americanpride eddie If you do not like it here GET OUT!YOU PEOPLE DO NOT BELONG HERE GO TO IRAQ OR SOMETHING.And the reason why we got in a fhight with japan is because they started it!!DID YOU FORGET ABOUT PEARL HARBER!!!!We may have proplems but other places have problems too ,and i bet japan is not perfect as well.We all have problems.So if you do not like it here go to heck!!! 040114 ... Kevin-proud to be american hi my name's Kevin and i'm from alabama. I'd just like to say that I'm proud to be an american. Im a pure american in fact im so pure that my mom and my sister are sisters and if i even see a coloured person i get out a banana from my stash of bananas that i carry around me for the purpose of delivering bananas and i throw them at that coloured person because daddy who is also my nephew told me that they are evil and will take everything if you give them anything. Sometimes i heckle jews in the street because my friend caleb said they started world war two and killed all the germans by selling them poisoned sausages which is purty sneaky really when you think about it. And if a coloured person or a jew dont like the way i treat them then they can just go back home to their coloured friends in their coloured country. I mean the dont even have water because jehro my girlfirend said that we invented water and that they are jealous and are trying to poison us with fake water from cows. 040114 ... dB You site Pearl Harbour as teh start of the war. How many people died? less than 3000 I think. Where did it end? Nagasaki and Hiroshima. People were dying there for years after you'd finished with it. You can't go around crying "they started it!", it's up to you to say where it ends. You have to finish it, sure. But the big thing is HOW you finish it. No wonder I feel no pity for americans killed in terrorist attacks. You just won't accept responsibility for the shit that you do to everyone else and you always have to have the last word, and it has to be a BIGGER last word. Piss off. 040114 ... p2 hmmm eddie was asking to be smacked down but to say you feel no pity for americans killed in terrorist attacks is pretty damn cold one day i may die because i chose to cross a bridge at the wrong time will you then shrug and say "well, he was an american" 040114 ... dB that's exactly right. I do not know you, just as I don't know people in the buildings that get blowen up in iraq or afganistan. I don't know anybody in the bali boming or wtc. It's all stuff that happens in the news. It's a shame that it's happening, sure enough. And I do wish that it would stop, but because of the pride of america and your precious "freedom/oil/whatever the hell" it's not going to. If your government would stop fucking with other countries then you'd not get bombed. how am I supposed to feel pity for what is simply a stupid accident caused by the pride of man? 040114 ... u24 some_guy_dead 040114 ... dB so what you are saying u24 is that you want to be remembered, you want to do something important that when you die you won't be that guy who has a few loose relations turn up at your funeral and then be forgotten forever. You want to be special. you want to be importand and remembered. that's egotistical my friend. that's selfish and dumb. 040114 ... p2 accident? a terrorist act is no accident your inability to see americans as individuals puts you on the same level as americans who can only see foreigners as non-americans ps- isolationism does not stop wars 040114 ... dB and america bombing teh crap out of smaller nations and stealing their assets is not an accident? Look at it this way, if Wellington (my city) was destroyed by a terrorist bomb, would many people in the states really care? there's nothing here worth much to them. There's nobody here they know. Chances are CNN would use it as another scare story to say how rampant terrorists are then say it was the cubans or something stupid like that. when the wtc blew up initially I was shoked. later my reserch revealed WHY it happened and i no longer felt sorry for them. You'd do the same for me. And as is the american way you'd strike back at the wrong target on our behalf, get yourselves bombed again, blame it one someone else, bomb them, get bombed again yourselves and so on. If this isn't a stupid cycle then I'm a nuclear ladybug. 