agnosticism Koeltent The only true faith. 010901 ... god here here! 010901 ... distorted tendencies See it to believe it. But if you see it, do you see it how everyone else sees it? What if you're hallucinating? Are you really sure you saw it? 010901 ... silentbob relativity 010903 ... screwing for virginity ah agnosticism being devoted to not being sure. 031009 ... misstree it's a good recipe for meantime, as long as you accept the fact that sitting on fences gives you slivers in very uncomfortable places. 031009 ... ROFL Ouch, finger nail gatherings. Atheism is the only true religion.....LOL I love myself today. Not like yesterday. 031009 ... anger mismanagement "atheism is the only true religion" back up your pretentious, exclusionary broader-than-my-hairy-stinky-ass statement or consider yourself an official ignorant dipshit. 031009 ... crimson Agnosticism is, I believe, a bad position for one to put ones self in. Indecision is usually safe but allows no progress. 031011 ... misstree actually, i think that agnosticism is great for progress... what better starting point than "i'm not sure"... every path is open, you just gotta decide which direction to go. 031011 ... User24 sure, but maybe if everyone were agnostic, then there'd be no progress. who needs progress anyhow? define progress. surely we're still capable of the same mental capacity as the ancient greeks, and we still have central heating like the romans, what has progress actually done that's any good, beyond language and transportation? 031011 ... crimson mistree, you are [once again] very right. Deciding that there is no way to know opens doors. Should you, however, choose to stay stagnant in that position, all the doors of the universe may open and you won't know which/be able to follow any. And you, User24, are also right. Sadly, most people are looking for progress, no matter how useless it may be. Sigh. I should like to think I'm one of those who could be satisfied with mere peaceful survival, rather than striving reasonlessly for expansions. 031027 ... him well said. 031027 ... misstree is opinoinated not bitchy i strive every day for personal progress. u24, did you think i was probing your brain because i was bored? because i think carpal tunnel syndrome would be fun, and i wanted to share? neh. i am constantly trying to become more than i was a moment before, to understand a little more, to have felt a little more, to be a little closer to my godhead, as r_o put it. and where does it get me? have you ever had an experience that you would equate to touching god? are you happy with your life, do you truly glean joy from every possible moment? do you challenge yourself simply to see what it brings? my answers to of these are evidence of my self-evolution. if there is any purpose to life, it is to experience it, and why choose to only look at the familiar parts of the forest? in my oh so humble it hurts opinoin, stagnation = death. simple as that. 031027 ... User24 is very bitchy today.. sorry.. what prompted that? I was talking about what is generally described as progress, you know, the wonderful atom bomb, the amazingly life enhancing fact that we landed a man on the moon, that sort of thing. I mean, I could do without the progress of modern life, sure I may die earlier due to less medical advances, but at least I wouldn't have to worry about terrorist's ricin and arsenic.. or how about the fact that in this wonderful modern age of progress, we have to worry about debt collectors, council rent bills, TV licenses. In fact, I'd rather have a shorter, but better quality life than live in this shit society. Sure, we've got physical progress; Chuffing great telescopes floating about in space, but what about mental progress, as a society? We're increasingly voyeuristic -rotten.com, snuff movies, porn, reality TV, jennicam-, we'll turn our attention to anything except ourselves, turning on our fellow man rather than accept our own faults, we live in a blame culture where every member of society has to buy his way in to the society through bloodied money, gained via exploitation, spent on the same. - People are buying their own destruction! Our society is worth fuck all, sure we've got trains, planes, solar power and waste management, but what about conceptual progress? Anyone seen any true crosscultural teamwork recently? No, it's all got to be put in a contract because we trust each other so much. When as the last time you even spoke to a stranger? We've got such a weird, closed in culture, classes of people with no interaction, as a society, the left hand not only doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but it isn't even aware of it's existence; look at the rich/poor divide in your own countries; China, America, Britain - Where's the progress? Where can we go from this squallid state of non-education, anti-thought society that exists only to serve the land and money owning minority - we are the exploited masses, and we don't even know it; "Hey, look at my new designer clothes", it's a Brave New World, people, but of course, they don't even know who wrote that. I bet they haven't even looked at a book since school. (if they went) The progress of technology, society and politics is totally different to the sort of progress you're talking about - when was the last time your personal mental progress wiped out a million people in a matter of seconds? I'm all for mental evolution, But as asked earlier, what has technological physical progress actually done for the human race? We need to change our way of thinking, not our way of getting to work. 031027 ... User24 now, I know I'm apologising twice in a row, which must be a record even for me, but I am sorry if you (or anyone) takes offence at that, I was allowing myself to be subjective, which is a mental state where my bitter cynicism for humanity really comes up and starts smacking people.. So, no offence intended at all, you should know that. 031027 ... misstree oh. well then. i did indeed mistake what you meant by progress, but i'll step up to the plate none the less. tech first. yes. the hubbel telescope has no discernible impact on my life. 