book_of_inquiries_about_islam daf (I've got a LOT of books(this most recent incarnation of my library covers about 300 volumes), covering all major religions and many minor ones. I also have a lot of books of information that have nothing to do with religion. Information has always been a passion of mine. Getting to the bottom of things has always driven me.) The following excerpts from The Book of Inquiries by Ahmad H. Sakar, Ph.D are provided for informational purposes only. They are neither a promotion of, nor are they a condemnation of Islam, the Qur'an or Muslims: "Q16: I was surprised to know that you Muslims do believe in Jesus and Mary. I thought you hate them? A16: Muslims do believe in Jesus and Mary. We trust them and we respect them. Jesus was one of the Mighty Messengers of Allah. His mother was chosen by Allah from all women of her time. She conceived of Jesus vegetatively. In the Qur'an there is one chapter (Surah) in the name of Mary herself. No other women's name was revealed explicitly in the Qur'an except that of Mary. Jesus is one of the beloved Prophets of Allah, and his mother Mary, is on of the most respected women in the minds of Muslims." 031114 ... daf "Q9: Why can a Muslim man marry more than one woman, while a woman cannot? A9: It is a good question. Men and women may marry more than one, but there are rules and regulations of a woman who wants to marry more than one. She has to divorce her husband through the Court and through the System of Khul'ah. She has to have a waiting period called 'Idda of three months in order to make sure that she is not pregnant from the first husband. Otherwise she may not be able to know the father of the baby. If the baby does not know his biological father, many biological problems will be created. Later on a man may marry his own biological sister without knowing so. Genetically, they in turn may suffer having children with biological deformities. Men cannot marry more than one wife for no reason. There should be legitimate reasons and the knowledge of his first wife. It is a big responsibility that very few may be able to assume, with big headache. Allah(swt) informed us that we will not be able to be fair and just. Hence Muslim men should be happy and satisfied with one. In Surah Al - Nisaa' (The Women) Allah says: If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or that which your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (4:3)" 031114 ... stork daddy a very beautiful description of what amounts to evolutionary stable strategies to control female sexuality. we see it in most cultures. after all, another fine way of avoiding confusion would be for children who had the same friggin mother not to marry each other reguardless of who their father was. how about that one? justifications are ugly in any religion. ugly and necessary. 031114 ... stork daddy look at my theory on the double standard daf if you want to know what's "really going on," the one sacred truth. 031114 ... stork daddy also, did you know that if you break the letters in the Quran down to their place in the alphabet and then add the first two and multiply the third and fourth and use the fifth as an exponent on the whole equation in parantheses, that they add up to a number which is actually the don johnson's phone number? proving that don johnson is the next muhammed. 031114 ... stork daddy and by the way, having heard the arguments befor and having answers for them are two different things all together. 031114 ... nootme there were many widows after the Battle of Uhud 031114 ... Dafremen You realize that you won't create a debate this way right? I mean by ridiculing perfectly good people and their way of life? Nor will you create an atmosphere worthy of debate by flauning your lack of education in numerological calculation. Rules that have been around for millenia. You'll just serve to make this into another place to worship ego. You've made this about me and you disagreeing. How foolish is that? 031114 ... stork daddy my point on islam...and listen because this is important....all other patriarchal religious systems...stands. pretty it up all you want, but there are reasons the sexes are treated differently and it has very little to do with peace loving gods. 031114 ... daf You confuse equal rules with equal roles. Women are treated with a great deal of reverence and respect among those who are true to Islamic practice. Mothers, wives...all are highly respected and revered. The rules for men are difficult, as are the rules for women. The benefits for men are different, as are those for women. The roles for men are different, their responsibilities different. Not coincidentally, their biological and emotional needs are different, as are their biological and emotional contributions to the clan. You are arguing from the perspective of one who has assumed that turban wearing idiots who beat their wives are Muslims. They are much Muslims as you are. You have also assumed that because a religion asks the fairer sex to help the more sexually agressive sex suppress their desires, by covering up, that the fairer sex has been repressed. The covering from head to toe has less to do with repression than it has to do with the fact that men, for the most part, are dogs and can use all of the help that they can get. In our culture, we take the other tact. Which is, make the suppression of animal desire