messianac_complex stork daddy did you know that throughout history there have been many messengers of the Truth? some have been recognized (buddha, jesus, mohammed, dafremen) and some haven't. what matters though is that we all learn to love arcane numbers and astrology. if you do this first, the love and understanding will follow, trust me. 031115 ... oldephebe hey stork - daf really believes in his Path..it's cool if you don't agree with him..but denigrating him.what's the point? Why impoverish the debate or coluquy with derisive attacks. He will never hear your voice now. I take it that you'd like to disabuse him of some of his fervently held beliefs. How will you two hear one another amidst the howling spears. I don't agree with some of what you or daf speak about but i don't see the need to expend valuable emotional reserves or cognition to the service of petulant, pubescent riposts. Just a thought for your esteemed mastication. You can chew on that or poop all over it. Peace ... 031115 ... stork daddy first of all, you weren't here for the i'm going to attack people for no reason daf who would then rationalize his stances by saying they were language games. so now i play the same games with him to see if he'll live up to his message and just let it slide. so far he hasn't. he can't leave his "ego" behind. that's too bad. i know there's no hope for me, but i'm trying to save him...the least you could do is thank me. 031115 ... x ironic, phebe 031115 ... stork daddy and was it a coliquy or a debate? and were the riposts petulant or pubescent? like most of what you have to say, it's fifty cents of meaning jammed into fifty dollars worth of words. 031115 ... stork daddy because what you're saying now is what i used to say to daf. things must work out that way...because now i seem the same way to you. 031115 ... oldephebe the least i could do is merely acknowledge the sovreignity of your personhood to staple yourself to any stance or opinion you feel is valid..and that is all i will do..i have however read through many of daf's earlier truculent and tyrannical incarnations..maybe he has changed..time will tell.. peace, 031115 ... oldephebe maybe i'm obtuse this evening x..could you elucidate on this idea of irony as it relates to my words directed at the irascible and yet clearly bright stork? 031115 ... oldephebe oh wait i think you may mean when those words juxtaposed against daf's earlier incarnations..and especially esconced none too cozily against my howling effusive estuaries of manic solipsism produces a jarring dissonance..if that's the case then yeah.. ironic ... 031115 ... stork daddy seriously dude...it's like you're talking in klingon. the irony of this post is that it seems i'm the one with the messianac complex. 031115 ... oldephebe you are full of appraisals and opinion..might i suggest a little interiorization? and yes my pleonastic proclivities produces piles of exasperating ire..what can i say..in my effort to overtly qualifiy and delineate my assertions i wind up inadvertantly obfuscating my argument..that's why i prefer poetry over these learned spumes of conjecture..the language of the soul is much easier to weild for me than the language of dissection, codification and qualification..well i've just knitted one more thread in the interstitial bodice of blatherdom as it relates to the whole messianic mind set thing.. oh and klingon is an honorable martial language..visceral and serrating in it's knife through flesh clarity..yeah i get what you mean.."serrated blades of what he said"..where am i going with this? still though unless you are identifying yourself as "x" (and i'll acknowledge the rather prescient conclusion you've drawn) could the blather who identified himself/herself as "x" elucidate his/her contention of ironic? ... 031115 ... oldephebe oh stork in answer to your queries regarding my rhetorical proclivities..it was both for each..yeah me of the maddening adverbial modifiers..so yes petty petulant and pubescent all inhere..debate shifts under its protean duress to become colloquy...like all things in the realm of human..attribution of absolutes is inadequate..we are complexly furcated beings and so we must use an ascription or characterization modus equal to the task.. 031115 ... stork daddy here's an idea...since you like the poetic so much, why do you require elucidation from x? also, it would help if you didn't lose track of your referents halfway through your sentences. 031115 ... x ironic in that one would expect that since you were complaining that stork daddy was being insulting as a mode of debate rather than spewing intellectual reasoning, that you would not be doing the same thing that you accused him of. that wasn't the case. 031115 ... stork daddy and what exactly is the protean duress of debate? you've given debate the posession of protean duress without really defining what the protean duress is. you already said that debates shifts. protean means it's a shifting duress. so is the duress shifting, or is the result of the duress that a shift occurs? basically you said, that debate shifts under its shifting duress. and my blathes towards daf never become conversational, they're always debates from my end. i'd rather throw you than know you. also, the main thing that was rhetorical were my questions. but thanks for answering them anyways. those were answers right? 