the_rebel_alliance_2 Dafremen see also: THE_REBEL_ALLIANCE Sorry, Seer, Spork..thought it was best to keep this thing manageable. Right off the bat, let me say that I disagree wholeheartedly with whoever said that energy without direction is a bad thing or a worthless thing. A revolution with no direction is preferable to no revolution at all, period. Apathy is a bad thing in any form, at this point. Gimme the enthusiasm, we'll find a direction to focus it in. Monkey with a hammer. That's the symbol that we've been using lately in our local quest to ignite this thing. It has a very simple meaning which I went into in Daffy_Nation. Here is a recap for the sake of brevity: We're always saying "What can I do? I'm just one person!" Here is the answer: "I'm not sure either, but doing something is certainly better than doing nothing." Like a monkey with a hammer, we can strike out in SOME direction and perhaps the momentum of our desire for change will be led to focus by our knowledge of what is right and what is wrong with our society. I realize that this answer may not be acceptable to some of you. Fine. TAKING_IT_TO_THE_STREETS was written to point out what is WRONG with our society. It also tries to point out some of the changes that I personally feel need to be made. I have also given more ideas about what I feel each of us can do under DAFFY_NATION. I've written something else which I will try to blather today if I can find a floppy drive that will read my disk here at the cybercafe. It has more ideas for the types of changes I see as productive uses of a social revolution. These are MY thoughts, not everyone's thoughts. That is really where I run into to much of this "messianic" "megalomaniac" "cult leader" crap. I speak my vision, voice my enthusiasm and (to be repetitive) my UNSTOPPABLE motivation and there aren't any opinions voiced, just a lot of "we can't because" and "we need this first"s and "who do you think you are?"s. You ask for direction and then call the first one to step to the plate a wanna be jesus. So much for the first of your EXCUSES to the plate! You HAVE been given ideas! You don't act on them. ACT ON THEM! OR come up with your own and ACT ON THOSE! Seer and spork have the right idea! Conviction first, direction second. Motivation and belief first, organization and focus second. As an engineer I've watched too many things die in committee, mainly because of all of the folks saying we can't, won't or shouldn't. There are diverse opinions on HOW to bring about change and on what changes to bring about. That requires consensus and will take time. To get this thing rolling, we need to find a few ideas that we can all agree on. What we can all agree on, I believe, is this: Something has got to change, and the change needs to be a positive one. Well there you have it. I propose we start now, and also propose that we stop yakking about how we can't and start proving that we can. Whoever said that we can only affect changes in our lives and the lives of the people around us missed the point completely. THAT is how the revolution will come about. One person at a time, one inner circle at a time, one community at a time...but all at once in many places around the world. I'm still spreading the word, doing my part, still TAKING_IT_TO_THE_STREETS and I won't be stopped. Sounds to me like Seer and Spork aren't about to be stopped either. So let's get this party started! What MORE do you need? 021207 ... Dafremen see also: THE_REVOLUTION_IS_AN_OPEN_HAND 021208 ... Suicide Snowman jesus christ, you act like this was all your idea.... 021208 ... Dafremen I'm not sure I understood that snowman. No I don't. This same idea is springing up everywhere, spontaneously. Db pointed out that people are sitting on the fence waiting for direction. I point out that direction has been offered, just not taken. I have no desire to LEAD a revolution, just to take part in one. I have no desire to be given credit for starting or bringing about a revolution. I simply want the privilege of seeing it happen in my lifetime. That is more than enough for me. I get the sneaking suspicion that ANYONE who stands up and calls for change will have you screaming "wanna-be messiah" at them. That is ridiculously unfair of you. If noone stands up, we'll all be called cowards. I'm standing up, regardless of what you may or may not think of me. The stakes of NOT doing something are just TOO high to let your opinions stop me. Our grandchildren will thank us when we pull this thing off. I hope that clears up my position. 