emem there is no god as far as i am concerned 050113
emem feel free to debate

open to spirited religious debate... no pun intended
minnesota_chris explaining God is like explaining wind to someone who hasn't been outside. Those trees are just moving themselves out there, never mind, never mind.

and it's spelled atheist.
missionary That was so funny, minnesota_chris!

But, the trees are not "just moving"... You see, they have evolved from oceanic organisms that grew on the coral reefs millions of years ago, where they would spend their days swaying back and forth trying to catch microorganisms.

They are simply behaving in alignment with their natural hunting/gathering instincts. (They are also trying to attract pollen from other trees so they can mate.)

Wind?! What a preposterous concept!
anne-girl i wouldn't want to believe in a god who wouldn't accept atheism 050114
oops *atheists, not atheism 050114
minnesota_chris I believe that a belief in God comes only from seeing God, in some way or another. And it's rare to see God. So if someone hasn't seen God, I'm not going to make them feel bad about it or treat them like their ignorant. They just haven't been as lucky as me. 050114
sameolme That seems reasonable Chris, and I would
like to take this opportunity to apologize to you and to all of the
reasonable people of faith that I may offend when I make light of religon.

I'm afraid, afraid that unreasonable zealots may destroy civilization in the name of their god. That is why I do it.
sameolme I guess it's relgion? 050115
sameolme how about religion? 050115
minnesota_chris bastards are everywhere. I think it says that in the bible somewhere. 050119
misstree but how do you know which God you've seen? 050119
minnesota_chris names names names 050120
stork daddy everyone talks about god, but no one is ever talking about the same thing. 050120
minnesota_chris that's because you're a cursed infidel 050120
stork daddy i don't know what you're talking about...i'm baptized...and for the god they taught me about, that's almost enough. 050120
emem um 050120
emem hey minnesota chris sorry about the spelling error i was in a hurry when i created this page...but, no one's perfect 050120
minnesota_chris hey that's ok. We're all just having fun here. That goes for you, storky, too. 050201
The Spork Meanwhile, I am pondering over the incongruity of someone trying to be both a pagan and an atheist, apparently unaware that atheism isn't just the denial of the Monotheistic, Judeo-Christian God/Allah, but the disbelief in ANY God or Gods or Goddesses.

I've seen and heard this around and about and it's been tickling my brain the same way that a piece of a popcorn kernel's shell tickles your throat when it gets stuck there.

It comes off as a case where The Having of The Cake and the Eating of It Too just seem so very highly unlikely
sameolme I solve the contradictions by assigning
each belief system a day of it's own.
pantheism- Tuesday
atheism- Wednesday
animism- Thursday
buddhism- Saterday
restism- Sunday
If any ism feels left out or needs more time, I can reserve a couple minutes for it Sunday morning.
Alex The idea of God is worthless, just like God itself. There can't be a God simply because of the way energies interact with one another in such a decentralised, unified manner. The existence of a God would simply fuck things up too much, and its job would destroy it outright. 'Nuff said. 070222
They call me Truth it all depends on how you view God. But i'm sure you already knew that. Why would i even say it then? I guess it gives me personal pleasure to come up with an alternative view, to size my self up against something alternative to my perspective.

God's existance is not proven or negated by my words, by my reasoning,or by my ego intent on proving another wrong.

It's fucked up to think of this world without one but it is also fucked up to think of this world with one.

But the way I see things is that we can't blame him for the choices we make. If He/She/It loves us unconditionally he cannot show favoritism and favor the good and the beneficial over the evil and destructive. That would be a condition to his love and indeed it was God who created them both. So he must allow, because of his nature, the actuation of both the evil and the good in our world until we are wise enough to see what is beneficial and what is not.

He cannot prevent the horror in this world as long as those who choose to inflict believe that it is beneficial. God must work with the will of all things.
pete we need to find a babble fish to prove once and for all that god does not exist.. 070223
:-) whats a babble fish? 070223
f Jesus knows, as him! 070223
whoops *ask* 070223
Pink Paint ...god.... otherwise known as gog. (its a secret)

i saw him, he lives in Manchester..

he sits on the edge of the road,

and yes he does have a white beard.
pete its a small yellow fish the eats sound waves and excretes neural waves that the host can understand as the direct translation of what the speaker said in whatever langauge he spoke in. when placed in one's ear it acts as a universal translator, the sheer utility of which proves that god does not exist because if god existed he need not prove himself, as that would undermine the requirement of faith.

for a better description please look it up in your local copy of the hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy
god word up 070223
They call me Truth Hey, i watched that movie. it was cool. 070223
They call me Truth How would God be disproven by a babble fish?