as difficult as possible by flaunting what you got baby...more want and carnal desire for EVERYBODY!!! Yee haw! It never ceases to amaze me how little thought an obviously intelligent guy like you can put into things sometimes. Still, yer like that obnoxious kid that grows on ya after awhile. Maybe we have more in common than either one of us would admit to...maybe. : ) 031115 ... stork daddy no dude...the only thing we have in common is that i don't like either of us. here's a fact...women shouldn't have to cover themselves because men can't control themselves. do you hear how ridiculous that sounds? putting culpability in the women for a man's action? that totally undermines responsibility and free will. basically what you're saying is that the line, "she was dressed all sexy, she was asking for it" has a ring of truth to it. and i'm the one who doesn't think about things? anytime a person is pressured by threat of law and the force it implies into doing something they have no say in deciding, i'd say that's repression. it's not like they took a vote on these rules. and i'm not talking about idiots in turbans...i'm talking about the rules as they stand. if you think i'm mister pro western too you're wrong, the catholic religion is notorious for being anti-woman and just anti-sex in general. what i'm saying is that i'm sick of cultural relativists telling me i can't criticize a way of life because it's not mine. i don't care how long they've been practiced or how integral part they are of the gender roles in their given societies, practices like clitorectomies are wrong....even if the women have been convinced its best for them because it deters them and men from their more base desires. we've seen throughout history a variety of social situations, and so we know how the human heart responds to them, when it is strengthened when it is weakened. trust me, the western world stifles the human heart plenty in its own way, but i make no apologies for saying that certain practices aren't really what they say they are, and aren't best for people. one of the primary examples of what i'm saying is that there are plenty of muslim women who come to the US and observe many of islams practices without wearing the burqha all day. some would say that this is because of our unique pressures. i'd have to say our pressure of, do what you'd like but we think you're weird is better than, do what we like or else you're unable to act within our society. you're right that the quran is interpreted in a variety of ways, but even the suggestions it makes for women (no better or worse than some of the bibles) reek of patirarchal control of women's sexuality. my main point again though is that there are teachings in islam that i don't agree with, nor do i think they are conducive to a truly respectful loving sprititual life because of their insidious affects on how women are perceived. i won't even bring up the 77 virgins, because i'm sure i misqouted it, but the fact that virgins are even harped upon so much is one of the main things that makes me look pretty correct as reguards this religion and christianity. so instead of thinking i'm just the normal anti-islam guy, why don't you read more closely what i'm saying next time. and please don't write back trying to defend clitorectomies next (i know they have nothing to do with the quran). 031115 ... smurfus rex Putting the hadith aside (which is virtually impossible for a practicing Muslim in a discussion like this), I have taken some elements from Islam and adopted them, to a point: - Allah (God) is the same God of Judaism, Christianity, and to an extent, Zoroastrianism (People of the Book) and the only difference is how the name is translated - Allah has 99 names that are basically 99 attributes that are supposed to help describe him - Allah's nature, will, and appearance are beyond human description and comprehension All else are simply rules of behavior for a society to which I do not currently belong. If I say this or that custom is wrong or unfair or inappropriate, then that gives others the freedom to pass similar judgements on my own customs. I don't want that. 031115 ... Dafremen An excellent approach smurf. My friend stork, what you seem to fail to realize is that Islam means, submission...voluntary submission to the Will of God. In TRUE Islam, women aren't FORCED to do these things. They do them because they are contributing to the overall good of their society. Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds for a man who is a member of a society where the divorce rate is over 50%, the instances of rape, incest and sexual molestation have increased steadily over the last 40 years, where crime is on the rise at a rate that almost matches the rate of consumer spending (read consumer DESIRE)...do you realize how ridiculous it sounds for a member of a society like that to be telling ANYONE else how to live their lives or run THEIR society? You don't...do you? That is the reality of your arguments. Not the theory, not the philosophy...that, is the reality. Live with it...and yes, I mean that literally. 