burden it seems to me that consistency isn't appealing, at least in a romantic sense. it's like people can live the asshole life and then show their tender sides when it's convenient. this sucks, at least for me, and millions of others, because I've been nothing but a weird, sensitive, tender guy all my life. I don't do guy things. I'm not gay. what gives? seriously, think about all those movies in which some superjock alpha male sex machine disaster gets the art girl because all of a sudden, he doesn't think she's bizarre and pathetic anymore? okay, I realize that usually the girl is insanely attractive (weird or not), and that movies aren't at all reflections of 'real' life (at least a great deal of the time), and that this is the myopic lovesick 19 year old in me screaming at a world he doesn't understand, but still... looking around, the nice guys really do tend to finish last, save the aberration. call me crazy, but I thought it would be a lot more appealing to show emotion, and to let something other than pure testosterone guide, rather than to think in terms of pussy and action and bitches and stuff. but, I look around, and what's happening? the opposite. maybe it's this cracked-up Republican county I live in, what with its explicit encouragement of machismo and killin' stuff and having a bigger bed in your pickup, but then again, maybe not. maybe it's just the world, and expectations denied. either way, it's sucked in so many ways to be nice. nice invites trampling. nice says "Ummm, hi, you're neat, maybe we could hang out sometime, I don't know," not, "You. Me. Sparks. You know you want it." am I making sense? sorry, this is all just kind of spilling, but could someone just help me out here? what's wrong with me? 020729
Kate Well, at least I don't think that there is anything wrong with you. You sound like a very solid, emphasis on having emotions, intelligent guy who would think before he did a lot of things. There needs to be more guys, and even more girls, like that. 020729
.-. perfect_man 020729
jessemo its kinda funny to think...

I once was a nice guy... i was calm and quiet sweet... all my friend were all nice guys.. and the girls were all sweet..
i'd walk around school feeling like a big dweeb.. for the nice guys dont get those girls of my dreams.. i changed...

i listen to all the not nice guy music.
i ditched all my nice guy frineds in a second. i did all the drugs that those mean dude's all do.
and soon, more then later, those chiks thought me cool.
i thought i was happy for now im not last...
but i was first in line for whores and white trash...
i spend all my youth thinking of the things i cant have.. i got what i wanted and i wasnt at all glad..
it turned out to be seen... that nice is just me... i like being nice.. even though i dont win first... but he who laughs last laughs best.. right???
and beside most marriages made in highschool end up in divorce... patience is a virtue... ill wait for someone who disserves my love...
im nice... but last im not... for im happy cause i like myself... i like myself because im nice...

this was dumb
oppressed_youth Yes, but in the same vein, nice girls tend to finish last too. I've been "nice" all my life and it's gotten me practically nowhere, save for a few close calls and minor relationships.

I do understand that it's different for guys because of this pressure to be studly Nascar Abercrombie-clad lumberjacks, but the truth is a lot of girls aren't attracted to that kind of guy. I find that kind of guy to be a barrel full of laughs. It's pathetic. They're trying to cover themselves up, but by acting strong they actually prove to be weaker. They don't have to courage to be themselves. How can that be attractive in any sense of the word?

But then, the nice guys haven't been so nice to me. So I'm starting to think that no one's nice, and you've got to be thouroughly jaded with the world to get a guy anymore.

It's just as frustrating for the opposite sex, is what I'm getting at here.
jessemo777 i think self esteem is everything... you can be nice and meek, i think thats attractive, but meekness doesnt mean u have to think your less then anyone... and girls although nice, with no shred of self purpose is just not attractive.
nobody wants to be with someone that is empty inside.
be nice... but dont be a pushover... there is a difference.
love god... in that youll find love for yourself, and purpose, and belive me, a person with passion for life is most attractive.
well ok.. this was dumb...
Moonpiece yep. i've always been nice and cynical, a really bad mix. plus i'm weird as fuck, but around people, i tend to cling to common denominators which always comes off as shady to most people, probably because i'm not being myself, which i can't even close to defining. i just want to be liked i guess. but fuck that anymore. and then there's the question of opposites, contraries, whatever you can call them, they always screw shit up for me. i can approach the same situation in two totally opposite attitudes, but not make a single decision because of the equal validity for both those opposites. argh. plus i don't smile very much, which turns girls off. and i never take action because of reasons stated above and the mistrust issues from several failed past relationships. but once someone gets to know me they realize that i'm mostly driven by my heart, which constantly leads to a lack of respect from others. dunno, i guess patience pays off and i'll figure something out eventually. and maybe i'm not a nice guy anymore. no, i don't believe that; i think that some situations just make people behave differently that they would if things were all fine and dandy. 020729
oppressed_youth Yeah, but I'm not a pushover. I'm not meek. I'm not empty inside. I just don't have confidence eminating from every pore of mine.

