exist Quintessensual Of course none of us knows that any of the rest of us, whom we have never sensed in the flesh, exists. All we know from blathing together is that some machine made marks, that we could see, on a monitor screen in front of us. We assume there is a connection between that machine and another and a unique connection between that other machine and some individual of flesh and bone and mind that took credit through name and sometimes name and e-mail address (real or imagined) for the marks we see on the monitor screen. But we cannot know whether this facile assumption is valid. So we cannot know from blathing alone whether anybody, other than each of ourselves, exists. If you exist, you must be flesh and bone and mind and the only way I can know you exist is to sense you in the flesh. 991125 ... s is the physical a sufficient definition of reality? 991126 ... jennifer I make the effort not to on most occasions 991216 ... old hick His reality existed because he believed it existed. A social construct that created his world. The generalized other was always there because he never thought to check whether or not He really was. His job was just to manipulate the symbols of the construct and respond accordingly, occasionally wrapping himself aroung the taboo chaos and strangling it back down to the strange attracter that was his fleeting world. I'm tempted to call him pathetic, but then who the hell am I? 000209 ... camille It's what we do... look at this "i" and this "u" we exist "o" because we bother to blather as we listen to fellow blatherers which are listening to our blatherings therefore we "r". we have a purpose....to blatherly exist :o) 000209 ... marjorie i tried to convince you that i did not exist but you wouldn't listen to me and i thought that was proof enough 000415 ... Mika I don't exist My imagination keeps telling me that I do but the reactions of others tell me otherwise 000525 ... thomas if it is just one big twisted dream, I'm glad I spent so much time pulling my pud... 000527 ... kitten on drugs why do we exist? what a trippy little question... 001121 ... Edlong Fuzzekher slip the deep and let ride with all the demons of the mind existance is a futile dream if you ask yourself what it means. I think therefore I am. 010131 ... god nutter butters... do they exist? 010131 ... the boy with the thorn in his side Do I sit and worry and ponder and dream and cry and trip and fall and throw and lose and win and scream and writhe and dip and dance and write and crawl and paint and chip away and dust and shake and breathe and laugh and scrawl and slurp and fret and cause and move or just exist? 010307 ... kx21 without dreams and thoughts? The state of Perfect ignorance or Supreme_enlightenment? 010307 ... kx21 The Mother Nature of I:- I Think therefore I Exist... I Feel therefore I Create... I Act therefore I Survive... I Communicate therefore I Blossom... I Give therefore I see Heaven... 010307 ... like rain. i could die right now and i wouldn't understand any more. it's the greatest open ended question... 010424 ... toruslovesyou Of course, I have come into the skeptic's argument: how can anything be proven to exist externally to me without reference to the senses, which are internal. this seems to trap me in a subjective world.(check out the solution that Bishop Berkeley proposes in his "three dialogues", with a little modernization, it will be found to be a remarkable cure for the fragmentation that is implied by being unable to prove the existence of others, or externals) There are patterns. Specific assumptions ("Truths", or "World Views") alter our experiences by the behaviors they engender. If I was to take a solipsistic approach, and deny the existence of others, then the ensuing behaviors would cause me to be further alienated. If I take a Communistic approach, then, I will have communistic experiences, likewise with Capitalist, Christian, Advaitic, Idealist, Materialist,Muslim, Pagan, Atheist, or-whatnot- approaches. Views held are pragmatic in terms of the experiential reality that follows from them.When there is no real reason to suppose absolutely why or how we exist, and all "modelling" seems arbitrary, I recomend the Aesthetic solution; that is, "do it because it's beautiful! Believe it because it leads to Beauty". what I have come up with after a few years of swimming in a mind of suspended truths is this: I am merely a memory (or a memery, if you like). I am self defined on the basis of what I remember myself as being. As I am in flux, I can alter my context, change my very nature, by adding memories to it, or re-evaluating old ones. The flux of experiential image is the mark of the motion of time. It can be molded into a focus, too, a trajectory can be defined ("linear" time, eh... well a free SELF gets to decide just what direction the line is going in, he he he.) Do that which you wish to remember yourself as having done. Believe that which will have the greatest chance of enabling you to do that which you wish to remember yourself as having done. Lest this sound easy, I have to point out that our deliberate wills first have to be freed from the fetters of desire and instict in order to be effective in this activity.This is a slow process. In fact, to achieve it, one must first construct a "memory" of being able to deliberately construct memory: that is, SET THE PRECEDENT, for future capacity. SO, pick the honestly beautiful (in your experience) as your lamp, and then use science to make life an art. Remember: "i am merely a memory; YOURS and MINE". This I say, today, or rather, blather, come Friends,hither, gather. 010625 ... Dafremen Sigh...Guns you have to register, but minds? Hell no! Anyone can handle one of those right? I enter the above blather into evidence as demonstrating that minds, like guns, can be dangerous if they fall into the wrong hands(er heads). 