triggering_spiders dafremen Any fans of spiders out there? They're amazingly versatile predators, with a passive method for locating, and trapping their prey. They use the information they receive from vibrations, to help them perfectly triangulate the location of their prey, without even seeing them. This keeps them from being seen, before it's too late. At that point, they pull their quarry in, wrap them up so tightly that they can't move, then inject them with poison, and wait for the inevitable treat at the end. I only bring this up, because I've seen several videos (links below) where Bill Gates smirks as he's mentioning the tragedy surrounding Covid. He (and Melinda) have been caught looking and grinning at each other, as he says macabre things. It made me think of how we came to find ourselves, at this moment in history; perhaps our last chance to get out of this trap, before they bind us too tightly to move. Their web? The economy. The legal system. Forced schooling. The vibrations? Data and techniques from our own children, now conditioned through schooling, who took interest in marketing, statistics, psychology. The vibrations which triggered the spider to pounce and start wrapping us up? It depends upon how far back you wish to go. This spider is a spider of many levels. Possibly it's first trigger, was the Rockefeller anti-trust suit in 1911. You'll watch history start to head in this direction after that event in particular. The Income Tax and Federal Reserve Acts of 1913 come to mind. The sinking of the Maine, entering us into World War 1 is another. (Rockefeller made his first BIG fortune off of the Civil War, and learned that he loved war, since he was too rich to have to fight it.) But there were other events which brought more legs into the spider's attack; a more frantic pace to it's movements: 1933 - 1963: The United States managed to keep the super rich from taking over the economy, by taxing them HEAVILY. During this period of time, their annual returns were capped at around 11%. Needless to say, they didn't like this. They began their movements toward their prey slowly at first..so as to get closer. I won't go into all of the details here but it resulted in the crime shows of the 60s, 70s and 80s. They were used to brainwash the public into supporting more police. Result: The "crime wave" brainwash coup led to an occupying police force of a MILLION people..all under the control of the rich. Posse Comitatus eliminated. 1992: The Ruby Ridge shooting. Along with the 1993 Waco massacre and the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, this signalled the beginning of unrest among conservatives..an early sign of populist upheaval. Result: The "drug wars" led to more cops with military grade weapons. (Note the attempt at a gun grab between 1997 and 1999 using "school shootings" as the excuse. Gun laws passed.) Bound up tighter, with less ability to fight back. (see also: second_amendment) 2001: As though an echo from the past, Microsoft's OWN anti-trust lawsuit. Big Bill mirrored Rockefeller's strategy completely, after the scandalous loss: He started a charity immediately, then started DONATING the money he had gained breaking anti-trust laws. With this strategy, he bought allies, good press, and repainted himself as a good guy in the public's eye. Just..like..Rockefeller. He was also able to start pushing more research into his new baby..a technology he invested in early when it first hit the market: mRNA vaccines. Result: Don't doubt for a second that Gates saw the lawsuit coming and MIGHT have had something to do with the distraction known as 9/11. He had enough money to buy ANYONE. Regardless, 9/11 led to the Patriot Act. Suspension of the Constitution under special circumstances. The creation of a new class of American with few rights: the DOMESTIC terrorist. (see also: eagles_and_wolves) Now ANYONE can be wiretapped. Any home can be invaded. EVERYONE could be interrogated or thoroughly searched for practically any reason what-so-ever: even just going on vacation. 2008: Banker and Big Three bailout. One of the biggest money grabs in modern history..until 2020. Used to retool in foreign lands and weaken American working class power further. Result: Less working class capital. Less land in working class hands. More people thrust into a poverty situation where they'll worry more about food and shelter than politics. 2009: Feeling the coming unrest through social media, polling, etc. It was time to start beginning the brainwashing and control related to "pandemics." H1N1..remember? The first FLU shots? Result: Large scale distribution of seasonal shots and the infrastructure to ensure widespread delivery. (Walgreens y'all. Free shots from the sociopaths!) A silken thread has landed upon our brains. Bound tighter. 