isaiah_66_7_8 Twitch Isaiah 66 7 "Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. 8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. The prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years. During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day. Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. I had fomrerly come to the conclusion that the Bible just another book for some other religion, but how can I refute this? 070201 ... pete Israel still does not control all of what it claims to be Israel, or what the two kingdoms where in the Hebrew Bible. Also the Zionist movement took over 50 years to get what it wanted, and that came (and continues to come) at a steep price. 070201 ... pete Speaking political truths (declarations are made in a day, often followed by violence) is not prophecy. 070201 ... Poo Opolis i think it was actually talking about me taking a dump. "labor pains" fuck yeah, i need to eat more fiber. "born in a day" dude, it felt like it, but really it was about 20 minutes of just plain of grunting. i created a freakin nation of bacteria, i reckon. the sights the sounds and yeah the smells. whew. helluva town, i tell ya. pooville. seriously though, what meth were you on that took you from rational being to person who thinks bible has predicitve powers. 070201 ... Twitch Still...to predict that israel would be made a nation in just one day, it's just incredible. Can that really be a coincidence? and the fact that there were no wars in it's becoming a nation and many many wars after. 070201 ... pete Yes it can be. And I'm sure Isaiah was referring to something far more relevant, such as the lifting of the seige of Jerusalem, than something that would happen thousands of years later. Remember that an Israelite/Jewish state came to exist from ruin twice after Isaiah wrote (and it was in existance while he was writing, though the Northern Kingdom was in the process of destruction at the hands of the Assyrians at that point IIRC)... Remember the kingdoms after the Babylonian Exile (during which the Bible was redacted for the first time), and the kingdom of the Maccabees. Also remember the failed attempts at creating an Israelite/Jewist state during the Jewish War of 70CE and the Bar Kachoba Rebellion of c. 135CE. Some one is trying to make truths out of nothingness, but nothing can come from nothing as it is no thing. Besides I searched this passage on line (I didn't feel like hauling out ye olde study bible), and noticed a website that says more or less the same as you... These people have agendas, we all have agendas, but watch out for those who will take something unrelated but similar or convenient sounding and make the proof fit the theory, not the other way around. Velikovsky did so, and so did those who informed you of this supposive correlation and prophecy. No harsh feelings, you asked for how you could refute it. 070202 ... pete To say that there was no war in Israel becoming a nation denies the suffering of thousands, perhaps millions, of people who previously lived on the territory that is now Israel, and their descendants living in what could be termed a Diaspora in Lebanon, Jordan, and the Occupied Territories/Palestine (not to mention a plethora of other states around the world) to this day. It is an injustice to say that there was no war in founding Israel prior to its coming about, and it is a rewriting of history to ignore inconvenient facts. All states have bloody hands, that is something we should never forget, even though states make life more convenient in many ways. Cheers again. 070202 ... Twitch Thank you for making an excellent argument. I need all the help I can in weighing out all this stuff. I still don't see how failed wars faught before negate the prophecy. It's not that there were no wars in Israel prior to this event. That is certainly justified. It's just that Israel's independence was not caused by any of them. The Jews did not have to fight a war for their independence on this day, (WW2 helped trigger the event but it was not fought for it.) Israel gained independence without fighting a war. (Though it has been fighting to keep it - thus the labor pains were after its birth) -That's what I can't get over... Oh and I confess, I totally copied and pasted just about everything I wrote before. I was more concerned with finding other explanations for these events than I was with being original. 070202 ... pete The post-Exilic kingdom (founded after Cyrus allowed the Israelites to return to the Levant, see Ezra for the Biblical account) and the kingdom of the Maccabees (founded by Judas Maccabeus and further established by his brothers.. I think the traditional accounts of this story are in the four books of Maccabees, two of which, IIRC, are Apocryphal) were both Israelite/Jewish states prior to Israel and after Isaiah's time. Basically you can say that Isaiah prophesised modern Israel, but then you'd have to ignore the post-Exilic Kingdom (I should find a better name for it), and that of the Maccabees. You'd also have to ignore the internal warfare that was going on in Palestine prior to Israel's declaration of independence to say that there were no birth pains until after the birth. The prophecy doesn't fit the event unless you restructure the evidence selectively so that all opposing accounts are ignored. That's the problem with people who try to use the Prophets to "predict" or "foreshadow" events that happened in recent memory. 070202 ... jane i think the poop guy/gal is right 070202 ... pete the poopsie one is more right than those twist has cited jane, i agree. 070202 ... somebody [yes pete has drank a lot if that is what you were thinking] 070202 ... Twitch Though I'll admit I'm not familiar with it at all, I'm pretty sure that Maccabees is not in the original biblical canon. And I'm not saying that there was no internal warfare going on at the time, just that it's independence was not caused by it. The warfare going on was a seperate issue, and did not lead to Israel's birth as a nation. It was a seperate event altogether, outside of the warfare. 070202 ... Twitch it's just difficult...I really don't like the idea of using my life to serve someone else, but at the same time I'd hate to not honestly give something a chance that could have a profound impact on my life and regret it later. 