got_nobody_to_love Doar and yet i have everyone to love. 050714 ... akuma aoi ...and considering what happens everytime i think i do, it's probably just as well 050714 ... Lemon_Soda To expound briefly on wht Doar had to say... There is an UNLIMITED amount of people for you to LOVE! "Well, I only want to love someone if they'll love me back." Brother, your goin' to live a sad, lonely life if thats your attitude. "Well, then I guess what I meant to say is Iwant someone to love me" You'll never really know for sure about this with anyone, so you've essentially asked for something you can't have. Nowonder so many people are depressed. The answer is easy. The only way you'll know that anybody out there at all is loved is if you love them yourself. You just don't GET TO KNOW that your loved. But you can trust that since your willing to love others, that someone out there is willing to love you. LORD what fools these mortals be. *has a meglamanaical streak* 050714 ... unhinged my_shell on red so i_will_always_love_you sad that distance and drugs had to drive us apart thinking about you so much lately makes me realize how crazy i am that i walked away from you the way that i did because i loved you so much it doesn't seem to make much sense to me now and then i think about the things the coke made you say to me (which maybe were just things you would have been thinking anyways) the coke would have soaked up all the love i had for you turned it into hate i like to believe that it was just the coke talking got nobody to love cause i threw you away or i disappeared up your nose so how many times is a person supposed to give and give and give til they end up empty? how many times do you make the same mistake in the name of love? trying to keep things open, but so often i ultimately feel better shut off. 050714 ... akuma aoi well, megalomania is fine if you can swing it, but answer me this: what good is it to pour out your love only to have it spit back in your face or spilled down the drain. is there some unseen nobility in futility and waste? 050714 ... Lemon_Soda Ask Jesus. Just kidding. No, seriously, thats a valid concern. Why should I love someone if they won't appreciate it or even hate me for it? Why should I raise my kids when their just going to piss me off and not do what I ask them to anyway? Why should I be a friend to anybody if one day they'll do something that pisses me off? Why should I love anyone if they might hurt me because of it? Wheres the reward? Wheres the garuntee? There are no garuntees in life. Hell, theres no garuntee you'll even GET a life(stillborn, aborted etc) . Bad shit happens. You can't go through life expecting everything to go the way you plan it to because it won't. You know ahead of time that things, anything, might not work out. You KNOW this. But thats not a definite. Thats not the end all be all. Things might not work out, but on the same note they might work out great. Hell, better thn you ever could imagine. The only way it won't is if you don't even give it a chance. The only way you can possibly fail is if you give up. The only way you'll never find love is if you choose not to look for it, even fight against receiving it. "What if i go my whole life trying and trying and trying and it never happens? What if all is for not?" Fiirst off, your not going to know that for sure until your dead. Second, tell me you never smiled in your life, had fun, or knew peace for even a moment and I'll call you a liar. People are as happy or angry or sad as they make up their minds to be. You've been delt a shitty hand? Atleast you still have a chance of playing the next one. Once you decide that everyone is out to hurt you and the world sucks forever then thats exactly how its going to be. I'll forgive the world forever and always, every time. I know I'm going to get hurt, I know that shit isn't going to go my way sometimes, I know I might one day die feeling depressed and alone. But I might not. If life is a journey, are you the kind of person who grumbles every mile of the way, waiting for flattires, bad weather, and boken plans? Do you kick everyone out of your car because you don't like their opinion and refuse to pick anyone up? Or do you sing along to the radio, eat snacks, and enjoy the scenic route? Do people look forward to driving a few miles with you, and do you look to give a ride to somebody who really needs? Is really easy to hate everyone. Real easy to give in to how things have happened that you hated or hurt you. I'd say its the path of least resistance. But that way is so nihilistically depressing I can't give it a second thought. Without the efforts of people who arn't afraid to love unconditionally we wouldn't have any of the good things about our world. Alot of those good things you might not have experienced yet, but their out there. Things like libraries, freindships, and family. Things like picnics, parties, and quiet walks. Beautiful parks, sculpture, and a trip to the movies. A kind word from a stranger. There are few things in this world that are black and white for me but this iis one of them. If there is no hope for a better run of it, what good is a person? What contribution does anyone make toward the world they wish this coud be if they can't act to make it so? How could you ever expect someone to love and keep you if you arn't willing to do the same? 050716 ... unhinged 1) pessimist_and_optimist 2) i have a couple thoughts on your thoughts that i'm sure would only come out as petulant whining on these pages so i'm not going to state them. 3) i'm glad that you are happy and positive. i'm glad that you can let things roll off like water off a duck's back. i suspect you are one of those people that isn't capable of being truly depressed. i'm glad for you if that's the case. 4) i believe that no one deserves to be forgiven for the same things twenty or one hundred or fifty billion times. i can forgive you once or twice; i even used to forgive you no matter what. until i ran into the people that taught me unconditional_forgiveness is just another way for me to hurt myself. 