cloning sonic i wanna hear your guys agruments on this subject...either for or against it 030208 ... tourist Have We Arrived at Perfection? Is It Time to Stop the Blending of Genes? Are We Sure that No More Adaptation Is Nessessary? Then Go For It! 030209 ... birdmad Where are the clones? Send in the clones? (they're already here) [sorry, couldn't resist] 030209 ... kss duplicity and it m.keaton and he's in the restaurant saying "what are you doing here?" and the clone says "this is my favorite restaurant" and he says "well, it was my favorite restaurant first" and I laughed and laughed but I like stupid things anyway. 030209 ... cube I think we have to be a bit more specific here. There is the cloning of plants which, possibly due to our limited abilities to communicate, seems relatively harmless. The cloning of animals such as sheep may have some higher moral implications while the questions surrounding the cloning of humans is orders of magnitude more complex... ³ 030209 ... Blather Pharmacist and then there is the issue behind the type of cloning if this discussion centers on human cloning....tissue cloning for transplantation and research or full-form reproductive cloning to essentially duplicate someone i, for one, will admit to being both fascinated and terrified by the idea 030209 ... x we've been doing it to plants for quite awhile 030209 ... tourist A Boon for Lesbians, They can now Reproduce Asexualy. Personaly until we come up with an Artifcial Womb, I don't see the Point of all this. Besides Procreation is an Enjoyable Activity and a Wonderful form of Comunication. It's the Giving Birth Thing that is So Hard to Take, And Cloning so Far does Nothing to Avoid That! 030210 ... cube Why do I have this idea that Lesbians would not see procreation as an enjoyable_activity. They are probably even less enthusiastic about it as a wonderful_form_of_communication... ³ 030211 ... tourist What would I Know about the way Lesbians feel about Procreating? I just Know I like to watch. My Vasectomy kinda rules out Sperm Donation as an option. 030212 ... minnesota_chris they haven't perfected cloning. Dolly's cells were already old by the time she was born (had divided too many times and had the inevitable damage), and she wasn't able to live very long as a result. This is the main reason right now why humans shouldn't be cloned... most attempts spontaneously abort, and many others have birth defects or abnormally short life spans. 030214 ... Sam Vaknin There are two types of cloning. One involves harvesting stem cells from embryos ("therapeutic cloning"). These are the biological equivalent of a template. They can develop into any kind of mature functional cell and thus help cure many degenerative and auto-immune diseases. The other kind of cloning is much derided in popular culture - and elsewhere - as the harbinger of a Brave, New World. A nucleus from any cell of a donor is embedded in an egg whose own nucleus has been removed. The egg is then implanted in a woman's womb and a cloned baby is born nine months later. Biologically, the cloned infant is a replica of the donor. Cloning is often confused with other advances in bio-medicine and bio-engineering - such as genetic selection. It cannot - in itself - be used to produce "perfect humans" or select sex or other traits. Hence, some of the arguments against cloning are either specious or fuelled by ignorance. It is true, though, that cloning, used in conjunction with other bio-technologies, raises serious bio-ethical questions. Scare scenarios of humans cultivated in sinister labs as sources of spare body parts, "designer babies", "master races", or "genetic sex slaves" - formerly the preserve of B sci-fi movies - have invaded mainstream discourse. Still, cloning touches upon Mankind's most basic fears and hopes. It invokes the most intractable ethical and moral dilemmas. As an inevitable result, the debate is often more passionate than informed. I. Right to Life Arguments According to cloning's detractors, the nucleus removed from the egg could otherwise have developed into a human being. Thus, removing the nucleus amounts to murder. It is a fundamental principle of most moral theories that all human beings have a right to life. The existence of a right implies obligations or duties of third parties towards the right-holder. One has a right AGAINST other people. The fact that one possesses a certain right - prescribes to others certain obligatory behaviours and proscribes certain acts or omissions. This Janus-like nature of rights and duties as two sides of the same ethical coin - creates great confusion. People often and easily confuse rights and their attendant duties or obligations with the morally decent, or even with the morally permissible. What one MUST do as a result