What is the big deal with God existing? Why so adamant to disprove his existence?
pete Even cooler is to watch the 80s/early 90s British TV version, and even cooler than that is to read the books, and even cooler than that would to listen to the radio broadcasts (if you can find them on line i'd definitely listen to them)... The proof of the nonexistence of God is in the second (or is it first?) episode of the tv series..

God, gods, who needs 'em anyways?
Thay call me Truth Hmm. i didn't know that there was so much. I thought there was a book or something.

well, hey you may be right there. Who needs them. Especially if you use them as a means to terrify people into submission.

But i still like the idea of God that i have in my mind.
pete If any god exists, then it doesn't matter what we believe, because it or they are real and govern us in ways that don't change with belief.

If no god exists, then it doesn't matter what we believe, because then divinity does not govern us and our beliefs do not change that fact.

Perhaps that's more of an agnostic answer, structure your mind as you wish.
. ultimately, there's no knowing either way (personal epiphinal/revelatory experiences aside) 070224
They call me Truth So it is pointless because belief does not negate the existence or non-existence of God.

Good reason.

But suppose your beliefs does matter?

Suppose they determine how you experience?

Suppose in understanding Your existence you gain a lot more than you think and you realize that God is not the control center, that you are not dictated by unbreakable laws and that you are far from a puppet in the hands of the universe?

Suppose it did matter, not because of some hell lurking at the end of life but because there is a hell that extends throughout eternity on all life shifts?

Suppose it does matter, not because of the usual explanation, but because in understanding LIFE and understanding SELF you gain control that you never knew you had, over everything, what then?

I suppose this could all be bullshit.

Bullshit is rather prevelant and it is spread like a plague.

But bullshit or not.

Would the name you give it make it less true or false in the reality of things?


i guess thats all i got.
hsg1437 your beliefs matter in proportion to the amount of courage you offer in believing your dreams.

learning to believe in your dreams, learning that your thoughts influence "things" is as beautiful as you 'ARE' consciousness_blooming_as_a_flower.

in love, we all bloom together.
. some things must be believed to be seen 070225
pete of course the way you see the world influences, well, how you see it and therefore your own actions, thoughts, ect. ect. I was thinking more 'universally' (that is, with a point of reference beyond humanity, which of course is impossible)..

They call me Truth I guess thats where things will get muttled because i view the self as the most universal thing that you could ever achieve.

And i am talking about way more than the choices you make in everyday life. My focus is more universal than that.

I am not just talking about the obvious.

I have a question.

Do you think that humanity is outside of the universal or that the mysteries of the universe lie outside of humanity?

Another one. Do you think their is no connection between the everyday choices and the everyday happenstances to the grand scheme of things?

Do you think that all this shit that is going on down here has nothing to do with the universe?

Do you believe that there is nothing beyond that which you see?

Perhaps searching for God isn't about worshipping him. I don't think most people search for God because they want to worship him. Instead they want to live life with meaning, and see things in a bigger way. Perhaps they are not only focused on how to be the best person as to avoid a "hell" but the want to see where they fit and what their purpose is. Perhaps it is to understand and gain control of their life. maybe they don't want to live their life being swayed and pulled around by circumstances, but to rise above it and be able to have true freedom from all their past hurts and present fears. So that they can say "i have a choice." It wouldn't be as simple as walking down the street and choosing to walk right because there is a smaller crowd or because it is easier. They won't be restricted by their weaknesses. Hope. Faith. Not in some creator of the universe but in themselves and in other human beings. Fearlessness and a sense of security in life and love and everything else.

Perhaps they call this journey, this feeling in their stomache, this hopeful enthusiasm, this determination, this voice within by a name. And this name means more to them than some mythical king on a thrown ruling over and judging. Perhaps this name is what they give for the force that they feel but can't explain, to the current that pulls them near and far, to the underlying something lying somewhere that seems to hold something profound and divine. Suppose they call it God. So that God is not just some separate "thing" pulling the strings but the process in which everything actualizes itself.

Then in the end would you really need proof of something that you know is there? Would you need to negate anything if God is a deeply personal entity that binds you to everything else?

Would you need God to be absolute?

Why not relative?

Why not both in and out of existance?

Why not king and servant?

Why not a paradox?

Okay, that's all I got for now.
life why don't you ask gog or ..
Jesus maybe ?

or maybe all the anawers are in you...

its what ever you wnat it to be maybe ?
make it good in that case!

make sure that you always ask questions the way a child does.
phil Do you think that humanity is outside of the universal or that the mysteries of the universe lie outside of humanity?

