de_facto miniver Yeah, but not even looking at the big, absurdly unarguable picture. You have different positions and different ways of arguing for different sorts of arguments. So, if you set yourself within the boundaries of a particular type of arguing, then you can be right about that. It's a smaller thing than the big, absurdly unarguable picture, granted -- but I think I can totally win at it, and a lot too! But maybe I guess that would be why the system developed in the first place. 010109 ... sabbie and they always think we're not really commited cos we havent walked down that mythical isle. and its been 5 years now, but still they think that it may well crumble at any moment. otherwise they mutter to themselves like chickens coming home to roost they would 'bite the bullet' he would ask her or she would ask him and then we'd know for sure. my commitment is my commitment not to be paraded infront of all i dont need a ring a ceremony and all that shit to know he's my forever boy. and i shall look back at the end of my life with satisfaction that we made it all the way without a piece of paper. we have the commitment already all the rest is just a show for others. and ive never been in the habit of indulging others. 010225 what's it to you? who go blather from