morals_without_religion Infinite Luv The question was proposed, can we have morals without religion. Can one have morals if they didn't believe in some form of a higher being? Or, are both morals and religion dependent on each other. Im using the term religion in the sence of believing in someone or something (higher being), or just a way of life upon which you base your moral values. 070118 ... z see: the_nihilism_question intelligent_design seeking_enlightenment a_note_on_cultural_relativism ordered_universe_or_free_will unintelligent_design 070118 ... pete the answer is yes, the reason is community. 070119 ... nocturnal while it doesn't focus directly all that much on the issue of religion, I strongly recommend jonathan dancy's Ethics Without Principles. He talks about how one can still be an ethical person without following any fixed set of rules on which to base his ethics, which, let's face it, is why religion and morality are so commonly understood to be inextricable from each other - one's religion serves as a moral handbook for its followers. but to say the two are inextricable is to say that atheists are, by definition, immoral or at least amoral, and that clearly is not the case. 070119 ... Lemon_Soda To say you are an aethiest(sp?) is to say you believe in no set religion. You BELIEVE in no set religion. This is contradictory unless one applies the differance between faith and belief. If you have FAITH that there is no set religion, you have an absolute trust in the belief(as any issue of Faith can only be seen as belief to an objective party)that there is no correct/true/absolute religion. But to hold any faith defines you as devout. Devout can only apply if there is a religion. aethiest idealism is being devout about the belief that there is no religion to subscribe too. Aethieism then has no leg to stand on as it is functionally a religion unto itself. It simply does away with openly acknowledging the previously immutable traditions and rituals of a secular fashion. An aethist can say "I do not pray or believe in a higher power or attend mass. I have no religion". But they still worship. They still have a set of morals(no matter how base or deviant). They still pray. Only not in the traditonal sense. Capitalism, communism, democracy, aristocrisy, fashion, and schooling. Society itself(any society) fulfills the requirements of religion: traditions, congregation, moral standards, intrinsic paths of self improvement, a WAY to BE. Any person can say "this is how it is and why it is and everything else isn't my concern." It is trusting in the truth of any of these that eases our instinctly need for spiritual growth. Think of principles, ideas, and laws as iconic,idealic spirits unto themselves. Spirits people follow. Spirits people trust. Spirits people show faith in and ,because of their devotion to them, worship. You cannot escape belief. You can only commit to it, change it, or let experience change it for you. We all believe in something. Sometimes we just don't like what we believe. 070119 ... pete To be atheist is to be a-theist, without a god. Not to believe in not set religion but to not believe in the existence of something. 070119 ... epitome of incomprehensibility I second Lemon Soda on that--everyone has beliefs; athiesm is a belief... but beliefs aren't quite the same thing as religion, the term "belief" is much broader 070119 ... z LS: by that argument i am aspiritual. i do not believe in a higher power, the soul, life after death, aliens, the sentient universe, or life energy. i do not believe in meaning (outside of human construction) inherent purpose, fate or an ordered universal plan. but i do believe that i am et minimum ethical, and moral. i derive my ethics and morality from examination of my expectations of how i would like to be treated by others and the attempt to predict how my actions will effect others. it is that simple. yet it is complicated too. i do not expect my conclusions to match those of others, so adjustments must be made. apologies happen. after all, i am only me. in the absence of a cosmic big foot patriarch, or guidance from slime-mold auras, i have only my self and the reactions of others to rely on. i do pretty well on my own, i think. 070119 ... z also: no santa, no gurus, no spirit guide, no totemic apparitions, no mother nature, no uncle sam, no archetypal hero, no satan, no unicorns, no crystal power, no healing magnets, no fairy tale witches, no dragons, and especially no judeo-christian holy men. 070122 ... LS How do you deal with death? 070522 ... milkman well, i can only see or say how the living deal with death, most of the time it makes people sad when they lose a loved one through death because they miss them.. its like an empty void... a lonleiness that will probably never be filled. i always think it is better to celebrate death because i see it as freedom. there is nothing you can do once someone is dead, you can't change it, you can only wish them peace and try to find peace yourself. 070522 ... z LS: (to me) death is a verb, not a noun. i will die, and then be no more. death is the end of the association of my constituent parts which makes them function as me. the parts will dissipate into my environment and i will be no more. the materials that i am made from will exist, i will cease. nothing of my consciousness will persist. i will be dead. 070522 ... Lemon_Soda And how do you feel about that? 070523 ... z sad, if i dwell on it, but it is not an overwhelming saddness. it does not rule my life. it is simply a fact. 070523 ... Lemon_Soda If it is a fact, unavoidable, and just part of the the way things are then why does it make you sad to think of it? 070523 ... z because i do not relish the notion of not existing. life is precious to me. i love existing. experience is all i have. i expect no more. 070524 ... ? it is your belief, then, that every single thing you experience is inherently tied to the carbon-device that is your corporeal form? you do not believe there is even %0.00001 of your experiential life that lives external to your corpse? 070524 ... z my corpse is the place where experience exists. the experiences are sourced from my environment. the record of them is recorded in my brain. when my brain is gone, they will be gone too. nothing of them will remain. 070524 ... copypaste "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." 070524 ... z can paste too i can not agree. science without religion is rational. religion without science is faith. 070524 what's it to you? who go blather from