seeking_enlightenment stork daddy is itself egotistical. 050724 ... stork daddy is itself egotistical. 050724 ... epitome_of_incomprehensibility explain why 050724 ... stork daddy that too is egotistical. if you are seeking something, it is because you want it. you desire it if it is your objective. if you want to remove suffering, it is for the satisfaction of yourself, even if the process slowly chips away at yourself. it may be a more nuanced and ultimately productive egotism, but it is still egotism. everything you do seems to be. 050724 ... oldephebe So by your definition, by your careful delineation and nuanced example I'm going to conclude that egotistical doesn't always neccessarily mean some shallow vain gesture at the expense of another. In this sense it can be noble, you've searched yourself and found that self to be lacking, whatever you construct identity out of, it is THIS dynamic that has led you to desire to improve yourself...and uhh.. by the way enlightenment can cast it's searing questing beam into countless contexts and so what kind of enlightenement are you speaking of? Is it the Aristotlean, Nitzchean reasoning that have inspired polished marlbled spires of conquest and commerce? Is it the drug a sacrement and fulcrum to opening aldeus Huxley's doors of perception? Is it the pious ruminations and portrature of 16th century christian mystics such as St. Teresa and St.John the Carmelite Baptist? (Or even the modern day insights of a zen/buddhist inspired Wayne Monbleau) Is it the POWER of neuro-linguisting programming for athletes and politicians alike? I dunno. Just kinda curious is all. ... 050724 ... stork daddy it is all of them. if we measure nobleness of such an endeavor by the effects it has on others then one can make an argument that one form or another is less egotistical than another. but this is only if we take a narrow definition of egotism. egotism would have to mean only either acts or objectives that are not concerned with others and are generated entirely from one's sense of self. this is my point exactly. when we seek enlightenment, it cannot be because others behoove us to. it must be generated from the self. the self generates its own destruction in traditional buddhist enlightenment. and this is my point exactly, the distinction between self and others largely does not exist. all that we have is our representation of the world, and even our representations of others are a part of ourself. therefore, even by giving ourself entirely to another person, we are doing so from our sense of self. from our ego. i refer to ego not in the hairsplitting manner that freud did, but rather in the more broad sense of conscious awareness. whether you measure the nobility of any of these paths by the effects towards others or self...the self is the ultimate nexus of the changes and the desire to change. 050724 ... oldephebe umm... OK I guess. I had to ask huh? ... 050728 ... z i listen 050728 ... akuma aoi i disagree. it is one thing to genuinely SEEK enlightenment, and it is all well and good in and of itself. the egotism is in setting yourself up either through implication or declaration, that you are in fact _more_ enlightened/sane/spiritually healthy than others better to say "I have gained this bit of wisdom" than to say "I am so wise" 050728 ... z yes. i agree. 050728 ... dafremen But be careful HOW you say "I've gained this little bit of wisdom." Because let's face it, the masses will always be able to take a perfectly reasonable intention and perceive it to be something that it is not. 050728 ... z who are the masses? 050728 ... sporadically philosophizing person an imaginary construct? stupid people? a way for sporadically philosophizing people to feel superior to the rest of the world? 050728 ... Thus Have I Read/ Heard ... 050728 ... daf The masses would include said philosophers. Why is it that people have a tendency to A) assume that others are trying to disrespect them and then B) become evasive, haughty and mean as a result of their own preconception? "The masses" would be the general "movement" of the populace as a non-sentient blob of semi-conscious action and reaction...(?) Hopefully that clarifies. So...do you think there will be a lot of people misinterpreting these words or do you think they're all pretty much right here, right now, doing whatever it is they're gunna do in reaction to what they read? 050728 ... oldephebe and amongst those constituting the masses, why don't we just account for the gradations of gray, the not so subtle but yet inevitable biases and prejudices amongst the general masses aligning amongst the constuencies of color, class profession, the whole peopled prism reflecting the "various pools of experience from which we all operate.." "What I'm talking about is Unity here, the tearing down the walls between us.." The newly installed Romulan Praeter wh bears a striking resemblance to Captain Jean Luc Picard at thier first meeting from the Star Trek Next Gen Movie "Nemisis" ... 