We are an oddity within the universe. The only normal thing is emptiness, apparently.
Even if mysteries were inside of us we would still be unable to see them through normal observation.

Do you think their is no connection between the everyday choices and the everyday happenstances to the grand scheme of things?
Do you think that all this shit that is going on down here has nothing to do with the universe?

I think of a bubble falling into the ocean. The argument seems to lack reason.

Do you believe that there is nothing beyond that which you see?

I lose my keys a lot. I've never stopped searching and have always succeeded in finding them. I believe in their separate existence from my pocket, but I don't enjoy it, and refuse to accept it as my reality.

On the other hand. People have got me thinking there is an edge, beyond this edge nothing exists because there is center where we began.
But I think this idea is probably wrong.
It don't see the evidence, and I just figure things are different.

Then in the end would you really need proof of something that you know is there?

I would hope I had found it somewhere along the journey.
I would much rather find out that the badlands are beautiful and worth visiting and life changing, than spend a thousand extra years living in the same basement. Even coming back to the basement you at least have some inspiration.

Would you need to negate anything if God is a deeply personal entity that binds you to everything else?

We all have unique challenges and might not succeed all the time. Being proven wrong does not mean what you believed is wrong. Not if you keep trying. But if you are trying to bind me to something here you might run into some problems.

Would you need God to be absolute?
Why not relative?
Why not both in and out of existance?
Why not king and servant?
Why not a paradox?

same if I created...

poegae [p'ji] vi., to be suspended in a fixed position without realizing it is happening adj. [colloq.] to be paused while jumping (in a video recording) n. (Science) planetary bodies which formed before the existence of life [slang] frisbee
They call me Truth If I was to say something in response to what you are saying it would be my ego.

So I will just bow my head.

But all of my questions were aimed at a specific person named Pete.

Maybe you are Pete.

There is no argument here. I was simply having a conversation with a person i found to be interesting and rather intellegent in his thought process.

I do not know what i would say about you though.
I wouldn't mind getting to hear your thoughts.
They call me Truth Why does everyone always think that humans are oddities?

Is that assumption we make because we haven't met anyone as odd as us?

And how can we make that judgment based on the bias position in which we stand?

We are humans and though we may see ourselves as odd how would we know how odd we were unless we knew how odd everything else is?

Sorry, i tried but that statement bugged me. I do understand why you would come to that conclusion but I also have to take the humble view and say perhaps we have no clue what we are in relation to everything else.

Our ego exaggerates our significance.

Or our "oddity" as you say it.
phil Using math we can show the relative positions of the stars and planets moons etc. based on their movements and our explanation of the phenomenon in the sky.

Based on that stuff you can see what is mostly empty space. And I mean EMPTY (see: solar_system). Things that do exist, like atoms, are not even slightly close to one another, enough emptiness already!

Secondly, most of what has mass are simply elemental. They cannot die, they do not live. The life forms in our universe/galaxy/solar system occupy a very thin layer around this tiny earth surface. The same comparison can be made between space to objects as objects to life. It is a fraction of a fraction. Probably between life and intelligent life also.

But I digress, leaving out whether or not our particular species is unique for any reason.

Just being alive is kind of "odd".

I even believe further that everything (to us) is still a yet even more microscopic piece to a larger picture that is so disgustingly huge and also that the tiny complexities within ourselves, our atoms etc., is so vastly tiny and complex it's just sick and wrong, I don't want to die trying to think about it.

I don't think anywhere else there is something like us, right now. I think it is extremely chaotic yet sparse enough and that the universe just happens to be there and we just happen to see it and it is just a fluke that anything has ever happened that was so bizarre.

I think the idea of time and space and other things we think about are to limited to describe much outside of daily lives. Not that our lives are insignificant in any way. It's just the infinite span of time is incomprehensible.

It is obvious the energy of life flows from the sun, and just pours onto our planet and all over the place. Unless the sun is alive, it is wasting all the energy on heating a bunch of rocks, and luckily keeping us alive in the process. I don't think there was ever any intention of our existence. Nothing is watching us, we are the watchers of it.

And it is not something that is easy to grasp entirely and it will always just fill our minds to complete capacity trying to comprehend. But there is no reason for any of this stuff to exist, it just happens to exist and simply must be observed to be understood at all. And we are here, in some random location in the middle of infinite madness trying to grasp a snowflake.
They call me Truth There is something to your writing that intrigues me, and though i may not share your thoughts on all these things, i can understand your reasoning. In some ways the things that you said were humble and in some ways very proud but I admire the fact that you see things in such a way.

