Dafremen Why do we teach tolerance? Honestly, why?!

To tolerate something is to "put up with" it, as if our mere presence entitled us to such an presumptuous indulgence. Who the hell am I to "put up with" you and, gawd help us, who on Earth are YOU to "put up with" me?

You are as entitled to this existence as am I, your opinions certainly are no less worthy of your belief and support than are mine. Why presume to tolerate one another's presence? Why presume to ALLOW each other the right to entertain our individual points of view?

Is it that tolerance is a first step?

Certainly it appears to many of us to be the only ACCEPTABLE first step. Perhaps this is because we feel that our egos take precedence over the equal entitlement to understanding of our fellow man. We would rather see ourselves as having extended the FAVOR of tolerance, over being forced to admit that we OWE the courtesy of respect, or at the very least understanding to those around us, not tolerance.

You tolerate. I will attempt to understand, and learn to see in the beliefs of others that which they have found worthy of belief. I will find the beauty that they see and perhaps be moved toward respect, perhaps simply toward a better understanding of their point of view.

You "put up with". I will live with, concern myself with and reach out to the people around me.

Continue to teach tolerance if it is all that your ego will allow. I will continue to understand that in your slightly self-centered tolerance, you see the hope of peace, and that therein lies the saving grace and the beauty of your tolerance.
elisabeth42 First, let me say that I love Dafremen's ideas on this. Beautifully said. But Dafremen, what about those who merely tolerate without trying to understand and have acceptance? I see you at least tolerate that, but do you understand, accept, and respect it? Maybe so. Just wondering.

Here are some of my own ideas.

First, the dictionary's definition:
1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
3. To put up with; endure. See Synonyms at bear1.
4. Medicine. To have tolerance for (a substance or pathogen).

I have my own beliefs, I am my own person, I have my own habits and actions etc. I know I have no place to dictate what's "right" and "wrong". I'm big on acceptance (to receive, especially with favor). I love to know where others are coming from, tune into their insights, let them know I believe they are totally valid and good. I love to do that, but I sometimes can't.

For me, acceptance comes naturally. Or in some cases, I need to reach out and learn and reflect to be able to exhibit true acceptance. But there are situations where no matter how far I reach out, no matter how hard I observe and study, no matter how closely I inspect my shortcomings and obstacles, I honestly cannot feel acceptance for something. This is probably because in my very core I completely disagree. I am allowed to disagree, I can't agree with everything. Acceptance, I think, includes a basic level of agreement, while tolerance does not. When I disagree, instead of fear, hatred, anger, etc, I exhibit tolerance. This is precisely because I DO have respect. Although I disagree with something, it doesn't mean that I can't allow it to be. It doesn't mean that I'm right. That's tolerance.

There are times when I disagree and I won't even be tolerant. This only applies to things that people do to hurt, kill, and damage other humans, living things, and the environment. If somebody is going to tell me how much they love to screw goats and afterwards saw off their heads, there is no way I'm going to tolerate much less accept that because it's extremely disturbing and upsetting to me.

I think, while it may be best to strive for acceptance, that tolerance promotes friendship and compassion despite differences, and I see that as being very positive.
Raina Why do I work in a service field if I don't have any?

It's not that I hate stupid people. I hate stupid people with bad attitudes.

I hate repeating myself more than once.

I REALLY hate when people have poor comunication skills, and expect you to absorb their problems as if you have some type of osmosis thing going on.

"How do you suck problems out of the stupid, when the stupid can't speak for themselves?"

Boy, did I pick the wrong career.
silentbob music: joanna newsom - bridges and balloons
The reason that i know God hates me is because he allowed me to choose a class teaching african american literature, analyzing the struggle they went through in harlem in the early part of the 1900's, and the writings that came out of it, focusing on tolerance and acceptance. The bad part is he allowed me to take this class with a person i just fucking downright loathe and it is my own personal struggle to practice tolerance and acceptance with this person in the room while also not letting him intimidate me into not voicing my opinions.

laugh, god, you ironic bastard. laugh.
zeke blather is for us all. i am repelled by recent trends of unkindness and bullying. i can not find anything good about rudeness, arrogance and the need to convince others that one's own point of view is not only right but that it should be adopted by all. long ago i said to oe that when i feel contempt for something, i try remeber to recuse myself, making all efforts to remain humble. prehaps this might be useful to others in light of recent events. peace all. 060309
. . 080530
Temporary Enemy of Daf Why tolerate someone spewing toxins in the face of your friends? 080530
ha what's that zeke? speak louder, some people evidently didn't hear you! 080531
They call me Truth some people will never hear and really listen, and it is impossible to make someone listen who chooses not to.