021209 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] crystal. I too would like to see this happen in my lifetime. Not just because the_revolution would be a cool thing to witness, but because I believe the time is right. Good timing is essential to minimize the casualties and maximize the permanent effects. The organization and implementation of the Department_of_Homeland_Security should be a big slap right in everyone's face, in my opinion. It's creation is announcing the departure of our constitutional right to self-govern our nation. After all, I did not vote to give them this much power! I too, forsee the potential harm this presents rather than any good that may come of it. But instead, people shrug it off and make that "ehh" sound, indicative of non-interest. People have taken our freedoms for granted, and so now our freedoms are being taken away. For instance, do you notice how many people vote? If we were still a colony or if this was a monarchy everyone would be bitching about their voice not being heard... So now that we are in a position to make our voices heard, we remain silent. We choose neutrality and complacence rather than educate ourselves on a few important issues. The "issues" that our politicians display as playing cards are mere whispers of the real problems... They mention "campaign reform" when they should be crying REVOLUTION. Equating voters with dollars they seek re-election instead of positive change. My stance is this: It does not require that much effort to get involved... With a little education/information, a relatively small amount of effort, and some friendly cooperation among those who truly care, I really think we can make a HUGE difference for the better. Not only for US, but for the entire world who seems to be influenced heavily by USA. 021209 ... . um, i don't think anyone asked for your direction or wanted you to do anything. 021209 ... screwing for virginity the question is 10,000 years from now do you want america to be seen as what happens when people get lazy and dont try to change things, or do you want it to be seen as what happens when people get off their asses and change their environtment to make life better? it is time to get off our butts and change things for the better. start with small stuff: talk to a total stranger, help a person when they need it (and even if dont), give money or food to the poor, buy more from small buisnesses and stay awy from the walmarts and targets, it doesnt really matter what you do, but do something to break the cycle of selfishness and greed. and if enough people do all this and start to just be kind who knows what will happen? but you know what? i want to find out. 021209 ... phil I proposed a revelution once, I though it was good but people never follow through with their plans. Instinct always compells them to simpler ideals. A great move, thousands of civilians leaving america to live in foreign countries that don't ally with us. In times of negotiation and peace a move like this could stop war. 021209 ... minnesota_chris or maybe just a whole lot of dead americans... like Daniel Pearl... 021210 ... Dafremen "Give me liberty or give me death." Sounds like a lot of patriotic hooey huh? Here's the problem..I BELIEVE in that sh*t. I'm fully prepared to die, but I'd much rather LIVE. I like what virginity said up there. Whatever it takes, whatever you can do. How can what you are willing to do be too much to ask? And if you do nothing? Well at least stand back. Who asked you to speak up for the status quo? If you like it so much and you feel that there is no real threat of a revolution, what possible motivation could you have to speak out against us? I mean, if you embrace the status quo then YOUR side is in the lead, and since you don't think we're going anywhere with this thing, what have you got to fear or speak out against? Anything you would say against the revolution only serves to point out your uselessness to it at this point in your life and, even more interestingly, that you MUST at some level believe that we are actually willing to give this a try. Good! You're right! We are! And we will not fail! THAT is where you make your biggest mistake, pushing your lack of vision off on us. I don't have those limitations, I don't see the futility of this, I can't imagine anything wrong, insane or stupid about wanting to make the world a better place for my kids and my grand kids. If you, in some way agree with me on that point, that making the world a better place for the future is a good thing, then what could be more wrong, more stupid or more insane than sitting on your ass speaking out AGAINST those who would bring about that change? Nothing. You have met an unstoppable force worthy of meeting the immovable governments and entrenched way of living that you feel you can do nothing about. What makes you think that YOU can stand in our way? You are as powerless against us as you are against the status quo. As nonplayers, you should remain just that, non players. I'm more than happy to drag your apathetic butts toward a better future in spite of you. Mainly because, I care a lot more about your future than you think. 021210 ... ????? "Who asked you to speak up for the status quo? If you like it so much and you feel that there is no real threat of a revolution, what possible motivation could you have to speak out against us?" The motivation is that you're sometimes annoying. Like your last post. Honestly. It seems unrealistic and fake and divisive and grandiose even if you don't see it that way. You can say that any criticism directed toward you is some sort of de facto support of the "status quo", but that's really just political rhetoric. No one actually wants to do anything so dramatic as "stop you" in your passionate quest for utopia. You can't force people into black and white categories because they roll their eyes at your idealism. But no amount of positive thinking makes you an "unstoppable force". You're only an "unstoppable force" if you reason that term into meaninglessness. As human beings, we are all very stoppable forces. 