white_privilege flowerock People on the internet keep posting articles about this. About cultural_appropriation and ally_theater Hair, fashion, music... talking about race or racism as a white person it seems will land you in an always_wrong position. I feel that being white is something to be ashamed of now and that because I am white, my words and feelings and interests don't matter if they touch on non white culture or color one bit. In saying all this though, I feel whiny and stupid... ignorant. How do I know what will offend if I mean it with sincere goodness? I realize that intent_is_not_everything here, but it's not fair to be told how offensive and fake I am when I had no idea that thing was not appropriate to you in the first place. Where do I learn? Because according to these articles even asking "teach_me" is unacceptable. But everyone I know who I ask about these things seems to feel it's not worth stressing over, that it's not somethjng anyone of any color really cares this much about because there are much bigger problems to deal with than hair styles. I realize I might just be truly ignorant, it's frustrating to not know and to have no clear answer. 151108 ... srealisma i've lurked around these conversations, and i can tell you two things, briefly and quickly and then let you mull them over. a) hair is a big deal because African American women do spend quite a lot of time on it, by choice and because they have more standards about it then, say, i do. "hair goals" i've realized that this reflects poorly on me, but i still haven't solved my hair problems enough to be proud of it, or even have ideas about it, yet i can get away with whatever it is i'm doing with it. b) they don't have to teach you because it is Intro to People of Color which is really old news on their end, and they'd rather be working on more advanced subjects. makes sense. there's a lot of books written about people of color issues. a new one is Between the world and me by Ta-Nehisi Coates somewhere on the internet is 10 book recommendations by Coates. reading their descriptions, portrayals, and arguments is less appropriative than trying to feel the same feelings. all that said, i am very prone to racism. it might be why i lead the life i do and have so much of an interest in correcting my perceptions. since i will always be an INTP or INTJ it's important to me to respect others and i will always totally dig a black intellectual because he or she nearly always speaks to my questions. but not every non-white intellectual person is going to want to professor me. I've come to believe it needs to be a short class in high school. my lowest grade in college was a film class on African American feminist issues. i don't regret it. one of my better moments, although i'm sure i was pretty darn annoying to have in class... (that might be always true, though, unfortunately.) 151109 ... flowerock Good response, thanks. I'll look into the book sometime... the hair issue is usually in regards to white people having dreads (I have them) and that it is offensive because black women have had to "make their hair look white" to be accepted. In conversations I've been part of I've been told that it isn't really an issue anymore and that there are much more important things to be dealt with and focused on than hair. I wouldn't say that I expect anyone to teach me about this, especially on demand, but someone somewhere had to teach anyone I think... books are obviously a great idea. 151109 ... unhinged i rail against this too. i grew up in a blue collar lower middle class family. i have a low wage job. i struggle with money all the time. i do not feel priviledged at all. but i watched a video from an online meditation conference i am taking by seane corn this morning where she basically said just because we dont feel priviledged as white people doesnt mean we arent perceived that way. granted there are certain things i have not had to deal with in my life because i am white, but there is a bigger class issue at work in this society of inequality and oppression. we need to come together instead of finding new words and concepts to divide us 151109 ... flowerock I think there is some reality to the privilege point, but I think it largely depends on location and company. I have been fortunate to live in places where there appears to be very little racism expressed in public. In some places though, I read news stories about insane acts of violence based on race, most often, not against the white race. So it does exist. I hate to whine about it because just even talking about these feelings falls into a negative category according to these article writers... but it really feels to me like a kind of racist judgement that I can't say or do certain things that aren't offensive or wrong outside of the view of these writers or in relation to race. I believe that it must be a somewhat widely held feeling if if so many people are reading and writing these articles... but so far it's all white friends who share them and argue for their content. I am trying to find something in between my experience, my feelings, and what will actually bring about necessary change in places and people where it is needed. I don't want to ignore it but I can't totally accept the whole thing either. I agree about class, that is something that everyone deals with and gets judged and mistreated over regardless of race or religion. I agree that there are bigger issues to tackle and come_togethe over, but when I say that, I get "white privilege" thrown in my face. 151109 ... nr interesting. i tend to think of it in more of a general sense; white people (also men; this applies to feminism, and also other issues that aren't coming to me right now) have had the most power (and, well, privilege), so they are counted on to effect change. it's just kind of an onus on us/them as a whole. that said, people shouldn't be chastised for personal decisions, especially considering something like a hairstyle (or a job—that's a bit of a different issue; i'm in the arts too and can relate to the lack of funds) and it can definitely be a personal issue. and obviously a lot of people in power are great people with great attitudes. but i think sometimes when people comment on specific instances, they're trying to talk about the racial issue (not the same as racism) as a whole. i dunno. it's all so complicated, and i'm too tired to get more into it right now, but i think it's good how much it's being talked about. 