of another's right - should never be confused with one SHOULD or OUGHT to do morally (in the absence of a right). The right to life has eight distinct strains: IA. The right to be brought to life IB. The right to be born IC. The right to have one's life maintained ID. The right not to be killed IE. The right to have one's life saved IF. The right to save one's life (erroneously limited to the right to self-defence) IG. The right to terminate one's life IH. The right to have one's life terminated IA. The Right to be Brought to Life Only living people have rights. There is a debate whether an egg is a living person - but there can be no doubt that it exists. Its rights - whatever they are - derive from the fact that it exists and that it has the potential to develop life. The right to be brought to life (the right to become or to be) pertains to a yet non-alive entity and, therefore, is null and void. Had this right existed, it would have implied an obligation or duty to give life to the unborn and the not yet conceived. No such duty or obligation exist. IB. The Right to be Born The right to be born crystallizes at the moment of voluntary and intentional fertilization. If a scientist knowingly and intentionally causes in vitro fertilization for the explicit and express purpose of creating an embryo - then the resulting fertilized egg has a right to mature and be born. Furthermore, the born child has all the rights a child has against his parents: food, shelter, emotional nourishment, education, and so on. It is debatable whether such rights of the fetus and, later, of the child, exist if there was no positive act of fertilization - but, on the contrary, an act which prevents possible fertilization, such as the removal of the nucleus (see IC below). IC. The Right to Have One's Life Maintained Does one have the right to maintain one's life and prolong them at other people's expense? Does one have the right to use other people's bodies, their property, their time, their resources and to deprive them of pleasure, comfort, material possessions, income, or any other thing? The answer is yes and no. No one has a right to sustain his or her life, maintain, or prolong them at another INDIVIDUAL's expense (no matter how minimal and insignificant the sacrifice required is). Still, if a contract has been signed - implicitly or explicitly - between the parties, then such a right may crystallize in the contract and create corresponding duties and obligations, moral, as well as legal. Example: No fetus has a right to sustain its life, maintain, or prolong them at his mother's expense (no matter how minimal and insignificant the sacrifice required of her is). Still, if she signed a contract with the fetus - by knowingly and willingly and intentionally conceiving it - such a right has crystallized and has created corresponding duties and obligations of the mother towards her fetus. On the other hand, everyone has a right to sustain his or her life, maintain, or prolong them at SOCIETY's expense (no matter how major and significant the resources required are). Still, if a contract has been signed - implicitly or explicitly - between the parties, then the abrogation of such a right may crystallize in the contract and create corresponding duties and obligations, moral, as well as legal. Example: Everyone has a right to sustain his or her life, maintain, or prolong them at society's expense. Public hospitals, state pension schemes, and police forces may be required to fulfill society's obligations - but fulfill them it must, no matter how major and significant the resources are. Still, if a person volunteered to join the army and a contract has been signed between the parties, then this right has been thus abrogated and the individual assumed certain duties and obligations, including the duty or obligation to give up his or her life to society. ID. The Right not to be Killed Every person has the right not to be killed unjustly. What constitutes "just killing" is a matter for an ethical calculus in the framework of a social contract. But does A's right not to be killed include the right against third parties that they refrain from enforcing the rights of other people against A? Does A's right not to be killed preclude the righting of wrongs committed by A against others - even if the righting of such wrongs means the killing of A? Not so. There is a moral obligation to right wrongs (to restore the rights of other people). If A maintains or prolongs his life ONLY by violating the rights of others and these other people object to it - then A must be killed if that is the only way to right the wrong and re-assert their rights. This is doubly true if A's existence is, at best, debatable. An egg does not a human being make. Removal of the nucleus is an