031115 ... stork daddy anyways...i hope at this point...as far as you've gotten...that you see the irony in your post. daf still hasn't. and yes...no one likes being ironic if they don't mean to be...and that doesn't stop it from happening to me. but then again...i don't go around telling other people to look more inside themselves. 031115 ... stork daddy although i am passive agressive and will not hesitate to attack when engaged. 031115 ... stork daddy actually...if it will quiet you...i'm a bastard with a mean streak. now piss off. 031115 ... oldephebe first thing - x you are ascribing a pejoritive apellation to what is merely an albeit subjective characterization of the uncharitable or as all reasonable folk will agree..in that context an unwarranted volley of derisive comments..i do not see the asription of ironic as it relates to my initial response as accurate. stork do not presume to suggest or dictate the terms of any argument or contention i make for me..i do not see the relationship ironic advesarial or othersise between me prefering poetic insularity over encephalic posturing..it is an ineptly drawn syllogism. You are weakening your position by resorting to such an unimaginative and obtuse tactic. and yes my circuitous sprawl of contentions is..well for clarities sake..impeding my efforts at clarity and argument..take it or leave it..your a bright guy..sift through the chaff to find the shimmering stalk. Now really do i need to draw a dotted line between the sequence of alterations an argument under goes in the forge of.debate? Reasoned debate is of course always under duress..the contention of two or more advesarial wills..the momentum of debate shifts as volleys and salvos are exchanged. Then, after or sometimes concurrently the debate..the parameters and even the timbre of it changes. The borders of the argument break open between borders of broken stone. What starts out as a facilely flung contention framed in malice or hurled out of the ire produced by an insecure mind, becomes a grudging attempt to hear the other, to acknowledge that the parties are engaged in this ardous engagement to sculpt a reasoned consensus and not merely spurt venom at the advesary who dared to disagree. By reasoned consensus I do not mean to abdicate entirely ones intial contention, only to acknowledge by hearing the other that there are other equally virtuous or valid experiences or aspects to the other that cannot be blithely or arrogantly dismissed simply in the service of ego or maintaining the percieved advesarial contours of apprehension, therefore making it easier to reconcile the inadequacy of ones own argument and allow one to shore himself up in a caricature of bravodo thereby perceptually negating the other. I believe intially your answers were not rhetorical, but this assertion is merely being exploited for the expediancy of casting a few irrevelent shots that again do not imbue your argument (such that it is)with any advantage and again shows the pubescent petulence you mistake for reasoned argumentation. You are not ready to dictate the terms of argumentation to me. Please let us put this spate of protracted pettiness to bed. You're a bright guy, why become mired in this pointlessness? Argue the merits of your argument but leave it at that. Oh and you know full well that in the crucible of competition and contention the combatants and even the initial fireseed of disagreement undergoes change. It is the nature of the beast. Seriously stork did you really think you were striking a telling blow? Clearly you thrive on contention..i am doing playing with you for now. 031115 ... oldephebe meant to say i believe that initially your questions were not rhetorical..i could be wrong..but i don't think so.. 031115 ... oldephebe and as far as you preferring to throw me than know me..well son, you would do well to honor the distance that separates us and never consider any physical entreaty or encroachment..i do not play with words in person. This is neither a threat nor bravado. You'd rather not know me? Based on a few hurredly typed lines..how facile and disingenuous..clearly you are obviously bright but you have legues to swim in the sea of enlightenment. They are irrevelent to your argument and you have unknowingly weakened your position. At this point i see no point in continuing this....if you are interesting in reasoned and mature debate then fine.. 031115 ... x translation, without the $50 words (phew! after extensive spellchecking!): ---first thing - x you are attributing a negative label to what is only a skewed description of the hurtful, or as all reasonable folk will agree ...in that context an unnecessary stream of wounding comments. I do not see the attribution of “ironic” as it relates to my initial response as accurate.--- even that is ridiculous. a simpler translation is that what stork daddy said was hurtful, and what phebe said was not. in so many (too many!) words, i believe oldphebe was only saying that it was not the same thing. no logic, nor arguement. just some expensive words of which some were used incorrectly, and about 75% were spelled incorrectly. Sorry, that doesn't impress me. 031116 ... x oh and i almost forgot- throwing in "as all reasonable folk will agree"!! please. who is the judge of what is reasonable? the majority? the majority of what group? i suppose the world is flat as well. ferchrissakes! try harder. 