2010: Occupy Movement. This is where it became obvious that the populist unrest was coming to a head. Time to start binding 'em up tighter. Result: The wealthy now knew they had us under control. Nothing came of Occupy and the police were obedient and crushed the protest after letting the plebs blow off steam. "Ok, you've had your tantrum. Get back to work, slaves!" Time to start wrapping them up. 2010 - present day: Pandemic after pandemic after pandemic. Disease scare after disease scare. Coincidentally, a new type of vaccine technology had been developed in the 90s and nearly perfected right around this time. It elicits an engineered response in the patients cells. It amounts to installing a biological app in the body's cells, which elicits any response they'd like, to just about any substance they'd like. you body becomes their biological playground. Remember I mentioned how Evil Bill invested in mRNA vaccines? Great technology..as long as you trust the person developing the vaccine. Evil stuff since you have to trust the "experts" like you'd trust a car mechanic, a barber or...a doctor. Result: Almost bound completely. Ready to be forced into taking whatever they want us to take, or lose access to all of the comforts they've gotten us accustomed to. Domesticated livestock is what we are, and it's time to cull the herd because: overpopulation and the resulting pollution. So anyhow, that's sort of why spiders came to mind y'all. Seeing as how I was a ward of the state, I know what it feels like to be bound up tightly, by a merciless predator too omnipotent to be stopped. Sure makes me glad that those 50 foot spiders, from the 1950s sci-fi movies, don't actually exist. I mean, except in the world of global politics. 210105 ... dafremen Video of Bill and Melinda Gates grinning, as they discuss a new wave of deaths. Plus Bill grinning in general at the idea of a global tragedy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KapX9Cnox3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woISSwVWu2w 210105 ... dafremen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUChdrL6Cd8 210105 ... epitome of incomprehensibility Alternatively, I could say that the conspiracy mindset is spider-like: imagining various factors as legs leading to a single centre. I think reality tends to be more complicated, though, and people less organized. Of course many people are going to be out for power and money. Of course billionaires are going to donate money to things to offset taxes and to look good in the public eye. And there's truth in what you mention. There are a lot of things about contemporary life that are detrimental and that we tend to overlook. E.g. the founders of Twitter, Facebook, Google, etc., researched ways to keep people on their platforms for longer. Too much screen time can be unhealthy, and a lot of the energy needed to maintain those sites puts a drain on the environment. But stitching together various legs can create a sort of zombie spider. Not everything is directly related. Not everything can be traced to a specific plan by a specific entity. Correlation doesn't equal cause and effect (quoting from the Book of Statistics, chapter 3, verse 16). Because, silliness aside, chasing "zombie spiders" can play directly into the hands of oppressors. Like those people storming the Capitol building yesterday, claiming the election was rigged. Their rejection of what they perceived as mainstream falsehoods didn't make them misunderstood geniuses. It just made them dupes, playing right into Trump's hands. I'm not saying you're like those people, Daf. But when people - you, me, anyone - stitch together zombie-spider conspiracies, we might be throwing out the baby with the bathwater (Mixed Metaphor courtesy of Epitome's Mixed Metaphor Services, Inc.). One example: the problem with "Big Pharma" isn't that they create vaccines and medications. The problems are more like monopolies and patents that allow companies to get rich off inflating prices for stuff, which can deny poorer people access to life-saving or life-prolonging treatments. ... As for real-life spiders, if I find one inside I'll trap it and let it outdoors...performatively calling it "cutie pie" if I'm in others' hearing. But I have an aversion to them crawling anywhere near my head. This isn't part of the metaphor, but you can use it to psychoanalyze me and tell me why I'm misguided. I probably am to some extent! I'm only human, like you (at least, I'm pretty sure neither of us is a zombie spider). 210107 ... dafremen First off, what a very thoughtful blathe. Being the sort of person who amplifies energy taken in, rather than just absorbing it, the sort of effort and care that you put into your words is always deeply appreciated and, has set a very nice tone for any response. Thank you. see also: world_of_rippled_water Here's my response: Please look up the top tax rates in the United States of America. That's probably the biggest smoking gun. Tobacco giants obfuscating the truth about lung, throat and mouth cancers related to their product for 50 years. Conspiracy or not conspiracy? What was the motive? To continue building profits at any costs, so they'd still be rich by the time the lawsuits came through? Who knows? It used to be a conspiracy theory..why waste time thinking about it? What about oil companies and their denial of climate change and other effects on the environment caused by dumping long-sequestered carbon and synthetic polymers into the ecosystem? Is that a conspiracy? What was the motive? *cue gentle sarcasm* If it's a theory about conspiracy, why waste time talking about it? We don't have conspiracies in this world. Only idiots see conspiracies everywhere. Coca Cola used to ship out thick, recyclable glass bottles. A deposit was charged (just like today) and when the bottles were returned, Coca Cola picked the old bottles up while delivering