040114 ... p2 you were the one who mentioned "accidents" not i and do not presume to tell me what i would do you don't know me well enough as for why it happened that again reflects how you cannot see past the label "american" i can understand if you feel no pity for america but what about the american father who was only there to work for his family or the american child who will grow up without a father? can you see they are not only americans but also a father and a child? i know it happens all the time does that make it less tragic? and i know x will chastise me for attributing tragedy to death but that's just my opinion i guess i've been in enough of these threads to know that we'll never agree i just wanted to get a clearer view of your viewpoint and now i see you as you are jaded, cynical, and callous 040114 ... dB I am cynical. that is correct. I do aggree that it is not right that a child should grow up without a father. Or that the father is now a small pile of dust mixsed with more dust that got thrown in a dump truck and ditched somewhere. However, I've learned to not allow my personal feelings to effect my judgement in the truth of these matters. Why is a a question that I always ask whenever I see anything. If I allowed personal feelings for either side to affect me then it will just impede my search for the truth. I hope you can see that side as well. We will never aggree, but that doesn't mean we can't have a certain amount of respect for each other. Your points are valid and I appreciate them. that rant at the start of this topic is what got me going really. 040114 ... birdmad db, i still have to reiterate that i disagree rather pointedly with your assessment that the simple fact of being an american is guilt enough to erase sympathy. while more eloquently spoken, it's essentially no better than the sort of purely prejudicial views advanced by people like eddie or any of the other terrible elements of american society or of the terrible elements of any other society. It would be like someone here in the US having the gall to say they have no sympathy for the victims of the quake which hit Iran a couple of weeks ago simply for the fact that the victims were Iranian to reserve sympathy for where one is or isn't from is to sink to the level of the worst of us. and eddie, you are a colossal fuckwit. The war with Iraq was sold to the american public on a fraudulent basis by a bunch of people who talk a mean game about integrity but have thus far shown none. Notes found on Saddam Hussein and general intelligence have proven that the Bush administration's desperate wish to prove some fictional connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. Saddam didn't like religious fanatics, al Qaeda is an organization of religious fanatics (not unlike the republican party) Saddam urged his lieutenants to be wary of co-operating with foreign Arabs trying to get their jihad on because it would run contrary to the Ba'ath party's goal of trying to regain power once the american presence was gone or minimized. The_democracy_fairy isn't going to magically appear where dubya wants it to, and he shoiuld shut his fucking hole about democracy while he';s still inn bed with the Saudi royal family, Islam Karimov of Uzbwkistan and Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan because those three bunches of tyrannical fucks wouldn't know democracy if it bit them on the ass, but yet president yellow-stain likes 'em anyway. george_w_bush_is_a_punk_ass_bitch 040114 ... endless desire im not even going to bother reading this. people always say that if i don't like america, then i should leave. well, i will as soon as i get the chance. though i must say, the low fast food prices might get me to stay a little longer. (rolls eyes ridiculously) it just seems to me that there is very little to be proud of...i'd much rather be a little american girl, blessing the ground, kissing the flag, and holding my head high. they make us say the pledge in school. but i dont say it. and then they just make me stand up but i dont want to. so they kick the back of the chair, so i have no choice. you want to be proud of america...just look at who is running us and who wants to be and how they are choosing to get to the top. and watch the news and the way they try to scare us. but i suppose i shouldn't dislike america, i should just dislike the human race. it's just that america thinks they are better when they are really just like everyone else. why does someone always have to be better or worse? why can't they just be? 040114 ... america people_gw_bush_should_thank 040114 ... dB Birdmad, don't make the assumption that my lack of feeling only extends to americans. It covers everybody unless I have an actual emotional attachment to them. Hope clouds observation. If I sat around like some Oprah-watching fool crying about something like the WTC thingy then I'd never bother looking for the facts about what happened. Also, it's a desensitisation. We're bombarded with this stuff every damn day. After a while you get used to it. it's like kids getting used to horror films or working in a casualty ward. The issue is bigger than the people. Much, much bigger. So I'll focus on that thankyouverymuch. And if I say I don't like what america is doing, that is precisely what I mean. Got to admit, there's not alot going on to reform the system over there. Oh yeah, sure some people are trying by having protests etc, but they are only getting their asses kicked. Not a lot of getting rid of the corrupt two-party system or getting the fuck out of other peoples countries. That's the big issue here. WTC, Bali, Iraq etc are just symptoms. Have a fucking revolution dammit! It's about time and the only way the US is going to change is if you destroy the system completely and