031116 ... stork daddy inept syllogisms son. classic. and you still don't see the irony? using words usually used in dissertations of great depth doesn't automatically lend to what you're saying any great depth. my point was that you saying you preferred the poetic and the inexact since you obstructed your own meaning and confused yourself so often was at odds with your demanding rigourous mutual communication with x on her point. i merely wondered why you seemed to prefer something else in reguards to x's comment. i love how you think that other people should clarify their ideas while yours remain unclarified in the way your words relate to each other in multiple or vague ways. throwing in unearned words like petulant and inept is of course strictly logical. my attacks were derisive if viewed from a limited perspective. of course, that isn't the perspective i'm attacking from. this goes further than recent blathes. even if it didn't, you have to look at the logic of my blathes. they aren't merely personal attacks, i'm bringing up reasoned points and daf's basically saying no fair, let me speak my piece without criticism. that's a fair position to hold, but is hypocritical when viewed in light of his earlier stances. to say my attacks are devoid of reason for the sole reason of their being derisive pretty much takes all of the wind out of your little tirades which take most of their strength from the negative connotations of such words as petulant, pubescent and inept, rather than pointing out any contradictions or describing any of these supposed failed syllogisms. of course i never made any strict syllogism, i merely said that if preference meant that you generally preferred the vague and negotiable aspects of communication over the rigourous and exact demands of argument, then it was wrong of you to say you preferred the poetic and then prefer otherwise in your communication with x. and that implied syllogism, is true if the initial premises hold. since you gave no reason to hold any other initial premises, it can't really be called false. if i failed to take you correctly, it is most likely because in all your words, most of them redundant, you failed to qualify your statements, a supposed strength of yours. 031117 ... oldephebe *YAWN* well, stork we are leagues apart on this one..unlike daf i soon weary of the whole antipodal ellipsis of regurgitated spatter. we are making the same argument over and over again. I still stand by every contention. I am the irrevocable center of my universe and no one determines or dictates to me the terms or merit or lack thereof my argument. Here's a suggestion, simply skip my blathes if they induce such an acute rectal itching. Some of what you write on other blathes intrigues me. The petulant bile and the absurdist attempts at ooo imperial ire are laughable. My vocabulary to me is average, i have written this way since i was 13 or 14, i do not use a dictionary or thesaurus, nor do i proofread or write my blathes out before hand, i just simply exhale extemporaneously what is in me to say. This is a wasteful expendtiure of my already severely taxed time, and or emotional and cognitive reserves. While i would like to aspire to perfect indifference i will say that critique of someones rhetorical eccentricities does not constitute intelligent argumentation, it is an inept and insincere modus period. Roar it out your rectum spork, it's all b b's against a brick wall to me. I have already acknowledged many times in this and on other blathes that some of my writing is vague and verbose. I think the term i used was an ungracious pleonastic sprawl of insular and byzantine rumination..yep that's me..and i ain't changin'. I can write in other modes but..since i am neither making a pitch before beleagured venture capitalists nor trying to extract an advantage dishonestly for the avaristic and aquisitive gleam in my employers rotential eyes..what ya see is what ya get..deal with it or don't read any of it. Stop thrashing around impotently like a tyrannical toddler. I think (and therefore am acknowledging the liklihood of fallibility and/or error in the following assertion) that there are sympathetically reverberating aspects of you and daf's natures that collide and induce the cellular ire and unqualified disputations that distinguish some of you guys sometimes entertaining other times apalling rhetorically romps through the morass of (and i would include myself in that dubious and potentially erroneous conjecture) ME ME ME myopic retch fests. I think dissent is vital, neccessary even. I feel totally comfortable in meeting the power or illusory projection thereof of an advesries argument. But in our insecure imerative/need to be right we inevitably wind up expectorating bile and venom and dogmatic postures towards the other. In short, we talk at one another and never empower ourselves nor the other to listen. I will not be posting any more to this page, perhaps i am just as dishonorably arrogant and megalomaniacally assured of the inviolable certainty of some of my arguments. maybe..but i try to argue out of place of equanimity and integrity. so spork feel free to continue expectorating....make your rancid ripost and or parting salvo.. I want to say i concede NOTHING to you and your again inept, inept arguments, i want to say also that unlike you thrashing absurdly in your shallows of insecurity, i can acknowledge that i've enjoyed and even been expanded by some of your ruminations in blather. My metaphysical riffs and philosophical posing