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virgo http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/08/17/nstars17.xml 030819
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Dafremen I'm amused. This anonymous Virgo, in typical Virgo fashion, has happened upon and JUMPED upon something that to HIM is irrefutable proof. (He's taking someone's word for it because they share his opinion.) Yet the fact that he is nit picky, discriminating, meticulous and probably accused of being a criticizing nag is lost on him. It never registers. It's like he assumes that EVERYONE is a nit picker who straightens crooked picture frames and likes their clothing neat like the rest of their surroundings. In fact, everything that I've written here should be an insight_into_the_obvious for our poor misguided Virgo friend, but alas..he has already left his faith at the altar of the scientific establishment rather than place it in his own two eyes and his own common sense. Typical Virgo..such a perfectionist, invariably as human and fallable as the rest of us.

see also:
DEAR_CARL_SAGAN
(I'm game if you are.)

P.S. You'll be "startled" to know that this isn't the first time twins study done. You'll also be "alarmed" to hear that the results of these studies differ drastically, usually as a direct reflection of the researchers' goals when they began the research. (Both for and against astrology) Seems it's difficult to conduct research into controversial subjects without coming up with the exact results that one was hoping for. I wonder why that is? Maybe because noone is searching for the truth, just bragging rights and the ability to say "Nya Nya I told you so!"
How hopelessly pathetically political our beautiful (at one time objective)science has become. How sad. Copernicus would roll over in his grave to hear that the same hard-headed establishment that ridiculed him is still at it so many centuries later. We've come so far...don't you think?
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virgo i know it's typically virgo, which is why i identified myself as such. i also found it highly amusing how it started off addressing the typically skeptical virgo.

but i don't assume people are like me and i am not a neat person.

also, "common sense" tells me that a person's upbringing has more to do with their personality than their birthdate/time or planetary alignment.
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Dafremen What common sense failed to read up on is that astrology teaches that too. Of very relevant concern to every competent astrologer are the cultural roots and the social background of their clients. (The fake and money grubbing "astrologers" out there can go blow themselves.)

For instance, although people with strong Aquarian influences tend to be taller than most, a 5'7" Aquarian might appear to quash that notion, until you take into account that 5'7" is pretty damned tall for a Japanese woman. You might say that folks with strong Gemini influences would tend to splurge their cash..but then again, if one had come from a background of poverty or such, one might be inclined to hold on to that cash with a bit tighter fist.

Astrology is concerned not with proving that human birthdates are the all encompassing nugget of information that will reveal all about each and everybody on the planet. Astrology is concerned with people noticing and observing one another, trying to understand one another, trying to learn to communicate more effectively with one another. Trying not to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

Astrology would be acting counter to its aims if it were to deny the influence of background, heredity and other factors in the equation. Astrology first and foremost admits this: No two human beings are the same. They never will be. Therefore, the intent of astrology has never been to prove that everyone falls into categories. The intent of astrology has always been to shed a little light on perhaps the most illogical but important phenomenon in our lives: human behavior and motivation.

To that end, whether it is because there is something to astrology, or whether it is because through the study of astrology we become more aware, more observant, more attentive to the people around us, astrology helps us understand the people in our lives.

I have given you two possibilities there..one of them is just as picture perfect logical as can be(the second one.) The other, you learn by STUDYING and putting astrology into practice. Then you WILL begin to see that there is something to it. Period.

Astrology will not throw out something that is of value. That would be against it's goals and counterproductive.

It's sort of like if your aim is to find the objective truth (empirical science) but you continue to try to disprove a notion(astrology)through sheer force of will, misinformation, propaganda and pretentious academic snobbery.

Wouldn't actually RESEARCHING what that idea(astrology) represents and teaches be a better place to start? How can you begin to set up an experiment when you have only the vaguest notion what it is that you are trying to prove or disprove? If you create that experiment based on limited or incorrect understanding of what is claimed, then you prove or disprove your own invented claims, not those that you THOUGHT you had based your experiment on.

Face it, in practically each and every case, we find researchers coming up with results that back their own opinions. Can this TRULY be an indicator of objective research (on EITHER side of the debate?) I think not. I think the whole mess of them, for and against astrology, are a bunch of pseudopoliticians and nitwits screaming for attention and hoping to "make their mark" (or a quick buck) at any cost before they die.

I looked up a little about the history of the "astrologer" who came up with this study. You might want to do the same. Seems he has spent a good portion of his life trying to disprove astrology, and made quite a bit of money doing so. It also seems that since there are very few ex-astrologers out there that are willing to bash astrology publicly, demand is high for HIS particular brand of "appeals to the gullible."
Perhaps it would have been better to pick someone with a more objective agenda to sift through the data?

P.S. I have yet to meet a Virgo who thought they were neat. If they are critical of those around them, they are far harder on themselves. Virgos are their own worst critics. Anything short of just right, is not quite right.
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nomme the little red wagon is red 030819
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Dafremen The handle is black. The wheels are white. The tires are black. The decals are white. Then, yes...the rest is red. The obvious conclusion isn't always the correct one. 030819
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virgo sheesh, i'll send you a picture of my desk, and guarantee that neither a virgo, scorpio, or whatever, would consider it neat. my point is that your assumptions based on my sign were inaccurate.

two: that's a very nice explanation of what you would like astrology to be. but that's not how astrology started out. astrology started out as a form of divination. priests would look to the sky to forecast anything from the weather to the outcome of wars. the zodiac we know today was originally developed by the babylonians. their signs were replaced with the conquest of alexander the great.

blah blah blah, it's all here: http://www.zombienation.force9.co.uk/newage/fortune/astrolog.html

the point is that what you describe is your own interpretation of what astrology should be.

look at the word itself. its entymology implies the influences of stars and planets, and yet you don't seem to mention them at all. this is because that brings out the weakest points of astrology. if a 2 people are born at the same time, in the same culture/community/location, the planetary whatevers should be *almost* exactly the same.

ahh yes, i know, you are saying to yourself, "almost" is the keyword, but if such a tiny change can create drastic differences, there is no way that any real relationship can be drawn because you wouldn't be restrained to venus in the cusp of uranus rising, you'd have to break it down into such minute units that making accurate measurements would prove futile.
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virgo the handle *could* be red. the wheels *could* be red. the tires *could* be red. there may be no decals. the assumed mistake isn't always a mistake. all you know is that: 1) it is little, 2) it is red, and 3) it is a wagon. don't make assumptions based on your own experiences. who do you think you are, a virgo? 030819
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Dafremen Actually I think I've restated my own point by stating what are CLEARLY assumptions.

In fact, if you have read what I write about astrology, you'll notice something very curious about what I've written on this page: A glaring lack of the following phrases that I am usually VERY careful to use: probably, in all likelihood, in most cases, with the highest probability, etc.

I think you will find that the assumptions that I state EMPHATICALLY here about YOU (that you are male, that your are a neat freak that your are a critical nag, what your opinion is of what that particular skeptic had to say, that you dress neatly and are your own worst critic) are quite contrary to the style in which I would usually present such assumptions. Why? Simple, it's an echo...a reflection..it's a U-shaped tube. It is the exact same presumptuous rubbish that I found when I went to that link. (Didn't it seem ODD to you at all that I assumed so much about what your were trying to say here based on only a link that you left behind? Or are you so used to folks tripping up and them catching them that you thought you were seeing an encore performance? Did you think that you were seeing an easily dismissed New Age buffoon showing his true colors? Welcome to blather, my way.)

Yes. Good for you. You caught assumptions. Glad I only had to toss the ball underhand over the plate to get it there. (Most folks require a whiffle ball tee.)

Now..here's the follow through swing...let's see what you've got:

Go back, read that first link you left here and catch THEIR screw ups and assumptions. Then your analytical gymnastics might be considered impressive.

Until then, I could always do another loop around your head to see what sort of response it will evoke.


P.S. Your undersanding about the origins of astrology is incomplete and not particularly insightful. If you need me to expound here I would be more than happy to do so, but I don't take much pleasure(ok maybe a little)in pulling a person's foot out of their mouth just to kick them in the teeth with it.
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virgo expound away.

the entirety of your most recent response has been, "oh, i threw you an easy one." *yawn* ok, but you haven't really responded then, have you? unless you count your request for me to find the weaknesses in the article. yeah, ok. good response. that's like a christian coming up to me and saying, "you don't believe in God? well first go out and disprove atheism, judiasm, hinduism, buddhism, etc." that's not an argument, that's a redirection. your "loops" don't further your argument any, and it seems that they aren't intended to do so, therefore, this is a waste of time.

you obviously throw underhand because you can't throw overhand.
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nomme is there such a thing as complete_understanding 030819
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virgo i'm outta here. if you've "expounded" already or plan to do so, i will read and reply tomorrow.

ps- just because you've spun yourself in a circle, doesn't mean you've looped anybody.
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akaSpike all of you are stupid 030819
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Dafremen : ) Fun fun fun. Gotta go to the store and get off the computer. I'll expound like gangbusters tomorrow. Should be fun. It's always nice when folks puke up their contempt for all to see. Makes the game so much easier to play that way, when you can see the curve balls coming at you because the kid on the mound telegraphed the pitch. You're about the 30 somethingth to try this same tact and these same tired arguments. So, for the sake of the game, let's see if you can make this interesting..for yer ol buddy Daf, let's say.

P.S. Throwing *yawns* in there to express a feeling of catty disinterest and an air of superiority is trite. Let's see if I can't help you work on your approach a bit. Put a little seasoning in your stone soup, or something like that. : )
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??????? "Throwing *yawns* in there to express a feeling of catty disinterest and an air of superiority is trite."

Oh, and what about saying that your opponent has "puked up" his arguments? Is that not "trite," Daffenstein? You're such a little hypocrite bitch.

Nice job, Virgo. Thanks for keeping it non-retarded.
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once again Well anyway I read most of it. It's a bit long. I got the gist of it basically... in the beggining anyway.

What I'm getting is that Virgo posted this site with the article which I did read. And Daff decided that they weren't presenting all sides... which obviously they weren't. That wouldn't be playing by the rules. The rest of the arguement is prolly just people just putting their pride up cause noone likes to get criticized.

Me and astrology... we live on the same block somewhere. He doesn't offend me and I'd miss him if he were gone, but he's not a big part of my daily routine.

I did read "Mostly Harmless" however, the fifth book in the "Hitchhiker's Trilogy" by Douglas Adams. And it's got a bit to say on astrology... I rather like that view of it. Not a strict set of rules... just some guidlines... suggestions, I dunno.

But I finally joined a debate. I feel like a true blatherskite now.
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oldephebe i am comletely clueless about astrology
Daf what would you suggest as a primer?

maybe i should have put this on ask_Daf

I'm enjoying this spirited debate
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Dafremen I'll ask each and all of you to get one book and only one book and you'll fall in love with astrology: Love Signs by Linda Goodman. It is absolutely the single most insightful book into human nature you will ever read. Sun Signs can be very inaccurate as any astrologer can tell you, but they do give us a bit to go on (I'll get to you empirical types in a few more sips of this beer, hold yer britches) that makes for some of the most fascinating study you have every embarked on. If you want the absolute BEST text with the most insightful and really deep down useful stuff, I suggest a book called You're Every Sign by Phyllis Firak-Mitz, M.A. who is not only an extremely gifted and accomplished astrologer, but holds her Master's in psychology. There are very few truly gifted astrologers out there. Too many have latched on to what a lucrative enterprise duping people can be and they really hurt this misrepresented study of probability by diluting the pool of truly gifted and dedicated people with sh*tbags who wouldn't know a quincunx from a trine without a book, but who take old ladies pension checks all the same because they paid for a $125 dollar course over the internet.

Anyhow..I'm not sure how that primer recommendation turned into a rant, but I apologize and hope you'll understand..because you'll notice that I didn't edit it out. Get one of those two books. Start to watch the people around you. If yer trying to meet that special person hey, asking someone when their birthday is out of the blue is about the all time easiest way I know of to steer the conversation into interesting territory with a stranger. You'd be surprised at how the quality of your life changes when you get through asking the people around you all sorts of out of the blue questions about their person feelings, likes and dislikes. You'd be surprised at how much easier it becomes to relate to them, to undersand their behavior and what motivates them to do what they do and to take it in stride and give their personality room to breath and be what it is. You'd be awfully surprised if you took the time to check it out.

I know one stone-cold, logical, U.S. Patent-for-software-innovation worthy sunuvabiatch that sure was. I owe THAT, to a curious but also gifted gentleman by the name of Professor A.F. Seward. The book that changed my life is here:

http://thezodiac.tk

You really gotta throw out alot of his mumbo-jumbo talk about solar magnetic influences (might be true but, eh...who needs it?) but some of his insights are really good.

Ok, now back to the empirical nitwits..so you've got all of this PROOF do you? Name the last book on astrology that you read, prove that you studied it by answering a few simple astrology questions that I will provide for you in astrological symbols (so that you can't look them up on google) and I'm all ears and we have a basis for a rational, logical, reasonable discussion.

Until that time, you are the drunkards with not ONE shred of ammunition that is based on anything but the speculation of someone that you know NOTHING about except through a little blurb that agreed with your mental digestive tracts and which you bought, hook line and sinker. That is the reality.

You may now amuse me with your nose-in-air attempts at avoiding what you need to do without looking like drooling biscuit gummers to me. I'm not kidding or deluded and you had better re-examine the reasonable nature of what I'm asking you to bring to this debate or your judgement's ability to be objective and reasonable will, by all rational and objective people found to be suspect, I'm afraid. Even if you use that old argument that goes something like..let me see: "Why would I look into something that is complete RUBBISH? Next you'll have me looking into unicorns and leprechauns." Fine. I'm afraid, though that you'll be looking one intelligent and rational (and quite PROBABLY egotistical) bastage like me in the eye and showing me what your real opinion of the truth is. Not enough to get your lazy ass up and get half of an education on astrology to decide what you believe. That's what your opinion of the truth will be. You'll be dismissed and the rest will be entertainment for the masses of which I am proudly a member and so will be duly entertained. I worked my ass off to learn what I've learned up to this point. Screw your lazy ass for trying to tell ME what is and isn't whithout ever having done an interview or two or cracked open a book. Without ever having really looked into it. I repeat, and with all due respect and all apologies for any misunderstanding, f*ck you if you come into this without having taken any effort to look into this objectively. Too many people spend decades watching, waiting observing and helping to have to listen to you pretentious know-nothings blow air because you read an article and saw a daily sun sign based horoscope or two that was vague as hell.

This will be the only rational (ok mildy rational) response you may expect from me unless you come clean with your ignorance about astrology or prove that you have checked into it objectively or just plain shut the f*ck up because you're not prepared for this debate. The rest will just be mud wrestling for the mob. I'm game..
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not important I seriously dislike the scientific studies to disprove astrology. Then again, more money is spent on astrology than astronomy in the United States, so I understand the scientific community feeling it has a point to prove. But there are two problems I have with astrology that do not require any (new) study. 1. The precession of the earth. Sure I would have been a libra back when the signs were developed, but the day I was born the sun was in the constellation Virgo. 2. They left out Ophiuchus! The sun passes through Ophiuchus, and yet it is not a sign. Why doesn't Ophiuchus deserve fame as well? It's even fun to say. Poor Ophiuchus.

But as for the studies? They just aren't scientific enough to provide any new insight.
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hey now! water is wet 030820
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Dafremen The answer to both of your questions is this:

Astrological signs are not based on the constellations. They are based on a 360 degree division of the space around our solar system. The constellations were just markers in the sky, way back when, that told them when the earth was crossing into a new sign.

Precession is not an issue in an earth/solar system-relative system.


P.S. Dear Ophiuchus will have to content itself with being a constellation I'm afraid. (And is that a little tail it has? Now that IS cute.)
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Dafremen By the way phebe -

I mentioned two Sun Sign based books. These are really quick and easy primers like you said, but they have the distinct disadvantage of not showing you how truly complex astrology is. It would blow your mind and make calculus students queasy with fear. I'm still many, many years off before I'll get where I'd like to be. If you'd like an inexpensive book that gives you at least a TASTE of that complexity I'd suggest The Only Astrology Book You'll Ever Need by Joanna Martine Woolfolk. I wasn't as impressed with her accuracy or insight as I was with those other two mentioned, but it is FAIRLY comprehensive. (If you really get into it and keep going, you'll understand why I say fairly. I own 30 some-odd books now and still don't have all of the information that I wish I did.)

If that doesn't sate your appetite then I suggest moving on to:

The Only Way To Learn Astrology Volume I: Basic Principles by Marion D. March & Joan McEvers
Again, their insight is somewhat less than that found in the first two books, but their technique is excellent and their coverage of the basics is straightforward. Astrology is a slow learn, but the results of study are almost immediate, since you tend to want to check it out with the people around you. I started by asking questions and throwing out those that just weren't true enough of the time to be anything but coincidence. What I was left with was some pretty damned good sh*t. Thanks Linda, hell thanks to a lot of really dedicated, gifted astrologers out there who have held my hand up to this point.

Ok, I'm almost done now. I can never quite get myself to shut up about this stuff. Which, if I may, is described by my having the ruler of my 3rd house cusp in the 6th House. (Capricorn is on my 3rd house cusp. Capricorn is representative of Career, