useful one. 080508 ... Lemon_Soda Pray, do continue. 080508 ... dafremen You too? I thought it was just me. Thank God. Now if you'll excuse me, I should probably go somewhere and have this bullet removed from my brain. 080508 ... u24 I agree with z's implied opinion, that this is not a true dichotomy. I don't think that was at issue. I... don't really understand exactly what the topic is. 080509 ... dafremen Try looking at it with these 3D-prism glasses on. Not only does it make more sense..it relieves some of the brain fatigue involved with perusing this slap-fight. 080509 ... z Clarifications: 1."Come closer" simply means "to approach." This comes with an assumption: that there is truth that can be approached but hasn't been reached yet. So what I was asking is: Do we use religion (a construct) as a way for us to reach truth (a construct)? disclaimer: i do not use religion, so my answer is based on a presupposition that religion is an invalid construct (read as: it's usefulness is suspect). truth, to me, is (mostly) the product of science and inference. i do not approach it, i construct it. i do not seek truth, because, for me, it does not exist independently of the process of construction. truth, therefore, can be understood, described or added to, not approached. 2. science is a construct. You say quite frequently that truth is a construct as well. If this is true,then science is not a vehicle to find other constructs (such as truth) because science is a construct used to gather observable data. Man-made constructs can't be observed in nature. Then science is not a vehicle to gain truth (a construct that exists in the minds of man) but rather, a vehicle used to gain understanding. science is a way of thinking, a construct, as you say. as i stated above, truth is a construct that is created from observation and inference. establishing thruths is the goal of science. anything else is something other than truth (by definition). if we know something to be true, but do not know why, then the notion of truth that we are using must be examined. nothing is self-evident. all constructs exist in the mind (whether they are verifiably true or not). 3. Important does mean useful or significant. Of course what is important is different to different people, but in this sense important means that it serves a purpose, a significant and useful one. significance is a human construct. usefulness an important test of veracity. dafremen: if you have an argument to contribute, i welcome it. your snide comments that are empty of content are valueless to me. if you want to engage, bring it on, otherwise, please refrain. u24: i have been responding to this blathe point by point. the thesis is not clear to me either. it does look like a false dichotomy though. 080509 ... minnesota_chris I see philosophy wherever I look. I almost never see religion, although I do see people declaring jihad a lot. 080509 ... z i apply philosophy to much that i look at. you are right, religion does seem to be used as a reason for holy wars, of all stripes, quite a bit. 080509 ... Lemon_Soda Jesus wants me to love you so don't move...I'm having trouble aiming. 080509 ... dafremen It may come as no surprise to you that your opinion of my "snide comments" is pretty much irrelevant to me. Much as my snide comments are of minimal relevance to you. I mean honestly...did you really think that some "intellectual berating" was going to alter the way that I choose to express whatever I choose to around this place? You might as well have written a blank reality check and filled it in with some random amount. Anyhoo..at least you're picking up the pace at this blathe now. That should help alleviate the effect that the saliva generated by this slack-jawed, drool inducing cerebral jack off has been having on my keyboard. Thank you, for that at least. 080509 ... respectfully zeke actually, i expect nothing from you, but when you lash out, remaining silent goes against my nature. your occasional rudeness is legendary. i had hoped to avoid ever dealing with it. but, here we are. if, as your comments imply, these ideas are so beneath you, why bother. why not leave well enough alone? really, what does the expression of contempt gain you? 080509 ... Lemon_Soda *pops popcorn and puts his giant foam "Daf #1" finger on* 080509 ... dafremen You added the word "contempt" where it wasn't required. "Expression" would have been sufficient. so wants a big foam finger to wear on his head.. 080509 ... z are you suggesting that your words were not contemptuous? if so, then that seems like a good example of prevarication. 080509 ... dafremen Big word for a little name. 080509 ... dafremen P.S. Looks like you're catching on. So do you swat at the wind often? Or is it my dubious honor to be the cherry popper? 080509 ... They call me Truth Thank you for your response Z. As always your logic is understandable and thorough. It gave me a very great understanding of how you think. I am impressed as always. 080509 ... flippo oh back off daf. cant you see they're just trying to expand their minds? 080509 ... dafremen Expand their minds or their heads? 080509 ... z dafremen. you are bested. i have the high ground, simply by not engaging in your petty name calling. you are behaving poorly, and you know it. everyone here knows it. you cannot do any damage to me, only to yourself. your taunts and name calling simply bring more attention to your hubris. i suggest that you stop. you are only reinforcing your reputation. i remain untouched. 080510 ... florescent light hey now watch what you say to my dafremen Dafremen, I come to your rescue on my trusty stag with a sharp lance and titanium shield to ward off impulsive evil doers battling with their words my blather_armor will keep you safe from blather_foot soldiers we will put them in the dungeon with the fire breathing dragon however, you were a bit discourteous I do have a day job, you know takes up a lot of time putting on all this armour (and it’s hot in here) renting a horse (it's a lot harder than you might think to find a horse-for-rent in ny) and stealing some weaponry from the Met (it’s quite heavy) and don't ask about the fire breathing dragon (you can find most anything in the village) to come to your defense when you get yourself into a bind 080510 ... daf Oh lovely light. You know my motus operandi. You know what I'm doing here, if our friend z doesn't. Yes..I suppose sometimes this silly hobby of mine can be a bit discourteous. But tell me, cherished friend..isn't much of what entertains us these days little more than a rude imposition upon our minds that makes some laugh and others cry foul? I would refrain for you..and for a few others here..for the asking. I hope you know what I mean by that; what it means to me to remain free to play with the words as they pass through my ADD-addled brain. This z is a toy, only if he chooses to be. Only if his ego insists he be. Perhaps you know this...no..you DO know this..you're the insightful one..always have been. Thank you so much for arriving on time. Thank you so for sparing this brother a ride through the pepper mill of my pointless fancy. Nice stag by the way. Deer-Mart? 080510 ... zeke discourteous, indeed. disingenuous also to make light of that discourtesy. (even in the greenish florescent light of cronyism). your veiled references to some other purpose do not cancel the disrespect that you continue to perpetrate. a toy? is that your way of dismissing me? do you think that by repeating your baseless characterizations, that they will become more true? ego? who suffers from vanity? start with the man in the mirror dafremen. it seems like you could use a good look. 080511 ... dafremen Interesting. (I tried flo..oh well..let's carry on with this then, shall we?) "I have the higher ground." - zeke\ Oh...were we competing? I thought that was you. "disingenuous also to make light of that discourtesy." I see...so your fat head, full of intellectual fluff and stuff has been offended and the rest of us should bow to your indignation. Get in line behind the rest of humanity. While you may be a unique and special soul..your intellect and your preoccupation with it is as common as muffin tops on the strip. "your veiled references to some other purpose do not cancel the disrespect that you continue to perpetrate. a toy?" Oh I see..and somehow YOU being the almighty zeke with some fancy words and the attitude of wounded prima donna MUST have respect. The world and its spirals must mold themselves to your insecurities and your defensive, ego-driven reactions. See them. Recognize them. Know how they work. Pull them out of the box. Play with them. Yes..a toy. You're welcome to join the fun.. I must warn you though: Weebles wobble...but they don't fall down. "is that your way of dismissing me?" Banish the thought from your pretty head. I'd never dismiss you. Not when there's so much more fun to be had here. "do you think that by repeating your baseless characterizations, that they will become more true?" They're already true. No need to make them more so. If they are baseless, it is because they are based on your words which mean nothing, say nothing and tell me everything I need to know. "ego? who suffers from vanity?" You do. I believe I stated that quite clearly in my response to flo. Are you as hard of reading as you are soft in the head? "start with the man in the mirror dafremen. it seems like you could use a good look." Admittedly I didn't comb my hair this morning and could use a bit more sleep to clear these bags from under my eyes. Good point. Hopefully I'll be looking better next time around so that you can pout in the face of a more well-groomed me. Moment of zen: I'm writing. That's all. Accept it..or don't. It's all the same to me. This is fun. 080511 ... Lemon_Soda *CRUCNhcrunchcrunch* You guys are great. *munchCRUNCHmunch* 080512 ... z look. you can insult me or you can hear me. i am simply asking you to be less rude. live and let live. i have already said that i am interested in engagement. i would rather argue with you about substance than style find that insults usually say more about the insulter than the insulted. smart people talk about ideas, average people talk about things and stupid people talk about people. 080512 ... z fixes his typo look. you can insult me or you can hear me. i am simply asking you to be less rude. live and let live. i have already said that i am interested in engagement. i would rather argue with you about substance than style. i find that insults usually say more about the insulter than the insulted. smart people talk about ideas, average people talk about things and stupid people talk about people. 080512 ... dafremen It seems that your head is being particularly hard on you. Why don't you have a nice cup of te_de_manzanilla? This isn't a hard concept to wrap one's "smart" head around: on a site dedicated to free expression, no one owes it to you to stop expressing what they will because your sensibilities don't like it. It's REALLY a get over yourself sort of thing, man. I'm here because it's the only site I know of that's TRULY dedicated to freedom of expression. And I express myself sometimes by responding to things I see here..or in the world..or..if folks insist on engaging, in their words as they flap their gums to convince me of a decision they've made about how things should work..that really isn't their decision to make for me. If you didn't seem somewhat coherent..and occasionally straining at the threshold of insight, I would expect all sorts of stupid reactions to this simple idea: 1. Continuation of what you see as intellectual back and forth, and which I view as being the wall against which a ping pong ball bounces..thinking it is affecting me perhaps? 