010625 ... torusstilllovesyou What a thing to say: register minds! Ever heard of the thought police? I'll tell you what the wrong heads are: the wrong heads are those of the people who wish to maintain a status quo (reality construct) that has outstayed it's usefulness for their own personal profit. the right heads are those that wish to emancipate people from what's keeping them lonely, afraid, angry, hopeless, recognizing that what benefits All, benefits self. Besides, "dangerous minds " are required to counteract even more dangerous mindlessnesses. Register this, you cynical shmuck!!! 010625 ... Dafremen Oh sure....perception and existence are subjective....the reality and extent of human suffering are subjective...HEll even "dangerous minds" you say is a term which is subjective. But lo and behold...suprise suprise El Primo Cerebro Fantastico there says "What benefits all..benefits self.." and actually BELIEVES that "what benefits all" is NOT a subjective statement. A crappy political sciences paperback...that's where you need to blather...of course be sure it's listed under fiction. Wouldn't want anyone actually TRYING that crap... ~~shudders~~ 010625 ... birdmad sometimes i wish i didn't 010625 ... Casey I'm not really here, I'm just part of some guy's dream who I have never met. Either that or I am part of a T.V. show that I don't know about, like the The Truman Show movie 010625 ... Dafremen Hahaha...part of a T.V. show...that's ridiculous.(ssssss...I think he might be on to us...maintain radio silence until further notice...ksssssst)Where do you ever come UP with these things? 010626 ... torusfeelsmisunderstood I don't believe I ever said that everything was subjective. everything that we think about everything is, tho. what you may believe won't change the size or shape of a rock, but it will change the context that the rock appears in, and if you are a depressed person, it helps to know that this is not an absolute state of being, but rather that it can be modified by shifting worldviews. IT will always remain IT, no doubt, but we'll allways think differently about IT; that is out nature. That is our CHOICE. 010702 ... torusclarifieshispreviousstatement. in relation to the above, when I say that "this is not an absolute situation", I was refering to the fact of depression, not the rock. forgive the confusing punctuation... he he he :) 010702 ... torusmentionsthecatfish Oh! by the way, did I mention the catfish? 010702 ... scheherazade yesterday i was in there, although why i went in there i'm not quite sure, and i started staring at the mirror - or more accurately, i was staring at myself in the mirror. this sounds really bad, but i couldn't take my eyes off myself, analysing my face, my eyes, my nose, lips, ears, everything, and then i focussed on my whole face. you know when you look at something, but you don't actually see anything? that's what i was doing. but i was staring for such a long time that i began to think there was no glass in front of me. i could see every round and crease of my face prefectly, like i could reach out and touch and the feel of it would correspond with what my eyes were telling me. it was so real, the thing that was in front of me, like i was looking at someone in front of me, with nothing between us, and there was nothing to stop the only thing between us but air. then i ran away. i'm not sure i like the idea of me being 'real'. 010818 ... distorted tendencies I'm glad that you exist. If there was someone like you, it wouldn't be the same. It has to be /your/ existance. Yours only. No substitutes please. 010823 ... Dafremen Hmm Peyton? Db? Not really sure who u iz. In any event torus do0d, here's the way I see it: What IS...IS. Not only that, but it IS the way it IS, regardless of how YOU, I or anyone else perceives it as being. Period. There is no subjective reality anymore than there was a Captain Ahab or a White Whale named Moby Dick. Just as Melville's novel sprang from his mind, so to do our perceptions. His novel is fictional and so is anything which we perceive as being other than it actually IS. Here you might contend that it is only through our perceptions that we can make determinations about real and unreal. And although I can't argue with the SEMANTIC correctness of that statement, I do take issue with it's implication. What it implies is that we can know no more of reality than that which is subjectively perceived as being real. THAT is absolute poppycock. Have you seen the planet Pluto? Probably not, but SOMEONE did. Someone ELSE perceived that it existed, shared that information and OTHERS verified that perception. Once enough individuals could verify it's existence through their OWN subjective inquiries, a common OBJECTIVE perception was established, Pluto exists. We can't see it, but it's there. If I see something that ISN'T there... are my perceptions flawed? Perhaps...or perhaps I've discovered something through subjective inquiry that is real, but has gone undiscovered. In ANY event, Pluto existed long before that guy saw it. His perception was NOT required for Pluto's existence. Pluto existed, objectively...the entire time. There IS no subjective reality. There is objective reality and subjective perception and the existence of absolutely nothing will change simply because we don't believe or perceive. Rather, our goal should be to verify the objective reality of that which we subjectively perceive. To claim that there is subjective reality/existence is akin to claiming that the world disappears because an ostrich hides it's head in the sand. Tell that to the world, or anyone looking for tasty rotisserie gold ostrich. 010824 ... the_engineer do i really? or am i just dreaming? 011010 ... SuicidalAngel It's weird how I Hate everyone all of a sudden. I don't know why, I just realized I was never that important. I was always pushed to the back of the line. I'm just a place holder until something better comes along. I look at pictures of myself and look at them as an outsider looking in. Knowing what goes on - just under that skull. The pain that flows out from behind those decieving eyes. The wounded and healed arms. The bruised knuckes and hands that have written things such as this, yet carry on, as if I don't know what's going on. I just want others to feel or know my pain. Realize the point blank hints I have told them and simpathise when I become honest. But no - carry on. I dont exist I guess - or<