'tis true. but, just going from the geeky science end of things, the rise of things like quantum theory sure as heck has, even just on a pure mental sense. and i *like* being able to microwave things, and spray silly string, and eat food that bears no resemblance to anything found in nature, and prowl about on rotten.com. these things make me happy. but Things are tools, and we'll leave them there, they're meaningless unless weilded. so let's step a bit into social progress. my viewpoint may be slightly different from yours, as i'm not sure what the history of civil rights is like in your neck of the woods, but i'm going to be a typical american for a minute and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. fourty years ago, this country was in flames. more than half the country's population was being supressed in ways that were not subtle in any way; women's lib and racial equality groups shed real blood to change that. nowadays, the fences aren't all gone, but there are more and more wide-open spaces by the day. the company i work for is a good example of it, and it makes me damn proud. the fact that i went through high school openly wiccan, openly bisexual, openly just plain weird, and recieved only minimal flak; you try that shite in the 50's. now, in recent times we have settled back into sheepdom, placated by the lord of the lies, the great god Communicado, but people (*especially* non-u.s. residents) are standing up and hollering at the increasing level of crap they're being fed. yes, we are living in a Brave New World. but the other side of the coin shows us forums for thought (even in the world beyond blather), it shows us advances that are not motivated by greed (linux), it shows us a growing body of knowledge, and it really is coming down to Us versus Them. yes, the economic split is huge and disgusting, and it takes work to limit myself to just those two adjectives. but do you think the top can stay there forever? they're on a pinnacle, yes, but every person down at the bottom occasionally looks up and throws a stone, and those stones set that pillar a'rumbling, and i am still and will always be convinced that someday, something's going to break. and there will be anarchy. and it won't be some road warrior fantasy, it will be people starving and city-state militias and it will be hell. but it will be the next step, and maybe, just maybe, we can figure out something better when we rebuild. and in the meantime, hell, i manage to live a pretty good life, and though there are millions and millions out there that don't, well, we're still trying to get over being monkeys, give us time. somewhere else that just popped up i made the crunching noise of tectonic social change (homophobia, i think)... well, put it here too. it's coming, it's getting faster, and if it's not kept in proper balance we won't have anything to rebuild from because the big boys with their big toys will panic and screw us all. and darlin', i really wish i could argue against your observations on culture more, but they are both accurate and not. general culture is this way, yes. but if you say that most people are one way so all people are one way... yep. you see where that's going. just because cross-cultural cooperation and interactive experiences and personal growth are not the norm doesn't mean that they're not a very powerful force, made more so because the people that wield them have the social strength of ten men. i dunno. i'm rambling, i'm distracted, and i like it when you're bitchy, you're better to argue against instead of saying stuff i agree with all the time. :) 031027 ... User24 yeah, of course some of our progress has benefited our mental evolution (love that phrase) but sometimes (generally when I'm feeling particualr dejected) I just want to blow everyone up and live in a treehouse. (as opposed to normally, when I just want to leave the world to destroy itself while I live in a treehouse (hence, I don't own a TV, and never read news (anyway))) funny, I hate being able to microwave things, it allows me to be lazy, it makes it breed within me; imagine if blather was done via letters, I'd put so much more effort into each one, not just because it cost money, but because it's harder to write than to type, so I have to put more effort in, therefore don't want to waste that effort of "how old are you" pages.. again, I digress.. yeah, convienience. Convienient to do what? subscribe to the system, that's what! what if I don't want over 400 flavours to choose from, what if I want to make my own, sheerly because I know that I don't know how