mathematics The Truth Hold the very key to the universe. And humans hold the key to understanding mathematics. (opposed to say, squirrels for instance, they suck at math :] ) Now the question is: If the Universe is a doorway, where does it open to? 010810 ... monadh interesting point/question/statement/blath I think I must fit into the squirrel category though,... all I can count is one. 010810 ... kx21 My latest blue sky finding... 1) The Universe(s) = Star(s) + Shit(s) + Hole(s) + Unknown(s) Can you prove this or disprove this? 2) Holes is the most amazing string in all Universes. It is the door or more precisely, passsge way for something to something else... Copyright 2001. kx21.com 010810 ... dB kx21, what do you speculate is on the other side? You are always a fountain of wisdom, so maybe you can answer this one simple question. 010820 ... unhinged mathematics isn't the key to anything. when you try to analyze god's poem, you strip it of the very essence; existence. the key to the universe is the mind in all of it's un-analytical glory. saying_saying_away 010820 ... dB who said anything about stripping away. Mathematics, science, philosophy, whatever, they are tools that help us understand. I'm sure god does not want us to feel that his way is a secret that we are not allowed to understand. 010820 ... unhinged did you ever notice however that the higher you explore the realms of mathematics and science and philosophy the more complicated these matters become? microbiology, quantum physics, calulus, nieztche...is that really all understanding of god's design? there is nothing more simple than life. no need to invent calculus to find out why. it's just the HUMAN mind trying to organize perceived chaos. maybe the great understanding of god's great and wonderful poem is that one day he sat down and he threw together a great big planet and let it sit there for millions of years without interfering. so where's the science in that? the human world never will understand. but i guess we can have fun trying. 010820 ... norega esta loca 010820 ... The Truth The true poetry of God's poem consists of making the tiny seed that, once planted, would grow into the colorful blossom of a universe (including humans, and their minds). Mathematics is just one of his tools, like, miracle grow or something. The point is... We, HUMANS, do math. It is unique to our species. Since the beginning of our TIME we have been inclined to count, measure, weigh, compare and solve numerical problems. Obviously, it is our destiny to know math. The universe is constructed with math. There is a formula for everything, (I believe)... If something exists, it has a number. It has an equation that plugs into the Theory of everything equation. 010820 ... unhinged or we could say it is the evolution of the human mind that has allowed us to become proficient at math...which i think is more the case than any kind of destiny. i don't think god sticks his fingers in it very often. he might have connected man to ape but after that he let us wander where we willed. 010821 ... The Truth Evolution = Destiny? What is evolution is evolving to? What does evolution add up to? Math is infinite Humanity is infinite Destiny is infinite Natural Adaptation is infinite. but...when you look closely... Evolution is finite, limited. 010822 ... kx21 Can human strings or emotions e.g. the_string_between_man_and_woman, kindness, etc. be mathematised? 010822 ... kx21 Any good_point to share about mathematization or scientification of Human strings / relationships / emotions? 010822 ... unhinged how is destiny infinite? i thought the whole point of the concept is that it is finite. if you think you can do anything or go anywhere or make anything out of your life that doesn't follow the concept of destiny to me. if you think you make your own destiny, i guess that's empowering but i don't think it's true. and how is evolution finite? the whole point is it's an ever-changing process. if evolution was finite we would still use our appendixes and have use for our wisdom teeth. oh yeah....and that whole vestigal bone thing like 'tail'bone. but i guess somehow i could see the finite process involved in evolution...almost. 010822 ... unhinged natural adaptation=evolution? yes? no? maybe? maybe i haven't studied biology in 5 years, but they seem synonomous to me. 010822 ... The Truth Natural adaptation is the behavior of life. Evolution is the invention of man. Life does evolve, but darwins theory is missing so much. It needs a lot of work before it's finished. There are way too many holes to be as accepted as it is, (I feel). I think the reason for it's rapid acceptence is the fact that some found it useful to "disprove" and combat the oppressive church. Besides, it is highly logical at first and second glances. They will never find the "missing link" to link Humankind with the standard evolution on Earth. Simply because humankind is alien to this ecosystem. A new plant from a different garden. Genetics hold more value in my opinion. There are instructions within the genes that control the variations. They trigger the mutations. They know the outcome. But... That is not random, or accidental adaptation. That is a work of art, being further refined. A sculpture being detailed further. It is the safety net designed by the engineer. If it was ALL based on survival of the fittest, I think this world would be extraordinarily hostile. Everything would need a superior defense, or a superior offense. Like those creatures in the movie ALIENS[1-4]. Beings as graceful and beautiful as deer would never make it. [Although the ticking of the cosmic clock, striking the surface with meteorites every time the clock chimes could help to sustain a less hostile environment.] The appendix does have a use, our doctors just don't KNOW what it does yet, so they pretend the are smarter than they are, and say it doesn't have a use. The Medicine Industry is relatively new, let's not forget that it is still in it's child stages. Nature is not inefficient. Everything is used. Oh, and I have all my wisdom teeth, they are very useful to me. 010822 ... ....... ....... 010822 ... ....... (¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.