5) i'm going to stop now. see 2). 050716 ... Lemon_Soda Unconditional forgiveness doesn't mean you should let people walk all over you, or that you should except the same kind of treatment over and over again. Only a fool would forgive someone who likes to hurt them and then stick around for more of the same. What I'm talking about is when a person judges all future relationships on a past one, or all future experiences on the same. You have a horrible day the first day you go to the fair or six flags or wherever. That doesn't mean you'd have a horrible day the next time, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't check out Busch Gardens because Neverland sucked ass. Hurt me once, your bad. Hurt me twice, mine. Hurt me a third time, I deserve it. But no where in that equation does it say you hurt me therefore everyone else will. Am i easy going? Yes. Does shit rooll off my back pretty easy? Depends on how much it hurt. And I DO get hurt. I recently dealt with one of the most depressing times of my life. My fiance and I split with out a plan of ever getting back together. I love her. I still do. But I refused to leave my room, I destroyed alot of my possesions and I cried myself to sleep for two weeks straight. Yes, I get depressed. Will i never date again? Will I blame love and women and have nothing t o do with them ever again? Will i hate her for not loving me anymore? No. I'll wish my old love well and go on that shopping trip with Rita on monday with a hope to find a new love. I know. You don't feel like agreeing with me. Maybe even typing a response I've convinced you to run in the opposite direction even faster. I'm not you. I don't have your experiences or your feelings or what all those things have convinced you of. Alls i know is despite hardship, hurt, and loss, I haven't forgotten the things that make me smile, and I haven't forgotten that there is more of them out there to find. Maybe your done looking. Maybe you know all you need to about life and your happy with the decision you've come too about it. I know I am. As for forgiveness, all that is is permission for you to not dwell on being wronged anymore. It isn't saying they won't do it again, nor is it saying it was okay it happened. What it says is you except it happened and nolonger let its memory rule you. Oh, and I don't think your whining. You've probably had it pretty rough, and alot of bad memories stand out in your mind, all the time. Its a hard thing knowing from first hand experience that things like that can happen, and so frequently. I won't ever pretend to know anything about it. I only know about the things I've felt and shared and experienced, and that probably isn't worth much to you, or how hollow my words seem without the emotional experiences to back them up. In the end, I suppose the only arguement i can make was done by Shakespear a long time ago: "Nothing is bad or good, only by thinking it do we make it so." So really, any one person is responsible for how they feel. Do_as_thou_wilt Thou_art_god 050716 ... . . 050718 ... akuma aoi if people insist on blowing sunshine up my ass, i should just hope they don't try to play innocent if i get colon cancer from all the excess UV radiation, y'know. 050718 ... akuma aoi how many times must i fail before acknowledging that i am a failure? treated like an idiot before i realise i really must be one? disposed of to recognise my inherent expendability? should i keep going out on a limb when there's never been a time that it didn't get cut off behind me? and don't fucking oversimplify, i'm not saying i never had a happy moment, so let me kill that straw-man aspect of your argument right here and now... i'm saying that the price i've paid for the few good moments that i have known was more disproportionate than not. i am old, i am terrible and i am tired. it was easier and safer when i left my heart out of it. 050718 ... unhinged i guess the difficulty of it for me now is that i want to believe that people are inherently good but my experience has overwhelmingly shown me otherwise yes, i have met a few people that returned my sentiments and i'm sure my state of mind blocks a lot of things; but i agree with akuma; the cost benefit analysis i've done over the years of being open and receptive seems to point to NOT being open and receptive cause 9 times out of 10 it will easily become a slap in the face. john_and_i for example. i kept him at arm's length because i knew from my past experience with boys like him that there was a 90% chance it would end up the same. with those kinds of odds, it really was a wise decision. numbers don't lie; i was reduced to listening friend status rather quickly so when it finally came out in the wash that what i suspected all along was devastatingly true it didn't take too long for that stab in the heart to heal over. i know what you'll say. you can't expect people to climb your walls. but why shouldn't i erect them if i know that i would easily be ripped to shreds if they weren't there? see, i lowered them enough to let him in but if he doesn't want to take the final step i'm not going to coax and convince him. this circular arguement is tiring me. but i too have had the limb cut off from behind me plenty of times now to realize that it is sheer stupidity to place myself there again. and eventually i'll heal enough that i'll forget limbs are a bad place to be and climb out on a new one. i am the baby bird that gets pushed out of the nest because of her reluctance to fly. 050718 ... .fallen I have loved. I do love. I will continue to love.... but I still think the cost is too high, the installment plan doesn't quite work especially with the skyrocketting interest rates, and there is no warranty ...yet still it gets me everytime... the lesson never sticks "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" and somehow I am the bad guy. 050718 ... akuma aoi bingo. 