i_don't_care_about_the_pope pSyche really. I don't. I wish the media would shut up about him. 050403 ... oldephebe why not? 050404 ... . he meant so much to so many and so little to so many others. 050405 ... unhinged you should cause he cared about you i gave up my catholic roots a long time ago, but pope john paul ii was a pious and devout man that worked for the real good and not just The Church. it seems ominous to me for the world to lose such an awesome human being. he was a religious leader to the world, not just catholics of the world. did you know the pope was conversationally fluent in 28 languages?! pope john paul ii spread the message of true christian love and i know i for one am sad at his passing. i just kinda felt bad for the guy having to die publicly like that. 050405 ... oE yeah. 050405 ... trox neither do i i think he was just a man who loved power 050405 ... u24 i care as much about the pope as other people of his merit. they don't get tv coverage, though. 050405 ... falling_alone i only knew him as a man whose sickness worsed every year, i envy those who saw him act as the vibrant man he once was. 050405 ... oldephebe I heard a FOX coresspondant who has covered the pope for most of his professional life share what the Pope shared with him to explain why he allowed the world to see his suffering, why he (the pope)never covered his wounds, his infirmities, his suffering in the royal robes of the pontif or some fleshly notion of unseemliness or decorum. ... This reporter said that the Pope believed that his suffering brought him closer to God that it created in him a heart attitude of total dependance, that by identifying with Christ and His suffering and by not hiding it from his followers it allowed him (the pope) to be lifted out of the realm of what was wrong with his body, instead of spending his time writhing in his royal bed or attended to by the well meaning ministrations of his attendants or retreating to the so called respite and decorum and dignity of His Office to like Christ and the saints allow his life his suffering his trail to become an object lesson for others. When I look at the popes last years this way I no longer feel sad or agrieved for his suffering, I feel inspired, I feel a renewed respect for him, his life becomes a kind of conduit of blessing in that I or any of us like the pope can simply choose to allow our suffering to shape in us an attitude of dependancy, one that allows us to truly inhabit in a sense a truly spiritual communion, union with Christ and His sufferings and that closeness, that union becomes a salve even as the body and the soul writhes in pain. That hope, that rapture that comes from touching the very essence of God's Glory, to be identified with His sufferings t understand His humility and devotion and how the Fathers love allowed Him to endure imparts to us a semblance of that experience. The Pope was a man first and a pope second. "God is going to carry me through this and I feel good about it." -Wayne Monbleau Identity Affirmations Volume 2 ... 050405 ... birdmad Just as long as the next Pope isn't Joseph "The Inquisitor" Ratzinger. That's all i've got to say 050405 ... . The pope was, and always will be, the head of a corrupt and elitist power group (possibly filled with many well-meaning individuals). For all his good work and caring attitude towards millions of people he has also caused misery for millions of others with his arch conservative views and edicts. The idea that he cared for me, in what can only be an abstract way, has lttle meaning. No more (or less) than that I have a deep feeling of care and concern for the world and all its inhabitants. So, whatever the merits of the man, no I don't care about the pope. 050406 ... dafremen The point made directly above was absolutely valid and sensible until it's conclusion. To paraphrase: "The pope was a member of a group which I find distateful, therefore I choose to engage in the distateful behavior of announcing my disregard for another human life." Yes, the Holy See is, under cover of darkness, one of the most powerful groups in the world, engaging in as much propaganda, creating as many puppet rulers as any nation in history. However, of the many that have sat at its helm, perhaps only Pope Gregory the Great was more influential than he..perhaps not. In any event, JPII more than any pope before him, demonstrated BY EXAMPLE, how a good catholic should exhibit Christian love and selflessness. Do I believe that Pope John Paul II was a saint? No. (But they'll probably try to make him one 100 years down the road.) It almost goes without saying that he was a consummate politician, and in that regard, and in those situations, was no doubt to be approached with the same suspicion as one would reserve for others of the political ilk. Still, on the human front, he was a typical Libran: constantly thinking of the needs of others and factoring them into whatever decisions were made. He was careful, and considerate, diplomatic and kind, particularly to the underdogs, the aged and the weak. You don't have to care about the pope. I don't think anyone would argue with that fact, but neither is it required that you publicly announce your disregard for him, particularly now that the man is dead. Doing so is more of a reflection of your poor taste, than on what was wrong with the pope and the organization which he headed. 050406 ... oldephebe That is not an entirely unfair statement. Is it a fair attribution of the character of a man that faced centuries of church law? Can one man truly thwart the collective institutionalized chauvanism of the entire council of cardinals, can he bring to a grinding halt the embedded buerocracies and infrastructure and hubris and patriarchical culture that have wielded power for 20 centuries, when these individuals hold church law or ecclesiastical law to be just as sacred and inviolable as the word of God? In fact, an argument could be made that some Vatican officials hold church law above the theological dictates and proscriptions of the Bible. How can one man scour the verdigris dome of the catholic meta church? I mean, I'm not a catholic and I don't know much about church law or even some of the rituals and unique theological planks that distinguish catholicism from protestantism - I mean except for the obvious ones. ... 050406 ... oldephebe Oh okay I was responding to dot or . not dafremen - I hadn't realized he posted to this page. Now I will read what Daf had to say. 050406 ... . I plead guilty of lazy, careless and confused expression of thought (not unusual from me on here). My lack of care is about the pope as in his papacy and that is how I should have finished. My care about the last pope in person is no more or less than my care for all humans who are not within my sphere of immediate personal contact; somewhat abstract and distant but not uncaring of personal plight or pain and suffeing. That aside, if I (or anyone else) so wishes, we have every right to express a disregard for globally and publicly projected figures, even if only to serve as a counter balance to the mawkish public and media eulogising that surrounds such figures on their deaths. (So by all means feel free to emulate me and announce your judgment of me publicly!). From my perspective the last pope was another talented but flawed person who reached the height of his vocation through a mixture of talent for the job and propicious cicumstance. He had many qualities which are rightly mentioned above and are the focus of current respectful eulogy. I just happen to think that he did as much harm as he did good, but had great PR. I didn't and still don't care about him in his role as pope. As for the centuries of institutionalised Roman Catholic law and practice mentioned by oldphebe, I agree that this is a heavy weight for any one man to push against, even a pope. I didn't see much evidence of the pope making any effort to do any pushing. If anything, as a deeply and radically reactionary RC, he seemed determined to entrench and deepen the conservatism of his church and strengthen its iron grip of control over its faithful. But then, I'm not a Roman Catholic nor indeed a Christian and have a deep distrust of institutionalised, controlling religion of all hues and so I freely declare my bias. 050407 ... dafremen Fair enuff. 050407 ... milo church = biggest corporation http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/pope-a06.shtml . 050407 ... oldephebe Your argument is not entirely without validity. ... 050407 ... caresscoffee all i have to say is fuck the pope! 050408 ... Rainbow Is Gay It's better than The royal wedding. 050409 what's it to you? who go blather from