empathy epitome of incomprehensibility This may be completely wrong, but I've had some thoughts about empathy, and the crux is this: I'm not sure empathy makes someone a kinder person. Of course, it depends on how you define empathy. I'm talking about the ability to feel what you imagine someone else feels, or, more broadly, to coordinate feelings to a situation. E.g., my brother hits his elbow on the table and I wince, thinking that it must feel uncomfortable; he tells me Priscilla Tolkein has died and I feel a brief sadness, just because she happens to be the daughter of a writer we both like. The thing is, my wincing won't mean that I actually say anything to comfort my brother (he doesn't need it in this case, but in other situations he might). My sadness won't make me do anything to help Tolkien's relatives - I probably can't, because of the distance between us. I might, like in "presence," have a sense of some shared experience, but it remains internal to me. That doesn't mean that I *can't* externalize it, that someone can't use empathy to help others, but that it doesn't necessarily follow. ... It was under the word "psychopath" or "sociopath" that I tried to articulate my reasoning the reverse way: just because someone can't feel "empathy" as such, doesn't mean they're doomed to be cruel to others. But I think I was too combative (apologies for that). Plus, I didn't really mention my personal stakes, which might have made things clearer: it seems that, time and time again, my emotions have made things worse for me and others, rather than better. So I approached that discussion being both a) a little jealous of so-called sociopaths, because I imagined that without so many emotions I'd find it easier to be nicer to people and b) sad about the stigma against them, because it's not their fault if they're neurodivergent. I am too, in a different way. Now yes - it IS their fault if they use that to consciously manipulate people or commit crimes. Most people can figure out what's cruel to others, even if they can't personally relate to them. (Society can skew this better or worse, but my Intro to Psych class told me that both altruism and selfishness are fairly universal in humans.) ... A few weeks ago, I heard someone on the radio, I think a psychologist, say that people with ADHD tended to be distracted by emotions. She had ADHD herself. Me: Yes. This. So much! Then she said that they also tended to enjoy spending time in nature, and I was like, "Maybe? Maybe that has nothing to do with ADHD and you're universalizing something *you* do?" (thiiiiiis might also apply to everything I say here) But seriously, I think it's important to consider "empathy" from multiple perspectives. "Neurodiverse" ones, if you will. Not that minority perspectives like mine are more important. But AS important, maybe. I think stereotypes about lacking empathy, about being emotionless, affect autistic people in particular. They're often presented as being robotic or inflappable in situations where being emotional is "normal"...and then weird or crazy for having emotional upsets about situations where emotion might not be expected. If you take those two things together, they're pretty contradictory. The more logical conclusion is that people with autism often express emotions differently than those without it. I don't have autism, or anything that's currently defined as autism as far as I know, but I got a little bit of the latter part growing up (why are you getting angry/sad/amused/excited about X thing? weird). And I'm sure everyone's experienced being out of step emotionally with a group. You often have to kind of read a group to get the emotional language of the people in it. 220525 ... nr i know i've talked a lot about psychopaths/sociopaths under "psychopathy," but i'd say it involves a lot more than just lacking some empathy. it's lacking empathy and a conscience ALL the time. i don't blame these people for being the way they are, because they don't usually have a choice, but to me the stigma is warranted. if they are this way and they actively try NOT to do harm for whatever reason, then that's forgivable. but i know of too many people whose lives have been ruined by (often nonviolent) psychopaths. but sometimes i offhand (but not really) wish i could have a bit less empathy/feeling/worry for others and indulge my psychopathic side a little. at least have that empathy off-switch. 220525 ... e_o_i Ah, thank you! I didn't have the right blathe. I read the whole thing over again, cringing a bit about how my thoughts were all over the place; I hope I control that better now. (Plus I had this sudden fear that I completely ignored Amy's invitation to email her, so I did a search and it turns out we did write a bit in summer 2015. She said she met you, too.) 220525 ... e_o_i Also, I have a couple of things I want to add, to clarify terms: First I have to correct myself, because I was confusing "empathy" and "feelings". If someone classified as a psychopath, sociopath, etc. craves excitement, that's a sort of feeling. Anger, definitely a feeling. So you can have feelings without empathy. Second, I'm not sure about putting "empathy" and "conscience" together either. You can have a conscience without empathy, at least theoretically. Because the sense of what's right or wrong to do doesn't necessarily depend on imagining someone else's feelings. It could help, maybe? Third, even if you don't develop a conscience the same way others do, it's generally just more logical to treat people well than to treat them badly, in terms of pure self-interest. So maybe, probably, someone would need to have other problems as well as an empathy deficit in order to engage in harmful "psychopathic" behaviour (I remember "antisocial personality disorder" being a term, as well as something about attachment-related trauma, but I don't have the specifics now). ... Now, I realize we might not agree 100%, and that's okay. We have different backgrounds, experiences. It really sucks that people close to you were emotionally abused. A friend of mine had a former partner who was abusive that way. (Psychopathic? I don't know, but her mental issues did seem to contribute, unfortunately.) Also, just on a logical level, we're dealing with abstract terms and any definition of "feelings," "empathy," or "conscience" will be fuzzy. ... But I think I should make a case for psychological divergence as something that is part of humanity and not a reason to be inherently suspicious of someone. And that holds even if many mental conditions - e.g. schizophrenia, anxiety, executive functioning disorders - can be problems. I don't mean to sound naively positive. Personally, I'm suspicious of statements like "ADHD is great because you're more creative!" Like, I'd rather be creative AND be able to organize time like "normal" people, thanks. (Although making jokes about what the letters stand for is fun. For me.) I mean this from a human rights perspective: I believe it's wrong to call any person less than human, no matter how their minds work. That I won't compromise on, even if I'm wrong about everything else. I'm not saying you (nr) would, these days. But just to anyone else who might, well...do these statements sound fair? -Asexual people are less human, because they lack a key experience of human connection (?) -Autistic people are less human, because many of them can't automatically communicate the way allistic people can (?) -People born without feet are less human, because they can't have the experience of having feet (?) (This isn't meant to be aggressive and I'm probably throwing a lot of random stuff in the mix, again. I did have a personal example I wanted to include - something that's connected to other things I wrote - but now I'm tired and I need to finish eating an apple.) 220525 what's it to you? who go blather from