2. A retaliation of revenge to "show me how it feels"..in which you start spamming my blathes under your own name or various pseudonyms. Completely oblivious to the fact that..I'm not focusing on how any of this feels. I'm just watching your words now..chuckling with anyone that's in on this inane cockroach race we have going on here..and typing whatever comes to mind..with no effort or emotional investment whatsoever. Just expression of whatever pops into my mind to say...mostly just to play with the words. Sticking the occasional insult in there only serves to keep your ego stirred and reacting...and thus provides the netertainment with more material. The minute you stop reacting..the show is over..sniff. : ( Once, and hopefully..again..it's not a difficult concept. I'm sorry you've behaved in this foolish, reactive manner for so long that you think it's "required" of you. Not here it isn't. Here it's just plain foolishness sometimes. (See..I'm really the mirror here, silly. But your mighty, mighty intellect is offended by that notion and finds it demeaning. Tough shit..your perception of reality is waaaaay off. Does that really surprise you so much?) 080512 ... z i have been very clear about how i see things. i am not satisfied, but have no expectation of being so. i think you are rude, arrogant and obstinate and that you probably pay the price for being so every day. but that is all relative. have a nice day, roger. this show is over. 080512 ... dafremen Awww. Bummer. Back to poetry and political rants for a bit I guess. Sigh. 080512 ... dafremen And that..dear friends..is the reality, more often than not of these discussions of "religion and philosophy" that involves "Man is God" statements like: "truth is a human construct" or "I think therefore I am" or "prove that you exist." It's a trite exercise in egos and intellects arm wrestling for "higher ground" and to "prove their point" or..in some very base cases...an opportunity to posture and judge the relevance of another's way of thinking..or being. (of course, the irony of this blathe in relation to that statement is certainly not lost on me. see also: hypocrisy) Please come again if such an opportunity should present itself. I hope you enjoyed and continue to enjoy the show..or that you change the channel when you don't find it so appealing. 080512 ... z my discussion on the topic of this blathe is not dependant on, altered accurately portrayed by roger dafremen's summation. i think his true motive is clear. it seems that he wanted to bully others into silence. i am not ready to stop my engagement with anyone who is interested. ironically, i did not start this blathe, and i was trying to understand it's point myself. roger's opinion should not deter anyone's participation. it won't stop mine. i hope it won't stop yours. 080512 ... z fixes his typos again my discussion on the topic of this blathe is not dependant on, altered by or accurately portrayed by roger dafremen's summation. i think his true motive is clear. it seems that he wanted to bully others into silence. i am not ready to stop my engagement with anyone who is interested. ironically, i did not start this blathe, and i was trying to understand it's point myself. roger's opinion should not deter anyone's participation. it won't stop mine. i hope it won't stop yours. 080512 ... dafremen Tee hee. Gotcha! Oh man you're priceless. : ) Hold on..I've got to get ready to cheer a very weary soul up during her lunch break. I'll be back to play with you some more in a couple of hours. (Don't think that your offering yourself up as the proverbial kickball again isn't much appreciated. Thank you. Your precociousness is precious. Fixing those typos awww..mustn't make mistakes. No chinks in the armor now.) : ) 080512 ... dafremen Let's go through the scenario of a normal response to the trivial distraction you're engaging. First off let's assume that your purpose here is to express yourself..and not to dominate..posture or otherwise assert your ego through your intellect. If that's the case...one would expect something along the lines of an exchange that might go something like this: z: I feel this way about this subject. random person: well my feeling is this way. another random person: you're both ridiculous and this is the most inane boring crap I've ever read. (ie. some stranger driving by..flipping you the bird..perhaps just as a lark. Some folks are just punks like that.) z: well, yes..random person. I suppose that's a good point. Have you thought about what it would mean if blah blah blah..yack yack as well? random person: hmm. that just doesn't seem to make sense to me. Why would such and such blabbity blah blah blah? that same asshole that commented before: Good lord...is this drivel ever going to end? (Apparently our random commuter decided to drive around the block) z: Well, in my opinion..it might be because this that or the other. And maybe even have something to do with the presence of a certain amount of watchamacallit in man's basic desire to thing-a-ma-bob. random person: Perhaps you're right. You've given me something to think about. I'm gunna (clever jokey, somewhat familiar parting words.) Here's what we've got though. A strange response: z: I feel this way about this subject. random person: well my feeling is this way. another random person: you're both ridiculous and this is the most inane boring crap I've ever