-[Symmetry]-.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯) 010822 ... unhinged but just because it has limitations does not mean it is finite. calculus has limitations but it is not finite. which brings me back to my original point. this whole evolution/destiny arguement is just human beings trying to make sense out of the unexplainable. that is what science and religion are for. none of us know the true answer and we find comfort in different interpretations of the same answer. speculation is a dangerous game when played with absolute belief. 010822 ... dB why is it that quamtum physics is easy, cosmology is easy, statistics, calculus... all that is easy, but I can't do 6th form algebra? No matter how hard I tried I just didn't get it. destiny = resolution (eventually, so therefore it's finite). 010822 ... kx21 The best model or reference for Harmony from Math / Science:- Termal Equilibrium... What is the best model or reference for Kindness from Math / Science? 010822 ... The Truth Kindness (k) = a postitive force so kindness would be represented mathematically as [+1(k)] where (k) would be the amount, or value of kindness. 010822 ... The Truth I agree with you unhinged on everything EXCEPT the unexplainable part. Which brings me to MY point: There is a mathematical formula for everything: (Physics, Chemistry, Energy, Forces, biology, motion, gravity, mass, etc.) And Humans understand Mathematical formulas... So everything can be broken down into mathematical formulas and thus be explainable and understand by humans. Now, I know we don't yet have all the variables, but with our friendly computing machines to help us count, it shouldn't be too long at all. 010822 ... The Truth Destiny is infinite because it existed before time. Without time, everything is eternal. Eternal = infinity. When time runs out, i.e. ceases to exist, there will still be destiny, oh yes... there will still be destiny my precious. (See what you've done now Gollum!?!) 010822 ... dB nope. I still don't believe destiny is infinite. 010822 ... The Truth That's ok. It's a tangent that is completely irrelevant to the scope of this discussion. Where does it end then? Who cares! Where did it begin then? Who knows! Let's talk mathematics shall we? What is the difference between and orange? 010822 ... unhinged something cannot be infinite without the concept of time. infinity implies some form of measurement. time is a form of measurement. i was brushing up on my calculus (yes i am a nerd) and i was reading today that everyone has their own concept of measurement which makes measurement in and of itself an infinite venture. mathematics is just the study of infinity. which was why calculus always made my brain hurt. just stretched it to it's capacity of understanding. i think in my own mind life is much more simple. that is my understanding and belief. there are some things that will never be explained by the human mind because there are things that exist beyond our realm of capabilities. if you believe that humanity is the pinnacle of existence and the human mind holds the keys to all understanding, that is rather egocentric. mathematics was created by the human mind...the ultimate hypothesis of order. therefore it cannot explain all the mysteries of the universe. the egocentrism of humanity pervades us. 010822 ... The Truth Impressive... I concede my argument. You are right. 010822 ... kx21 Given that Human's mind or creativity is more than one's can perceive or conceive... It implies that Math is more than infinity... Math proves kindness? 010823 ... The Truth It's like the movie "The Matrix" when Neo was finally ready, he could see the world as binary strings of numbers that represented the world around him. He could then manipulate those numbers however he wanted to. The Matrix was then his playground. Some movies are such a metaphor for reality...makes you wonder. 010824 ... j_blue i havent read much of the above blathe, so forgive me for any potential repetition. and here is my 'what it is' : math is just a very clear way of describing the universe, that helps make clear what might otherwise be too obscure. any other description could point to ego... 010824 ... Dafremen Yo...hey unhinged....do0d...that WAS brilliant..um but the fact that Truth conceded so quickly and easily should have been a clue to you that something was up. See you're not right exactly...I'm afraid. Infinity does NOT require time, although I personally believe that time is infinite. In fact I think I'm finally comfortable with the notion that there was no beginning of time either if you can fathom such a thing. Back to infinity though. See an infinite number of anything isn't a reference to the duration of the items, it's a reference to the interations or more specifically to the lack of any BOUNDS on those interations..like pick the biggest number and add 1 to it sort of stuff. When we speak of infinite time, we are speaking of the amount or iterations of any unit of time measurement, not the duration. Infinity speaks of boundlessness quantity, finite: bounded knowable quantity. Boundless quantity is still possible instantaneously, as nearly impossible as the concept is to imagine. Mathematicians have a symbol for infinity, I suppose you might say that as long as it takes them to write it is as fast as you can count to the end of all counting, but I believe you get my point and hope that it is well taken. Your argument, was..most righteously well written and well thought out, I'm open to any rebuttal of course...you ARE the do0d...as you are well aware. The rest of your blather was dead on the money as usual. Humans...heheh silly guys. (Pokes humanity in the belly like the Pillsbury Dough Boy.) 010824 ... Gollum goes to college suck! I hate my math class! 010824 ... The Truth I conceded because I am lazy. And it seemed like we all agreed, yet still spoke in debate mode. Plus, I really don't know all that much about mathematics, so I felt sheepish trying to discuss it intellectually. I was borderline ignorant, trying to discuss things which I know nothing about. I excelled in geometry but I failed algebra twice. Never bothered to go to calculus, or even trig. In college I just took