aside, the voice of the mystic and prophet will always be with us..the charlatans the prestidigitators the tantric theft of Being of and all that..The redolence of rotting fish begins between the ears and it cannot touch those who do not invest the other with the authority and power to do so. You're right on one thing though, i was not here to be an unwitting casualty or recipience of dafs earlier gyrations and tantrums. I have though viscerally disagreed with him. We have exchanged our salvos, we have even agreed with one another at times. I probably do not mean one strand of a rodents hirsuit rectum to daf. I had and or have no advantage or favor to gain, nor do i desire any. I still assert that your inaugeral salvo at the top of this page was unwarranted, nothing you fecally excrete will change that. Period. Sometimes though daf does deserve to be taken down a peg or two. One thing has nothing to do with the other. You can't win. I do not give you authority to. Spit and spatter and apply some salve to that rectal chaff 'cause i ain't goin' no where spork. If our words collide in the future, so be it. God this is so petty..i'm being petty..and yet we must all shore up our egos and imperiously assert our personal authority. Personal authority begins and ends within the tomb of ones ears. Period. Enough! I will not be clicking on this page again. I normally end my blathes with peace..but spork you are such an irredeemably abhorrent little weed that i will choose to extend to no courtesy or respect. I wonder what really lurks behind that tremulous facade of projected scornful disdain? What is it masking? oh and this is just for anyone one..there are casts of heart, human virtues (the breath of allah, god, jehova, jesus, incarnation(s) of the budha..but not the psychic donkey, heh heh) that transcend our great threshing engines of cognition, what we ascribe as the raw product of right brain cogitation. Do i possess that knowledge? Am I endowed or imbued with the authority to reflexively repudiate someone on his sojourn to the or his personal Truth? No i am not. The crust of humility is difficult to ingest..it goes down hard. You are ready for combat spork, but you are not ready for winning. Sheer vituperative onslaught creates nothing in the others heart, it leaves its mark upon the ground. It is a dead sound like tin pelting the pavement with its pale, colorless sound..We are all driven, Driven by pain to shout down the other. I hear your pain spork. You have or have not heard mine. And what do we each walk away with? Some shallow and illusory prick of self-esteem at our own perception of victory. Ah but see spork, we both have lost, beacuse we both have refused to listen to one another. So i'll just dislodge myself from this intractable intertia of spite and scorn. Guess what? I do wish you peace. I was wrong to refer to you as an abhorrent little weed. I hereby empower you to defecate upon everything I've said. It no longer important to me now. peace, 031117 ... oldephebe oh and x? all of my words were used correctly, although probably 50% of them were superfluous and only served to obfuscate the alaredy circuitous sprawling nature/meaning of my sentences What does or does not impress you is an irrevelancy as far as i am concerned. Neither you or spork are prepared to argue honestly beyond the borders of antipodal antipathy. I am not sorry that I again fail to see the merit of your ostensibly earnest and clever but invariably inadeuqate response. And no I will not anally qualify that remark. Can't you smell it? The stench of a mind aspiring to Aristotlean elegance and cogency. I am not sorry that your words while clever, do not constitute for me what some would acribe as impressive. Yes and now i am delving into the petulant and indignant shallows in order to perhaps butress or maybe express my annoyance (sp) Permit me to extend a subjective assumption, characterization to everyone..I think everyone here in blather has the propensity to be as vain and empty as a pretentious puffed up peacock. We're all unfurling our meretricious panoplies of assiduosly acquired pedantry. We all promenade while our true selves lurk behind that really impressive array. especially me. Our canines are unsheathed and the hair is bristling upon our backs and we are "___" lbs of clenched fury. A horrible sound is swirling from our throats, that is when the argument ceases to be revelant and out of our insufferable agony (or this prick that has stirred the slumbering wound)we howl and ttack to quiet its insufferable ache. We all visit our pain upon the hapless other instead of the one who shaped the pain in us. We all lose even when we make the ostensibly cogent argument if we refuse to listen to the other. I am guilty of this as well. It is failing, a reflex. We have been separated from the Source for far too long and have forgotten our original natures, soul starved, our bodies pierced, filled with an armada of quils dipped in disease. I think that if we could bask once more in that Light of completely unconditional love and acceptance we could be nurtured towards an approximation of our original states. What is that state? Why am I persuing this estuary of metaphysical conjecture at this juncture? Because I am tired of being in pain and i am tired of contending against others in pain..riddled with the perception that the gods are all dead and there is nothing transcendant in the world, no