050728 ... oldephebe I mean I'm just saying how do you define and address what lurks within the lurid imaginations of even our fervent and fluent tongued advesary/interlocutor. What exactly are we up against? What glacial and seemingly insourmountable repositories of racial, class, gender based animus are we trying to overcome? There always seems to be an utopian edge to my contributions to blathes of this type. But I've come to realize that earnestnestness does not translate to into an ability of quickly and quixotically and somewhat theatrically under the burnig circle of light w/o the infrastructure of logical disputation and sober analysis. Some (whoever they may be) may concluded that anyone our arguments is to confining a vessel to strap my argument to. How does one argue against the shriveled ghost of orthodoxy, and accepted wisdom and plausible and even titillating expectorations about true civic equanimity and not the myth that lies jaded and cracked on the floor of congress. ... 050728 ... oE strapping our arguments w/in the carraige of an argument that is too confining a canoe for strapping our respective varied and to each player valid arguments. ... 050728 ... stork daddy see this is exactly the thing i mean. if you want to be enlightened, it is something that only can mean something to yourself. so it is egotistical in a way, but at the same time is undemanding of others. of course sometimes you won't humor people's demands, which may or may not be the same thing. however, you ultimately become more forgiving of others. but you can't say it doesn't come from your sense of self. in the end, it is about you deciding what you shall do. whether you semantacize your way around 'seeking' doesn't make a different. you are actively making your life different. i think the entire concept ego is a misconception. that doesn't mean i don't believe that some people are more at peace than others. 050728 ... stork daddy okay, slightly innebriated when i wrote this. which just goes to show, i'm not at where i'd like to be. 050728 ... Lemon_Soda Ultimately simplistic, yet utterly complicated. Enlightenment was never anything any of us could have shared or found through someone else. Egotistical? I'm not so sure, but maybe thats because this word has a distinct undertone of negativity for me, which is a feeling I don't associate with with the word enlightenment. That being the problem, ofcourse. Everyone has their own definition of every word out there, so how could we ever really have a meeting of the minds when we're talking with our mouths? When I say dog, what do you think of? A collie? A Spaniel? A bloodhound? A terrier? Its different for everyone. Even the people thinking of the same breed arn't likely thinking of the same individual dog, and even if they are, they can't concievably be thinking of the same angle or experience concerning said animal. As an "on blather" example, oldephebe uses words I've never heard of before. How can I truly understand what he's saying all the time? Suppose I look those words up. Which definition is he using? Is he using any of them? What do these new words mean to me having only seen them here and in a dictionary? Wouldn't they be far more impactful to someone, like oldephebe, who has experienced them in his daily? We can't really communicate nomatter howmuch we like to think otherwise. Ideas and concepts ofcourse, but we can't connect! Infact, we're all looking for that big "why" or we're content not to. People looking are seeking enlightenment. More then they know or understand, as it were. One of the flaws of our society is we're educating people against their wishes. Forcing the "seeking", part if you will. Tell me if any of that made sense, since I can only get the idea across, not the whole of it. 050729 ... polysyllabic poseur made sense to me LS 050729 ... z en (to bring) light (learning, spiritual awareness, balance) enment (transformation, growth) is how i parse this word. i have always felt that it (as a concept) trades on the idea of a higher set of truths, accessible to those who are able or are invited to partake of an ongoing conversation. the truth comes from a source outside them, and can be recognized as the truth, or the way or the law. i am not now, nor have i ever been the joining kind. i am not given truths, i make them for myself. i am the truth. my light (to abuse a metaphor) comes from within. others can see it, sometimes, but cannot really know it. art, in all of it's forms, is an attempt to share my truths to others, not in order to convince, but simply as a sharing. i do not seek enlightenment or to enlighten. 