its_all_out_there dafremen Ok...I suppose a moment of reflection is in order..and in honor of Mr. Troof..it might be time to put some perspective on all of this. Why is our reaction to something that we don't agree with, approve of or like the other guy's fault? I mean what control does HE have over our reactions? He can only control his own actions..and only be responsible for his OWN actions. Is it that we feel the need to impose consequences? Is it that we have no control over our reactions? Or is it that we have no control over his actions..and must seek to establish that control in order to restore our piece of mind? Granted, the world shouldn't be full of assholes. But I'm sorry..the reality is..that the world DOES contain assholes. They are abrasive and do suck major balls. But how does that relate to US? Is it because we feel imposed upon? Hurricanes impose upon us every year..but because we realize consciously that we can exert no control over the weather..we accept it and don't go apeshit trying to stop the hurricane or berate the hurricane. Is there much difference, in the end, between a hurricane which doesn't respond to our anger and frustration..and an asshole who doesn't respond? Aren't they both futile wastes of our energies? Who blows into the wind? Who is it that doesn't take cover from the hurricane? Or the fart if you prefer? Why is it always OUTSIDE of us that our reactions seem to originate? Not the actions that stirred them, mind you, but the actual reactions themselves.. The vast majority of our problems seem (and I'm going out on a limb here) to stem from our inability to control OURSELVES..mostly because we've gotten used to dictating how our environment should be, in order to avoid taking stock..and realizing that we aren't happy because we focus to closely on the perceived issues outside of us..and not the issues that caused the reaction in the first place..which reside WITHIN us. Why DOES the asshole bother us when he's just another asshole? If we have to have a secure, agreeable environment in order to be happy..what hope is there for a lasting happiness? Brother_ray told a story once. Regardless of what you may think of me, brother_ray is a very astute man. A very gentle...very wise man. He spoke of a guy who bugged the shit out of him. He called the man Brother_Sandpaper. For our purposes...let's call him Brother_Asshole. Ray said he got so frustrated..that against his normal nature..he snapped a couple of times at Brother_Asshole. Then one day...he went into his tent and asked for guidance. (Brother_Ray is what I'd call..an unorthodox Christian.) "Lord", he asked, "why are you torturing me so by placing me near this person?" To his surprise...came a response: "Why Ray! What's wrong? Can't you see that Brother_Sandpaper is your friend? He's been brought here to help you find your rough edges..and work on them. To make them smooth so that you cannot have your peace disrupted..no matter where you are...or who you have to deal with." Ray was taken aback a bit. It'd never occurred to him that perhaps..the problem wasn't Brother_Asshole at all. See..Brother_Asshole was only Brother_Asshole's problem. But the unhappiness that Ray felt when dealing with him..that was Ray's problem..and only Ray could solve it. Ray got up early the next morning and made some coffee. He waited until he saw Brother_Asshole emerge from his tent to start a fire..and offered him a cup of java. At first Brother_Asshole looked at Ray suspiciously. And why shouldn't he? Ray had reacted harshly to him..HIM..sent there to show Ray where his rough edges were..his friend. But they got past that..the coffee was accepted. And soon, through the stranger's gruff.."unacceptable" manner..understanding began to develop. Ray had learned how to handle Brother_Asshole's demeanor. He'd learn to accept it where he could..and ignore it where he couldn't. And not a week passed before they were the best of friends. That friendship has gone on 20 years now. And yes..this is a true story. It's not out there that the problems lie, if there are any at all. Things are what they are...and it's up to us to adjust..and find out WHY..if we are TRULY happy beings..that we embrace unhappiness and indignation so readily. Best of luck to you. No promises from me..you should know that by now. After all..we could ALL use a little smoothing. Present company included. So, keep those cards and letters coming. But read them first..carefully...closely. You're writing to yourself as well, whether you know it or not. 080602 ... unhinged 'our enemy is our best teacher' the buddha because by examining what we react to and why we can choose to be calmer, nicer; not for the good of others (although that's a nice side effect) but for the good of ourselves but the buddha also propounded right speech; the words you say or think rehearse who you are. ( i still rehearse my anger a damn lot) 080602 ... Lemon_Soda Try not to think that the last conversation you had with someone sum's up their worth, both to you and the rest of us. I can't believe how many freindships that have lasted for years have been cast aside over one conversation. And I don't care if it fits or not on this blathe, its just what came to mind. 080602 ... dafremen it was perfect. and it was "right speech." intent determines right speech. not words. 