031115 ... daf Q19: In the western societies we are told that Eve was the source of sin. Most of us look at women as a source of evil. I do not know why. What does Islam say about this problem? A19: It is too bad that people think that Eve was the source of sin for Adam and for us too. I feel sorry for those who look at women as a source of evil. Islam teaches us that Satan enticed Adam to eat from the fruit tree in heaven. Then he in turn ate and made his wife Eve to eat with him. Both therefore, committed a silly mistake. However, both pleaded their case to Allah. They asked for forgiveness and Allah forgave them right away. Therefore, there is no original sin in Islam. Hence we were born individually pure, and innocent. In Islamic teachings, women are looked upon with great respect and dignity; even paradise is at the feet of mothers. Whoever is blessed in having 3-4 daughters, and he/she raises them properly, paradise is assured for him/her. The honor and dignity of men, in a family, in a society and of a nation lies in the respect of women. Muslims must do their best to protect the dignity of women in every society. 031115 ... Dafremen By the way, for those of you joining us late...I'm quoting a book known as the "Book of Inquiries by Ahmad H. Sakr, Ph.D." I have been reading it in an attempt to learn more about the horribly misunderstood faith of Islam. I am thinking about taking up Islam and so I thought it would be a good idea to educate myself on the subject more thoroughly. You might have to wade through some stuff here, apparently stork daddy would like to dilute this message for some reason, known only to himself. 031115 ... daf Q25: Is it true that women have no rights in Islam? A25: It is to the contrary! Women in Islam have more rights and privileges than men. Whenever Allah(swt) reminds children to respect and honor their parents, He immediately selects the mothers rather than the fathers to be respected. A woman in Islam has the right to work and earn money. Her earnings are for her. She can do whatever she wants with it. However, when the husband earns money, it is for him, for her, and for the children. He is obliged to help his parents and his sisters. The wife is not obliged at all. She does not have to cancel her maiden name at marriage. 031115 ... stork daddy daf, did i say that i believe western society isn't ridiculous? no. i merely said that i don't agree with all of the quran's take on what a responsible man and woman do either. and much of societal ruling amounts to someone telling someone else what to do. and while our society falls well short of the democratic ideal, at least it's an ideal embodied in our laws. once again, the example of clitorectomies stands. smurfus, do you really think there's no basis to make a moral decision there? you really think morality is that relative? i mean if it's just what a society is doing, well then what right was there to intervene during WWII when the nazis were doing what they found socially appropriate? i'm not saying islam doesn't offer some beautiful things, i'm just saying that covering women isn't one of them. i'm saying that it's great that they aren't forced to do this, but to even say that you must be distant from god and can't submit to allah (him probably right?) without doing this sort of thing makes it somewhat sex negative. maybe a divorce rate and such things are alarming, maybe they are the cost of greater freedoms, i'm not sure. for sure western civilization has many urgent problems. a lot of our problems come from some trace philosophies of our zealous christian past. after all, manifest destiny was a "cultural way of life." either way my point remains and i'm unapologetic for it. i'd only be a hypocrit if i thought our total way of life was "better" which i don't. i don't however think there's anything hypocritical in saying that some of a religion's rules i find stifling to human choice and freedom. 031115 ... Dafremen You are of course...right..as Rumi would say. "Rumi’s love and honor for all religious traditions was not always popular in his day, and often provoked criticism from the more dogmatic. A story is told that one such public challenge came from a Muslim dignitary, Qonavi, who confronted Rumi before an audience. “You claim to be at one with 72 religious sects,” said Qonavi, “but the Jews cannot agree with the Christians, and the Christians cannot agree with Muslims. If they cannot agree with each other, how could you agree with them all?” To this Rumi answered, “Yes, you are right, I agree with you too.” Of course, I am not Rumi. Got a long way to go still. I can respect that you, apparently, have come as far as you feel you need to. 031116 ... smurfus rex regarding clitorectomies...I think there is a basis for a moral decision, but I haven't studied the Qur'an and the hadith enough to be able to say whether the practice is condoned in the Islamic canon (so to speak). What I can say is that it is not a common practice among the majority of Islamic societies in the world, and it is certainly not a practice that I would permit in my own family. Were I a part of a society whose morals allowed such a practice, then my personal ethics would become a stumbling block and I would have to leave that society. regarding agreeing with every rule within a religion...I, unlike Rumi, do not agree with every rule of every religion, which is why I do not identify myself as a Muslim, or a Catholic, or a Jew, or a Baha'i, or a Buddhist, or a Shintoist. I extract and distill those elements which resonate with me and keep them, those that do not are rejected. Such a cafeteria approach to religion is often attributed to pagans, but I don't even identify as that either. I just do my own thing. I learned some time ago that discussions (and arguments) about which religion is "right" and which is "wrong" often become academic, tangential, and pointless. The underlying effort is to help explain why some people of a particular faith choose to do the things that they do, not to confirm "undeniable truths" or expose fraudulent claims. 