Seems to me that the nice guys never go for nice girls, just like nice girls never go for nice guys. Like two positive ends on a battery don't attract each other. Which sucks for me, because I've always been attracted to positivity.

Oh, and as for the loving god bit...


Yes. That will get me laid.
burden I think the problem is that the nice guys and the nice girls are the ones too often afraid to just go and get it. maybe I'm just speaking for myself here, but I'm also kind of clarifying my first post. believe me, I want a nice girl, and I want to be nice to a nice girl (way to go in a circle, I know). seriously, it seems like humility and self-doubt are shameful, shameful qualities in the world of lovin'. not to be vain or anything, but I'm really a pretty attractive guy physically (just trust me on that, please), and I have an interesting (read: weird/quirky) personality, I've been told (and I believe myself). so what gives? is confidence really that large a factor, or are people just too picky anymore? or am I just a wuuuusssss? 020731
sleepwalk dance anymore when i am bad, the nice girls want to tame me and the bad girls want a partner in crime when i am good, the nice girls see no challenge and the bad girls just see easy prey

when i shoot for a state of being that is somewhere in between, i am regarded in general with suspicion, so i at least know for sure that i finish last
oppressed_youth Well, you know what? I'm also an attractive, interesting (albeit weird) young person who's equally frustrated with the package that comes along with being nice.

But I'm really not afraid to go out and get what I want. After all, you're only young once (pardon the cliché). I've gone out plenty of times, but I always come back empty handed. It's very frustrating.

I think the thing is we're all pretty young, so it's jumping the gun a little to be monumently depressed about lacking a significant other. But even saying that, I'm being hypocritical. Because I want one, goddamnit.

In the words of Charlie Brown,

burden it's not so much a monumental depression about my lack of a significant other, more a monumental frustration at my wussiness and a monumental confusion at why it won't go away. it's leaving in increments, I must say, but there's still too much of it to constitute an appealing awkwardness. 020731
oppressed_youth Are you kidding? Being sensitive and awkward and thoughtful are very admirable qualities for a guy to have. It's not wuss-like in the least. Maybe you're just going after the wrong kind of girl.

Then again, I should be looking in the mirror as I say this.
burden maybe you're right, although I haven't really gone after that many in the first place... again, I think that's just because I'm afraid, and way too sensitive about it. also, I think I doubt potential opportunities way too much. usually, they have to smack me in the face for me to fully trust them (as in a girl saying, "Look, I like you,"), or I find out after it's too late... and that sucks the most. don't think I'm some somber wunkus, I just want somebody to love! it'll happen, I know, but I'm too impatient, y'know? there should be a blather dating service, because it seems like a lot of us would be scarily compatible. 020731
oppressed_youth This is ridiculously ironic... 020731
burden or just ridiculous.

irony's more fun, though.
oppressed_youth When the two are combined, it's mayhem! 020801
Nathan88 i used to say this all the time and for the most part i strictly believed it was true, what fun is it if all girls ever want to do is be your freind because you are too nice ya know? anyways... i have discovered this is just a fallacy, we dont finish last we just have to work harder to find the perfect soul-mate which in turn only leaves us ahead of the game... 021202
rude man the hot chicks always go around looking for wife beaters anyways 021203
Nathan88 unfortunatley a really close freind of mine just got engaged to someone sho beats her...despite our pleads for her not too...not true in every case but still...what the fuck are they thinkin? 021203
dontworryaboutloveyet wow.

this is old, so i don't know if any of you will ever check back here, but you need to seriously get over this fear.

the most frustrating thing in the world is someone who's too afraid to do anything about their feelings. Now, I'm not trying to be sexist here, but girls - this is not our department. It's nice that we can sometimes be 'empowered' and 'break barriers', but all females yearn to be wooed - even the coldest, heartlessest bitches.

boys, these ones pose a bit of a risk to the safety of not even trying, but if she's worth it to you, make her laugh. do it with wit and finesse too - milk out of your nose is not funny until she knows you better, and it's just some adorable thing you're good at. if you're more interested in seeing her smile than showing her off to your friends, she will at least enjoy speaking with you. yes YOU. if any of your friends are 'cell-phone-playa', she's already met them. if you are 'cell-phone-playa', you're wasting your time. (see below). if you really don't know her at all, that means you are likely a 'good-guy'. this alone increases your chances to 50-50, as opposed to the 0% chance you have if you're standing in the corner staring at her like 'stalker-guy' does.
(he doesn't really know her either, but... he does. and she knows he does, she's not stupid. it's not good. if you are him, you will not make her smile. ever.) and by chances, i don't mean getting her into bed. i mean, if you like this girl and want to date her, this is your chance.

