dannyhs_chopping_block daf Thought to move this here since the reload time is getting long. After reading your blathe under perception_is_not_reality something popped out that seemed to be worth mentioning: Your impression of the piece was: "The piece you just posted was well written but I feel all you are saying is that it's good to believe in things. But we can't just believe in everything." That's what you said, but nothing could be farther from the truth. I'd like to think this doesn't reflect on your ability to distinguish between what is real and what is not. It appears obvious that SOME distortion is going on between perception and interpretation as you'll see when you read these quotes from the same piece you were talking about. If you read the piece again carefully, you'll realize that you didn't really read it the first time. from perception_is_not_reality: "There IS Truth, and to be honest, PERCEPTION and BELIEF have probably LIED to us more often than they have told us the Truth." "Remember..that disbelief from one perspective, is also BELIEF from another perspective. Both are deceptive. You cannot know Truth through belief. Belief is a roadblock more often than not and perception is it's accomplice. Beliefs are hard things to alter once they've set up camp. They harden into a shape and then anything which lies outside of that basic mold becomes irrational to our mind. We doubt things which don't fit our beliefs." "Don't think for a second that BELIEF and PERCEPTION have stopped lying to you, or the rest of the human race, simply because you are more "open-minded" than most. Belief and perception are the epitomy of DECEPTION.. particularly when they choose to disregard the Truth, in favor of something that the mind finds more easily digested. Usually something that is more in line with what the mind already believes to be true." Anyhow Dan, again, there aren't any digs here. Just pointing out what IS, hoping you'll see that it's not what APPEARED to be. There's a lot of that out there Dan. Just waiting to be found. 050727 ... andru235 so when you encounter the truth, you'll make a point not to believe it one bit, right? 'cuz if you believe it, then "you can't know truth...", ye sayeth... and if you can't trust the truth, one can only turn to belief. 050728 ... DannyH Okay, well our use of the word belief has got kind of fluid and I'm not sure we're saying the same thing when we say it but I take your point. Maybe faith would be a better word to characterise what I took from your piece. You see I think things get a little confused because you're putting forward a relativist philosophy on the one hand and a declaration of the existence of absolute truth, testified by your own experience on the other. Now I don't think these things are necessarily contradictory it just get's a bit tangly working out which perspective on reality we're looking at things from. You EXPERIENCE absolute truth. I PERCEIVE relativism. So essentially what I refer to, from my relativistic standpoint as a belief, you, from your absolutist standpoint can call knowledge. I can't think of any way to bridge that gap other than subsuming myself to your absolutes, which presumably I have to find hidden in my heart rather than accepting them directly from you. 050728 ... DannyH Just one other point. You often refer to egotism as being the enemy of true understanding but don't you find it egotistical to take the view that your version of the truth is THE one universal truth. 050728 ... . that's the one consistent thread through all of daffy's character changes: arrogance/ego. 050728 ... daf Oh no doubt about it anonymous punctuation mark. This has been an uphill battle for a person whose ego is enormous. As you'll see in how_andru235_was_ten_years_ago the size of my ego is no big secret to anyone. The question is, who wins? The ego? Or that part that would temper it? For most of us, it seems, some days are better than others. That's probably all of the time that an anonymous sh*traker deserves so let's leave that at that. No Danny. No more egotistical than the majority stance..claiming the exact same thing..to know the truth. Knowledge based on information aquired through the material senses is inherently flawed. Particularly when processed through a material brain. It's no wonder the whole quest for knowledge has taken on a "materialistic flavor." The human race is on a sabbatical touring through the recesses of its own imagination while trying to put reality on hold. Let's see..what are the great human scientific quests? 