important step in life-saving research. An unfertilized egg has no rights at all. IE. The Right to Have One's Life Saved There is no such right as there is no corresponding moral obligation or duty to save a life. This "right" is a demonstration of the aforementioned muddle between the morally commendable, desirable and decent ("ought", "should") and the morally obligatory, the result of other people's rights ("must"). In some countries, the obligation to save life is legally codified. But while the law of the land may create a LEGAL right and corresponding LEGAL obligations - it does not always or necessarily create a moral or an ethical right and corresponding moral duties and obligations. IF. The Right to Save One's Own Life The right to self-defence is a subset of the more general and all-pervasive right to save one's own life. One has the right to take certain actions or avoid taking certain actions in order to save his or her own life. It is generally accepted that one has the right to kill a pursuer who knowingly and intentionally intends to take one's life. It is debatable, though, whether one has the right to kill an innocent person who unknowingly and unintentionally threatens to take one's life. IG. The Right to Terminate One's Life See "The Murder of Oneself". IH. The Right to Have One's Life Terminated The right to euthanasia, to have one's life terminated at will, is restricted by numerous social, ethical, and legal rules, principles, and considerations. In a nutshell - in many countries in the West one is thought to has a right to have one's life terminated with the help of third parties if one is going to die shortly anyway and if one is going to be tormented and humiliated by great and debilitating agony for the rest of one's remaining life if not helped to die. Of course, for one's wish to be helped to die to be accommodated, one has to be in sound mind and to will one's death knowingly, intentionally, and forcefully. II. Issues in the Calculus of Rights IIA. The Hierarchy of Rights All human cultures have hierarchies of rights. These hierarchies reflect cultural mores and lores and there cannot, therefore, be a universal, or eternal hierarchy. In Western moral systems, the Right to Life supersedes all other rights (including the right to one's body, to comfort, to the avoidance of pain, to property, etc.). Yet, this hierarchical arrangement does not help us to resolve cases in which there is a clash of EQUAL rights (for instance, the conflicting rights to life of two people). One way to decide among equally potent claims is randomly (by flipping a coin, or casting dice). Alternatively, we could add and subtract rights in a somewhat macabre arithmetic. If a mother's life is endangered by the continued existence of a fetus and assuming both of them have a right to life we can decide to kill the fetus by adding to the mother's right to life her right to her own body and thus outweighing the fetus' right to life. IIB. The Difference between Killing and Letting Die There is an assumed difference between killing (taking life) and letting die (not saving a life). This is supported by IE above. While there is a right not to be killed - there is no right to have one's own life saved. Thus, while there is an obligation not to kill - there is no obligation to save a life. IIC. Killing the Innocent Often the continued existence of an innocent person (IP) threatens to take the life of a victim (V). By "innocent" we mean "not guilty" - not responsible for killing V, not intending to kill V, and not knowing that V will be killed due to IP's actions or continued existence. It is simple to decide to kill IP to save V if IP is going to die anyway shortly, and the remaining life of V, if saved, will be much longer than the remaining life of IP, if not killed. All other variants require a calculus of hierarchically weighted rights. (See "Abortion and the Sanctity of Human Life" by Baruch A. Brody). One form of calculus is the utilitarian theory. It calls for the maximization of utility (life, happiness, pleasure). In other words, the life, happiness, or pleasure of the many outweigh the life, happiness, or pleasure of the few. It is morally permissible to kill IP if the lives of two or more people will be saved as a result and there is no other way to save their lives. Despite strong philosophical objections to some of the premises of utilitarian theory - I agree with its practical prescriptions. In this context - the dilemma of killing the innocent - one can also call upon the right to self defence. Does V have a right to kill IP regardless of any moral calculus of rights? Probably not. One is rarely justified in taking another's life to save one's own. But such behaviour cannot be condemned. Here we have the flip side of the confusion - understandable and perhaps inevitable behaviour (self defence) is mistaken for a MORAL RIGHT. That most V's would kill IP and that we would all sympathize with V and understand its behaviour does not mean that V had a RIGHT to kill IP. V may have had a right to kill IP - but this right is not automatic, nor is it all-encompassing. But is the Egg - Alive? This question is NOT equivalent to the ancient quandary of "when does life begin". Life crystallizes, at the earliest, when an egg and a sperm unite (i.e., at the moment of fertilization). Life is not a potential - it is a process triggered by an event. An unfertilized egg is neither a process - nor an event. It does not even possess the potential to become alive unless and until it merges with a sperm. Should such merger not occur - it will never develop life. The potential to become X is not the ontological equivalent of actually being X, nor does it spawn moral and ethical rights and obligations pertaining to X. The transition from potential to being is not trivial, nor is it automatic, or inevitable, or independent of context. Atoms of various elements have the potential to become an egg (or, for that matter, a human being) - yet no one would claim that they ARE an egg (or a human being), or that they should be treated as one (i.e., with the same rights and obligations). Moreover, it is the donor nucleus embedded in the egg that endows it with life - the life of the cloned baby. Yet, the nucleus is usually extracted from a muscle or the skin. Should we treat a muscle or a skin cell with the same reverence the critics of cloning wish to accord an unfertilized egg? Is This the Main Concern? The main concern is that cloning - even the therapeutic kind - will produce piles of embryos. Many of them - close to 95% with current biotechnology - will die. Others can be surreptitiously and illegally implanted in the wombs of "surrogate mothers". It is patently immoral, goes the precautionary argument, to kill so many embryos. Cloning is such a novel technique that its success rate is still unacceptably low. There are alternative ways to harvest stem cells - less costly in terms of human life. If we accept that life begins at the moment of fertilization, this argument is valid. But it also implies that - once cloning becomes safer and scientists more adept - cloning itself should be permitted. This is anathema to those who fear a slippery slope. They abhor the very notion of "unnatural" conception. To them, cloning is a narcissistic act and an ignorant and dangerous interference in nature's sagacious ways. They would ban procreative cloning, regardless of how safe it is. Therapeutic cloning - with its mounds of discarded fetuses - will allow rogue scientists to cross the boundary between permissible (curative cloning) and illegal (baby cloning). Why Should Baby Cloning be Illegal? Cloning's opponents object to procreative cloning because it can be abused to design babies, skew natural selection, unbalance nature, produce masters and slaves and so on. The "argument from abuse" has been raised with every scientific advance - from in vitro fertilization to space travel. Every technology can be potentially abused. Television can be either a wonderful educational tool - or an addictive and mind numbing pastime. Nuclear fission is a process that yields both nuclear weapons and atomic energy. To claim, as many do, that cloning touches upon the "heart" of our existence, the "kernel" of our being, the very "essence" of our nature - and thus threatens life itself - would be incorrect. There is no "privileged" form of technological abuse and no hierarchy of potentially abusive technologies. Nuclear fission tackles natural processes as fundamental as life. Nuclear weapons threaten life no less than cloning. The potential for abuse is not a sufficient reason to arrest scientific research and progress - though it is a necessary condition. Some fear that cloning will further the government's enmeshment in the healthcare system and in scientific research. Power corrupts and it is not inconceivable that governments will ultimately abuse and misuse cloning and other biotechnologies. Nazi Germany had a state-sponsored and state-mandated eugenics program in the 1930's. Yet, this is another variant of the argument from abuse. That a technology can be abused by governments does not imply that it should be avoided or remain undeveloped. This is because all technologies - without a single exception - can and are abused routinely - by governments and others. This is human nature. Fukuyama raised the possibility of a multi-tiered humanity in which "natural" and "genetically modified" people enjoy different rights and privileges. But why is this inevitable? Surely this can easily by tackled by proper, prophylactic, legislation? All humans, regardless of their pre-natal history, should be treated equally. Are children currently conceived in vitro treated any differently to children conceived in utero? They are not. There is no reason that cloned or genetically-modified children should belong to distinct legal classes. Unbalancing Nature It is very anthropocentric to argue that the proliferation of genetically enhanced or genetically selected children will somehow unbalance nature and destabilize the precarious equilibrium it maintains. After all, humans have been modifying, enhancing, and eliminating hundreds of thousands of species for well over 10,000 years now. Genetic modification and bio-engineering are as natural as agriculture. Human beings are a part of nature and its manifestation. By definition, everything they do is natural. Why would the genetic alteration or enhancement of one more species - homo sapiens - be of any consequence? In what way are humans "more important" to nature, or "more crucial" to its proper functioning? In our short history on this planet, we have genetically modified and enhanced wheat and rice, dogs and cows, tulips and orchids, oranges and potatoes. Why would interfering with the genetic legacy of the human species be any different? Effects on Society Cloning - like the Internet, the television, the car, electricity, the telegraph, and the wheel before it - is bound to have great social consequences. It may foster "embryo industries". It may lead to the exploitation of women - either willingly ("egg prostitution") or unwillingly ("womb slavery"). Charles Krauthammer, a columnist and psychiatrist, quoted in "The Economist", says: "(Cloning) means the routinisation, the commercialisation, the commodification of the human embryo." Exploiting anyone unwillingly is a crime, whether it involves cloning or white slavery. But why would egg donations and surrogate motherhood be considered problems? If we accept that life begins at the moment of fertilization and that a woman owns her body and everything within it - why should she not be allowed to sell her eggs or to host another's baby and how would these voluntary acts be morally repugnant? In any case, human eggs are already being bought and sold and the supply far exceeds the demand. Moreover, full-fledged humans are routinely "routinised, commercialized, and commodified" by governments, corporations, religions, and other social institutions. Consider war, for instance - or commercial advertising. How is the "routinisation, commercialization, and commodification" of embryos more reprehensible that the "routinisation, commercialization, and commodification" of fully formed human beings? Curing and Saving Life Cell therapy based on stem cells often leads to tissue rejection and necessitates costly and potentially dangerous immunosuppressive therapy. But when the stem cells are harvested from the patient himself and cloned, these problems are averted. Therapeutic cloning has vast untapped - though at this stage still remote - potential to improve the lives of hundreds of millions. As far as "designer babies" go, pre-natal cloning and genetic engineering can be used to prevent disease or cure it, to suppress unwanted traits, and to enhance desired ones. It is the moral right of a parent to make sure that his progeny suffers less, enjoys life more, and attains the maximal level of welfare throughout his or her life. That such technologies can be abused by over-zealous, or mentally unhealthy parents in collaboration with avaricious or unscrupulous doctors - should not prevent the vast majority of stable, caring, and sane parents from gaining access to them. 031014 ... cause i can Leon is awed by avowed megalomaniacle narcissist Sam V's astonishing breadth and but did you even try to adequately explain the whole process of nuclear transfer? We're all driving towards the dystopia with well what started out as the impetus of our most humane/progressive/enlightened aspirations. Can we purge, excise human nature through the prodigies of bio-technology? 041109 ... cause i can Actually Sam, you're like the late 80's early 90's hammer. I sho' can't touch this. So here I am hurling non-sequiters out of the darkness of envy and yes cognitive impairment. I still think that there is a ominous truth that will rise from beneath the deepest seas of our advancements, progress and praise. We are eager for utopia but what will be wrought out of our efforts will be decidedly dystopic. Clarify. No. 'Cause I can't. 041109 ... . Leon sounds like he didn't ever bother to read Sam's informed distillation but not at all reductive in a condescending or patronizing way, contribution to this page 041109 ... oldephebe uh..i haven't read through this page..but aren't you guys talking about (at least as far as the process that produced the still as yet undefiled darling dolly the sheep) somatic cell nuclear transfer? that's right mr. president we're not talking about bombing our nations livestock...please resume reading your funny papers compliments of bazooka joe bubble gum... wow i feel like we could just kinda get ensnared in the whole unsubstantiated murky universe of ascribing precise moral judgements to bio-medical processes - what a faciley constructed labyrinthe of albeit passionate but not at times empirically substantiated tactic of argumentation... ... mebbe it's just me, aren't i the one usually responsible for opting out of the rigors of forensically substantiated proofs to faciley or at least emotionally obfuscating the issue with appeals to one set of figurative and poetic touchstones..eloquence does not beget the certainty of an algorythm whelped in the collective womb of several MIT phd candidates..dire denouments all aside... i think i better bone up on this issue before really chiming in here ... 041109 ... oldephebe uh..i haven't read through this page..but aren't you guys talking about (at least as far as the process that produced the still as yet undefiled darling dolly the sheep) somatic cell nuclear transfer? that's right mr. president we're not talking about bombing our nations livestock...please resume reading your funny papers compliments of bazooka joe bubble gum... wow i feel like we could just kinda get ensnared in the whole unsubstantiated murky universe of ascribing precise moral judgements to bio-medical processes - what a faciley constructed labyrinthe of albeit passionate but not at times empirically substantiated tactic of argumentation... ... mebbe it's just me, aren't i the one usually responsible for opting out of the rigors of forensically substantiated proofs to faciley or at least emotionally obfuscating the issue with appeals to one set of figurative and poetic touchstones..eloquence does not beget the certainty of an algorythm whelped in the collective womb of several MIT phd candidates..dire denouments all aside... i think i better bone up on this issue before really chiming in here ... 041109 ... oldephebe hey Lenny here's a rueful tune "...sing loudly the Baconian Anthem 'Relieve Mans Estate Conquer Nature" or something like that... .... 041113 ... oldephebe Dr. Lenny: hey man..what's that? I can't hear you through all the professional hubris..and of course my soul being grinded down after so many years of trying to pawn myself off as being relevant while feeding out of the trough of the public dole...and all the agonizing hours of constructing public policy for heretofore esoteric constituencies of unknown economic and biological potential. Rick Rubin MC: "Ladies and Gentlemen! I give you Dr. Lenny!" Lenny: "Er I.. I ..Am I still here? Is my mike on? Am I still relevant? Can I BE relevant as I trundle out the sophistry of hubris, hyperbole and a sermonette of obsolescent and hypocritical outrage all suffused in this gigantic gum ball of fecund feces. Sure it's kinda hard to swallow? So what's not to like?" ... 041113 ... oldephebe Dennis Miller:"Dr. Lenny, but so than do you have any anxiety about a nihilistic culture's propensity to degrade any indice of idealism?" Pres. Dubya Bush:"Heh. Now see here. They didn't tell me anything about ideas and and propellars. I got the cards right here on what you're supposed to ask me. Heh. You're that funny one from Saturday NIght Live Right? Is this a skit? Am I on TV right now? I told Mr. Cheney that my Daddy thinks I sould tell more Jokes. Thank you Mr.Funny Man. Would you like a biscuit? Dennis Miller (the ideological hoar of CNBC who can be pimped out to prosyletize and distract and dissemble for the right price)..:...Er no thankyou Mr.President. My apologies Sir. My staff will feel the full brunt of my imperially now Republican ire. (Shifts uncomfortably and turns toward another camera looking for the bio ethicist who isn't there.) Pres Dubya again:"Hey put me back on. Meet the Nation can wait. Mr.Cheney or that nice black man mah daddy's general, always answers the hard questions. I think I'm having a good time with that Sat nite live feller. Hey! I like to grunt too when I get mad. Hey looka this! (Pres. Bush then proceeds to simulate a pig rutting against the corner of his stately prop desk oblivious to the consternation of the secret service poeple and his personal staff.) 041113 ... RIC that's "..a sermonette of obsolescent and insincere/inconsistant/incoherent (you pick the appropriate qualifier they're all apt.)..moral outrage masquerading as the sum total of all the knowledge and experience I've acquired over my 40= years of public service. ... 041113 what's it to you? who go blather from