050729 ... daf What a hopeful bunch has assembled here. (Said in only the most observant and non-patronizing of tones) Honestly, between Phebe's hinted at (and some times struck like a hammer blow to the forehead) longings for that greater place, that truer purpose for this race than the emptiness that comes of promoting and engorging our most animalistic traits. A slight peek behind the well-maintained armor of the Stork Daddy as well. That was inspirational in and of itself. The word enlightened...what DOES it mean? Could it mean to bring light? Could it mean to remove weight? Is it doing both? Is this the root of the use of the word light in reference to things that have less mass per volume? Could it be because there is an inherent definition for light that encompasses both of our current definitions? Perhaps what light means is the opposite of matter. The opposite of those material things that are heavy. In all of the arcane and occult arts, negative and positive, masculine and feminine, light and dark, matter and energy are all descriptions of the same concepts (as many of you are no doubt already aware.) There is an implied meaning that matter is the opposite of light in many respects. It consumes, takes in, is associated with darkness and heaviness. So what if light means just this: The opposite of material. And what if enlighten means to remove or reduce the material? What if that's what the root idea behind all "paths to enlightenment" are? To reduce the strength of the material self so that the spiritual self can show through? It's a thought anyhow. Thanks for your wonderful words. Coming to this blathe has enlightened me in many ways. 050729 ... epitome_of_incomprehensibility Okay, so seeking enlightenment may be egotistical, or at least partly so. Does this really matter? Hardly anything we do is out of pure, genuine unselfishness anyway. I just lost ten pounds and discovered my toenails glow in the dark. I believe I've just attained Nirvana, albeit selfishly. 050729 ... epitome_of_incomprehensibility is being silly Why Nirvana? I don't listen to that kind of music anyway. 050729 ... anne-girl but it can be partially unselfish cause if I find enlightenment, I can make other people happy more easily (depressed people help nobody) which in turn makes me happier, making it partially selfish... i guess you can't win 050729 ... hsg but u do win bc you r a people too 070211 ... They call me Truth We are all one. If you look at it that way the egotism disappears. When I think of enlightenment I think of how my enlightenment will help others, how it will make me better equipt to offer love and wisdom. That is not at all selfish or selfless because to love someone as you love yourself, you must first love yourself. Why would you leave yourself out of that love, out of the joy of being great and being true and being worthy of all the things you would offer to another. You are connected to everyone and everything but the only way to reach that place where you are capable of greatlove is in the process of the enlightenment of self. 070211 ... They call me Truth We are all one. If you look at it that way the egotism disappears. You cannot do something for another witout affecting yourself. When I think of enlightenment I think of how my enlightenment will help others, how it will make me better equipt to offer love and wisdom. That is not at all selfish or selfless because to love someone as you love yourself, you must first love yourself. Why would you leave yourself out of that love, out of the joy of being great and being true and being worthy of all the things you would offer to another. You are connected to everyone and everything but the only way to reach that place where you are capable of greatlove is in the process of the enlightenment of self. 070211 ... They call me Truth Wow, i love it when i get preachy. i was standing on my porch tonight, staring up at the stars experiencing the vastness of space and i got so excited, thinking of what is out there, realizing that there is so much more than the house that i live in, resting on the island its on, planted within the ocean covering this earth. so much more out there, lighting up the sky constantly reminding us that we have only scratched the surface. i stood there neck bent head glaring up into the heavens realizing how small i was and that at my current position i couldnt even touch the roof of my house without the assistance of a chair. looking at this i saw this reminder as a reminder of life, restricting my thoughts significantly to thoughts of my life and the trivisl things i allow to occupy my days and realizing that i have found contentment in that and i have not tried to leave my comforts or challenge myself in any significant way. what else can we do, than to focus on the trivial when there seems to be no depth for nourishment. what else can we do but walk the streets that we have walked if there doesn't seem like there is any means of exploring others. perpetualness from a life of repetitiveness breathing through the lungs of the trivial providing little nourishment for the body. 070625 ... kuffsleeve it's like looking under every carpet, in every cupboard then to discover, it is a peace