1. To eradicate death, affording us the luxury of an eternity in this place while our scientists are trying like crazy: 2. To get us the hell out of here. Of course only the elite rich would ever get to do it..but hey, great, more room for us because they'll have learned by then how to 3. Feed the masses. Which is necessary to keep us alive so that we can keep producing goods and consuming them...don't you think? Somehow, the lunacy of this entire notion has either escaped you or CRUSHED you and now you're just tetched in the head by this bullsh*t enough to be standing on Alice's side of the fence calling anyone who stands up against such an absurd notion, crazy? It's the Truth. What do you want from me? Don't you think it's a bit arrogant for you to say that it isn't? What do you know about it? There...whew! Now that we're done letting the burro out for a romp, it seems appropriate to say that none of us is to blame for our conditioned perspective or our tendency to judge, our tendency to animalistic, domineering behaviors (physical, intellectual or otherwise)..etc. What we are to blame for is allowing people to tell us that its ok to let it do what it wants to. We're also to blame for letting the "consensual community" teach us that you need PROOF in order to find something to be true. Sometimes you don't need PROOF to follow up a lead. Sometimes you can just feel that there's something there. Then you go on the assumption that its TRUE until it proves itself FALSE. That is the ONLY genuine test for Truth. Is it false? You will rarely, if ever prove something to be absolutely true. This is a PROBLEM with consensual reality. It IMPOSES it's truths with or against the will of its pupils, Galileo's bane, Copernicus' name, Einstein's childhood shame. It's all the same in the end. A group of brutes who DON'T temper their egos, their animalistic urges. Those who lust after power, knowledge, money, things and all to one end...security. They're afraid. And what's so sad is that it doesn't have to be that way because none of the "scary" stuff is real anyhow. It's all an invention of the human mind...including war. Including terrorism, theft, murder, rape, assault..etc. It's all caused by a bunch of humans who do NOT control those animal urges and become predators and prey. Men..who were the physical warriors are being taught to be the physical predators. Women..who were the emotional warriors are being taught to become the emotional predators. The beast is alive and well in us all while the media stirs it on, brings it heaving and panting to the front of our minds so that we desire. So that we want. So that we become the very thing that we claim we are not..brute animals. And there you stand Danny. Berating. Shaking your head. Pitying. Reality my friend? Want consensual reality? Fine. But the five senses can only detect portions of the Truth. The other senses are there, but they need to be developed. That's why you look into it. It's not about the destination. It's about the journey...and what it does to those who travel it with a touch of faith in the world...and in themselves and their ability to distinguish between what is real and what is not REGARDLESS of how far that reality may differ from our beliefs. Which brings us to the curiouser and curiouser andru235. First one person reads and sees that what the piece says is that you should believe in everything. Then another reads it and see that what it says is that you shouldn't believe in anything. The truth, as usual, is somewhere in between the two. It doesn't help to deal in absolutes except for maybe one. In the piece it was said that Truth would be revealed, and it was. That doesn't mean that everything is absolutely known for a fact to be true. There is only one absolute Truth. The rest is belief. Now belief is a virtual truth. It should be treated like a lilypad upon which one hops for as long as it remains firm standing ground, but which is as easily abandoned as though it were nonthing more than the transient notion in one's developing understanding that it is. That is what the piece says. We should stop trusting our beliefs ABSOLUTELY. Stick with them for as long as they are useful without being detrimental to our search for knowledge. We don't do that. History is replete with examples of the general public, or the scientific community clinging to belief over truth. And brutalizing people in the process who we later found out...were probably right. There is only one Truth that I know. The rest I'll believe until the facts prove it foolish to continue to do so, then the current beliefs will be replaced with the modified or perhaps even the completely new ones. Off to read around here. Never used to do enough of that before. Thanks for your time. 050728 ... andru235 i, my ego and all, agree with you daf, about the utter insanity of the 1.2.3. plan in your previous blathe here. and i suspect that at a certain level, both of our trans-blathatory-themes (if you will) revolve around trying to show routes around the 1.2.3. madness... 050729 ... DannyH So we should leave people where they are to starve and die? In the name of enlightenment? 050729 ... daf Should we assume that they're going to starve? Who gets to play the role of God this century? The universe doesn't need any heroes...just patient pupils. 050729 what's it to you? who go blather from