new bottles full of Coke. They then paid to wash the old bottles so that they could be reused. Their bottle washing facility had to be inspected by the health department once in awhile. It was costly shipping heavy glass bottles both ways, AND paying someone to wash them. But then..someone at Coke had a brilliant idea: What if instead of heavy glass, which cost a deposit and that you had to take back to the store..they used lightweight aluminum cans and plastic bottles to deliver your beverage? That would save SOOO much fuel that it would help the planet. And..you could just THROW it away. Oops. They weren't throwing them in the garbage. They were throwing them everywhere and the public was concerned. They wanted glass again. Ok, well Coke wasn't about to go back to glass with a public that remembered how well glass worked as a container. They'd lose all of that saved "shipping costs/bottle cleaning" money and then their stocks would go down. They weren't about to remind people that glass which wasn't responsibly recycled, ended up as sand again one day, without destroying the environment. And now Nairobi is swimming in the world's plastic bottles. Is that a conspiracy? What was the motive for that move? Was it profit over people and the planet? Is it not worth investigating because its a theory about a known profit-motivated conspiracy? Wait. I should say this a different way to trigger a different response (no offense, just something to ponder.) Is this not worth investigating because its a known conspiracy theory? Shall we discuss the honesty, integrity and caring nature of our governing authorities next? Or maybe if we examine who exactly funds universities, academics, brain trusts and tech innovation? What if you are super-psyched about physics? Could you crowdfund a 30 mile long super collider? If not, whose ass do you have to kiss to get a super collider around here? Let's face it..the kid's brilliant. He needs a super collider, because we like putting money into people whose minds tend toward the ideas that money is pursuing. If it looks like magic, the Wizard of Oz wants to buy it. The people need a constant rain of circus to go with their meager bread. The more meager the bread, the greater the need for extravagant circus. And let's not forget..horror shows are circuses too. Is it a conspiracy that "profit over people as a leadership strategy" has destroyed the planet and devastated the mental health of the human race? If you answered no to that question. Please go back and read the first blathe and realize how easily history is stitched together into a coherent picture without need of overt evidence. It's not the same as inventing "zombie spiders." I can imagine the missing piece of a puzzle fairly accurately. I can re-machine a missing part based only on seeing where it fits, to what it connects, and by logically deducing its specific function based on context and past experience. I don't need the part to be there. Is my belief in the existence of a part that can't be seen a theory? Isn't the wind evidenced by the tumbling of the leaves and the movement of the trees and the feel on my skin? Isn't the amazing decline of the American working class in all areas, reasonable evidence that the rich may have infested us like tapeworms? What would you do if you'd treated your workers like shit to make yourself and your children into demigods, when your history teacher had taught you that massive inequity results in populist upheavals by the working class? Is it a theory? Is it a conspiracy? 210904 ... e_o_i Thanks for the questions. A few answers: I don't doubt your mechanical expertise. Or your general puzzle-solving ability...e.g. I suspect you've figured out my silly alternate identity, or else why respond to me today? But maybe I'm wrong and that's just a coincidence! I'm very confident in my lack of confidence, it seems. Ah well. Let me try to tackle this. I didn't mean to suggest conspiracies don't exist. You gave three examples of conspiracies. Notice, though, that each one exists within fairly contained boundaries. It's harder to form a conspiracy in the first place with multiple actors and organizations. Not impossible, but less likely. Still, do I think the examples (oil, tobacco, Coca Cola) are connected to each other? Yes...thematically. I'll call this theme "profit motive overriding good sense and/or compassion." But this seems (to me) more of a recurring trait than a conspiracy. It's happened in many societies in many places with many people. I don't personally think that the idea of, say, the divine right of kings/queens to rule had a direct effect on, say, tobacco companies' decision to suppress info on the harmful effects of cigarettes. Maybe as a precedent, or a series of complex domino effects. But the commonality is in motive (greed, lust for power) rather than direct cause and effect. The part that I question is positing that shaky connections are certain. And that's not necessarily a property of any political party; I was talking with a friend last year who believed in a sort of reverse Q-Anon called True Anon: instead of the Democrats all being pedophiles, the Republicans were all pedophiles. I'm oversimplifying, of course. But it seemed questionable and over-simplistic itself. Now, just because I question some conspiracy theories that (to me) seem without