021210 ... ?????? "You are as powerless against us as you are against the status quo." Oh yeah?? Well YOU'RE powerless against me!! Ha! ...Seriously, though, is this intentionally divisive? And Dafremen, at least admit that "The Seer" is an idiot. At least do that. 021210 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] Hey, I am an idiot! Who friggen cares... What right does that give you to follow me around and insult me? Please! Grow the fuck up, child! I realize that I am only provoking you to further your non-cause by slapping you in the face with my truth-stick, but I couldn't control it, sorry. You'll retort with your whiny little anger and your typical aggression, and I can't stop you... I look forward to your next outbursts, actually. They are exceedingly amusing. You see! What a dipshit I am for even responding to you. Let me be the first to admit it... Save you the trouble. I AM an idiot. Wow! SO stupid. SO STUPID. COWS are smarter than I am. I am slow and clueless too. I am blind. What do I see that hasn't been shown to me? NOTHING! And, boy, Let me tell you this... I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about most of the time! I just grunt and drool on the keyboard, while flailing my hands up and down striking random keys! It's A MIRACLE that any coherant sentences are even formed. SEE! uStiwOnkI2EecAjnaMWoNs Thank you! YOu have shown us the way! You and you alone should lead our revolution. In fact, we should all just kick back and allow you to revolutionize the world by yourself! I know you can. Your vast insights about the department_of_homeland_security rank up there with psychic friends... which, don't tell me... you founded right? Impressive! You are a fucking genius. I am in awe of your vast intelligence. Your ability to demonstrate anger and hostility is, bar none, a superior quality of yours... ignorance shmignorance! You're a star! 021210 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] Anyway... moving forward. I apologize to those of you who are actually trying to contribute here. I shouldn't waste bytes on fighting a battle that can have no winners. Dafremen, Screwing for Virginity, The Spork, stork daddy, I have renewed admiration for all of you. I totally agree with what you guys are saying about individual workings, personal conversations, goodness, strangers, etc... But there are those among us that have always behaved in that manner. There are people who are doing that right now, but is it effective enough? I believe there is strength in numbers. If we concentrate our efforts and focus our energy toward a common goal, there is NO LIMIT to what we could accomplish. The effect could be faster and more widespread if we worked together, and with others. Does anyone agree with me there? 021210 ... stork daddy no arguments with you this time ??????. 021210 ... Dafremen I've showed some of the things we've written here to a student paper at UCSD called La Voz Fronteriza. Although they are mainly a Latino Rights group, they have a secondary mission to fight imperialism and governmental domination of citizens. The folks I spoke to were in the middle of a 100 hour hunger strike protesting Operation Gatekeeper. They liked what we're doing here and suggested that we keep it up. They also alluded to the possibility of publishing anything that we have to say which coincides with their goals in their paper which has a decent, multi-campus readership. I was really jazzed by that. They've been around as a group for 27 years. Although they are still using the standard FIST IN THE AIR/BROWN PRIDE approach to activism, the passion that they have for their cause was a tangible thing. Seer, spork, anyone else, please email me so that we can iron out some of the areas of dissent and agreement between us. One thing that seems to make sense is that we A)List our grievances and B)Come up with a rudimentary list of goals. I'm happy to lead, follow or play secretary..it makes no difference to me. It's Time_2_Do_This thing! Unknown person, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. THAT is the basis for what you perceive is an all or nothing, black or white judgement on my part. How else should you be perceived? If you contribute nothing to the discussion other than naysaying then you contribute nothing but more of the same. We've heard how we can't do anything..I've heard it for years from the people all around me. I honestly don't want to listen to it anymore because it is, as I have said, counter-productive. If you have real, constructive ideas, out with em. If you don't, hey, I've got my neighbors and the TV set to tell me what you're telling me...save it man. You were more constructive when you were calling me a hypocrite and an egotistical asshole, at least you had something worthwhile to say back then. I wish you the best and I mean that...I just really don't see how we can march into a battle as daunting as the one which faces us AND still give due consideration to an opinion that says that what we're doing is wrong, stupid or a losing battle. You don't win battles by listening to the doomsayers and the chicken littles, you win battles by listening to those that are on your side and that have faith in your ability to win. We won't fail man. 021212 ... Dafremen P.S. Seer, I agree with you unequivocably on that point. The things we are doing need to be presented as a way of living, a micro-society. Not a religion, but a movement. Many people NEED to feel part of a greater whole in order to do what they would find undoable as individuals. I think we need to get organized, get a platform of some sort that we can all agree on and then MOVE! The time is right, as you mentioned before. If we are established as a group, and maintain our motivation, history will provide the catalyst for change that a movement such as ours requires. As long as our motives remain pure and our goals continue to be pursued with an eye toward a better future, we'll be ready for that opportunity and for the momentum that it will provide for social evolution. 021212 ... screwing for Suicide DafeeR ..:.]??? blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 021212 ... ??????? Jesus, Dafremen, I don't share your worldview, so I refuse to be judged by your values. Everything you say is just as contentious as anything I ever said, except I never pretended to be benevolent. How can I "contribute" (what I take to mean "comment on what we've said specifically and try not to disagree") when you haven't said anything specific? As you said yourself, you don't even know what your group stands for. Personally, I think that if you don't know what you stand for (specifically), then you're starting from the wrong place. If you really, honestly want to change something about society (or whatever) I think it should start with something specific, something concrete that makes intuitive sense--not just some vague dissatisfaction with modern life, because ya know what? People have always been dissatisfied with life. In my mind (and I know you disagree with this) you just want to have a "revolution" and it doesn't even matter what it's about. YOU are the doomsayer, I say. You're the one who is so dissatisfied with this world that you want to "revolutionize" it--except you're not even sure what the revolution's about. That's just crazy, and I have every right to tell you how misguided I think you are. 021212 ... ??????? And you can ignore my question if you want, but The Seer is an idiot, and you know it. 021212 ... ??????? And do you see what's happened now? We've all incurred the wrath of the Blah Guy. I hope you're all satisfied. 021212 ... ??????? Personally, Blah Guy, I don't think it's fair to put me in with the others. But that's just my opinion, and I guess you're the expert. 021212 ... Johnny Blahchren if my eyes begin to droop you must be part of the group! 021212 ... Strideo hmmm. . by revolution are we talking about a paradigm shift? an idealogical revolution were we make major changes to the way things are run through the realization that things could be different? or. . . a bloody revolt. physical warfare brought about by civil unrest? . 021212 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] well, we've decided to lean toward non-violence. 021212 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] Way more than a paradigm shift! An administrative/Intellectual/Societal renaissance is more like it. Although we all need a pardigm_shift in order to begin. That's sort of the first step... The_Inner_Revolution 021212 ... ??????? Okay... a renaissance. But the Renaissance didn't have revolutionaries, or plotters--it wasn't started by a bunch of bored 14th century Italians who were sitting around saying, "Hey, let's have a Renaissance." It just sort of happened. 021212 ... Strideo I know this remark is kind of stupid and inane, but ah . . the subject title of these threads just keeps reminding me Star Wars. I apoligize but I couldn't keep from saying it :P . 021213 ... [.:..The SeeR ..:.] This leads me to believe that you didn't read The_Rebel_Alliance to determine why this post is named this. It's in reference to a brilliant analysis by The_Spork when he commented in The Department_of_homeland_security page that bush's antics and the phony war on terror propaganda that he's selling to americans is not unlike Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's sneaky agenda to gain control of the senate AND the trade federation to make himself Emperor. (FYI: the department_of_homeland_security will unify many secretive, elite intelligence agencies.) 021213 ... ??????? In other words, The Seer's silly political views are based on a silly metaphor. 021213 ... Strideo yes I admit it. I didn't read the entire thread before making my little comment. . 021213 what's it to you? who go blather from