read. (ie. some stranger driving by..flipping you the bird..perhaps just as a lark. Some folks are just punks like that.) z(totally oblivious to his supposed purpose..which was expressing his thoughts on the subject at hand): hey! you rude obnoxious jerk! (looks like zeke has spotted what he was looking for...a chance to puff up his cerebral feathers and engage someone in public to establish his dominance.) How dare you speak to me in that manner? You arrogant, pointless little person. same random asshole(totally getting a kick out of having found one of those posturing assholes that use their intellects like elephant seals butt bellies): You're a froob! I'm just expressing myself. z: Your expression is rude..you are arrogant and should know when you are beat. (meanwhile the reality of the situation should be screaming: this has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Why are we even paying any attention to this asshole? But see z's purpose wasn't simply expression. It was a certain insidiously ignored passive-aggressive form of expression that basically amounts to a cock fight.) random a-hole: you're a toy. This is a game. z: blah blah blah a-hole: This game goes on for as long as you react. z: I am done..the game is over. a-hole: He's not done...watch this..I'll just make another strong opinionated statement that ridicules him and he'll come trotting back to RALLY THE TROOPS AGAINST THE CENSOR, THE RUDE BULLY AND THE NUISANCE. z: DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THIS CENSOR..THIS BULLY. RALLY AROUND ME..FOR I WILL NEVER STOP. HE IS A NUISANCE WHO I AM IGNORING.(Even though, in case you didn't notice, the entire subject of that blathe is the random asshole; z's opinion of and intended reaction toward that asshole. He's not ignoring anything. Looks like our Ezekiel the Elephant Seal's poor stubborn pride just won't let him let go. His donkey is riding his ass hard folks.) random asshole: heh heh heh sucker. Thus begins Act II. And it might get dumber depending upon ol' zeke..be sure to stay tuned! Hey there zeke...I see you. (Ordered X-Ray specs from the back of a magazine.) 080512 ... Lemon_Soda *goes to the bathroom, stops by the concession stand for some Milk Duds and heads back, casually observing to noone inparticular that LS wishes political debates where this entertaining* 080512 ... . pepper mill indeed. well done. 080513 ... u24 wow daf, looks like you found what you were looking for - a chance to fluff up your anticerebral feathers ;) 080513 ... jane zing! 080513 ... daf I do enjoy puffing them out once in awhile. Ever since 80's hairstyles went out of style I've had nothing to use my feathering brush for. 080513 ... florescent light I think the topic of this post threatens you, mr dafremen, so you sabotaged it. there was a lot more I wanted to say but I deleted it this whole argument has unhinged my delicate libra balance 080513 ... sameolme Limpid, after an afternoon of passion, Satchel resumed his exquisite illumination of the sacred text. He made sure that Newtons treatise on the heavens was amply supplied with angels intimately entwined with the opening letter of every paragraph. 080513 ... sameolme how bout He tenderly entwined the first letter of each paragraph with a nubile angel. Newton will be well pleased. The heavens will be revealed to mankind and gush forth with perspicacious blessings. 080513 ... dafremen You misjudge me flo. I walked into this blathe and saw a pattern of pointless posturing. So I engaged it to see who I was dealing with. Sure enough..that's what it was. If anyone has an opinion to express about religion and philosophy..by all means. What's wrong with that? 080513 ... roger jr i'm right, i'm right, i'm right all the time i'm going to write a crappy song and make it rhyme i spend all my time pointing out your flaws but my free expression is what i call my cause 080513 ... u24 what's wrong with pointless posturing? isn't that what blather is all about? 080514 ... dafremen Nothing wrong with pointless posturing. Nothing wrong with drawing it out and shining a light on it either. It's all expression..and so I type what comes to mind..in this case, it was a soliloquy to roger jr. over there. (Quick guess: hi zeke!) In the end..it's the netertainment value of it. Sometimes I wonder if there is a point to any of these things I do. Most of the time I'm aware that there isn't. I'm just jumping into the pool of pointlessness..and swimming in my own direction. I love the psychology of it. I love the fun with words. I love the chance to slalom around arguments and dictates of how I should respond. I love the chance to inspire people to run to the concession stand..to pull their personalities out from behind their words..whether consciously or not. I love the chance to view the words in a different way. To respond to them in my own way. That is how I express myself sometimes. I love pulling a glimpse of some hidden piece of reality out from behind the veil of impression. see also: protecting_the_cops 080514 ... unhinged it isn't hard to unhinged our delicate libra balance i got into a drunken fight at the bar last night because some ass was scoffing at the thought that we make our own destiny. i was tipped over into willful anger until my friend told me to let_go and chased him away. religion shouldn't be discussed with strangers anyways and then add to that alcohol and argument is sure to follow. 080514 ... u24 "religion shouldn't be discussed with strangers anyways" quoted for truth 080514 ... dafremen Let our treatment of others testify to our religion. 080514 ... florescent light religion shouldn't be discussed with family either, at least not in my case 080514 ... z smart people talk about ideas, average people talk about things and stupid people talk about people. 