basis, I don't think they're all harmful. But I DO notice a frightening human tendency to invent conspiracy theories that blame certain groups - especially those that have less power - and then to persecute those groups. Even when the aim is to go after those with more power, it often gets distorted, and random people get unfairly scapegoated. Case study: its_not_rocket_science. You write something, part of which I personally agree with - to each their own, as far as is safe; I don't think with masking, etc., we even need vaccine passport systems. Maybe that's an unpopular opinion too, but it seems like government overreach and annoying bureaucracy (no collusion needed for that). I don't agree that this vaccine does more harm than good, though do I know another person who won't take it and I understand their personal reasons, even if I question their choice of information sources... Personally, I had fewer side effects than predicted - just a slightly sore arm. But that's because I microdosed with complex chemicals first, mainly in the forms of food and air ;) Anyway, vaccination actually isn't my main point. Going back! You wrote something that COULD be interpreted under the broad umbrella of COVID-19 conspiracies. Now, what you wrote doesn't spread any particular prejudice or hatred. But then Anonymous Poster jumps in with a link taken from a site with a clearly anti-Semitic name. Do they know that the name is a dogwhistle for anti-Jewish prejudice? Maybe, maybe not. So Montreal Zoom Truther attempts to point out this fact, however clumsily. Again, I need to be cautious: looking for conspiracies doesn't inherently to prejudice, but there does seem to be a strong correlation that needs to be investigated further. At least, you might want to tell Anonymous Poster they're full of it, even if you'd lose an acolyte. Freedom of speech is also freedom to say, "What ARE you on about?" and "Even though you may flatter me, I don't really want you on my side." If you feel that way. And this got me thinking about which groups are the scapegoats of COVID conspiracy theories: not Jews, for the most part, and not Muslims, though blaming them as a whole was trendy in the past few years, even before 9/11 (settling in Europe means "invading" it, apparently). But yeah, a big target so far has been East Asians living in Western countries, who've been verbally and even physically attacked. And that on the VERY tenuous connection the Chinese government was being shady (and it was, even if COVID-19 was an accidental lab leak or simply a naturally occurring virus). Is that fair? Oh, sure, someone can tell people to go after Bill Gates. I don't doubt he deserves criticism. (I don't think he engineered the virus, but I'm not a fan of his computer monopoly). But when people find out they can't do much to him, *some* of them will lash out at someone less powerful. Another unfortunate trait humans sometimes display. So I guess we (including me) have to ask ourselves whether we're working to stop that kind of unfairness and misdirected blame, whatever other things we do or don't believe. 210904 ... e_o_i edits *doesn't inherently lead to prejudice (Trust me to post late at night; I need sleep. Goodnight, y'all.) 210904 ... dafremen The quick response was appreciated. Sorry mine took so long. Your identity isn't as important as your role. Kermit was Kermit. Ernie was Ernie. Neither was Jim Henson, because it wouldn't have been appropriate for the stage. Your eoi performance is appreciated for what it is. Anyhow.. Please take as much time as you need to answer the questions posed. Let me point out a particularly significant one: What would you do if you'd treated your workers like shit to make yourself and your children into demigods, when your history teacher had taught you that massive inequity results in populist upheavals by the working class? What solution would YOU engineer to avoid revolution this time? Especially when outnumbered 99 to 1? Does the history laid out in the initial blathe fit? What evidence is there that we've not been part of a long game played by the rich, (with nothing but time to plan their escape from populist ire..time to prepare..paid for by us?) What if you wanted to take it all and not have revolution/social overhaul make you give it up? With all of the free time, power, intellect and human labor available to engineer an escape from the inevitable..how would you do it? The point of my response was that profit motive(ie. the right to do what you like) and KEEPING those profits has always taken precedence over human lives among the "ruling class." Take the pyramids at Giza. We're to remember those who forced people to drag those blocks of rock, not the workers who dragged them. And now, the mighty mountain of human lives sacrificed is named after the person who gave not one fuck about their sacrifice..except as it glorified his own ambitions. Its_not_rocket_science to see the Groundhog Day pattern that's played out, regardless of whether the class system claimed God or money as the foundation of its power. Those pyramids at Giza were built on the same pretentious, self centered view of human-lives-as-Lego-blocks, that modern automobile industries are built on. How does that bode for ANY industry once the acolytes of greed begin to follow their heroes' examples? And how would you get