080602 ... unhinged and what exactly would be the point of sabotaging your own intent? dude, that even just sounds like a load of bullshit. if you didn't intend to come across as an asshole, then why would you use the words to make you perceived as an asshole? (yeah yeah, i know what your answer to that question is so i guess that makes them essentially rhetorical) along with right speech comes right action karma comes back to you when your intention is twisted the response to it gets twisted so just be straight then your path becomes straight (you would definitely expend a lot less energy around here defending yourself) or just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should 080602 ... Fan L_S that is great advice. 080602 ... dafremen because i do do0d. thats it. and defending myself is writing..observing reactions..both theirs and mine..is growth. that is how i see it. besides, asshole is a relative term. im no idi amin...but you know...a brother does what he can. 080602 ... dafremen i had to come back just before bed.. I was pondering the irony of you trying to teach me..the same things that I spoke of to such a ho-hum crowd 3,4,5 years ago. do_right the_path the_stream thoughts_on_these_reflections reflections_on_this_illusion did you think i'd forgotten? and has it even occurred to you..that i still know and believe? ironic if anything do0d.. what in the name of all that is buddhist are you talking about? the path is winding...and doesn't always lead where you'd think it would. some day..perhaps we'll laugh over this. one day...perhaps you'll happen across the stones i've left here and understand more about my actions and words than you do today. in any event..im so glad to see you working your way down the_path. 080602 ... unhinged forget it; just forget it. and what you said 3,4,5 years ago is nothing like how you've been acting in the past few weeks, do as you will. i change you change we all change i see what i want you see what you want we all see what we want so just forget it talking to you is like arguing with a wall 080602 ... unhinged (my point was in a little plain english that if you don't have the intention of being an asshole then why pick words that make you sound like one? or so long as your intent is supposedly good it doesn't matter that the words you say are hurtful? that my friend is what i believe to be a load of shit. there is no such thing as hurtful words with good intentions. words ARE action. so unless you want the reaction to your words to be all twisted and angry, maybe you should make the fucking path between your intentions and your actions a little straighter oh yeah, but it's my job to interpret what you really meant from what you actually said in words on a screen) 080602 ... unhinged i get it; my assumption that you didn't actually mean to come off like an asshole must be the problem here 080602 ... daf why make this place..and the interpretation of the words here a job at all? aren't all of the answers sought to the nature of the world and its inhabitants within already? the world is what it is. acceptance is the name of the game. lessons abound within that one word, the hypocrisy of another changes nothing 080603 ... daf a friend told a story once. reading these pages it came to mind: An avid student of Buddhist teachings, would often discuss them with a Master . The two lived across the river from one another One day, the student felt inspired and wrote the following poem: I bow my head to the heaven within heaven Hairline rays illuminating the universe The eight winds cannot move me Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus Impressed by himself, the student dispatched somebody to hand-carry this poem to the Master. He felt certain that the Master would be just as impressed, maybe be even recognize his enlightenment. The "eight winds" in the poem referred to praise, ridicule, honor, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery - interpersonal forces of the material world that drove and influenced the hearts of men. The student was saying that he had attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affected him. Smiling, the Master wrote "Fart" on the manuscript and had it returned to the student across the river. Expecting compliments and a seal of approval, the student was shocked when he saw what the Master had written. He hit the roof: "How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old Master! He's got a lot of explaining to do!" Full of indignation, the student got into a boat and ferried himself to the other shore as quickly as possible. Once there, he jumped off and charged into the hut where the Master lived. He wanted to find the Master and demand an apology. He found the Master's door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, with the following two lines: The eight winds cannot move me..One fart blows me across the river. 