uppity_christians_and_atheists magicforest Let go of your need to convince everyone of your rightness. Even if the other side has an argument more filled with holes than a sponge. Just let it go. You can't save those who don't want to be saved. You can't illuminate those who don't want to be illuminated. At a certain point, you must look at the person you so bitterly and passionately are arguing with and realize that nobody is going to switch sides, that you might as well just sit back down and have a cup of coffee with them and appreciate them for at least becoming passionate about things like you do. We don't need skites_who_fight. Do you? 041106 ... unhinged i'm not an atheist i believe it's pretty apparent that i'm not christian either 041106 ... from now on i believe in bunny rabbits 041106 ... ??????? But spreading disinformation is never acceptable and should be prevented if possible. I don't expect to be able to disabuse a lifelong Chistian of his religious beliefs (although it is certainly possible to do so), but I don't want any other people stumbling upon certain pages to mistakenly think Lincoln and Jefferson were fundamentalist Christians when they were not. No one should accept obvious disinformation as harmless difference of opinion. 041106 ... magicforest I'm not referring to specific blatherskites. I'm referring to specific blathes. 041106 ... smurfus rex I'm with magicforest...it's much easier to talk with someone when they don't have to defend who they are. Just talk about your day over a couple of mochas...there are some things you just can't change. 041107 ... iNsEcUrE_GoTh_GiRl chill out i think im right, you think you're right we could both be wrong! who cares? disagreeing with somebody's religion is one thing, but letting it affect your relationship with them is another. I have friends who are atheists, buddhists, muslims, christians and wiccans, to name but a few. You can't be friends with people if you dont know when to just back the fuck down and just chill n talk about shit. All you zealots out there, just calm down....have a joint, whatever. Don't let religion screw you over.... there's far more interesting topics already there to do that. 041107 ... kookaburra i don't really care about disproving anyone's religion...it's only when people want to impose their beliefs on me *cough cough* abortiongaymarriagestemcellresearch *cough cough* that i get angry... 041107 ... sameolme Sounds like a nasty cough. Try a Saint Jeromes cough drop. Never heard of Saint Jerome? Have a seat and I'll tell you all about this wonderful man and how he can save YOU from BAD BREATH. 041107 ... Lila Pause Anyone who has been raised by their family to believe in a particular religion knows how difficult it can be to shake these beliefs off, or to even ever be able to look at the arguments of the other side objectively. What religion (especially christianity) thrives on is guilt. Those who believe never have the same objectivity or freedom as athiests, because fears such as the threat that not believing may result in an eternity in hell- a core idea in the doctrine- colors discourse and limits objectivity, and will continue to do so until the individual is freed from the guilt-ridden shackles that bind believers so effectively. Consquently, it becomes pressing for those who have broken free to help others to "see the light" which is (ironically) obscured by blind christian faith. 041108 ... magicforest Religion thrives on guilt for some people. Not for others. A big problem with this whole new blathertrend of religious mania is the denial of subjectivity. People are trying too hard to make universal statements about God or Christianity or atheism. There may be universal truths about these mindsets out there, but you must remember that regardless of whether or not there is "one truth", there are many people out there who will disagree as to the "one truth". Some people are foolish, but others have put just as much heart, soul, time, knowledge, research and exploration into their spiritual quest as you and have somehow managed to arrive at a different answer! Instead of trying to berate eachother for not arriving at the same one, ask yourselves this: how morally different are the two of you? AND Do you both not feel the thrills and tragedies of being alive? AND Are you not attacking things very vital to eachother's souls? AND Are you not essentially attacking them for your sake and not theirs? AND Do you know that there are times to fall silent? . 041108 ... smurfus rex this is why I love magicforest :) she brings up a good point...what's the *real* motivation for requesting proof of God's existence? Is someone simply wanting another person to say "you're right"? Is it an ego thing? Is it a superiority thing? Kinda sounds like it. However, some folks forget that, just as there is more than one road that leads to New York City, there is more than one way to reach spiritual truth (whatever that might be). Everybody has their own way of getting there, and everybody has their own impression of what it is, and everybody attaches their own brand of significance to it. My road may not be the same as your road and *that is the beauty of it*. The recent blathes that have been started surrounding this topic remind me of discussions that I have read and heard before the election...instead of vigorously debating political candidates, it's now vigorously debating belief systems. It is said that the two topics you should not discuss at a dinner party are religion and politics, and these blathes are examples of why. Have a Coke and a smile. :) 041108 ... () (truth is a decision, a stopping place in the process of discovery, a frozen lesson.) 