Daf, please, i plead with you. Listen to your words, your own words, lying here on this page for all to see. Do you think you show respect? Do you honestly believe that you accept and seek to understand other views? Do you really respect another individual, when you taunt and insult people and their ideas for FUN?

What purpose do your actions serve? Whats the point of FUN if it promotes nothing that you truly believe. Let it sink in daf buddy. There are people that are actually trying to speak to you with reason. Listen. This is not an "I hate Daf" speech. This is someone trying to speak to you, like a human being, showing you respect and being honest with you. Realize the difference between that and an attack against you.

Every time someone tries to speak to you about your rudeness, you respond with more rudeness and disrespect. Why Daf?

come on homie. at least try to see the world from the perspective of the people that are here sharing this space with you, truly hear their thoughts and understand the worth behind them, see their point of view and understand their anger when you insult them unprovoked. Value these people that you share this space with, instead of forming a campaign against them to insult them and taunt them at all cost.


dafremen Fine truth..if you must have a peek behind the curtain at the puny figure hidden there..and since you've obviously taken great pains to control your you go:


It's just a show.

Learn to not let it touch you in negative ways.
We need that. It's critical. It's important. It's that important. It's important enough for me to not care what folks think. It's important enough to play the hypocrite and stir it up until it makes us all sick..because here's one of those people who can detach enough from it to do so.

(Although I'll no doubt cry myself to sleep over it one of these days.)'s not just the George W. Bushs' of the world that keep this madhouse alight with maniacal's the protesters too. It's not just the asshole behind the hand that's killing's his defiantly screaming victim.

It's not just the hunters that hunt the birds. The splash of red paint on fur kills their song as well.

The show's not over yet..and I suppose..that's a shame. No, I KNOW that's a shame. But when you have attachment_disorder, it's the easiest thing in the world to hurt the ones you love.

You have the secret...but do not know my name.

As was said before, you had no idea what's going on here..and may still not.

I don't know..we'll see whether you return with your long-winded explanation of how what I do is wrong..or if you'll just take your answer and let it be.

And just so you know:

I read my words religiously..ask anyone that knows me personally.

Most days...they're all I read..again...and again...and again.
They call me Truth I have heard that wisdom before, and sometimes i agree, and sometimes i dont.

Sometimes I KNOW the world is a show, that the fire is kept ablaze by silly people that believe they can change it or fight against it, or liberate it from its sorrow. And in those moments i would have to agree with your own long-winded version of it, because i have heard it so many times and thought it so many times that it sticks in my throat like vomit. I know everything you say, and yet i know nothing, because other times i disagree with that belief entirely.

Its not about wrong daf, its about purpose and intention, and freedom, and compassion and integrity. I know that we are hypocrites, and we are so without realizing it. But there is a part of me, a part of me that will always be there, resting and nesting within me, burning, and i cannot ignore it, because i honestly believe that there is where i am free. I could never give in to this machine. And i could never believe that reality is only one way, and that it is some show where nothing we do matters and we need to detach ourselves from it.
There are many layers, and you peel back one and there are more beneath. Some people accept what they see and they dig no further, others dig forever, and what does it matter really? It matters greatly. If enough layers are peeled back there will be enough contradicting truths to feed all ideologies, and yours is no different.
I keep digging

So i would have to say, that no, the world is not a show or a stage or a play or some magicians trick sent here as entertainment, and sometimes it is, because we make it that way. We decide what the world is, collectively by our acceptance or our rebellion against it or our neutrality or numbness.

I am long winded. You are right about that, but you were wrong to assume that this had anything to do with me trying to show you how wrong you are. Or maybe you know more than i do and i am the one who is delusional.

This has everything to do with holding you to YOUR words and asking you what the meanings are for your actions, because we can pretend that there isn't one, but there is one. Even when we say the isn't a reason behind it, there is one. Everything is everything. Something is something. It could never be nothing or it wouldn't exist.

But I am just talking. Sure, I will entertain your ideology, i may even accept it lovingly. Its no different than if I accept and love the trees because their leaves are green. You are an individual, and i am just spouting nonsense.
daf Interestingly misinterpreted what I said. Perhaps that's my failing.

This joke that we call modern life IS a's's Judge's Days of Our's Hannah Montana.

It's horribly ironic, tragic and hilarious all at the same time.

But this isn't who we are. I don't know who these characters are..and have little intention of conversing with them, except in a cursory.."this is a show" way.

For now, those who are real, are recognized. Those who aren't..are enjoyed, engaged and in some cases empathized with any show.

I'm waiting for the actors..after the show..when the stage has been broken down.

As you say..there IS a reality beneath, once the layers are peeled away. A reality that in short order, will be brought to the fore.
daf P.S. Brother_Ray calls these stage characters who cover the actors..the "mundanes." I always thought that was funny. 080531
They call me Truth what did I misinterpret? Oh, now i get it, nevermind.

How do you judge who is real from who is acting? do you judge them on what you think is reality? Do you judge them on what you think a real person should be? How do you make these decisions? Why do you make these decisions?

I have heard many of your words before. I have listened to you speak about life, about love, about relationships, about finding meaning in life and overcoming, evolving, and revolution. I even vaguely recall a blathe you made about something that happened to your daughter that greatly saddened me. The conclusions you draw on people here are interesting, and you speak as though you have it all figured out, but you admit that your words are schizophrenic. You contradict as we all do. Yet i find myself responding to you, not only because of my ego (i admit i have one) but because engaging you is like engaging myself, equally pointless, and absurdly meaningful.

I will continue to see you as a person, but for my reasons i will add a little salt to this steak so that it may taste better. Perhaps you have a lesson to teach. Perhaps you are just random and your words mean too little for you to actually follow yourself. Perhaps you are the real deal as you say.

There are many layers indeed, all of them unique in what they give the person who sees them. And that person who sees them often feels like they have unlocked the universal truth of the universe. But it is still subjective. The interpretation of that layer is left to the observer, to the believer.

I realize you have a belief, and that there is something that causes you to express it and praise it and raise it high. I have seen you denounce the beliefs of others, with words (however meaningless they may be to you) in the name of FUN, or habit, or SHOW. I agree that i can only see what you show me here, and I suppose you play with that truth, and it is evident that you have repeated it many times on here. I may even go far as to assume that you believe you are a mystery and that no one has the capacity or intellect or instinct to actually see you through your meaningless words and your long speeches.

But like i said before. Something isn't nothing and what you say reveals a great deal even if it is the opposite or what you mean or if you view it to be meaningless.

But the sun shines on you and you have been given the breath of life so it is a beautiful thing to have a conversation with someone blessed with the same earth as i. Indeed it is a privilege.
daf You don't judge them at all. You feel the energy..and when it's're dealing with a character..not the actor behind it. (hint hint) 080531
They call me Truth how do you know your feeling isn't judgment in disguise? 080531
dafremen Ahhh..for that...I direct you to the work of Ibn Arabi, brother. you'll find the answers to all of your inquiries about energy there. 080601
They call me Truth i am asking you do YOU know that YOUR feelings aren't just YOUR judgments. 080601
daf And again...i direct you to Ibn Arabi. this isn't a two blathe discourse you're asking for.

I wish it were this simple:

Step 1: Clear you mind.

Step 2: Love your brother

Step 3: Keep the goal of connection in mind.

Step 4: Note the reactions to the interface. Both your brother's reaction to YOUR input and your own internal reaction to HIS input.

Step 5: If you note a negative energy pattern (ie. sadness, anger, guilt..etc.) that is the work of a character..not the actor playing that character.

Now some folks play the character because they don't know they are playing a character..(having overidentified with their ego/intellect/self's memories. see also: science_of_religion) Some folks play the character for other reasons.

Palmolive commercial flashback: "You could be soaking in it!"

But it's not that simple.

It's even more complex than that. I'd love to put it into words for you..but I'm not sure I'd be successful.

I'm no Ibn Arabi.
. ! 080601
They call me Truth Okay, thanks for trying. If you can't properly explain it, how do you know you are properly implementing it?

Can you read your own internal energies?

What do they say?

Do they say anything at all?

Is there an ego involved in how you treat people that oppose your thoughts or behavior?

Is your ego involved in anything you do?
dafremen Absolutely. In fact, (and I only cite it as an indicator that this nature is there...not an excuse for indulging it..too much. : ) I have venus in the first house..which in astrology means..I tend to love the things I do.

I tend to love the things I create, say, write, draw, play..etc. And I do, in fact, read and enjoy my own works an awful lot.

I'd like to point out that you are not engaging in're trying to make a point..and it's getting a bit tedious...but eh, if you didn't want to read and understand the above named steps and realize that i DID describe the process sufficiently for a person of average intelligence to understand..hopefully we can agree that THAT is on you.

no one is going to hand you the answers to life's deepest riddles on a plate.

But you don't really want answers do you, silly Truth?

You're looking for errors...and ammo in order to make a point. Sigh..this is the sort of intellectual jerk off stuff that led me to jump into religion_vs_philosophy. I don't want to spar with you in the arena of Socratic dissection. It's a waste of time and energy.

Thanks anyway tho. Now run along and find a different playmate that you're more likely to have success with.

Oh..and play nice.
Temporary Enemy of Daf Here we see that TCMT has queried Dafremen in a sophisticated manner which leaves the latter figure feeling unsettled. This is revealed by Daf's inability to answer any of the well-formed questions, as usual, followed by his declaration that the Socratic method is tedious, as well as a waste of time and energy. One wonders if this means Daf will in the future abstain from using such tedious, inefficient methods himself.

Note that all of TCMT's questions involve topics Dafremen has previously been known to carry on about at great length. It is curious that for once, someone actually wants to know, and suddenly, Dafremen refuses to tell.

Also note the manner in which Dafremen masks his inarticulation with ad hominem attacks on TCMT. First he insinuates that TCMT may be of inferior intelligence, then he accuses TCMT of resorting to intellectual "jerking off". Lastly, he advises TCMT to "run along" and argue with someone whom might beget TCMT more success, which is to say, someone who will answer TCMT's questions in a straight-forward, intellectually honorable fashion. For it seems that TCMT has failed, along with almost everyone else, to elicit coherent argumentation from the Men of Dafre.
They call me Truth Daf, why do you interpret me in such a way? Why do you always assume the worst in people? I've been asking you the same questions since the religion vs philosophy page. Questions you have refused to answer directly so i continue to ask them. I want a direct conversation with you. But you have to insult me (not that i am completely surprised) when i still have not insulted you. But i suppose you get that impression, that i am building ammo. I have been trying not to make assumptions about you, assumptions that have been knocking on my door ever since first engaging you. But i guess it makes you feel better to think that I am trying to build ammo and my inquiry is dishonest. I see a profound contradiction in your actions and your beliefs (which i already have expressed to you) and I have been very curious as to why you do things that contradict yourself, that is why i continue to ask the same direct questions hoping i would get straight answers. 080601
daf Brother (and I mean that most sincerely) this is done.

When you have questions and you receive the answers and you don't accept them because they don't "jibe" for you's not a matter of just asking the questions again over and over until the answers change.

Accept the answers for what they are. Draw your own conclusions about who I am or what this means. That's fine. It's well and meant to be.

But why expect to engage someone forever with the same circles?

It's like spinning our wheels here.

Why do I do these things?

Why does the bird fly left instead of right? Why did that cloud look like a soldier and that one like a rabbit? Why does the sun only give us one moment at the beginning and one at the end in which to see the rainbow pageantry of the skies?

Because that's the way it happens. All of the answers in the world aren't enough to answer your questions.

They never end..and they never will. Things are the way they are...and do what they do..and seem how they seem.

Be content with that if you can.
I'll love you either way.
They call me Truth Asking you why you taunt people is not the same as asking why a bird flies left instead of right. Asking you what part of your nature does doing these things for fun help develop is not the same as asking why clouds sometimes takes the shape of figures.

If I ask you about your intentions and you start talking about nature and its mysteries how is that answering my questions. And then you insult me and my intelligence because I don't understand what your cryptic messages mean. Okay, lets pretend that I am of inferior intelligence like you continue to insinuate. Could you give me a straight answer?

You have ignored many of my questions entirely, responded with questions directed at me, responded with riddles and stories that have nothing to do with the question I asked (but of course this could just be in my inferior mind) and I have continued to ask not because I want the answers to change but because i want an Answer.

I am sure, based on your argument that you believe you have answered my questions, so I will give you a list of questions I did not feel you answered and you can go back and point to the places in which you did (I understand if this may be too much work for you) or you could answer them now, directly, and put me in my inferior place.

Or you could insult me some more and not answer them and say that you did is up to you. Do what you will with your freedom.
They call me Truth forget about that. I neither have the time or need to, I am quite clear on your answer now. 080602
what's it to you?
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