out from under an "unwinnable" revolution you'd sparked..if you knew that it was deemed inevitable? Then please review the historical record and realize, we might've been playing out just such a scenario for over 100 years. I wonder if elitism is a thing. I wonder if elitists are a sort of club. I wonder if club member realize their common peril at the hands of non club members. I wonder if a well satisfied but rightly paranoid 1% might discuss it among themselves, and come to an agreement much more easily than 99% of a struggling humanity might. A prosecutor would have a VERY strong case that the rich are tying the hands of revolution in order to get away with their ill-gotten gains long enough for history to forget the crimes they committed to obtain them. Rockefeller Foundation (fossil fuels are destroying the planet. Rockefeller destroyed hundreds of businesses to dominate and empower that industry. He hated that the common people tried to control him with government. That's the historical record. So did Gates. He made an agreement with the government then completely ignored it. Go watch his interviews with prosecutors. His sociopathic nature and contempt for our only potential source of justice against the powerful, is pretty self evident.) And we're supposed to give benefit of the doubt, because why? Because our best interest lies in trusting proven sociopaths with profit motive on their mind? Is it a conspiracy? Is it a theory? 210905 ... dafremen Take the First Amendment, for instance. The very First one. Now homogenize the notion that it was thought to be of primary importance that the populace be able to gather and communicate with one another ..with what's currently being rammed down society's throat. That somehow, suddenly, distancing is a social act. And its cool to communicate through apps, phones and social media. That somehow adult human beings need to be preached to by those who have isolated themselves from society's thoughts and desires through their own elitist impulses. And the right of the 10% to rule the rest of the "juvenile populace" comes from where? And if these people are juvenile and uneducated, they are undereducated because of the decisions of the very leadership who led them to this condition. (Forced schooling's a thing. A shitty thing the way we're using it.) So was it all for --ease of rulership-- or better marketing position? Take your pick. It wasn't to improve the plight of those kids who didn't make it to the career day auction block, that's for sure. Maybe what they did can be explained away with: chronic 15 year olds buy lots of shit to impress their friends. Doesn't make it less of a crime, just makes it less of a conspiracy. Right? But then we see the assault on human interaction. Juvenile adults trust their parental authority figures to take care of the "boring stuff", like policy and creating laws. Juvenile adults look for aspirational figures to model themselves after..FOREVER. (Influencers anyone?) While the government, media and industry(owned by the 1%) finds its way into more and more of our conversations and gathers more information on our movements in the name of "security" and "crime prevention", rhetoric is pushed by the tech and medical sectors telling us how awesome it is if we stay tf away from each other, or communicate through apps..controlled networks owned by..yep..you guess it: the 1%. I wonder what happens if we become paralyzed at the thought of interacting in person and only interact through digital networks? Oh yea, the rich can shut down the First Amendment at will once we get like that. They own the networks..and the apps. No wonder they kept showing jars filled with pissed-on crosses and talked about the 1st Amendment as thought it were about the F bomb, instead of our ability to communicate with each other when elitists get too powerful. Distraction. This is a great article from MIT Technology Review: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/eliminating-the-human Speaking of distraction and dilution through rhetoric, what of Amendment Number 2? (Note how the neck hair of half the populace bristles when that term is used. Funnier still, so does the neck hair of the other half. That's what Machiavellian conditioning looks like at a distance.) Turns out we've been hearing about "home defense" and "hunting" for so long, we've been convinced to forget about its PRIMARY reason for being included in the Bill of Rights..right at the top. Or maybe we were spoon fed the rhetoric that "what is a gun going to do again tanks and missles"? Does that SOUND like a working class pep talk? Or an elitist mouthpiece trying to bluff his way into a white flag by the 90%? Supposedly, this Amendment was meant to give crooked politicians and other societal scheisters something to think about if they were going to rob good people and then entrench themselves behind the letter of law. If they can resort to might makes right, well by gawd, so could the rest of us if things got ridiculously unbalanced. So said the 2nd Amendment. As the Sufi Master in the donkey trainer story says: "When they won't listen, sometimes you have to get their attention first." And over the past 50 years, look at this crazy shit: We see the government increase it's private law enforcement army, upgrade its private firearms arsenal, resort more and more to