080515 ... sameolme "people" is an idea 080515 ... daf No need to repeat yourself z. I get it. You have a point to make. : ) 080515 ... Lemon_Soda Can the Ideas we discuss include People and Things? 080515 ... z i was not roger jr (sorry to disappoint you) 080515 ... dafremen You'll always be roger jr. to me. ; ) 080515 ... z and you will always be leto II to me. 080515 ... dafremen : ) clockwork 080515 ... z elevated estimate of efficacy. misplaced interpretation of significance. 080515 ... They call me Truth I have something to ask you daf. I have read many of your blathes and I find them appealing and interesting. Though i dont agree with everything you say, your words give me the impression that you are a thinking man that wants to bring people together. Your ideas are often very intriguing. But what i find curious is that you spent so much time on this blathe taunting people. I know you are exercising your freedoms, but I wonder what is the purpose of taunting people in order to challenge them or cause them to lash out. How does that help you get your point across? How does that perpetuate your thought process of bringing people together? Does it even serve a purpose at all? Why would you want to create dissension? I dont know if you continue to taunt people to show that you dont care what they think and i figure that it doesnt matter to you how your actions take away from your intelligent words, but i am really curious as to why you do these things. There is so many useful and beneficial things you could be doing with your freedom instead of toying with people and engaging in battles to show who can be more clever. It seems to me that if you wanted to truly do the things you preach about, you would lay off people and make yourself an example of the things you speak about. Love, development, growth, freedom liberty. I have heard you speak about all these things. How does taunting create development in yourself? Or do you believe that you should force development in other people by taunting them? I mean no disrespect. I am just curious about your motives. 080515 ... roger jr exactly (minus sentence two, however). 080515 ... unhinged wouldn't be the first time someone has pointed out daf's lack of ( tact ) 080515 ... dafremen I think it's about the eleventy-third time. 080516 ... dafremen I can't help it. Every once in awhile it's fun to organize a public chiding. : ) 080516 ... Lemon_Soda MAYBE daf has a "life" and blather is just for fun. 080516 ... They call me Truth I am not sure if you actually answered my question. Once again i mean no disrespect and i really would like an intelligent response. This is not to judge but to understand you better. I think looking at what a man does for fun indicates something significant about that man, something very telling. When I see a man who loves to talk about growth and development and finds great pleasure in chiding people for fun, i see a profound contradiction. But we are all contradictions arent we? I figure your chiding really doesn't serve a purpose, to you or anyone else, other than pure entertainment. But i wonder what pleasure comes from bringing people down for the sake of entertainment and doesn't it make you look at yourself differently to find so much pleasure in it? What part of your humanity are you feeding? 080516 ... u24 I think the key diffence between religion and philosophy, at least between the religions and philosophies that I've witnessed, is that a philosophy is an organic, changing entity, that is willing to be contradicted, whereas a religion is static and dogmatic. If a religion presents a theory, and someone points out a problem, the religion will not offer a mechanism for that conflict to be resolved. If a philosophy presents a theory, and someone points out a problem, the philosophy will happily adjust itself by either modifying itself, or countering the problem. religion is founded upon preaching, philosophy upon discussion. religion is one-way, philosophy is interactive. they often try to acheive the same goals, but they have different approaches. 080516 ... They call me Truth Yes, that is the key difference between the two. Because philosophy is based on discussion it is more likely to achieve the goal of greater understanding than religion would be; philosophy can adjust itself to incorporate more understanding than religion can. But there is another difference i think. Religion is suppose to be, at least in my opinion, a sturdy foundation, which in the opinion of many, should not be questioned in order for the foundation to stand. Religion is suppose to be rigid for that reason. It is suppose to be an unquestioned foundation, whether or not this is useful is a matter of opinion. Religion is required to provide answers, answers that are sturdy and static so that there is little wiggle room. Philosophy on the other hand is based on questioning. Answers are not expected to come out of philosophical pondering, but rather more questions. These questions are used to expand ones understanding, not as a basis for a sturdy foundation. This is the great difference between the two. They dont have the same purpose. One is for the inquisitive individual and the other is for the stability seeker. This is not to say that they dont have other purposes. This is just my individual perspective. 