031116 ... Dafremen Rumi didn't agree with every rule of every religion. He simply disagreed with conflict. That was the lesson in that anecdote. Anything which mutilates the human body is abhorrent and I will look, but am 99.9% certain, based upon what I've read so far, that it is NOT a part of Islam. I guess basically if we were living in the Inquisition, stork would be railing against Christianity right now, because he hasn't learned to separate what is taught with how men distort those teachings. The practices that some countries claim in the name of Islam are not taught in Qur'anic writings. This is another downside of trying to debate with an incomplete education in the area of discussion. 031116 ... stork daddy my point with clitorectomies was that morality isn't completely relative. i never claimed it was preached in the quran. but boy you sure beat the shit out of that straw man. i happen to agree with what smurfus was most recently saying about picking and choosing. i feel that rumi, a poet i love, held a view that would be fine if all held it, but is damaging to hold when some do not. it seems an extravagance to be beyond this world when some are still suffering in it. and yes i would've railed against the inquisition. but more importantly i would've railed against the teachings of christianity which suggested it, as i currently do. and how do i know whether i am spiritual or not, i just am. i'm at peace sometimes, sometimes i'm not. i never said i have all the answers, but that doesn't stop me from knowing that some ancient text, no matter how revered, doesn't automatically deserve to be deferred to on the argument that all that is wrong with it is the interpretation it is put through. 031116 ... daf i agree. 031116 ... Dafremen but does it deserve to be examined? Not revered, but examined. Would you make assumptions about my beliefs, based on a desire to dispel the lies? People are told that Muslims hate Jesus. That is a lie. People are told that Islam teaches disrespect of women. That is a lie. People are told that Islam promotes bigamy. That is a lie. People are told that Jesus taught people that they should worship him. That is a lie. People are told that Jesus told them to drink his blood and eat his flesh. That is a lie. Are you diluting this message because you have something to prove? Or because you feel that the truth deserves to remain hidden? Are you in favor of misrepresentation? Do you enjoy the fact that people are misled? In each of these attacks against what has been written, you take the stanch that is the opposite of whatever stance I take. Then IS your religion conflict? Rumi, who you say you love, told us that people only normally put locks on things that hold items they value. Although the lock would keep us out, he asks that we not focus on that which repels us, but that which is beautiful, the treasure. So, where is the beauty in your position? What is it that repels you about mine? It's not my religion, because you don't know my religion. Id there something about the Truth which you find repugnant? Is the truth so bound up with the rhetoric for you that you cannot distinguish exploration of idealogy with the ideology itself? How do you love Rumi? Enough to spit in his face with each blathe as you hide an honest exploration with ego-fueled rhetoric? 031116 ... x I like kittens. Does that count? 031116 ... stork daddy rumi wouldn't tell me subtly or not that by not believing in astrology i've closed my mind. would rumi believe in everything? i said i love rumi the poet. i never said i buy all the lies about islam, i merely said i don't buy all the hype either. is the only way to escape one belief to throw yourself blindly into it's opposite? no. there are middle grounds. 031116 ... smurfus rex it counts with me, x. :) 031117 ... blown cherry admittently my details about this are a little sketchy, and please correct me if I am wrong, but in regards to the veil, it does not specifically state in the Qur'an that a woman must wear the full body veil, but a more literal interpretation would be that a woman should cover her 'beauty' and share it only with her husband. This is pretty open to interpretation if you ask me. And also, I think it was in Iran that this compulsory veil wearing was RE-INTRODUCED in only the last 20-30 years or so with a revolution in government, and a backlash against the unpopular westernisation of the Iranian society. So there are grandmothers running arond forgetting to wear their veils because for them it is a relatively new custom, whilst their granddaughters are being trained from the age of 9 to never be without them in public. As I understand it though there is still some confusion in this area of the muslim world as it is still compulsory in some institutions (such as universities) for women to be WITHOUT the veil, a tradition of the 'old' western influences. And in contrast to this there are young muslim women in Britain who are emerged in a secular and multi-denominational society who choose to wear the veil as a sign of their faith, and not due to any religious or familial pressure, and sometimes actually go against their traditional upbringing. I have no argument with Islam or it's followers, my only fear is that a country that is governed by a single religion, and by many standards of Islam, a particularly strict version of that religion, cannot give a peaceful and free existence to it's people. Though I would not offer an alternative, surely being forced not to wear a veil when you wanted to is just as bad as being forced to wear one when you didn't. Western culture imposed on a Muslim country would be surely be seen as just as oppressive as strict laws of Islam being imposed upon the west. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (just spreading out the page a bit - an attempt at making it more readable) 031118 ... Dafremen I would have to agree with your assessment. Kittens definitely do rock. As for your comments bc, I think that's a fair summary. If women are FORCED to submit, that isn't submission to the will of God, but the will of men. Therefore that is not Islam. Someone suggested today on another non-denominational forum that the main cause of this corruption of Islam has been the introduction of hadiths and sunnahs which are supplemental writings to the Qur'an. The main concept still stands, that Islam does not teach that women are to be oppressed and subjugated, but rather that there is a certain allure to the feminine body (HUBBA HUBBA! Arr Arr ARrooooOOOOOO!) that makes the suppression of desire somewhat more difficult for their fellow male human beings. (Straightens out pants) (DOWN BOY!) Any assistance in evening up the "suppression of desire" playing field is highly appreciated, ladies. Thank you. 031118 ... stork daddy and i personally think that saying a woman is closer to god when she covers her beauty, especially when it's the men who should be showing self control, is a religion more based on the pragmatics of biological and social living than on any eternal truth. i can't imagine a god who wants beauty covered up. because if this was a case, why would so much beauty be lying around. please do not read this as yay jesus, yay western world either. 031118 ... daf We take away from any dialogue, that which we sought from it. In your case..conflict. You are what is known as the stinging scorpion. This is the type that is not content until the perceived enemy is dead. Of the three types taught of by astrology, yours is the lowest on the evolutionary ladder. The grey lizard is above you and the eagle soars so far above your head that you are only a speck to such Scorpions. One day, perhaps you will see how foolish you look right now. Until then, you will continue to be less a part of the solution, than a part of the problem. Out of the way, kid. 031118 ... daf So yes, it is indeed a noble thing, stork, for a woman to have found it within herself to care enough about the pathetic plight of less developed members of the male population, and to submit herself to her social conscience..aka God. The men around her would do well to learn from her lesson, appreciate her sacrifice of ego and humble themselves before her. 031118 ... stork daddy ennobling sacrifice. why is that always at the cornerstone of religion? why should a religion mainly dictated by male religious figures choose the burden of the moral responsibility within the religion they for the most part administer to fall upon women? what you're saying is akin to saying, slaves should've allowed themselves to be used because they were helping people with a less fortunate outlook than them, by making them feel secure and taken care of rather than threatened or faced with increased difficulties in their own lives. and i don't think women are higher evolved, or less sexual, certainly not all of them. And it's a bit unfair to demand from them behaviors which demand guilt and repression on their part, in order to make social life easier, all in the name of god. They have a different type of sexuality but why they shouldn't be allowed to express that is beyond me. This is a criticism i have of islam, christianity, and even aspects of buddhism. You compare me to animals and use words like evolution to which i respond so what? what's wrong with being an animal? you make so many value judgements that you're blind to. the fact that you're saying that women are responsible for the reactions of men is really the same line that people have given in defense of rapists. i find it deplorable in that case, and i find your rhetorical twisting of it into a noble burden pretty sickening as well. so if you feel better about my arguments because you've reduced them to a metaphorical sting then fine. but the facts they describe remain. if they wish to live that life i support them. but any religion that says that it's a way to god, has in my estimation, a pretty limited scope of what god is. 031118 ... stork daddy oh and the problem and the solution hmm daf? those are pretty uncompromising words. perhaps a jihad or crusade is in order? or perhaps a final solution? where have i heard words like that before? you see this conversation daf? this is the solution. like i've said before, argument is revelation, both sides step into the various lights thrown upon them by the other. you're the one who has no patience for that. 031118 what's it to you? who go blather from