080603 ... wonders do you ever read these teachings that you post? 080603 ... daf you cant just read them. you have to live them. one does what one can..as one can..when the time comes. nothing more could be asked..of anyone. 080603 ... dafremen p.s. in the story..i'm the fart. (old fart to be more precise) 080603 ... unhinged never demanded an apology from you never said i was anywhere near enlightened never said everything i say and do is in line with the path i try to follow this exchange is precisely why i feel uncomfortable talking about my religious beliefs. my mistake; i just find them helpful and think they could be helpful to others. i still am baffled by the fact that you would in one breath espouse a serious and compassionate religious belief, talk about living the path, and then in the next breath turn around and instigate and call names. how are those two things compatible? before this debacle, when was the last time you read me calling anyone an asshole around here? (you are running from the questions by posing more questions daf) 080603 ... unhinged dude, and are you serious about the whole interpretation thing? that's what READING is. come on. why would you write anything if you don't want someone to comprehend it? what's the point of trying to communicate around here then? are_you_serious with that circular masturbatory shit? i am making an attempt to understand here. (and also flex my debating muscles, true) i think most of us could agree, that whatever blather is or isn't we all come here to communicate with each other. which obviously takes some interpretation. the devil's advocate/semantics/ circular arguements are getting old. hopefully, my last word disease will soon be cured by them. 080603 ... daf you'll want to read answers_for_truth, do0d. and whats with the apology thing you mentioned in the first sentence? if an apology is forthcoming..by all means..it's yours. but where did that thought come from? no one has apologized here. 080603 ... unhinged (i am not trying to be esoteric or existential here. and i'm pretty sure i have resignedly accepted your stubborn willfulness to be the only right person in this situation. unfortunately, that has still not deterred me from wanting to get to the bottom of it.) 080603 ... daf ok..first apology..sorry..i forgot to address the "why express" why..to read our own thoughts as channeled from our subconscious, of course. the same reason that word association exercises reveal so much. a sufi once told me that in the course of resolving ourselves..much is spoken by the self..TO the self..during conversations with others. it seems to hold water. during one conversation...a friend had an entire conversation with herself..even though it was in the course of responding. after cutting and pasting just HER words..they were sent to her. she was quite taken aback by what she had told herself. apparently it was very poignant for her and she told me so. that was cool. : ) by reading the responses of others to various situations..an awful lot can be learned about them. this is particularly useful in the literary medium..since emotional content and true personality are often hidden behind words. (heheh ironies do abound don't they?) 080603 ... daf oh...any way to get you to stop insinuating that you're encountering evasiveness? everything has been neatly laid out for you. just takes some reading..and thinking..that's all do0d. truth figured it out..lemon soda already knows..and looks like doar and stork daddy might too. i suppose there's no need to speak for them..they are quite capable..but that was the impression. 080603 ... unhinged before this whole thing started, i already knew i was angry and taking it out on some of the people around me for a reason i still can't quite figure out. stress seems to be the only reason i can see, which is not a valid excuse for me to act meanly. we have fundamental differences. that's all. no use in arguing with someone who fundamentally disagrees with you. i've always been reasonably good at objectively examining my own behavior and being able to admit when i'm wrong. i only get better at those things the longer i stick to my path. 080603 ... unhinged (i guess it was wrong of me to expect straight_forward answers to straight_forward questions) 080603 ... Lemon_Soda Are you big on Shinto, daf? 080604 ... daf Not sure what Shinto is. Enlighten me? 080604 ... Lemon_Soda Forgive me, I meant Bushido. A whole lot of no BS, do your best sort of stuff. Very heavy on personal responsibility and of the perfection of "living". 080604 ... daf that sounds very interesting. I looked up shinto and didn't get it..(except for the reverence for nature part) on to the bushido wiki.. 080604 ... LEMON SODA RESPONDING CHECK 081110 what's it to you? who go blather from