080516 ... daf "Because philosophy is based on discussion .." A bit presumptuous don't you think? Philosophy is based on interaction. Both with the exterior and the interior. Discussion is simply a form of interaction. Step it up people. We might actually get this blathe on track after all. Dern. 080516 ... dafremen "One is for the inquisitive individual and the other is for the stability seeker." Bullshit. Some find stability in the rituals of religion. Others wrap philosophic claptrap around themselves like a shield of protection. Some seek answers in the keys hidden behind the symbolism of religious ritual. Others find it in the process of interaction and reflection that we call philosophy. Most folks do a bit of both without knowing it..some "religions" are not known by that label. Dogma, dogma, dogma...sigh. 080516 ... They call meTruth I was speaking in generalizations, i did not intend to capture the entire human race under my generalizations. 080516 ... daf If you think you have the answer..it may only indicate that you've stopped thinking. If you think that you are right..it perhaps only serves as a remind of your lack of momentum in an ever-changing universe. Who are YOU to question the ways of the world that made you? Who are you to do anything but witness its unfolding? 080516 ... Lemon_Soda WORD *taps chest with foam 'Daf #1' finger* 080516 ... They call me Truth I do agree with what you are saying however. People do interchange between the two. But i do not understand what you meant by dogma. What were you referring to? And in terms of discussion and interaction, our difference there is only a matter of semantics, and secondly, my response was towards u24's statement about discussion and philosophy. I find both very interesting however. Religion and philosophy are both ways of looking at the world, among many other ways of seeing. If a person is seeking to understand people, they can appreciate both for what they are and what they are not. They have their limitations as well as their benefits. 080516 ... They call me Truth Oh wow, you responded to me already. I am no one to do anything. I simply do as I choose. But thanks for the feedback. 080516 ... They call me Truth One thing i was thinking about recently is the argument for the existence of God. Many people argue that God has to exist because the physical world had to come from somewhere. It had to have a creator. But why does it stop there. If everything in existence had to have a creator, then why not God? Why would God NOT need to have a creator as well? A while back a guy told me that the universe is made of eternal particles. He was an atheist. I had asked him where the particles came from in order to cause the big bang. Matter is neither created nor destroyed. So where would these particles have come from? Where did the space to hold the particles come from? He responded with the above statement: The particles are eternal. I wondered...if he could believe in eternal particles, why couldn't he believe in an eternal God? If particles were just in existence then i wonder why they would be there in the first place. And then i hit a wall. Because i can't seem to wrap my mind around the infinite. Somewhere in the infinite space of eternity, eternal particles caused a big bang (this is only according to this guy's theory)? Or, somewhere in the infinite space of eternity, God created the universe. Either way there is a problem to me. God had no creator or reason to exist in the first place. There was no catalyst, no cause to his existence. And it is the same if you try to think about this guy's theory of the universe. There is no reason for eternal particles. There is no cause, no purpose behind it at all. I do not know what to do with the absence of intent here. I dont know. I just got into a weird rant. Does anyone have a thought process about this? 080516 ... Lemon_Soda I don't see much of a differance between religion, philosophy, science or anybodys thoughts or beliefs on anything. Too me, they arn't seperate things but different parts of the same. I see alot of differances between the way people ACT...but thats not what we're discussing. 080516 ... Lemon_Soda Truth: You are trying to comprehend "infinite" and "divine". These concepts, by their very definition, are unfathomable to the human mind in their entirety(if such a word applies). 080516 ... They call me Truth LS, when you say different parts of the same thing, what do you mean? I would say that they are all different perspectives of how to view the world. Is this similar to what you are saying? Yes i am trying to understand these things. And whether they unfathomable or not does not deter me from trying. I really dont expect to find definite answers. Everything is subject to opinion and belief, but i do like the challenge of thinking about such things. I dont think i would ever stop. I think to label something as impossible to comprehend is just copping myself out of an interesting subject of inquiry. 080516 ... daf And here I thought we might get out of this hamster wheel.. 080516 ... z you need not stay. 080516 ... z i'm sure they can get along fine without you. 080516 ... dafremen Zekey likey his "speaker of the house" hat doesn't zekey? 080516 ... z not at all. i speak for myself. 080516 ... They call me Truth you never really addressed my question daf 080516 ... dafremen Ok..I suppose I could address your question if you answer mine: Where your hands on your hips normally or in the backwards orientation when you blathed that last time? : ) Do NOT eat too much pasta. 080516 ... They call me Truth NO it wasn't. You are mildly amusing. I like pasta. Now. Perhaps you can give me an intelligent answer to my question. 