do_looks_matter Lemon_Soda I say yes, and not just in a pervert bone-you kind of way. When you look at someone initially your given a very definite impression of how they like to present themselves, how secure they are with themselves, and how much they care for themselves. In presentation, your appearance sends definative messeges to people: things like "open", "stay away", "different" and so on. These impressions are very powerful because they act as the initial template, or "snap shot" that a persons mind will bring forth when they think of you. Images related to the way you carry yourself will automatically come to mind, and initial reactions will be determined by these images. Your stance and demeanor are as much physical indicators as anything else. Whether you walk tall, slouch, dart your eyes about nervously or insisently tap your foot while waiting in line speaks worlds about you aswell. Did you know that having your hands in your pants pockets is a sign of insecurity? Or if you look higher than directly infront of you while walking your percieved to have a superiority problem? How much you care for yourselves is directly related to appearance. Are you well groomed? Is your clothes clean? Do you eat right? How about excersise? All of these things affect how people see you and the initial respect your given, just by looking at you from across the room. Is it wrong to judge people by their looks? Absolutely not. Whats wrong is when you never look deeper than that after interacting with them. I for one will find a showered individual, with a confident posture, and clean raiment more attractive then someone who smells and looks like a pig sty and creeps when he walks. I'll have to interact with them before I'll ever know that one is a jerk and the other isn't. I have heard many arguments about how image shouldn't matter and people who allow appearance to have say in their opinions are shallow, but what I don't think these people realize is you cannot avoid image. You will always impress these things on other people whether you nay say it or not. We are social creatures, and our bright or dim feathers, sleek or dirty fur, pleasent or noxious smells, and toned or flabby figures are going to make a difference. 050531 ... Devils Advocate What about the blind? 050531 ... Lemon_Soda Lucky they don't have to deal with it, though I imagine they arn't to impressed by someone who smells bad. 050531 ... mytwohands aww lemon_soda has an excellent point. i don't think it's so much physical appearance that (ought) to matter, but the inward appearance that shines through. thus, a confident person appears confident by their stance and demeaner (forgive my spelling), just as you said. if a person appears sure of themselves and open to others, they will get just as far in life as any incredibly attractive person using their good looks to get ahead. because i'd argue that it's not so much as looks that are important in society as self-esteem. even if you're doing something utterly wrong, if you appear to have full confidence in your method, people will merely find your new way of going about things witty and amusing, rather than poorly educated/brought-up/etc. try it; it works, i swear. and as for the blind, they are on a whole different level of society, which is no one way comparable to the rest of us (i'd argue). they have mastered the art of potentially using the four senses they do have to do far more extrodinary things than the rest of us (if they so choose). i believe that once someone looses their sight, they gain a far greater sight than any seeing person has. thus, looks do not matter to them, because they cannot (look) anywhere, so the question really isn't applicable at all. 050531 ... stork daddy do you admit that you feel disgust that must be overcome when you see a person with no legs? 050531 ... stork daddy it is a valid criteria as to certain judgments, but not a determinative one, nor one from which all judgments can be safely made. 050531 ... Lemon_Soda When I see someone with no legs the thoughts that come to mind are 1) sorrow for their loss 2)wondering how it happened. If I engage the person, then I let our conversation steer my opinion more. If I donot engage them, I'll more then likely turn my mind to something else as I am nolonger interested. Its hard to be more definitive than that because other factors are not being considered. Are they begging on the street or are they well groomed and wheeling it to or from the office? I save disgust on appearance for people I see behaving in a fashion that deserves such a reaction, like raping pigs in the park or something. 050531 ... stork daddy what it comes down to is that there are some "appearances" that are clearly rationally related to value judgements. when people say "you shouldn't judge based on apperances" what they really mean is that too many people make judgments that aren't valid inferences from the appearance they judge off of. like being nervous around someone of arab descent. of course our emotional reactions to apperances are a large part of the psychology that has evolved in us - and while jumping to conclusions (better safe than sorry) may have given us a survival advantage in the past, it is not a very rational process and shouldn't be encouraged in a civilized society when there are other methods of making judgments available that are more predictive and valid. that said, most people don't have time for that, so the system they have works for them. and of course when it comes to attractiveness, physical apperances play a huge role, because they tended to be linked to certain desirable features enough for our psychology to develop around them. you can't tell a peacock not to like bright feathers. it's how they work. of course a peacock is more limited in its other methods of appraisal, and i don't find encouraging people to use methods readily available and more efficient very erroneous. will most people take the time to talk to someone rather than go by their appearances? probably not. but that doesn't mean that those who do eschew such flash conclusions aren't doing something worth doing. 050531 ... Lemon_Soda Um...yay. Kinda like recycling. Not everybody does, but its worth doing if you do.(And we would all be alot better off if everyone did) 050531 what's it to you? who go blather from