amelioration for their souls endless chafe. Could this be an insincere tatctic of argumentation? Am i moving the discussion to an arena I feel more capable of communicating in? That would not be an unfair assumption. Incorrect but not unfair or unwarranted. Reasonable in fact. If i may borrow an illustran from our hindu brothers and sisters, i feel our spirits our *atman (Sanskrit for our embers of eternity (spirit) enclosed in these sacks of supperating disease..our whispering corpses..our bodies) is of the same essence of brahman..what is believed to be the source of spirit. I believe that when we re-unite with this Source we will attain not just a comfort, a surcease of our contentious striving..but a clarity an understanding. An ability to see the connection of all created things. And this is what will melt teh hard edges..this is what will empower us to lose without loss, to win by preferring the other and still not abdicate our personal authority. Again i will not be revisiting this page after my last key strokes. It has been a distinctly enlightening experience arguing with the both of you peace... 031117 ... The Spork 'Phebe While I share certain views with stork daddy, I am staying the fuck out of this one (except maybe to point out x's Need to get her jollies by jumping into a running argument for the sake of working in a few shots at Whomever) Kindly make sure that you don't confuse he or I, I would appreciate it. Thanks 031117 ... Dafremen i think its funny the way stork wears his intent and his maturity level on his sleeve. he is one of those combative types that enjoys combat for the sake of combat. its not always (silent bob being an example of when it is not) but quite often a marked scorpio trait. Their ruling planet used to be Mars and it wasn't for no reason. Phebe has been, and again, this is no reflection of any alliance between us, quite lucid at times if you wade through the chaff. I especially liked the way he stopped several times and looked at what he was doing(letting the ego out for a romp) with disgust. Sort of like I'm doing right now. I guess in the end, the true mark of a wise man is his ability to swallow that hard crust of bread phebe was talking about. This humble schmuck has only been able to consume it in small crumbs and nibbles. Ego is a powerful and tricky autoaphrodisiac. stork, let it be known that you are intelligent, but not wise. you are just a smart monkey among all of the other button pushing monkeys that look for buttons to push. and as many times as you try to say, Stay Down!, the answer will still be, No. even while pinned to the floor. (see also: sharks) Oh and x, hopefully you caught the spelling error in the title of this blathe. Eventually it'll become apparent that being able to spell and use large words in the coprrect context cannot hide juvenile elementary school behavior. Maybe it worked back in high school, on the wrestling team, and with the L33T geeks on usenet, but it will not work here. (Don't make me call you and talk your ear off! I've been meaning to call and say hi for awhile anyhow.) 031117 ... Dafremen This'll be my only visit to this waste of time too. Enjoy the quiet room in which to run around patting yourselves on the back. 031117 ... the psychic donkey I resent this entire blathe as being part of my future 031117 ... stork daddy the winners need no sympathetic ear, the winners write history right? oh how sad. how sad indeed. i guess i'll never escape my marked scorpio traits. i wonder what trait it was in you that caused your attacks on silent bob so many times? and what do you have against monkeys? why are we a more valid mode of existence than them? arrogance to even presume such a statement. that's a philosophical assumption that can neither be proven or disproven. anyways, since we can't find a common ground to combat one another in, we're all being silly. unlike physicality, there is in words, no forum we are held to by our nature. it is of course ironic again that the guy who talks about no one knowing his true motives is telling me that i'm wearing mine on my sleeve as is obvious through an act of expression. finally you're getting at my original argument. one day you may reach my level of wisdom daf, unfortunately that just means you still have leagues and leagues of travelling to do. now let's just stop being stupid. if you really think i need to win all the time, you don't understand what it means to wrestle, philosophically or otherwise. wrestling, and argumentation are acts of relevation. they are measurements of the world around you, the others that compose it, yourself. they are seeing and acting upon the larger pattern two supposedly separate selves are composed on. it is only the concepts of victory and loss that are human. the experience itself is a mystical one. now seriously daf remember, the tactics you resort to are an indicator of who you are. or as i meant to say.... this is stupid now, shutup. 031117 ... ... Let's just all face facts. The world is fucked. 040328 ... three dots and a cup to piss in I resnt this entire blathe 040609 ... Tirade Tirades_of_blather 060119 ... blather_squall_check "one day you may reach my level of wisdom" -stork daddy You've got to look back on that one and laugh. =) 080202 ... stork daddy this is stupid now, shut up. 080203 ... blather_brawl_check It looks like progress has been slow. ^.^ 080204 ... . . 080428 what's it to you? who go blather from