080516 ... dafremen Enjoy the show and stop taking everything so literally and seriously. Only a fool chases butterflies when he could fly himself. There are realities beyond communication. We all know this at some level. The closer your approach, the more difficult the simplicity is to communicate. Be an artist not a doctor. Be a philosopher not scientist. Be a poet, not a politician. Be a gifted organizer rather than labeled as a priest. Be the wind but do not tame it. Be the song but don't orchestrate it. Taste the air and walk away from the stale scent of pickled brains and socratic caca. 080517 ... roger jr Be the asshole, but don't own up to it. 080517 ... They call me Truth You still haven't answered my question. Enjoy what show? What am I taking literally? What am I taking seriously? What assumption are you making of me by drawing those conclusions? Why are you avoiding a simple question? 080517 ... dafremen Yawn. Time to kick this blathe in the pants. 080517 ... dafremen For the "subtlety challenged": 1. The show that's streaming into your eyes, nose, mouth and skin..c'mon now..you can do better than this. 2. So far everything I've typed, apparently. You and the zekester. Why am I spoonfeeding this to you? 3. See previous answer. Avoid redundant questions: listen to yourself. 4. I'm assuming that you are asking something outside of you to change its gyrations in order to satisfy your need for things to be some specific way..including "rational" "intelligent" and "direct" as opposed to evasive..and or cryptic. What's your problem anyway Nazi boy? 5. I didn't avoid the question. You just didn't care to read the answer carefully enough to even understand that your question had been answered. To may have a tendency to skim the surface of things while appearing to delve deeply into them. I can live with that..why can't you? 080517 ... They call me Truth 1. I asked questions to make sure i drew the right conclusions. It has nothing to do with being dense, but an effort to not misinterpret what you were saying. Your responses are interesting. I have never made a personal attack against you, only stated what you yourself have admitted to doing and asked you why you do it, and how does it fit into your set of beliefs. I realize that you are doing what you do for the mere thrill of it, to piss people off, to get under their skin, to create annoyance and irritability. And i also realize this is fun and a show for you. I was curious as to how it helps your growth and development or how it helps the growth and development of humanity. But apparently, it doesn't. Its meaningless. It is just something to do. Its fun. This was not suppose to be a match of wits. For that reason i have not decided to "entertain" the insults directed at me. I don't share the same disdain for you as many people do here. I actually find intelligence and heart in the words you put down when you are not taunting and insulting people. It was an attempt to get to know you better without drawing unnecessary conclusions about you. Yes i was hoping you would be direct with me. You have made many assumptions about me thus far. Most wrong but also amusing. 2. I suppose only you are the only one that can answer why you are spoonfeeding me. 3. I can see why you think i am taking things literally, because I am. But seriously? i believe you made a profound assumption. Curiosity is not always a serious matter. The fact that you used the same answer to answer both my questions only shows your own redundancy and your incapacity to keep up with the momentum of the ever-changing universe. 4. Yes you are assuming and badly. 5. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought you would use it to show that my interpretation of the answer was wrong. Yes i was hoping you would be more direct. This does not change my respect of you as a human being, no matter what you choose to do for fun or amusement. 080517 ... dafremen (bats eyes.) Do go on. 080517 ... dafremen (grinning)did it REALLY annoy and piss anyone off? And if so, WHY? 080517 ... They call me Truth You responded quicker than I expected. Z seemed very annoyed and pissed off. Didn't you notice? I have no reason to go on. I have said what i wanted to say. 080517 ... They call me Truth Why do taunts and insults annoy and piss people off? I believe you can answer your own question. 080517 ... daf You're absolutely right..I can. But can you? 080517 ... It will eventually get bored Ignore it. 080517 ... They call me Truth But yes I can answer the question. People get pissed off by insults and taunts because people have problems dealing with negative attacks against who they are. People feel like they should be respected. People are insecure. People have emotional issues. People are sensitive and take things to seriously. People are human with human thoughts and feelings that insults threaten. There are a million reasons. Another interesting question would be: Why would a person want to insult and taunt people for entertainment? 080517 ... dafremen Hmmm...maybe people shouldn't walk around interacting with people until they've taken care of these defensive reactions to perfect strangers and their words? Maybe folks should stop pointing to everything outside of themselves as the source of their problems. Maybe everyone should stop assuming that strong words are always insults and use their reactions as guideposts to finding the source of their pain. Maybe Brother_Ray knew what he was talking about..and Brother Sandpaper is our friend. Maybe strong words evoke reactions for many reasons. Not the least of which might be getting to the heart of religion..philosophy..who we are..and how we've been hurt. 080517 ... u24 "Who are YOU to question the ways of the world that made you? Who are you to do anything but witness its unfolding?" but don't you see? I *am* the world unfolding. 