050718 ... Lemon_Soda You are not a failure until you give up. Just because your treated like an idiot, doesn't mean you are one. Find someone who really values you, not someone with urges they can get you to satiate. You were ready, willing, and generous with your hearts. You wanted something or someone so much that you invested way to quickly and way to much in what looked good at the time. You are all romantics at heart, and have a very poetic expectations about what love means and how your partner is supposed to act. You have not received what you wanted and infact may have received abuse, either real or assumed. Your experiences have reinforced to you that these things are to be expected anytime you attempt a relationship. On rare occasions your hope for something better or an infatuation with an individual slips through this wall of bitter depression and you honestly try. However, over time, you see exhibited in your partner traits you find unattractive. You slowly lose patience with their inability to think the same way or about the same things. Obvious trains of thought escape them and because you can't except that noone thinks the same way, it is decided they are doing it on purpose, simply to hurt you. Accidents and miscommunications occur, and because of your past you assume they were malicious or cold, somehow comprimising your or their standing. Important dates to you are forgotten, as are the occasional offhanded assurance. Mixed together in the tumult of your battered ego and afflicted conciousness they become your enemy and you act accordingly, fulfilling your own prophecy. The only people who last any length of time walk on eggshells and learn to fear your wrath more then they crave your love. This inevitably angers you because they've "changed". I agree. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. That means change how your doing it, not quit. Did you consider approaching relationships differently instead of not at all? I have a hard time believing that "its always them". You picked them. What did you base that decision on? Do you see any similarities in the people you've been with? How easy are you with the privilages of a relationship? Do you have a tendency to start going steady immediatly, or do you wait several months and just hang out? How often have you sat down and established yourself in basic face to face communication? Did you discuss your problems, or argue about them? Did you consider their point of view? Did they consider yours? Was the love you craved projected onto them or genuinely returned? Be objective. Work over in your mind how you get into these relationships. Decide ahead of time on a standard for the people your willing to date and wait until they've proven equal to it before you commit. Setting out ahead of time whats important to you goes a long way in helping you find the right person. Don't be subject to the whims of your fancy. Alot of people who are incredibly attractive are the worst choice for a long term relationship. Thats another thing, anytime you start to date someone, find out where they hope it'll go. You'll be surprised how many people are just "playing it by ear" or honestly just want to have a good time for awhile and move on. Even the pace of your relationship should be discussed, and never except a "we'll see how it goes" answer. Their just avoiding the question and don't want to tell you how they really feel. Communication is key. Unless I spend the majority of the next 10 years manipulating your lives to include good experience, one after another, I can't undue the way life and chance has programmed you to act, nor would I want to. Only you can do that. We train our bodies, we train our minds, and yes, we train our hearts. Your all great blatherers. You write passionately and with sincerity. None of you are the "Bad Guy". But niether where they. They were confused, or selfish, or immature. Common failings of every human heart. I apologize if my opinions and advice offend you. I did not think the content so volatile. Please be assured that I donot hold anyone, including myself, above or below anyone else. We are only human, after all. 050718 ... emanon let's say this together and try not to seem patronizing. "of course you are right, dear, you are always right" 050718 ... akuma aoi why else would i bear such a rainbow of shit-stains on my heart if i was not, in some way i have yet to identify, at fault. defective, in some sense of the word. i mean, what other reason could it be that every time i have let my guard down, i have been made to regret it? i have never assumed i was completely innocent of anything, just not as guilty as the pries i have paid would suggest...so let's put straw-man number two to rest right here. but of any of those i have ever professed to love, i have been more guilty of reacting badly when hurt than being the initiator of any hurt feelings. If i ever lied to someone i loved it wasn't to hide some betrayal i committed against them, but out of a mixture of fear and embarassment over the sins of my past. (and my past is a funny thing, as it is just outrageous enough to be hard to believe when i admit it up front, but easy enough