see, not many guys approach 'cold-heartless-bitch', save for 'cell-phone-playa', and 'cocky-drunk-loser' because neither are afraid of being denied. 'cell-phone-playa' has no insecurities about his looks, HE IS HOT. and he has NO personality to be insecure about. 'cocky-drunk-loser' is 'stalker-guy' in the making, and ironically has nothing going for him to LOSE in the first place. you will see 'cold-heartless-bitch' surrounded by many a 'cell-phone-playa' wherever she goes. rest assured - they are just her friends, because:
A) she would never get involved with them - they're slutty. and
B) she can rely on 'cell-phone-playa' to look good on her arm at formal functions requiring a date, not sparkling conversation.

you see her being cold to 'cocky-drunk-loser' and think you have no shot either. NO. do not compare yourself to him. save her from him. she will appreciate it. and she will WANT to keep you there. not because 'cocky-drunk-loser' could come back - no, i think he go the point. she was cold enough. plus he's drunk and already can't remember where to find her if he wanted to come back for more. no, she will want you to stay because you did something nice. she wants to know more about you. yes, she's a little suspicious... you could be 'dorky-magnet-puppy', in which case, she will be your friend, even tomorrow. but you're not - you're 'good-guy'. you said you were up there in your blathe, so believe it now.

you are wonderful. all of you will want to take her home, but you'll still keep getting to know her when she says no, this is how she knows you're 'good-guy'. you aren't off to find some sluttier peice of ass, and you're not persisting either. you like her. i suggest you don't ask her at all - she could accidentally mistake you for 'cell-phone-gino', which is worse, believe me. he's more pathetic than 'cocky-drunk-loser' because he's consciously aware he's being a dick. you'll know she isn't mistaking you for him, because it's been ten seconds and she hasn't told you to fuck off yet. if you accidentally do ask her to sleep with you, and you're still interested in her as a person when she says no, apologize - you were mocking 'cocky-drunk-loser', weren't you? yes. you were. you're'good-guy'. no matter what, she will not go home with you, no matter who you are.

if 'cell-phone-playa' is rejected, he's not worried, he'll never go home lonely anyway, he'll keep trying all the 'cold-heartless-bitches' and go home with 'mopey-best-friend'. you don't want her even to love her - she's already slept with 'cell-phone-playa' and that means she's got no self esteem.

this does not mean this is even a bar-type situation, in fact, 'cold-heartless-bitch' would prefer it if it weren't. 'cocky-drunk-loser' can also be found at staff functions, house parties, restaurants and sporting events... basically, anywhere you can buy alcohol. 'cell-phone playa' is at these places and more: the grocery store, the mall, the ice cream shoppe; basically, wherever 'cold-heartless-bitch' is. this is where you have to be.

DON'T FOLLOW HER - she might mistake you for 'stalker-guy'. But you are already in places she is anyway - your school, your work, your bus stop, your favorite book store... she's the one you think you can't have. you wonder if she's really 'cold-heartless-bitch' or 'sweet-shy-girl'. she's neither, so it's not hard. these aren't rules for playing a game. they are just things to remember so you can keep your fear in check. she is not better than you, nor does she think she is. this is not scary.

these girls will respect a guy who is not intimidated by her, only if he's a 'good-guy'. that's attractive. You are shaking in you socks, but making her laugh will make you feel better too. if you're a decent person, she will see it within the first five minutes of knowing you because she's no time-waster. she's not really heartless, she's just not thrilled about being involved in any predictable games, or unrealistic fantasies. If you want her, get her - if you don't, move on then. she will be content to wait for the man who WILL put in that much effort. she can be sweet and mushy, but she's in no big hurry - she's patient and values the quality of the mush - not the quantity. Men who want HER pity are not attractive; they will never be able to protect her when SHE is afraid. you don't have to be stronger than her - you just have to be even, because no matter how strong she is, when she feels weak, she'll feel weaker than you ever could.