start again. Those in power now are not going to let go without a fight. Idiot at teh top of this blathe likes his freedom so much but he ain't going to fight for it properly, just like most americans. Fuck! Most of you don't even vote because it's so pointless. Get rid of the two-party system. Stop companies and buisness having such a huge influence on government and military policy. Do it by force of arms if you have to. Until you do your country is still a rogue terrorist state and nothing you can say here will change that. You think violence isn't the answer? Think again. If you start it, I will come and help finish it. Ain't my country but I'm not going to hide up a tree when the shit hits the fan. America can't last forever. What is it? 6% of the worlds population sucking up over 40% of the worlds natural resources. That kind of excess has a price. Eventually maintaining it will be a problem (we see the symptoms already). When it starts to falter the shit will really get nasty, especially when the leading powers are untouchable by common people. You have the worlds largest military force by what, 3 times is it? When you have that sort of power with an excessive hunger... I don't need to tell you. Just start fighting properly, now. Otherwise we are all in the shit. You want to know what I care about? Well that's it. America will go berserk, it's happening all around the world. Unless somebody stops america and restarts it again - properly this time. There is too much power in one place and you only have to look to history to see what happens when a nation gets too powerful and can't support itself. Anyway. That's what I care about. All evidence points to america storming the globe with a few allies that it's easier to assimilate than to crush. Don't know when it's going to happen, but it will. You can stop it now. You just need to act now. But then again, you're americans, why stop your own country? 040114 ... celestias shadow "God Bless America" **slight rewording is entirely the original work of celestias shadow** If tomorrow all the things were gone, That made this a great country I wouldn't have to look too far To know whose fault it'd be I’d thank my lucky stars, to be female and white today. Or else they might deport me Or lock me up in Guantanamo Bay And I’m ashamed to be an American, when speech is no longer free. And I won't forget the men who died, for a war not supported by me And I can't condone our president when I hear him every day, Flaunt false religion in my face, 'God bless the USA.' From the lakes of Minnesota, To the East Coast you could roam Across the plains of Texas, Where the president has his home From Detroit down to Houston, and from New York to L.A. We used to have our freedoms 'Til Ashcroft took 'em all away And I’m ashamed to be an American, when speech is no longer free. And I won't forget the men who died, for a war not supported by me And I can't condone a president when I hear him every day, Flaunt false religion in my face, 'God bless the USA.' 040117 ... silentbob The pearl harbor bombing lost far more than the world trade center and pentagon attacks combined 040117 ... silentbob or maybe im misinformed 040117 ... xyz "People are hated a lot of places. Claire pointed out in her letter that Americans, in being hated, were simply paying the normal penalty for being people, and that they were foolish to think they should somehow be exempted from that penalty." -Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut 040117 ... endless desire shadow--niice 040118 ... stork daddy some people act as if it shows a wisdom or awareness being able to see current world events as history, as something they are detached from, as if it is prescient being able to see the rivers of our blood and the mountains of our bodies we have built for our governments and religions at the disinterested level one approaches the geology of mountains carved out of rock and returned to sand with. I say it shows a lack of the type of understanding we need to survive to be so alienated from the only life we know we have for sure. Anyone who looks at humanity and this earth as if it is a dawdle, as if they are waiting for an answer beyond it, will lose it, and so had better be sure of that answer. It is true we are desensitized. We see a hundred deaths a day on tv and as long as it isn't ours, the show goes on. There are no work holidays, that assignment is still due, your child is still hungry. But the answer is not to say to oneself that the personal and political cannot be reconciled, or even worse, to deny the value of the personal. The answer is not to say, those deaths don't bother me, they were justified by other deaths, by other politics. That is the kind of thinking, the subtle evil behind phrases like "collateral damage" that our American government has employed at its worst at its most criticizeable, and to adopt the same stance while criticizing it is hypocritical. To adopt the same stance is to take the view that it's tit for tat, that a cycle can't be broken, and that a power