arbeit_macht_frei dafremen "The American Dream is based on the idea that if you work hard and play by the rules..you can achieve freedom in this country." Arbeit Macht Frei: "Work makes (one) free." (Slogan wrought in iron above the gate at Auschwitz which greeted inmates as they returned from slaving for their overseers.) 070806 ... dosquatch Similarities in clever marketing slogans aside, there is a substantial difference here - that of not being surrounded by iron fence. This is not the Nazi Amerika you are looking for. 070806 ... i you're not surrounded by an iron fence, you're surrounded by your mass media and your mass entertainment. your mediocre education, your shitty job and your fucking war. IT'S A PRISON FOR YOUR MIND. now go kill yourself in youtube so we can all watch. go! 070806 ... forsaken by a toaster "I": CLERBLOINKULA! AHAHAHA!!!! FBAT FOR PRESEDENT... That's YOUR beliefs, so is mine. Vote for me, you will not suffer. FIRST PRESEDENT NOT BORN IN THE U.S.! FIRST PRESEDENT WHO HAS BEEN FORSAKEN BY AN APPLIANCE!! Just being silly. Be fun! Need fun not a war. Just for fun all wear bright t-shirts and say: CLERBLOINKULA! AHAHAHA!!!! 070806 ... forsaken by a toaster GEEKIN! 070806 ... dafremen Indeed, the prison is for your mind. The promise is that you will work hard, play by the rules and be something BESIDES exploited and lied to for doing so. If that's not the promise...then well..besides the physical barriers, where's the big differences in slogans? The purpose of both is to keep large masses scheduled for exploitation and subsequent disposal so busily engaged in trying to reach some "goal" that they stop being outraged by the nature of their abuse and instead focus on "achievment" within the system that abuses them. Are the differences so glaring as all of that? Not really, but because taking our direction to its ultimate conclusion in words is such a shock to the average belief system, that denial sets in... (Not here...we're free. We can...ummm survive and escape the boredom we're surrounded by..if we do what we're told, and we can...even "succeed" (if we're willing to sell out by joining the mass exploitation of our fellow human beings in one way or another.) 070806 ... Ouroboros I do agree with you dafremen- that german slogan has great weight in its meaning for me (being one of the member's of the tribe, the details/history/images/stories of the jew's persecution in nazi germany was shoved down my throat, burned into my eyes a la a clockwork orange)- and the sickness and sadness of 'the american dream' is pressured from all around me by my family, peers, etc in this city of lost angels. 070806 ... dosquatch Daf: "The promise is that you will work hard, play by the rules and be something BESIDES exploited and lied to for doing so." And what is the lie? Unemployment is low. The vast majority of able bodies are gainfully employed. Opportunities for education and training are abundant. If you do not care for your particular employment, you are free to seek another job. You are free to seek education for a better job - regardless of race, creed, or gender. What IS the lie? The lie, it seems, is one that we have told ourselves, and that you will find nowhere in that promise. The lie is the nature of "success". If you are expecting a posh life of luxury, you're likely to be disappointed. Success is far simpler - steady income such that you can provide for the needs of you and your family. Food, shelter, clothing. Success isn't found at work. Success is found in your heart. Success is friends and family. Work is just work. If you think success is found in business, you are not chasing the dream. You are chasing the lie. Daf: "The purpose of both is to keep large masses scheduled for exploitation and subsequent disposal so busily engaged in trying to reach some "goal" that they stop being outraged by the nature of their abuse and instead focus on "achievment" within the system that abuses them." Like I said... Daf: "Are the differences so glaring as all of that?" Actually, fuck yes, the differences are that glaring. Should you have missed them: We do not have a police state. There are not members of the standing army, armed with M16's, outside on the streets. We are free to speak our minds in public, even if what we speak is an opinion directly opposing the government. We are free to travel without getting approval from and showing cause to government officials. We are not burning warehouses full of people alive because they are Jewish. Or black. Or gay. Or for whatever difference you care to cite. This just isn't happening here. To suggest that corporate greed is equivalent to this sort of oppression is disrespectful to those who have ACTUALLY SUFFERED this sort of oppression. To be fair, I believe that a great deal that has been done by the Bush administration is completely counter to the ideals upon which this nation was founded. Spying on citizens, massive black holes of secrecy, the whole smell of "we're above the law", the political homogenization of agencies that should not be politicized (see gonzales and the DOJ)... I could go on. If you care to have a rational discussion about why such things are bad, what should be different, and why, I'm game, but none of this rises to a level that warrants playing the Nazi card. That we can have this conversation should be part of the evidence. 070806 ... forsaken by a toaster Actually, I'm going to be serious for the moment. I agree with you on the inadequate social education matter, the massive unemployment rate. The other concerns I have are the education expenses and where education leads you in the future after spending all that money on education, you are taking a gamble with the degree that you receive if you will be employed in the field you where trained in or not, for example; I could have been trained in the field of Computer Aided Drafting and Design. I am promised by the training facility in which I attend to have a decent paying job in the AutoCAD field. A year later I graduate and receive the certification in the course of study. Years go by repetitively applying for jobs in that and still unemployed. This is something that happens quite often to people who have wasted a year or more in a trade school and nothing comes of it. You could even have a master’s degree in computer science and still have a problem with becoming employed in that field. This happens to many citizens; they are educated for their dreams and still end up with dead-end jobs. 070806 ... dafremen "We do not have a police state. There are not members of the standing army, armed with M16's, outside on the streets." (That's because for the most part, we are following the rules that have been established for us. The farmer doesn't beat his livestock until they try to sneak under the fence. Let's flash back to Kent State where Armed National Guardsmen killed 4 students, 2 of whom weren't even protesting at the time. I believe they had their rifles out, I'm not sure if they were M-16s. I can also show you a picture of the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention, where the people gathered to protest there were assailed BRUTALLY for speaking out in a manner that was considered threatening to the establishment and its agenda at the time. If that isn't enough to suggest that we live in a growing police state, add the Tazer death a year and a half ago in LaSalle, Colorado of a 22 year old "suspected" of growing pot in his backyard. After he ran and was tazered to death by the officer, a subsequent investigation revealed that the officer's dash camera had "malfunctioned." Noted in the report was the fact that all stops prior to the one in question, and all stops after the stop in question...WERE recorded by the camera equipment. The officer was cleared of all charges. Bush also passed ANOTHER bill extending the ability of law enforcement to wiretap without a warrant. Again, no suggestion of a growing police state there.) "We are free to speak our minds in public, even if what we speak is an opinion directly opposing the government." (Not true. You are free to speak your mind in public if you have a permit to do so, otherwise for as long as it doesn't violate any local "decency" or "disturbance of the peace" ordinances, which can and are liberally applied in many if not all cases where you have no permit and the mainstream doesn't want to hear your message.) "We are free to travel without getting approval from and showing cause to government officials." (Not true. Travelling across the border into the U.S. ALWAYS begins with the question (asked by a government offical): "What was the purpose of your visit in (insert the name of your vacation destination here.)" Always. You must produce identification upon demand and that information is logged. And on more than ONE occasion, an out-of-state plate on a hoop-dee car has been pulled over simply to determine what the "visitors from out of state" are up to.) "We are not burning warehouses full of people alive because they are Jewish. Or black. Or gay. Or for whatever difference you care to cite. This just isn't happening here." (No, of course not. We've determined that we can get much more from them by keeping them alive like livestock. We've also determined that the more ethnic groups we have at each other's throats, the easier it is to keep them from uniting against a common exploiter.) To suggest that corporate greed is equivalent to this sort of oppression is disrespectful to those who have ACTUALLY SUFFERED this sort of oppression. (That's absurd. A generation suffered horrible abuses at the hands of deluded maniacs, this is true, but you would compare 6 million people's deaths to the wholesale re-education of BILLIONS of minds in order to persuade those minds that selling out their lives in a factory is achievment? (or a sales floor, or a warehouse, or a cubicle or an office...sure change jobs, that'll make it better...that makes it freedom). We've sold out the freedoms of BILLIONS of future Americans for "security", and you would DARE to compare the suffering of 6 Million for 8 years to the tragically wasted lives of hundreds of MILLIONS of living Americans, hundreds of millions of dead Americans and BILLIONS of future Americans who don't even have the SATISFACTION of looking their oppressors in the eye? That have no idea they are even being exploited? The victims of the Nazi Holocaust were certainly the most stoic, heroic and maniacally treated of our human tragedies...but to compare the tragedy of their dead...with the plight of our living? The Jews had the Allies on their side to liberate them...what mighty force do those forced into public schools for re-education have? The Jews had the solidarity of their faith and their suffering to bind them together. We have been denied even that. We are solitary individuals fed on the notion of rugged individualism to the point that we don't recognize unity unless told to..(ala 9/11 patriotism.)) I really don't want to have a discussion with you, rational or otherwise. I'm finding it hard to believe that I've wasted so much of my life going back and forth about someone about an opinion that I don't agree with. I don't care to convince you, and the fact that you're set on convincing (me? yourself?) someone, just shows how little you value you own time. I don't know you. You don't know me. How is your opinion of any value to me...and likewise...of what value is my opinion to you? Trophy? 070807 ... daf -"back and forth about someone" +"back and forth with someone" 070807 ... dosquatch Daf: "I really don't want to have a discussion with you, rational or otherwise. I'm finding it hard to believe that I've wasted so much of my life going back and forth about someone about an opinion that I don't agree with. I don't care to convince you, and the fact that you're set on convincing (me? yourself?) someone, just shows how little you value you own time." Ah. See, you wrote, I answered, you answered my answer. See, I mistook this as conversation. You understand how I could make such an error, I trust. Too true, I don't care if you agree with me or not. Personally, I find debate a useful mental exercise. Having the weak spots in what I think pointed out by a motivated outside party usually has the effect of strengthening my convictions. Your experience might be different. So, whatever. Carry on, carry on :-) 070807 ... dafremen Beliefs and convictions are our prime vanity though...aren't they? =) "I believe this", and "I believe that"..and the universe could give crap one about any of it. Change them, stack them...collect all 58 and trade them with your friends! It won't change a thing about the way things really are..just a little comfort for a lonely soul echo reflected off the world. It is my BELIEFS that are suspect above all things and most likely to lead me astray. I discard them as quickly as they prove themselves logically unworkable. (Attachment disorder has its advantages.) My current theory, with no supporting data at this time, is that you're playing the Devil's advocate and are probably someone I'd invite to my next party. Course, I've been wrong before (precisely when disposible beliefs came in most handy..) 070807 ... dafremen Ouroboros: I empathize and wonder how many really realize that the world is converting from being economically composed of a billion entrepeneurs, to being a globe-sized "work camp" with several government run "departments" (read: countries) which corporate giants can then farm the resources (read: man hours) from. toaster guy: Absolutely. Remember all of the hype about computer jobs? How they were growing at an exponential rate? Well, what they didn't tell us, is that once we got to a certain experience level, some human resources goon would look our years of experience and our last job title up on a table and determine that the company could save more money by hiring another kid fresh out of school. (Bravo for the kid, by the way. I mean he probably worked for it too.) They created a fast-food labor market in hi-tech areas by persuading the middle class to invest in educating themselves in those areas. Cost to corporate America for the training of an endless source of I.T. professionals? Little to nothing..just some initial "computer job projections." 070807 ... dafremen I wrote recently (somewhere) about how it feels like there is a balancing act going on between making us ill to suck the money out of us, and keeping u alive long enough to get as much labor out of us as they can. One wonders why there are so many symptom relievers and very few cures if medical science is truly working on the cure? Could it be the same reason that consumer goods are made to break down shortly after the warranties expire? (If there's any warranty at all?) Could the wholesale sugaring up of our food tastes (Lucky Charms, Mountain Dew and Pop Tarts kids?) be related to the growing size of the diabetic supplies aisle at the pharmacy? To the growing number of weight loss procedures performed? To the growing number of DEATHS due to heart disease and diabetes complications? Are we taught to like foods that are bad for us as children so that when we grow up food manufacturers can justify the large scale production of slow-acting poisons in the name of "giving the public what it wants"? Man this chocolate cake is good.. 081126 ... Ouroboros a_scanner_darkly 081127 ... hsg "balancing act going on between making us ill to suck the money out of us, and keeping u alive long enough to get as much labor out of us as they can." i believe the optimum_convergence point is found via computers. i'd imagine many, many parameters are input, ie shopping trends, Myers_Briggs_tests, disposable_income, religious_tendencies, UPC_trends.. upc trends.. bars, BARS, bars indeed, eugenics_values. just a guess. but is freedom free? freedom_isn't_free freedom_is_a_choice, i agree, but the're terms_and_conditions. we pay a price in making that choice. i believe the price is to know_thyself; the costs are our addictions, clinging to a sense_of_identity, afraid to see ourselves as part of something larger. perhaps it is all based on fear of being alone. i think though that service enters into the equation somewhere. and i think to serve selflessly until the will is genuine is the only way to become part of that something_larger. but supposing one did reach the top of up here a midst all types of plans, wouldn't to be truly free mean that one could also willingly and sincerely serve all those one their way up? then one wouldn't feelonely because there'd be connection by common intent. but if one were to "arrive" atop not having learned to give freely of oneself then they you feel truly alone and empty. the actualocation seems irrelevant compared to attitude. oddly enough there're four points to the triangle_yantra on which i've meditated for fifteen years now. there's a centerpoint. depending on how you look at it though you can "transport" yourself to any of the other three perspectives. i think the metaphorm is apt. these are just concepts. i don't feel particularly attached to them except for maybe the yantra thing, cuz it's pretty. 090617 ... In_Bloom God bless the everyman and the special little snowflakes too But wait, they're one and the same Who knew? 090618 ... minnesota_chris it makes me a lot more free. But, since my blog is read by a lot of people at work, I'm less free to be outrageous, or to complain about work. But whatevs. 090618 ... Ouroboros I resent seeing these words here 090619 ... minnesota_chris bah, like you were at Auschwitz 090620 what's it to you? who go blather from