guys - you need to step up to the plate. every girl likes sweet guys. there is no 'bad boy' syndrome, and if the girl you're after likes that crap, she's derranged. are you really that desparate to go for a girl who's derranged? yes, it's fun to do spontanious things, and there's nothing better than a 'mischevious' guy, but BAD is BAD. women are not attracted to men that hurt them, they are trapped by them from the abuse and can't leave, and believe me. if she is stuck on 'mean-bad-guy' she's confused because when she first met him, he was pretending to be 'good-guy'! if she's trying to find him in 'mean-bad-guy' again, let her do it. and get out of her life. this is a hassle. 'good-guy' will get 'hurt-bad'. you don't want a girl who wants to 'fix' you. plus, when she finds out you're not broken, she'll go back to 'mean-bad-guy'. don't mistake 'bad-choices-girl' for 'cold-healess-bitch' or 'sweet-shy-girl' or whatever you want to call her. she'd never put up with tht shit, and remember, she'll know right away if you've been good or bad (kinda like santa). actually, call her something nicer from now on, cause she's not cold to you any more.

you met. you asked her on a date. she wouldn't say no, because 'girl-with-whatever-new-sweet-name-you-give-her' will give every 'good-guy' one chance at least. 'good-guy' comes by so rarely, she's not gogin to throw you away, you could be a great friend, if you don't wind up her lover. and right now - that's where her mind is, (friend) so don't be pushy. If you're not to risky, and you're afraid being good gets you nowhere, instead, try the 'i-have-self-esteem' approach. this is treating a girl the way she LIKES to be treated, as opposed to how you precieve a girl SHOULD be treated. it makes all the difference. do this with your own dignity intact, and she will be smitten. a lady will be confident in you if you are confident in her. and you can't be confident in anyone unless you are confident in yourself - when you doubt yourself, you doubt others. at this time in your lives, the only thing you know about feelings and reactions to them are your own. (burden, you said you were 19, are you 20 now? it makes no difference.) trust me - not everyone reacts the same way to the same feeling. decoding that will come with time. one day, your girl will seem angry at you, and when you walk up behind her and swing her around and say, 'baby, why're you so crabby?' and pout silly, you'll laugh together, as you find out it has nothing to do with you. you can only get to KNOW her, to know how she reacts. And let her get to know you, so she knows what to expect from you.

don't make this a fricken puzzle she has to solve because once she ralizes that it wasn't that perplexing to begin with, she will be let down, when she realizes you were only being tricky and not real. be honest, but not heartbreakingly honest - too honest, too early is scary. No girl wants to know she ever made you hurt, or made you feel insecure about yourself, or has the ability to - nor does she want to hear that ANY girl did this to you. it sets off all kinds of alarms when a girl sees you troubled about something trivial, like a misunderstanding. regardless of how far we've come and how strong we are, we all want you to be stronger than we are. a weak man is easy - worth only whatever she took from you, or left you emptied of. and useless - if you need her strength, who is she going to turn to when she's breaking - girls break all the time, you just might not know it.

save the insecurity-complex confessions for when you're in love, and one night in bed you're smooching - giggling when you tell her. she'll take you right there. it's so cute you needed her that bad then - because you're so strong to her - she never would have known.

Yeah we LOVE your sensitivity, when we discover it. Don't put it on your sleeve though - everyone can see it there, and that's just not exclusive enough. if you'll offer it to just ANY girl, it's not that special. we want to know we're special. worth being sensitive FOR. (which is probably the appeal of 'mean-bad-guy'. if he's nice to any girl, even once, that's pretty fucking phenominal.)

Show your sensitivity by being gentle, and thoughtful and caring. This doesn't mean buy her roses and shower her with too much attention; nor does it mean writing some freaky-deaky song or poem to compare her to the prettiest, lost reed in a cold blue ocean. that's nice, but girls don't want to hear that shit just yet, if at all. I can almost assure you, 'girl-with-whatever-new-sweet-name-you-give-her' will find this a bit cheesy, unless it's VERY personalized. and most girls, except the 'bleeding-hearts' WILL find this a bit lame. so right away boys, plagerism is out the window. after the first month of dating each other, you can leave her a cute note about the way her butt looked in that skirt - and keep it short. don't make a desparate confession of your love, just yet. save that for your first fight three months down the road after she has already told you she loves you. if that hasn't happened yet, don't do it. just let her know you care. she does too, and she's taking you seriously by taking her time getting comfortable enough to tell you that. when she does, she will mean it.
this is just how girls work. I'd be really caustious of the girl that confesses her love to eery boyfriend after 2 weeks. ('bleeding-heart' - she's a pain in our ass and you'll have a hell of a time dumping her)

Just consider her thoughts as well as your own, not before your own. really, this will be appreciated. I know you think you're already doing this with the ladies, but you're not. you're investing too much emotion, too soon and doing it for YOUR agenda - not hers. You're doing it because YOU WANT HER SO BAD, and you think just because you're a nice guy, you deserve this nice girl. of course you do - but you can't expect it to be all about your feelings.