struggle between governments and implicitly then the innocent citizens they represent is justified and valid, and it ultimately serves to validate the USA's way of diplomacy. We all have to take more responsibility for the world now. That is the new world. We can't count solely on our beaureaucrats to do it for us. Also, in this new world, one can't really turn a blind eye to what's happening to others elsewhere. Governments must work out their problems in the way their people demand of them. No one wants their children to die while they're at school, riding the bus. No one wants to lose their father or mother while they're at work, working for the life they share. I am against terrorism. Whether it is sponsored by our government or another. To take the stance that it's fairplay, that all is fair in war, is to dismiss the value of civilization, of rules, is to accept the free for all that would be the end of humanity. The US has committed the worst acts of terrorism in the history of humanity (the dropping of the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagaasaki). The times of huns massacreing a village are over. We cannot turn a blind eye to the rest of the world. Even a single voice of discontent, has now all of the terrible magnifications our technology of war affords them. So no one can afford to ignore innocent lives being lost. The bell tolls then for you as well, if you end up on the wrong side of a political agenda. The only thing that can save the world is involvement in the world of politics and choices at a world level. Advances in other technologies also allow our voices to be heard across the world. In the same way that terrorism is an individual act of war, mass meetings of like-minds can be an individual act of peace. Perhaps these too will fail, perhaps our hearts really are different, the blood we spill not the same color, but if we leave it to our government, if we turn our faces away and try to live isolated from it all, that too will eventually fail us. When elephants fight it is the grass that suffers is a phrase that comes to mind. To tell others to take responsibility is to not take any yourself. American pride is as foolish a phrase as English pride and Muslim pride as Irish pride as Jewish pride. Pride is a sense of superiority. We should have human pride. We should all have a sense of worth for our various cultures, but nothing should override our pride at being living breathing human beings, with minds that can comprehend great beauty, but are of no use if the only strategy they can find is short term domination at the cost of long term destruction and often great amounts of immediate suffering in the meanwhile. No one who watches terrorism happen with an impartial eye is innocent. American or otherwise. This is not to say that some people won't abuse power, however. It is the imperative that people who can use their power with compassion and wisdom stay ahead of those who would not. And it is the duty of the majority of humanity (who want such compassion and happiness, i hope) to ensure that their governments achieve this. If the majority of humanity cannot see that what's best for them is what's best for their neighbor, i can only hope a leader comes along who can help them see that, who can bring charity into their hearts by promising them the happiness it will assuredly bring. People are sent to die all of the time in wars. For once, perhaps, people could be taught that it is their civic duty to suffer a little bit for peace. I'm going off on a rant a bit here, but i really am disturbed when people aren't concerned with the loss of innocence. The US is a country full of contradictions, full of great potential for both horror and beauty. It is also filled with people just like you. If you cannot see that this matters, you aren't living anymore, you're just waiting for the end. 040119 ... informant Pearl Harbor: 2,403 WTC Attack: 2,749 040124 ... Azz Hey, not trying to be anti US here (I'm from Britain), but most countries opinions of the states isn't that great at the moment. Pearl Harbour... a reason for you to join the war. Why weren't you in the war from the start, trying to stop an evil man taking over the world and killing an innocent religion, like most other countries? What else can you say for the country that produces 80% of the world's CO2 emissions, and has only just joined the anti pollution groups. A country where you can sue someone for trying to save your life. Oh well, every country has it's own problems. Sorry if I offend 040124 ... oE well the whole thing about america's reluctance to enter wwII is in part a reflection of our percieved racial constitution..in that i mean during that time white males of western european descent held the reigns of power and they harbored thinly veiled anti-semitic impulses. A lot of politicians and presidential advisor's did not want to alienate america's large german-american contingent. (i mean 'cause japanese americans were hoarded into barbed wire hotel sixes right?) Part of it is the geographic insulation and a nation reeling in the economic throes of a depression..I'm sure there's more i could add but.. 040124 ... oE oh and let's not forget about the slippery slope of rah rah raison d'etre that handy all encompassing National Security rubric that provides the pretext and the pretense for some of america's questionable encroachments upon sovreign nations, not too mention abrogations of american citizens liberties. 