to believe when someone else feels like telling tales out of school) if i've ever uttered a cruel word toward someone i loved, it was not something i said simply to be arbitrarily and capriciously mean, but my reaction to the same. outside of my seemingly innate lack of intrinsic value, i cannot fathom what i may have done to merit having been variously used, cheated on, lied to and otherwise jerked around by those i valued most. i'm not fishing for compliments or encouragement, i'm looking for some sort of answer that isn't wrapped in shrink-couch aphorisms and feel-good platitudes 050718 ... Doar you know, i just might cross some people off the list of lovin.... check check :) 050718 ... unhinged i never said i blame others for being stuck in this hole, quite the contrary in fact. i solidly blame myself for every person that treats me like shit. i must have done something for them to think it's okay to treat me like that. has to be me, not them. i am not a good communicator when it comes to my feelings, so see, it's me, not them. but there are people on this planet, albeit a handful, who don't need words to understand what i'm feeling. i don't need to spell it out in plain language that they can twist around to suit their needs. those are the only people that receive uncondtional_forgiveness from me. how much shit do i have to wade through before i find clean water? 050719 ... Lemon_Soda Its always a mistake to put expectations on future happiness, so I really couldn't tell you the time line on that. For me, I've been trying to convince you of an outlook instead of really listening to were your at, and for that I apologize. Maybe relationships arn't the best thing right now. Back to the topic of this blath, if loving someone else is out for now, then try to love yourself. Cultivate your talents. Work on fleshing yourself out. Make a list of ways to improve yourself, mentally, physically, and socially. Find the activities and pursuits you can see yourself enjoying still twenty years down the road and pursue them with abandon. Exercise. Decide who you want to be instead of letting life do it for you and go for it. Trust me, the more solid your personal foundation is, the better equipped you'll be in the future to start going for a mate again. The thing that gets alot of people is they believe it requires atleast one other person to be whole. This is not true. It would serve you well to be happy in your own routines, doing your own thing. Eventually, someone who fits perfectly, complimenting the host of it, will come along, and things will happen without you even realising it. Sitting down and talking out your problems out loud with yourself may help as well. Make it an extended conversation. One of my instructors(buddhist) is acting as my spiritual advisor right now and after long talks over, strangley enough this blath, and some of my other problems, he was the one to suggest I wasn't working with what you were giving me but contesting it. He also said that anytime he had an issue that would constantly rise in his mind and assail him, he would sit down and talk out this problem with himself, speaking to himself outloud until he gave himself a solution that made him happy. 050719 ... jefferson airplane don't you want somebody to love don't you need somebody to love wouldn't you love somebody to love you better find somebody to love 050719 ... Lemon_Soda Akuma Maybe you didn't do anything to deserve it. 050719 ... akuma aoi not to be argumentative, but just to illustrate how deep this neurosis of mine runs: the messed up possibility about that, about not having done anythind to deserve it is that it suggests that i wasn't worth NOT doing it to, that on my own merits, i simply did not deserve any better than what i got. In other words, i've reached the point where i can only surmise that if my repeated failures regarding "love" (hah!) aren't some great karmic whiplash for all of the various evil and shady shit i used to pull in general, then it must simply mean that I suck. pretty fucked up, isn't it? 050719 ... Lemon_Soda That would make perfect sense if you based your self esteem on other peoples opinions. 050719 ... Lemon_Soda And who knows, maybe thats the case. Now that you know, what are you going to do about it? I would suggest activities based on self empowerment and improvement if the general opinion of the world is that I'm a disposable loser and I'd like to change it. 050719 ... hsg u 050719 ... blue devil / mad bird perception is, to an extent, reality. if i inure myself to the opinions of others, i risk arrogance. We impact the world around us and it impacts us. physically psychologically emotionally Locard's principle at the psycho-social level. the world is my mirror i perceive myself as i am reflected back by that mirror. sometimes it keeps me properly grounded other times it grinds me into the dirt 050720 ... pSyche my own reflection hates me. 050720 ... *Amy* are you still thinking about me? I don`t know if I am thinking about you...I don´t know if I care... 050720 ... Doar wow! 050725 ... Lemon_Soda Hope everyone is doing better. Drop me a line or blath here if you'd like to reopen discussion. 080123 ... Doar My first reaction at having read this blathe was to say in my head, "Seriously?" Then the more balanced reaction was to say, This difference of souls can be rectified. We all come from a background, however it has harmed us. i am not a mediator, nor a common ground. but i am a single thought meant to try to bring some common ground between us. What are your hidden fears, your escapes, your melt down? . 111111 ... Doar I love you my brothers. from far away. . 111111 ... Lemon_Soda I don't know. 111112 what's it to you? who go blather from