041108 ... Lila Pause Passion depends on the (possibly misguided) belief that YOU are right. Without passion, you may be open-minded, you may be fanastically tolerant, but life is a dreary shade of grey (you know, the one you get to know so well after 6 months on prozac...). As MTV likes to say, CHOOSE OR LOSE!. You can sit on the fence having sympathy for every perspective, believing that everything is relative, that everyone is right in their own mind and it doesn't really make a difference what people believe as long as they have the choice, or you can pick a side and fight, because you believe that you're right, and right and wrong are not purely subjective concepts. You can acknowledge that the holecaust was carried out only because one very sick individual was able to convince a lot of sane people to put their faith in nazi doctrine. Ditto religious cults and mass suicides (should we just accept this it was the objective choice of these people to die?) ...If religious and fanatical movements were completely passive and free of coercion in their existence, then perhaps I would agree that people should be left without contest to objectively evaluate information and make a decision for themselves, but a) this is rarely the case, as doctrine generally requires that the word be broadcast to the "lost sheep" and b) doctrine is often precipitated by action which negatively affects people's lives (that would be fundamentalism and terrorism) But hey, freedom of choice! (...Of course freedom of choice would presuppose an ideal world without pain and suffering, without coercive factors and without the sort of hopeless desperation that is so suspectable to charletons peddling bigoted fairy stories) 041109 ... magicforest I will never argue with the importance of having passion. My questions are: Does having passion mean picking an extreme side? Can you be passionate and believe that you don't know everything, that you may be wrong, that things aren't cut-and-dry black-and-white all the time? Or does passion equate to being sure, to believing that you mind can never be changed? Is recognizing the existence subjectivity the same as no longer caring what's right and wrong? If you say "everyone believes something different, including me" does that mean that the actions you make based on your personal set of beliefs don't matter? Or can you believe that some things are subjective and still see that the actions you make based on your beliefs will affect the world, create ripples, touch things, and therefore matter? If you acknowledge that some things are subjective, does that mean that there is no universal truth? Or could it be that universal truth is not handed down by a deity but perhaps created and spawned by humanity itself? Explanation: We say murder is wrong, and it matches the Bible, and we are content: it is a universal truth. It has been handed down by something superior to us. If you say that abortion is wrong however, nobody in the Bible discussed what to do about modern abortion, and yet there are still those who believe the wrongness of abortion is universal truth. Now, I'm not taking any side on abortion, I'm asking where did they get that idea? There are those who believe that the universal truth is that you can steal a few grapes from the supermarket to see if they taste fresh and there are those who insist that such an act would lead to Hell. Without someone superior to all of humanity telling us what the universal truth is, we don't know. So we look for someone superior to humanity, and disastrously, we find many. We find the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Islamic God, the Hindu God, the Buddhist God (worst of all, some are accompanied by God-friends!) and we again fight and try to figure out which God is the universal God. It's a vicious cycle, it's neverending. What you must do is decide for yourself what is wrong for everyone and right for everyone and live accordingly. This is the passionate quest for the universal truth, and it does not lose any of its nobility in the fact that people may end up disagreeing with you. When you do decide on your truths (they will keep changing as you live, so long as you keep experiencing things) just remember that everyone else is living on their own decision of universal truth. Just remember that the first step to knowledge is realizing you know nothing. Remember that everyone else is looking, just like you. Remember that everyone else is just like you. Even if it's awful to believe. . 041109 ... (z) (see: consentual_reality) 041109 ... (oops) (better yet, see: consensual_reality) 041109 ... Lila Pause You're right! That is a terrfying thought. And one of my worst fears! But I disagree. I think passion is a selfish narrow-minded emotion. And I believe that its our ego that sustains us. The worst times in my life have been when something I held dear and true crumbled to bits, crushing my reality as I knew it. And the times I've felt most suicidal have been when I felt that everything was uncertain, nothing was true, and everything was subjective. And in all cases it was never doubt or open-mindedness that improved my situation. I had to believe whole heartedly and stubbornly in something again. Uncertainty is a massive threat to anyone's wellbeing (this might ring a bell for anyone who has ever questioned christians or homophobic individuals) So when you say that you are perpetually open-minded, are you really open-minded (that is, willing to trade in your own certainies) or are you really just tolerant of others' beliefs? ...Even to acknowledge that you know nothing is put your faith in the superiority of some greater knowledge not yet learned. Uncertainty is not an easy state to live in, which is why most of us only pass through it briefly before we reform our reality and find a new set of values to cling onto, or finding nothing convincing... slash our wrists and be done with it. 041109 ... magicforest Better to know that you don't know the truth than know the illusion. I'll take the depressing reality, thank you. I've tasted blissful ignorance. It's sour. But it's a personal decision. You makes yours. I make mine. I wasn't expecting to convince you of anything. 041109 ... Lila Pause Well I see it more as human nature than a personal decision. But, yes. 041109 ... magicforest As usual, I would argue the opposite: most people prefer to be happy and not know everything. We are truth-seekers, but only when it's something pertaining directly to us. One of my favourite quotes is from Henrik Ibsen, who suggested that we all can only live happily by believing in one vital lie. You hear a lot of people moaning at some point in time, "God, I wish I hadn't known...I wish he didn't tell me..." And do you know what? That's okay. It's just another way of being human. There are so, so many. I am curious about what kind of films/music/books you like, Lila Pause? 041110 ... Lemon_Soda Uppity religion in general. Religions are societys that give a word to an unknown entity, claim its bigger than us in every way, and then tells us that this massive unknown power wants us to act this way. Why? Because it told our leader so. 041110 ... meta meta 051214 ... Tirade tirades_of_blather 060119 what's it to you? who go blather from