of fluff on your jumper. "oh" 070626 ... Lemon_Soda Were I too lay it down as simply as I could... Pursuing enlightenment(taken here as positive, exponetial physical, spiritual, and mental growth) is the continued process of attempting to accept the nigh infinite responsibility that comes with being human. Consider what we, as a race, have accomplished in our relatively(universally) small time here on this earth. Placed in our very hands is the capability to attain anything our minds are put too. Everyone knows, deep down inside of themselves, what their true potential is. SOme are not ready to recognize it, but it is there. With the ability to fathom and then inflict it upon the world a certain level of divinity must be recognized. We each of us are God(esses)s in the making, shying away from our own power. Why? I'm sure its different for everyone. Perhaps a childhood trauma, perhaps cowardice, perhaps physical debilitation. The reasons one can give oneself are limitless(another indication of divinity) and if so empowered by their creator, insurmountable. IT falls to a state(one I have fallen short of to this day) of excepting ultimate responsibility for your own potential. Excepting this resposibility would mean thinking about everything you do, all the time. Exceptig that you are incharge of where you are and what you are doing. Realizing that you are part of everyone and everyone is a part of you, making you responsible for their well being as well as your own. Understanding that it is your duty to change the world. Finally, holding true to the most basic(but most ignored) truth that people only ever do what they feel they must, so condemning anyone for anything is flawed thinking. Its a tall order and it makes perfect sense that a person would say "But I don't WANT to think all the time. I don't WANT that responsibility. I'm here now, surviving, and thats good enough for me. Why should I go against what my body is telling me to do? That way I don't have to think and I can blame any uncomfort on an outside source. Why should I change my situation when I might fail trying?" There will always be a reason not too. But how many of you can say that you live up to your potential? Or are even trying to live up to your potential? How many of you wonder, daily, "is this really me? Is this all I am? Can't I do better?" bah...I'm ranting... 070626 ... jane isolated_dissonance_perpetuates_enlightenment 070626 ... unhinged enlightenment is the banishment of egotism; there is something beyond the ego that leads us to this goal within the buddhist definition of these terms. it is our ego in the broad definition, not the freudian, that causes our suffering. it is the realization of the complete interconnectedness of all things, beginning with our own perception, that propels us down the path to true and complete enlightenment. it is the universal, the absolute, rather than the relative, that frees us. our ego keeps us trapped in the relative, tricking us into thinking that possessions and feelings are happiness. the ego has many tricks to perpetuate itself, especially keeping us fixated on the relative. capitalism and materialism are direct products of a deceiving ego. they are thick and deep roots of suffering. i would think most all of us were taught to buy into these tricky constructs of the ego. that the bigger our house is the happier we will be. no one race or gender or nationality has the patent on suffering. i live in a very racist segregated town. the subject of racism has become a bitter pill for me. i have suffered in my life. there are many black people in this town that would not take the time to hear my story because they believe that white people do not suffer. i admit that their suffering is probably much more basic than mine has ever been; that i was blessed to have my basic needs met at all times. but i have suffered. just like we all suffer. to place your suffering on a higher pedestal than mine is disrespectful and deluded . suffering is a common human theme regardless of race, class, education. some of us must suffer through the pain of hunger and disease and poverty. some of us must suffer through the pain of addiction. some of us must suffer through our own arrogance and materialism. WE ALL SUFFER. lay down your guns. lay down your ignorance. lay down your separatism and your racism and your violence. lay down your superiority. lay down your ego. give it all away. 070626 ... Lemon_Soda I wonder how many of us are actually "enlightened". To bad Jesus or Buddha isn't around to blathe... wants to hear from the enlightened. 070627 ... jane if_jesus_were_to_visit_this_website 070627 ... mr song enlightened_all_the_way! i need not enlightenment, i sail my own ships. i'm enlightened by nature. 070627 ... mr song The divine mother earth shall not forsaken me! 070627 ... z see: messianic_complexes 081120 ... unhinged mahamudra is moving me closer 140915 what's it to you? who go blather from