to? yeah. eat that you capitalist globalist sons of Ford! Quantum Psychomechanics (is that even a real word?) is exactly the sort of progress that is good, like the open source movement, and yes, we probally couldn't have got there without the exploitation involved in producing computer hardware, but equally progressive thoughts were (surely) in existence way before money was concieved, yeah, I guess I am talking about utopian anarcho-communism that works fine in theory but is impracticle in a real world sense, but then, I don't want the whole world to do it, any social system that involves uninterested, or remotely related parties is surely doomed to failure due, if nothing else, simply to the fact that the participants are not actively affecting each other, thus feel no sympathy or connection, thus have no motivation to change.. on a microscopic level, the idealistic systems described by such ideologies as anarchy, communism, etc, can (and do) work; I gave half my wages to Linds while she was a student, and still do - no reason beyond the fact that it seems right. Another example, I was lent a CD, had it for 2 weeks, and when I wanted to give it back, I discovered that, due to my own carelessness and lack of respect, the CD was scratched, and skipped on a few tracks. So I bought a new copy and gave him that - it's just the natural thing to do, for me. If only all the world worked on the same principles we'd be fine, but (and perhaps it would be very beneficial for someone to convince me otherwise) I just have so little faith in humanity that I'm not even going to try to preach the virtues of my philosophy to the unknown masses. maybe it would work, but I just don't think it's possible. I'm not saying that it's not possible for such systems to work on larger scales, just that given the current state of affairs, they're unlikely to succeed if put in place over the top of an existing system. Sure, civil rights are improving relative to our immediate past, but look way back in history; (as-far-as-we-can-reasonably-tell) Celtic women had as much respect, sometimes more, as men. True, I guess anarchy will prevail in the end, and, as you say, when it does, it will be more hellish than utopian, and from anarchy will rise another system.. I don't know whether the transition from anarchy to the next step will be a tyrannical or a co-operative movement.. hey, -I- wish I could argue against my opinions on society as a whole, too! Of course there are exceptions to this black picture of retarded humanity, but the weight of ignorance and stupidity sometimes blinds me to them. (yeah, I see what you mean about limiting the adjectives.. hard ain't it :)) And yes, good point, sometimes I get carried away with the inane concept that quantity or frequency are somehow better than quality; one exceptional minute can indeed be worth a thousand normal days. 031027 ... stork daddy seems the only truly logical choice. if we're talking probabability, however, i'd have to say that atheists have believe something far more probable than at least fundamentalist christian theists do. i mean in order for the earth to really have been created 6,000 years ago in 7 days, God had to make a lot of shit to fake out geologists and archaeologists. of course it's the solution to these problems is to say your god is all-powerful and has an unknowable plan. the fact that god's plan is unknowable would seem contradictory with the other concept that god is in essence love, but i'm sure there's some argument for it. all i'm trying to say is that both atheism and theism can't really be proven as far as i can tell. 050113 ... God Spot = ? 050113 ... egger . 050114 ... theFish i used to classify myself as an agnostic. A few days ago i came to the conclusion that agnosticism is a fact, about as concrete as anything in science, and i need to figure out what i believe. does anyone else think the same way? 061109 ... A-agnostic Some people feel they *do* know. Agree or disagree, they aren't agnostics. The question then becomes, what is it they feel that they know? 061109 ... theFish i'm saying it is possible to make a very strong objective arguement that it is impossible to absolutely prove or disprove the existance of god due to the nature of a supreme being. My agreement with that argument was why i considered myself an agnostic, but that is really just confirming my belief in the power of logic and science. Beyond that i need to find out what i believe with respect to relgion 061109 ... Christ without the cross Do we ever really stop arguing these things. Sometimes i think all of these arguments about what is true and what is not and what is right and what is wrong and what we need to fix and why human beings are destroying the world and why we can't be honest and why we can't love unconditionally is just an attempt to not deal with the real problem. I wonder what life would be like if we were all self centered and instead of trying to find an absolute anything for every mystery we focused on how well we were living up to our ideals of ourselves... I just realized that i was talking about something totally unneccessary when i could be working on my own development. i am not even a agnostic and this was not een a comment on agnosticism. Why am i even on this page? But... I just read it over and i liked it so i am not going to erase it. To add something relevant to the topic: I think that taking the stance of not knowing is a true act of humility. 