drones and other AI-driven, automated killing while attacking the right of private citizens to own guns that aren't registered or that are powerful enough to be a threat. Paranoid rulers are usually like that. Gun seizures and killing off any vocal resistance are usually the first act of despots and dictators. Here's a thing we agree on: This could all be a conspiracy invented by madmen. The madmen could be people like myself who believe that the wealthy see us as chattel and therefore can't be trusted..ooor The madmen could be those who never minded screwing the human race, never flinched at body counts, never minded how grueling the labor became, because none of it was their cost to pay, only their path to being gods on Earth..a treasure they'd chuck a million human beings into a meat grinder rather than relinquish. Could be some random acts based in fear or misguided policy. But boy, it sure conveniently moves in favor of the rich and against the needs of the rest. Could just be greed. But if so, greed doesn't want revolution. Greed wants it all and never wants to pay the price for betraying humanity. It COULD be a conspiracy theory, OR it could be that history repeats itself. I'm going with "it's history repeating itself", because logic dictates that "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me for 10,000 years, shame on me." 210906 ... dafremen -"what is a gun going to do again tanks and missles"? +what is a gun going to do against tanks and missiles? Late nights, weed and the lack of a good education. : ) 210906 ... e_o_i First, apologies by being snarky by saying "acolyte" - as far as I know, Anonymous Poster went "well said, daf" and that does not a disciple make. But I don't think you addressed my previous question yet: Why do formations of real or imagined conspiracies (often? sometimes?) slide into excuses for discrimination? I'm not saying they all do, or that I have the answers either. Plus, I was rather scatterbrained in the examples I flung out, so here's one that tangentially relates to your discussion: some people claim vaccines cause autism. Doesn't have much factual basis, but let's put that aside for now and focus on the part of the message that goes, "Oh horror! Autism!" For people who claim to want to live naturally, why is a natural variation in neurological make-up so abhorrent? And is this fair to autistic folks?? Now, I'm not saying you agree with such a view, but think about how you'd deal with someone who said this. Would you point out that they're being unfair or just pat them on the back because they agree with you about vaccines? ​ But we're probably arguing at something to the side of each others' points. One of yours is that you don't trust billionaires. I'd say if you think they're all secretly collaborating, that's SOME kind of trust, one which I don't share. People aren't that cooperative. Proof? I *should* be one of these "elites" given that I've read Ulysses, clearly an elite thing to do, but alas, I have not been gifted a mansion yet. But seriously now. What does the artist who made "Piss Christ" have to with Bill Gates? At least the former appears to have a sense of humour. I don't believe Gates even has a morbid one - but then, I don't know the guy. He doesn't answer my emails. But let's take him as an example. If he's putting money into vaccines, we can look for a pattern: e.g. he also donated money for AIDS research. And the likely connection is...he also created AIDS for his own profit and it's part of his master plan to take over the world? Or he wants to make himself look good so that people will like him and NOT think badly of him for his stupid software monopoly? (There's some version of Word that needs a yearly subscription and...yeesh. It's like, "We made you pay once and once is not enough! You have to pay over and over again!") Off-topic, I know. I blame James Joyce, whose books cause ADHD. Anyway, have a good night, and try not to bring American constitutional amendments to an international fight ;) 210916 ... daf First off, thanks for continuing to observe the rules of courtesy which rational discourse requires. I'll do my best to reciprocate. P.S. I DESPISE the Socratic method of debate. So quoting your post pains me on more than a philosophical level. It's not discussion, just dissection. Anyhow. "Why do formations of real or imagined conspiracies (often? sometimes?) slide into excuses for discrimination?" Let me know sfter we go with our friends to a movie together and some are turned away for lack of a vaccine ID. What's a conspiracy? Is it that elitists have always pressed for more control over the working class and screwed them repeatedly so they can't be trusted? Or is that there are a bunch of stupid people who don't trust the first iteration of a new vaccine anymore than they trust the first year of a new car model? Those stupid fuckers. How could they not trust the people who have no respect for them and have screwed us pretty consistently since..well forever? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Especially for people who didn't pay much attention in history class. When it comes to autism, I'm pretty solid on my stance, so I'd like to paraphrase and spew..Can I skip the quote part please? 210916 ... e_o_i Of course. I never said you had to quote me. 210916 what's it to you? who go blather from