080518 ... daf Well of course. ; ) It's been something to see.. 080518 ... sameolm Here at the religion Vs philosophy semifinals; assumptions, assertions, and all manner of mannerism are flying at a expostential pace. Wait! The solopists just hurled a hunk of hubris at some dogmatising Episcopalians. Where's the ref! This is outrageous! A clear foul and no referee in the ring to call it. 080518 ... sameolme Well, that's a first. I misspelled my own screen name. Maybe I'll just stop vowing to proofread and simply bear witness to the glorious unfolding of this non resolving, irrationally exuberant life. 080518 ... They call me Truth I figured that list of reasons would spur a speech from you. But my question: Isn't it just interesting why a person would taunt and insult people for fun, for entertainment, for pleasure? You see, daf, my interesting friend, there are a great plethora of interesting questions and reasons for things. I find it interesting that you would get stirred into a speech thats whole focus is OTHER PEOPLE. "Hmmm...maybe people shouldn't walk around interacting with people until they've taken care of these defensive reactions to perfect strangers and their words?" Why should they? Why can't they take offense to insults by strangers when you can go around insulting strangers? "Maybe folks should stop pointing to everything outside of themselves as the source of their problems." They do, don't they? I happen to agree. But maybe, and this is just my thinking, you should be more concerned with the reasons for your actions. "Maybe everyone should stop assuming that strong words are always insults and use their reactions as guideposts to finding the source of their pain." Assumptions? DO you make assumptions? DO you think you are providing a service to these people? Finding the source of their pain? How do you know any of this? Aren't those assumptions? Why are you so fixated on the reasons of other people, while at the same time suggesting that they should be fixated on themselves? 080518 ... z messianic_complexes 080518 ... dafremen And on and on it goes. The gyrations of a mind intent on blood. But no blood in sight. No reason to be found in the empty echoes of a skull insistent on cornering its prey. No reason there..nothing but netertainment and the random rustle of over-tumbled leaves. : ) The socratic caca..easily recognized by our "Tooth"ful subject has stirred some pseudo-intellectual response related to "Haha! So there you hypocrite"..I believe we've got us another contestant and Act IV is well under way. And the beat goes on... And the beat goes on.. Enjoy the show. 080518 ... They call me Truth hmmm...interesting 080518 ... u24 I don't really understand this: "Philosophy is based on interaction. Both with the exterior and the interior. Discussion is simply a form of interaction." I agree that philosophy involves introspection as well as discussion. but what other forms of interaction are you talking about? 080519 ... dafremen Hmmm..that's an interesting question. I suppose our interactions with nature might qualify, as well the nonverbal portions of our interactions with others. That'll do for a start I suppose. What is learned by observing the unfolding of of our circumstances and those around us is as valuable, if not more so than the words exchanged between us. Of course that assumes that we're actually paying attention... 080519 ... z http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philosophy 080519 ... They call me Truth Very interesting concepts. So it sounds like that is a more personal interpretation of what philosophy is. How does philosophy relate with nonverbal communication among peoples? How can one transform nonverbal communication into a form of philosophy? When you are talking about interaction with nature as a form of external interaction, what do you mean? Can you give an example of this in the form of a philosophical theory? 080519 ... daf I was with my friend Yoda. I told him that the book of Knowledge was written upon the face of Creation. He asked what I meant. Just then, a rabbit ran in front of the headlights of our car (which was parked) and something..coyote, fox, dog...I'm not sure..was chasing it. I said, "There!" "What?" "That rabbit..he was being chased by the fox or the dog or whatever." "Yea..so?" "Who is leading? The fox? Or the rabbit?" 080519 ... yoda I dunno..who? 080519 ... daf It all depends upon whether or not the rabbit loses his head. 080519 ... daf I was lying in the shower..zoning out.. I saw the droplets meandering down the sides of the tub. I noticed that the fatter the droplet, the more likely it was that it would fall. The more droplets that a drop took into itself, the fatter it would get. The fatter the droplet, the faster the fall. 080519 ... They call me Truth lol, that explains everything beautiful story by the way :) 080519 ... u24 "our interactions with nature" eh? as if we are separate from nature. but that's a side_issue. yes, I see thoses senses of interaction. yes. philosophy is interaction. 080520 ... daf Have you ever seen a child's eyes light up when he's given attention? Did you know that the birds and flowers in the fields respond the same..as do you and I? Ever wonder if perhaps the "purpose" to it all is to see it all? Appreciate it all? If our eyes are nature's own and if our distraction with our own creations might have become our crack addiction..yellowing our teeth, but one day strengthening our resolve to never return to this way..then perhaps there is method to this madness after all.. I don't know. It's all just chit-chat and flourish in the end..isn't it? Anyho0 just thought we could use a good interaction around here.. Thanks for the show gentlemen. Well done. : ) 080520 ... steve philosophy delivers suplex to religion religion is helpless 1, 2, 3... philosophy is the winner. 080520 ... fghio fghio 101114 what's it to you? who go blather from