040124 ... dB Sorry I'm late. to respond to an earlier point: Yes, I view current events as history. Yes I stay detached from them. I can't be otherwise. It (WTC, Iraq, Everything the US does overseas and to itself) does not really effect me. It just look at it and think "what a fucking stupid country". You want a charismatic leader to unite you as one people and use the power of the states to help the rest of the wrold? Sorry, I'm just too busy at the moment. Pearl Harbour is history. The WTC is history. The Soldier that rolled a grenade into his commanding officers tent because he pissed him off is history. It's you dumb ass pride that won't allow you to let go and move on. You have to make sure that you create some history for other people as well so that they can be in pain themselves rather than just share yours. 040215 ... u24 regarding comments on 040114 how you you get to the conclusion that I wanted to be remebered, etc? 040407 ... stork daddy wow, you sure misinterpret a lot of what people say DB. you can insult my dumbass pride all day, but it seems you're the one who isn't open to seeing things in a new light. i have no attachment to america. i see the beauty it has offered historically and i see the tragedy, the cancerous ugliness as well. i personally feel still that america has offered more to the human canon than it has detracted as of yet, but the balances are shifting. that said, i could easily move to europe or japan or a million other places i find pleasant. i'd be willing to bet i wouldn't be so unhappy in some places people look at as miserable cesspools of political instability, poverty, and death. but i'm not so detached from life that i think history, or current events for that matter are something which should be let, let go on. what does it mean to let human events ramble on? it assumes we play no part in them. i won't get into a lengthy discussion of free will or an individual's ability to affect society at large, but humans make human events. the discussion we're having now is one such human event, any actions i take because of it affect what you call history. so no i don't just let past events go. i feel they should be learned from as best as they can. it's trite to say we must learn from history or we're doomed to repeat it, since the meaning of history is ever negotiable, but the fact is the past has very real consequences for the present. i don't want a charismatic leader to "use the power of the states." that makes it sound as if i want america to conquer the world. i will not however back down from the fact that america, whether either of us like it or not, isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and remains the sole superpower. the european union can't even agree on whether or not it uses the same currency, but i suppose that's just dumb british pride. so when i say i hope america sees the limitations of its current strategy and the bloodshed and loss it's causing and uses its power for better causes, it's not pride in my country, it's hope for humanity. since it's going to be around using it's power anyways why not hope for wise useage? but you think what you want about americans and about how we cling to events because we can't let them go. i'd watch out though since you're presenting the rest of the world as nihilists. with globalization looming, the days of stop bringing other people into your pain are waning. and a further note on that, islamic jihadists pay as much attention to distant history as recent history, so i guess it makes sense to you and to your theory of innocents dying in response to their country's past "wrongs" being okay, that many hardcore militant islamic terrorists want to destroy the west simply because of its christian heritage, looking back as far as the crusades for wrongs? so if the infidel devil of america was destroyed, my stupid pride filled life included, i suppose you wouldn't mind being the next obstacle in the path of beautiful submission to a false allah hegemony? why don't you get back to me on that one, and try to listen to what i'm saying this time. 040407 ... u24 db; no, I wasn't saying that I wanted to be remember, I don't know what I was saying, but it wasn;t that. Although it could be argues that we live on through other people's memories, I would point you to King Ozymandias as an example of the futility of this thought. 050111 ... u24 apologies for the horrifically bad use of spelling, grammar and typing skills. 050111 ... Mister Brightside i like dB, but for the most part, when he goes off on his rants, he's just as american about it as anyone else 050111 what's it to you? who go blather from