Now, if 'cold-heartless-bitch'/'sweet-shy-girl' is still too much of a gamble with your feelings for you (your loss though...), one word of serious advice - never, EVER tell a 'nice-girl' she is HOT when she knows she isn't. if she's unconventionally cute, tell her she has a nice smile, or you like how her hair shines in the sun - tell her the truth about the things you like about her. 'nice-girl' cuold also be 'smart-girl'. smart girls know when they're being patronized, and will definately ensure you'll get nothing from them after they take what they can from you, because she will either know you're a liar, or she'll think you're really desparate; that's so unattractive, we won't even touch the subject. if you're really, really good-looking, 'nice-girl' will like you already, if you are also nice. 'smart-girl' likes 'honest-boy', and really isn't all that concerned with your looks. it also helps if you have some interesting darkness to your persona. if you are not adorable, smart girl is the way to go, because she will show you real love, she'll like your personality - so i hope you have one. if the girl you are patronizing is not that smart - why are you wasting all that star-crossed-lover emotion you keep pent up inside on a stupid AND ugly girl? ARE you desparate? NO. you can do better.

on girls who are firends, never girlfriends: ascertain first whether you're a sucker, or whether your feelings are real. No girl will be your affectionate, sweet little friend without having some kind of crush on you, and TRUST ME, ladies, no guy in the world would be a sweet, affectinate friend to you if he didn't like you. Men do not get bothered with things that are not important to them. You are important, if your friend is showing you that you are. You're both scared as hell, but someone's got to make the move, and guys, it's your call. You HAVE to do something about your feelings, or you will feel this way forever. because it will keep happening to you.

The only time this should ever be confusing is if you're 'dorky-magnet-puppy' and she's 'cold-heartless-bitch'. I'll explain: you make perfect friends - even sharing a little affection. in fact, she may even like your company so much, she'll take you places she used to take 'cell-phone-playa' because you're really fun. But, 'dorky-magnet-puppy' is all about 'cold-heartless-bitch' and rarely lets his personality break through for her to see, so she won't see how great he is, then his friend 'good-guy' will sweep her off her feet. 'dorky-magnet-puppy' is not that attractive, because he is afraid, and she knows it - so she won't push. he's a good friend. and 'dorky-magnet-puppy' will take advantage of that friendship. 'good-guy' wouldn't. that's how she knows. to break free from that mold, you have to be 'good-guy'. which you are, because you said you are, so don't worry about this.

on hearing no: it isn't that bad, regardless of whether you're a boy or a girl. It's the not-knowing that kills you. it's the confusion, the hopelessness because you are so afraid and feel timid, that makes you fear more than anything that the other person may not feel the same.
get the fear out of your mind. if you can be this scared, it's likely the other person can be too. you know how shitty this feels. why would you put a girl you like through that, guys?

When people exchange genuine feelings for each other, they are genuine. You have to trust that. No one will ever pretend to care about you if they don't care - you only have to know the difference between what is happening for real, and how you always imagined it could be. this is the difficulty of being young - you aren't sure about anything, all of the time, and it's scary. but honestly:

'all you need is a small test of success, and you will find it suits you'.

--Monique (Better Off Dead)

go get that love, that apple of your eye. moping around isn't going to make anythign happen. it's only going to make you seem pathetic (unattractive) or uninterested (it's hopeless again).

a last world for the lonely, shy girl on this page: If he doesn't know how you feel, he's not going to make a move. A guy would rather die inside, than in front of you. If you like him, flirt. If you think you don't know how - it's bullshit. you just be nice, smile and remind him he's great. and when you talk, you ask him questions and answer his truthfully, but try to keep it a little fun, you know? he'll see that you like him, he'll be confident enough to make a move, and you'll be happy. OR, he won't respond at all, and if you're not coming on like gangbusters, then no big deal - you'll both find a nice new friend that can introduce you to OTHER great guys/girls.
minnesota_chris holy shit that was a long pile of shit. Does anyone read things that are that long? Or am I just ADHD?

Come on, guys, let's not be babies. Let's stick our chin up and take what little we got and make the most of it.
joda I started, with the best intentions of finishing, but I get bored easily. So, the answer to this question, which was probably meant to be rhetorical...

Is no.
in_retrospect What a great way to embarrass my future self.

If you could keep in mind that I was in high school, I would greatly appreciate it.

And I wish we could just go out for tea or be friends or something.
what's it to you?
who go