there_is_no_justice j_blue there isnt, not really its a man made ideal, with no basis in reality its as real as good and bad, heaven and hell, etc cute ideas, but unexecutable 001221 ... startfires today i read in the newspaper that a fetus, when the victim of a violent crime, has the same rights as the mother who is carrying him/her. legally. they have just decided this. it said this decision was opposed by planned parenthood. do you realize what that means? the goverment of the united states has recognized the unborn child in the womb as a human with certain unalienable rights, and soon to be among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. how does that make you feel, exactly? it seems to make sense. i mean, if some guy came up and punched a pregnant lady in the gut and killed her baby, he should get in trouble for that, right? i mean, that's a fucked up thing to do. it's just really messed up the way they worded it, "the fetus" will have the same rights as the mother. planned parenthood has reason to be worried. with unborn children gaining rights like these, how far are we from the fetus having the same rights as the mother when it comes down to her decision over his life or death? i just can not decide how i feel about this. it is something i have thought about since i was 8 years old and my mom took me to a pro-life protest in k.c. i am so against taking rights away from women. rights away from anybody. people should be trusted to make their own decisions, pay the consequenses for their actions without the interference of the law. i feel that about everything. but that is my utopia and this is the real world. is the right to kill an unborn child really a right? maybe. it is not up to the goverment. it's up to you. 010430 ... nocturnal I'm all about the freedom myself. so, obviously, I'm pro-choice. to me that doesn't mean I'm all for killing babies, it means I'm all for having all possible options open. and if the fetus has all the same rights as the mother, that must include to own property. damn, when I was a fetus I was stuck in that hot, dark, gooey place. if I was a fetus now I'd go out and get me a resort to stay in for 9 months. but in all seriousness, when I read about that decision, I couldn't believe it could possibly be true. it's just not right. 010430 ... unhinged this is the reflection of a conservative christian republican government. no woman should have the right to choose whether or not to carry a baby because god has willed her to carry it. how, just how exactly does a fetus have rights? i guess i have always viewed this scientificly. i'm not saying abortion is not the ending of a life. it is killing. but, how can a FETUS be able to excercise it's rights for christ's sake? they have nothing but the MOST primitive of thoughts, they can't speak, they can't breathe without the aid of their mother. maybe i view life in a cruel and callous way, but i do not see the definition of human life in a fetus. life yes and yes abortion is the ending of life but i do not see the defining characteristics other than the physical ones that make them human. rights....christ. i project by the next election, abortion will be well on it's way to becoming illegal in this wonderful religiously unbiased political system we are supposed to live in. abortion is not a matter of politics, it is a matter of ethics. you goddamn republicans leave me alone already. small government my ass. 010430 ... kx21 Law vs Morality is as to Politics vs Justice... 010501 ... Dafremen I think the whole debate has overlooked something even MORE fundamentally wrong with our system and the way it "views" human life. If I father a child and I don't want to have a child, why do I have 0% of the right to decide but 50% of the responsibility to support? If I father a child and my partner doesn't want it and decides to abort, why does she have 100% of the right to decide while I have 50% of the emotional consequences of HER decision? It's bullsh*t plain and simple(ain't society FULL of it though?!) if a man is faced with 50% of the consequences of his actions during sex then he should have 50% of the right to decide whether the baby lives or dies. Period. If she wants the baby, and he doesn't...he should be able to pay his way out of it just like he is currently forced to pay his way into it. Say he pays for all of her prenatal care and the hospital bill at birth then he's paid off his obligation. After all SHE decided to have the baby, he didn't..SHE should pay the consequences of that decision. He should pay for having unprotected sex and THAT's IT. Let's say he wants the baby and SHE doesn't? Her consequence for unprotected sex is nine months of pregnancy. He still pays prenatal, he pays hospital bills, once the child is born, it's HIS and she's obligation free at that point. Men should NOT be left out of the loop when it comes to this decision...especially for as long as society is willing to force them to pay the consequences of that decision. No there really IS no justice. Life is still good anyhow. 010501 ... kx21 Men should learn from Women... Men's rights movement/ organisation to balance the power of Women's rights movement / organisation? 010502 ... kx21 US' rights over UN's seats... 010513 ... Alexander Beetle kind of like anarchy hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hrm 010611 ... j_blue sexes will only be absolutely equal when reproductive technologies free both sexes from the reproductive functionality of their organs until then, instead of pushing for better protections, we should be pushing for better technologies especially since no amount of protections will ever ensure that only those who want babies will be having them 010611 ... Dafremen You realize of course that that SAME argument could be applied to protections for same-sex couples and people with homosexual tendencies(heheh what a word huh? Tendencies.). How would you feel about forgetting about the protections in favor of better technologies for creating equality among the sexually diverse? Doesn't sound quite so appealing then does it? 010611 ... nocturnal at work um, daffy...I don't think that's even remotely possible. plus, I think both ideas are detrimental to society as a whole. there are some things that are better left alone. 010611 ... Dafremen I agree completely. I'll do my part..you do yours and j-blue can do his. What's wrong with that? 010611 ... nocturnal at work works for me. I'll get right on it. 010611 ... Dafremen Heh heh heh. Right ON what?! (Ok so that was too easy and hardly worthy of me...) 010611 ... j_blue can you imagine a truly gender-less reproductive cycle? one or two individuals donate a few cells to their friendly neighborhood geneticist; who, through various manipulations, transforms them into happy and compatible haploid cells (sadly, two female parents would have to settle to a man made y or just accept daughters) which would be fertilized and, depending on the genders and preferences of the parents to be, would either be decanted from an artificial womb or be inseminated into an appropriate parent isnt that great? then we would all live happily ever after. no one would ever have to have a baby if they didnt want to, anyone could have kids whenever they want, and everyone's rights are respected! and the conservative definition of family, along with all those damned pesky bio-ethicists would just have to screw themselves in our capitalistic society, where ethics and religion are vague at best, there is nothing to stop this from happening ;) 010611 ... dB Yes, "And the lord Rupert said; 'Let their be test-tube babies! And let them be fertilised and brougth up in a world of confusion and sti-coms. Where nobody knows how they work, or why, but they are there, so maybe these 'babies' should get fed or something. And let these babies grow and multiply, and become even more genetically perfect, surpassing many times over the qualities of their parents. And let them become unsettled, in a world that they can't fathom because it is so stupid. Let there be an uprising, where these genetically perfect beings overthrow their parents, using their superiority to cast the old mankind down forever into a pit of decomposing champanzee smegma. And let old mankind rejoice at the great career move they've just made." And the lord Rupert looked down at his creation, and even he saw that it was a load of crap. But it was the enterprise culture of a people who act before they think, and so it was good. Amen. 010611 ... Dafremen "Last time I checked f*cking was still a good thing" - An obscure reference to another blather 010611 ... unhinged not here. not with him. especially with him, there will never be justice. the tarot was wrong. such is life. oh_well. 010612 ... kx21 If justice can be found at Everything in Life, God will become redundancy... 010613 what's it to you? who go blather from