It is very true that this world seems to be chaos and it is very true that we are even lucky to be alive and it is an amazing fact that we are, that is very different yet very similar to mine.

So what does life mean to you?
If we it springs from chaos but is so incredible in its oddness and flukish nature.

Does it have any significance at all?
pete answers forthcoming 070227
phil A black void with little points of smite, to be forged in our vision, explored in a jacuzzi space ship while sipping profound martinis.
Everyone will be doing this in the future.
After our science gives us near limitless power we may start to wonder wether we actually created the universe itself. (Since we always need something "creating the universe".)
Being alive is a great idea! Though it seems bestowed on me uniquely. We are as a whole, stupid people.
Which is better than just some unaware glob of gook.
Maybe there is no better place to live than right here on earth. But ya, I'm all for betterness, and goodness while we are on the subject.
I don't seem to be able to grasp much.
Everything seems to want to swirl around and be shiny or dark and it likes to be really very big and I am clueless.
But I don't believe when I die anything will change a great deal.
I think that the universe is kind of like a fruit loop. Is my mind and the universe mind one and the same?
A lot of wish washy talky talk.
Zappers or trap.
phil So what does life mean to you?
If we it springs from chaos but is so incredible in its oddness and flukish nature.

Does it have any significance at all?

I signify life.
Did you know that radioactive material decays into other material. Uranium decays into lead and hafnium decays into tungsten. I did not know that!
Tungsten is my favorite element, not just the W, but it's heavy, non-toxic, easy to get, it has a very high melting point and is a hard metal.
We have meteorites that hit our planet and our moon and mars and they contain tungsten and hafnium.
All this heavy radioactive metal comes from a dead star that exploded and our solar system was formed by the collapse of it's debris, under gravity.
So we know, from the hafnium/tungsten ratio of meteorites, when our sun was made, in theory. By when the debris was formed. Meteorites are this original debris.
The earth was completely molten from the energy of the collapse and no rocks survived on our planet from that molten time period. But we do find rocks that were formed here from early on.
Fossils in some rocks of organisms date back an incredibly long time.

In an incredibly shortened time frame, these formations happened rapidly. Within 100 million years of one another.
You can't say for sure when the Earth existed, who knows where all the things came from, but it's very amazing what science can do to convince me about this stuff, from bits and pieces, the image seems to focus. But like an image it is only a representational piece of the whole thing. But if we can consider that piece true other things will begin to fall into place, like with any puzzle, it can be solved.
Without evidence any scenario could be correct.
I like the idea of a more advanced civilization than ours existing in the past on this very planet, leaving the earth, then returning to spy on us. It's a real funny idea and I like it.

Science can't look into the future because there is no evidence, but it may exist just as the past had, but until we find some convincing evidence that can be reproduced, testing, independently evaluated, we will just never know what lies ahead of us, or what lies behind us.

I always liked Astronomy and physical science. I also like art, from architecture to music.
But I set a certain moral to my life, about honesty and cooperation..
I think many people are incapable of doing what they say they are doing.
I think people lie and can even be cruel intentionally.
I find a lot of religion stupid and ill-guided. I attended church, I don't like their views.
I think religion is valiant in many ways, but it is utter failure; yet people cling to it.
It can be forced upon you.
But if you analyze a church service, you just see people sitting around.
One religion has a simple message, you can live your life.
It doesn't involve any useless stuff and let's you decide what to do for yourself.
People want to hear more.
But you ask me any question and I can answer it, just like that.
I can put meaning into your life.
I can logically show what the value of everything is.
pete we as humans live on a planet that sustains us, that planet is in a solar system, which is in a galaxy, which is in the universe, which contains all that exists. thinking of what exists outside of the universe is thinking nonsense as there is nothing beyond what exists, because what is beyond existence does not exist and therefore is not real. things that do not exist can and do influence the way we, as human beings, see the world, experience the variety of life, and internalize our own condition on this planet, in this solar system, galaxy, and universe.

the idea of God must be universal. that is our tradition. God is one, all seeing, all powerful, all good. gods are not any of those things and are relative. it's more likely that there are many gods than there being a conscious God. anything that claims to Godhood rather than godhood should be beyond time, existing all at once, and in that sense beyond being (very [neo]platonic), in eternity. unlike the realm of the immortals, which exists within time, eternity is all of time in an instant ( which is the best, albeit crappy, metaphor available ). anything existing in Eternity is completely beyond our understanding, comprehension, and is best described in negatives.