070203 ... Twitch it's just difficult...I really don't like the idea of using my life to serve someone else, but at the same time I'd hate to not honestly give something a chance that could have a profound impact on my life and regret it later. 070203 ... megan check out Job 38 quite humbling if you ask me people will argue forever, but it is those that are willing to dig for truth (with an open mind) that find it. keep digging twitch 070203 ... Twitch I just want to understand pete's point better so I can make a real decision. 070203 ... high viscosity theodor herzl (1860-1940) wrote “the jewish state” (1896) as a response to strong anti-semitic sentiments across europe. “the jewish state” provided the ideological basis for political zionism. herzl thesis was that jews constituted a nation but lacked a political state within which they could freely express their national culture. he was motivated more by the pragmatic considerations of nationhood than by the religious associations of the old testament and he did not specify palestine as the location of the future jewish state. during the first world war, there was a strong belief held by key government officials that jewish groups in the u.s and russia had the capacity to influence their respective governments’ attitudes towards the war. officials within the british government argued that a british gesture of ‘goodwill’ toward zionist aspirations might persuade influential jews within the revolutionary movement to attempt to keep russia in the war., which was going through social revolution at the time. and thus: “His majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish peoples, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by the Jews in any other country.” -the balfour declaration (nov.2.1917) please think critically. 070203 ... Twitch but I don't see how that negates anything either...It just sets up everything for the prophecies fulfillment. 070204 ... high viscosity sorry that you're missing the entire point here. what you need to consider is that the state of israel was not born in one day as your prophecy states but that rather it was a systematic delivery of political ends (over the course of many years) and not religious at all - although religious fanatics will disagree. i beg you to be careful when you consult religious books and more careful even when you base your opinions and ideas on them. these are often vague in their descriptions of events therefore lending themselves to multiple, different interpretations of the same thing. if you don't agree please take the text you cited at the beginning of this blathe as an example: why couldn’t the text refer to the birth of chirst by the virgin mary? as a christian one might argue that mary felt no pain as she delivered christ, the son of god, and that her 'pains' came as a result of watching her son die at the cross (the time when the 'pains come'). would you logically debunk the possibility that the text does not refer to the birth of christianity instead? perhaps the 'nation' is how the new christians are referred to by this particular author... is very easy to twist religious gibberish to mean whatever you want, it makes easier to convince people that your religion is the one and only. 070205 ... Poo Opolis with dafremen (the king of turning religious gibberish into prophecy and fact) back on the scene there's still hope for twitch. 070205 ... bird as i was something of a religious scholar before i became a cynic and reprobate, i am inclined to interpret biblical prophecy with the same jaundiced eye i turn towards Nostradamus it seems purposely written so as to be open to interpretation, thus making it easier for an inclined believer to take from it what they will (or what they wish) 070205 ... z i'm with the avian. 070205 ... Twitch "Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." Israel is often referred to as Zion. There was definately a buildup for Israel's independence. But it's independence was announced and gained in a day. I would think that the process would usually take a whole lot longer and that the anouncement would only signify the begining. I know a lot of prophecies can be incredibly vague...but this seems remarbly clean cut. Israel (Zion) will be brought forth in a day along with her inhabitants. 070206 ... high viscosity yeah sure zion is a reference to israel but the context is still vague. as far as i know most nations have declared their independence in one day, thus we celebrate that day as "independence day". dude, whatever you believe i respect, its not like that, is just that like you said at the start of the post "how can i refute it?" i guess i've always had a problem with prophecies and things of that sort, somehow i think is silly of people to try to guess the future when all we have is today. good luck. 070207 ... Twitch Thanks man...I didn't even think about independence day, but that makes a lot of sense. And thank you for respecting whatever I believe (though I'm not really sure myself.) A lot of the recent events in the world just got me thinking. It really does seem like the world is headed towards the apocolypse. I'm sure I'll have something to make of all this later on, but right now I need to do some serious pondering. 070207 ... Twitch but there was no war...I just can't escape it. And it's not as though I want to believe this...If anything I desperately don't want to. But for a country to gain independence in one day, exactly one day I believe, without fighting a war...and then fighting so many wars after - it just seems like it couldn't be a coincidence. 070215 ... bird my biggest problem with the notion of the apocalypse is that many of it's most ardent believers have wormed their way into positions of power with the seeming intention of forcibly inducing said event so that they can be "raptured away" besides, since the dawn of what can truly be called "civilazation" when has some sector of mankind NOT been (in an ironic counterpoint to the notion of civility) at war or on it's precipice? whenever i hear some would-be herald of the end talking about the prophetic passage of "wars and rumours of war" i say "hey, read a history book...that stuff's ALWAYS happening" 070216 ... z see: http://www.metahistory.org/ArmageddonPolitics.php 070216 what's it to you? who go blather from