061110 ... nocturnal is there or isn't there? I don't know, no one can ever really know. guess I'll just stop there and decide not to decide. I'll never understand this level of indecision. if you believe, you therefore believe life should be lived a certain way. saying you don't know shouldn't excuse that duty. if you don't buy it, you need to except what comes with that. you can't have it both ways and neither. this particular decision seems to be one that must necessarily be made before you can continue with your life. how anyone can settle forever in agnosticism is beyond me. 061110 ... theFish for me these discussions are how i devolope and test my ideal self. It is hard to know your beliefs when you havent first defended them or modified them in response to others arguements that make sense to you. These discussions let me see other views which help me understand myself. 061110 ... Pto Cw/otC, [to me] your previous blathe here is right on. 061110 ... Christ without the cross the fish, that makes perfect sense. Sometimes you forget that everything in life serves a purpose. 061111 ... bricks rules 061111 ... Ubiquitous Flattery Way to go everyone! I love the way you have all managed to know, or alternatively, not know! Nice work! 061112 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] With or without religion there is good and evil in every religious or non-religious person. People who live by biblical morality are sometimes the ones who are willing to kill or go to war for their beliefs. I am not attacking those who have their own beliefs, I highly respect anyone who has faith and keeps it to themselves, it is when the person forces and pushes their belifs on people who do not have those beliefs. Those who question the beleifs in a higher power are just curious and have some absence of faith, but faith can kill innocence who are non believing in their same religion. Religion can be a hurtful thing because people are fighting for thier religion day in and day out, and people who question faith tend to be forced on to an undesired religion and they are seeking that visual evidence of the existance of a God. Honestly, I am not agnostic (although I once was), atheist or christian (although I was baptized Catholic). I have found a strong connection to me and my Celtic anscestors in the ancient Earth-based, nature centered religion of Wicca so I pretty much focus on solar and lunar changes, the balance of harmony between the God(s) and Goddess(es), and attunement with nature. I practice meditation, divination, and magickal herbalism and have come to the the conclusion that these practices are very potent and powerful. I am not going to force my religion on to others, I keep most of this to myself although I offer a great welcome to whoever wants to learn and I have a very open mind about other religions because I believe that all religions come from the same source and it is rediculous to be walking around preaching to people differ in their religious beliefs. I am so sick of people aguing, fighting, even killing for what they believe as far as religion goes. I am writing this because I was recently called a satonist by a family member (who is catholic) for my beliefs and even after calmly explaining what wicca is really about she said "This is the works of satan in disguise... blah blah blah". RELIGIOUS HATRED AND HOLY WARS IS WHAT DESTROYS THIS PLANET! 061116 ... Myrrdin I am totally with you on that one Toxic C.!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!! 061116 ... Myrrdin BTW, Toxic are you a Green Witch or in a Coven and what area are u from? I am a practicing pagan, but I am only an intermediate practitioner who is taking classes on Wicca and you said one of the exact things that the instructor in my tarot class talked about a relative calling it satanism, the fact that you where baptized catholic, and everything else you have just now said about reliigious hatred, I think that's amazing! 061116 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] I am from the Baltimore County area. I am no teacher who actually teaches classes on Wicca, although I have taught a few friends about Wicca. I do attend rituals at a coven but I started out Solitary (Green Witch) and moved on to a coven to spend less money on books and ritual/majickal objects also to learn more of the true practices. Beware of covens who work to make a profit off of coveners and do not practice what the true meaning of Wicca is all about by using false majick and rituals that are seeming. It sounds to me like you are part of a pretty good coven. Are they non-profit? 061116 ... Myrrdin I am from Gettysburg PA so I am not to far from there! My coven is anything but profit although I do have to purchase most of my reading materials, and any special items for majick or rituals of course. 061116 ... Myrrdin I used to live in Baltimore City 061116 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] AWESOME! Well I'll catch you blating elsewhere later g2g! 061116 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] Just not for me, but I don't hate you for it. 061116 ... [:T_o_x_i_c___C_y_b_o_r_g:] Sorry I ment to type the above statement in another blathe... So don't quote me ont that, 061116 what's it to you? who go blather from