if you have faith you can believe in God, if not then you're best bet, if you want divinity, is in gods.

the microcosm is not the macrocosm. the atom is not the solar system. your life is not the human condition (nor is mine, nor your lover's, nor my roommate's). we live in the universe, we do not reflect it. we inhabit a small portion of space-time, we are not icons of its totality. the tree does not tell you all you need to know of the forest, nor does it in isolation provide even a good model. i'm sure there is more out there than we could possibly imagine, with star wars, star trek, bsg, and other series doing their damndest to explore those unknowns for us intellectually.

it is arrogant to claim that our experience, as a species, is anything important, let alone unusual or divine. it may be true, i'm more of an agnostic like that, but it's highly unlikely. all life is highly unlikely. were are the combination of improbabilities, life is that infinite drive that douglas adam's dreamed up. we are the cooks and customers in the cafe that powers the ship, except the ship is an isolated body from the outside. we are within it, operating controls that are not of our own making and do not respond in the ways that we think they do.

if you have your faith and your God that is wonderful. i merely point beyond the box that that holds, to the relativity of human thought, the multiplicity of our worldviews (emphasis on the word world). our actions and thoughts tell ourselves who we are, but even more so what others say about us are just as important.

believe as you will, it will influence your entire being whatever you believe or disbelieve, but believing, i think, is the most important action one can ever make.
phil That is real nice to read, thanks. Comforting and peaceful.

God as a metaphor for all.
It seems a natural home for my humble experiences.
As I let my mind expand it will forever fill my life, it contains all I seek to answer.
Let's say, pain, or hatred. Does it continue to represent the all, has all changed according to my whim, am I God?

Or does it simply disprove the all can be grasped by myself?

I imagine what exists outside of existence, the darkness, I call it "the no". To imagine this place, I feel, is to imagine reality as it is. The emptiness, the truly unseen.
Within it all the things that exist are simply an inescapable grain of sand on an otherwise perfectly blank.

In this view and from a great distance, without any detail whatsoever, you see existence all together, understanding no part of it.

So here we are, trying to understand piece by piece what that grain of sand is doing here, will we see the reason?

Is the reason to exist for the sake of existing? Is our purpose just to make the nothingness be nothing and be huge and not be.

Clearly, for some reason, it is absolutely impossible for us not to exist. We are needed, we must be here, any other way is simply not real.
We are the single, the whole, and the only way, reason or no reason.
Reason is beneath us, it is simply not necessary when dealing with reality. We can stick our tongue out, because we exist, and we need to exist. We are larger than no. We are yes, and yes is like a big mind-fuck to no. It's like there never was a no, and there never will be again. Fuck no.

But where is God in all this? And how did we get here? What is the theory that makes sense?

Clearly somebody somewhere actually knows God. Is God the no? Is god truly never was and never will be, is God the now? maybe. Was not God no and now always was yes? Where does this leave my soul? Where do we go when we die? Nowhere? Back to God, we return to living somewhere else in the all?

Clearly we cannot stop existing. That would mean somehow something impossible happens when you die. Am I missing a piece? If God never was and is and we were and aren't... where does this tunnel go? Does it move onto a different idea? A different arrangement of reality? Or does it go, right back to where we always are. Which is here. Right where you are at.

I think I may have caught a glimpse. Like lightning hitting a void.
phil mumbling wall And that is what I believe.
A simple little jolt snuck in and just took everything as the last blossom fell from the tree. Now there is no tree only blossoms. And the blossoms are really just a tree that no longer exist. And you can just float now. Without cause.

And coming back to reality makes me very sad. For some reason. And crying and tingling feelings. It's in and it's out sometimes like that.
They call me Truth A long time ago, when we began to think and question existance we decided what we would believe and the intricate components of those beliefs. Myths, morals, and religion. And then there was God. I wonder who created who. 070518
They call me Truth But in the birth of all of this and in the inevitable sense of loss that time brings, we forgot how these things came to existance and to this day, these early ponderings govern our beliefs and our lack of belief and it is funny how much control these things have to the point where, it is no longer, or never was, the question of whether God exists, but whether our earlier ponderings should be replaced with newer ones. 070518
pete I'm the most Ath of them all! 070519
sameolme Nope I'm athier than thou. 070519
Isaou A sign on the church in my neighbourhood reads;

"God does not believe in athiests, therefore athiests do not exist"

what's it to you?
who go