151109 ... unhinged i lived in the most segregated city in america. i saw images of a man beat up so bad by police both his eyes were swollen shut just for being black in a white neighborhood. i was disgusted for that man; he spent weeks in the hospital and his family had to go all the way to federal judge before the legal system would acknowledge that a crime was perpetrated against him. his name is frank jude jr. i have been the only white girl on a bus that went through the black neighborhood. everyone that got on that bus stopped talking to stare at me. me and my mexican boyfriend were denied service in a restaurant. after almost an hour and not even a glass of water let alone a menu on our table we got the hint and left. i will never know what it feels like to be afraid of the cops. to know the system will do everything in its power to lock me up or kill me. but i do know what it feels like to be judged based on the color of my skin. 151109 ... srealisma i disagree that race is unimportant to systematic and consistent discrimination but i agree that the fight against economic inequality blankets everyone in an economy, and we can unite under these principles (although whenever there is a movement of the left historically there are always a lot of power struggles from within that can break down integrity and efficacy or so i've heard). you can't ignore that white people have a greater chance and opportunity to walk into situations and get resources and recognition that they don't necessarily deserve sometimes. also, that white people can afford to twist a situation around and have irony win the day instead of being labelled subversive and countercultural, and thus, excessively questioned. regardless of class. i come from a lower middle class background too, and i can still waltz into places, turn on some honesty and charm, having worked only somewhat hard (until i became ill), and get the job. not to mention that i won't end up in jail or harmed by police just for acting a little off. that's why it is not "all lives matter" black people seem to be bearing the burden of a society in flux a little more with the school to prison pipeline. it is up to white people to tell each other that this has gotten out of hand so that somebody's white cop friend or family also hears the sentiment and does not act with such cruelty. still i hear you about the importance of money and privilege. it is easier to sympathize with the homeless (whatever their race) than it is with the $70K/year tech hipster (whatever their race) But why is the homeless person homeless and the tech hipster able to get to $70K/year: race, gender, ability might have more to do with it, and then some of us might find our individual circumstances and opportunities might be more in line with the $70K/year tech hipster we just chose a different route due to values, beliefs and personality (because people don't wonder if they perhaps would like to be homeless when they grow up, barring the 12 year old with the mindset of a sadhu) but in a certain respect it's just an argument because of the intersection of personal issues with societal ones. i certainly can't schmooze with some tech folks and get a good job like that -- but i might if i spent all my freetime learning how to program in all the latest ways (and then doing some schmoozing, heck maybe i'd pretend to date someone, just to get a job ;) ) but i seem to have other priorities. sometimes i wonder if these "priorities" are only a pile of egoism and brain calisthenics only meant to protect my own "survival" though. and then i become the white damsel that needs saving by someone with that extra padding in their paycheck. but keep in mind i just got a steady *half time job at $15/hour and i feel i'm moving up in the world. but, you know, illness and shit. isolation. blah blah. it's my own damn fault unless i really do have a genetic predisposition to being a bit of white privilege denier or overall loser, disabled in need of public assistance etc etc etc etc. my identity politics aren't going to get me anywhere except a place where i might be admired, but always discriminated against because of mental illness stigma. and stigma... that's not always wrong. unless i really impress with something big someday, and nullify stigma, i can hold out hope for that -- and white privilege is certainly a plus in the wowing-people category. . . i might be able to eek out working five times as hard to wow people but never fifty times as hard. (as if i were Helen Keller!) that's sad though - the only hope is to wow people and that gets back to your original point, unh, about the value of remedies for inequality. it would be extremely hard to erase my white privilege at this point, however. i've already been very well educated. i've already worked less hard for more breaks. but that's a good thing, because of this illness/disorder/predisposition to being crazy. so white privilege is a good thing, but one might feel bad that we don't extend it to everyone. that we question without knowing of the abilities, or even giving some people a chance to prove themselves in the first place. or, neglecting to give credit to a black survivor just like me, except more likely to be in homeless shelter. (but see i just went into the who-to-honestly-sympathize-with conundrum again. the winner or the loser? hmmm. I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and thinking this guy is a bit of a loser, by my value system.... i need to try Beautiful Losers I'm familiar with Leonard Cohen but i've never read the book. also relevant is the work of Anonymous vs The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test of a previous generation, in terms of being progressive and or radical. it still comes down, for me, to Merry Pranksters vs Do the Right Thing. you'll be liked for the former; you'll respect yourself for the latter. can you have both? it seems i'm not cool enough for both. i might even come to a bit of a peace about it--- sorry for the personal tangent. but it's relevant because the personal is not always political, hm ) 151110 ... unhinged i am not saying race is unimportant. i know better. i know that people are discriminated against based on race; i have been a witness to people i love being a judged and treated like shit and harassed by police just because they are nonwhite. i know i grew up with opportunity that others in my neighborhood or community didnt have because i am white. but that does not mean i should tolerate discrimination flung at me. it does not mean i am currently walking around with all this opportunity and wealth compared to my nonwhite counterparts. when the word priviledge is used, i take it to mean you have things above and beyond what you really need. i live paycheck to paycheck because this society decided that the only people that deserve the privledge of having way more than they could ever need are white MEN that become doctors lawyers ceos bankers or technology moguls. i am currently struggling with little to no opportunity to do better myself. but im privledged because i am white...i dont buy that. sorry. but that doesnt mean i dont acknowledge the inordinate suffering that nonwhite people go through. the justice system needs fixed. now. the prison system needs fixed. now. but so does the economic system that uses people of all colors so that inequality in this country is at historic levels. we all suffer. negating someone elses suffering because it is not exactly like yours isnt helping anyone suffer less. and while we are all busy arguing over who suffers more, rich white men are buying our government so they can continue to exploit all of us in the working class. so yes, i myself fully acknowledge structural racism in america. this fact has been obvious to me for at least twenty years. but making the solution about dividing people and saying its you against me cause you are white and all white people are part of the problem is just as absurd as saying all black men are thugs that abandon their children. we still need to address racism in this country. yes. we do. it is still here and maybe worse for its now hidden role. but discrimination is discrimination no matter how you cut it, white black or otherwise. i want equality for all of us. true equality. where we dont look at each other and think of color or other. current rhetoric and tactics on the topic wont achieve that 151110 ... dafremen Ok, Y'all. I love the fuck out of your spirit. Hopefully I've got something helpful here. I don't have a problem in the world..wherever I go (unless it's with assholes and they deserve me.) Respect is the key, regardless of the circumstance. Respect is almost always respected and returned. It's always better to avoid personal moments or input unless it's been "deemed" territory that you're welcome in. Keep your "guest" face on in unknown territory. Sensitivity is not an asset if it's about you. It is if it's about someone elses circumstance it's ok to empathize, but not if you're piteous about it. "Man, that's fucked up. Hope it gets better." is about as good as you can do in most situations. Weakness is not an asset. Black folks are kind and proud, but not inclined to drag fools along unless the fools are particularly kind-hearted, grateful and respectful. The whole discomfort with ones whiteness is felt and perceived subconsciously as evidence that you don't belong. You make your own comfort level, because black folks aren't (usually) looking at your blackness. They are usually watching what you do..and figuring out why you said the words you said. These are proud, respectable folks surrounded by the same thing we are: scumbags of their own kind. But since centuries of history have tried to push black folks into poverty, as hard to buckle under pressure and as capable as these brothers and sisters are to handle the bludgeon of poverty (against their will..ALWAYS), they also deal with inordinate numbers of those who fall prey to the desperation that poverty breeds. Add to that, the need to APPEAR respectable in the black community in order to rise above and inspire others to do the same. It's highly related to centuries of denied pride that a many black man chooses to beat his chest so loudly. We should never forget that and give as much respect as we can without losing our worthiness of the same. The number one thing is to not be ashamed of your white privilege, but recognize it. You are you. You didn't ask to be born that color. There is an entire race that can empathize..but for the sort of privilege which their color bought them. Remember this and just be a good, loving, decent person. You won't have a problem with most black folk. They have their racists too..but most are much gentler and forgiving than ours are. Not by much..but by a bit. It always depends upon respect. See the person behind the words and the actions and the skin will never matter. That goes for all of us. Many black folks expect you to not understand. They expect you might be uptight. They expect you to have race issues. Don't have race issues, is my suggestion. Then there won't be any issues. If you think YOU'RE tired of dealing with race issues between human beings, imagine being black. 151110 ... unhinged respect goes both ways. period. i dont have a problem with people standing up against oppression. i have a problem with being told i have so much just because i am white. i have next to nothing. im on the short end of the fucking stick too. 151110 ... unhinged (i live with a black man that has been my best friend for sixteen years. im pretty well accquainted with the struggles of the black community) 151110 ... flowerock Flowers_and_bullets An article about the_old_pueblo A little off topic but it kind of helped me to understand d the feeling I couldn't quite grasp about all this. Unfortunately I haven't had time to read all that's gone on here on this blathe since I last clicked on it... 151110 ... epitome of incomprehensibility Hey srealisma - congratulations on getting the job! Hm. Privilege. I think I'd regard privilege as not having a particular potential barrier. Of course white people in North America aren't all richer, happier, or freer than black people - but there's a tendency for black people to face more discrimination for their race. Anyway, "race" means very little biologically. I mean for people. Humans are a race, not a bunch of races. It's not like African people are reindeer and European people are caribou. ...We're all reindeer, of course, because of Christmas. There. World problem: solved! 151111 ... flowerock I have also had a hrd time deciding how I feel about affirmative_action I feel race should not be considered at all, not known before hand if it's such an issue. I feel that it must cause some to be rejected or accepted unfairly, too. It is a bandaid_not_a_solution 151111 what's it to you? who go blather from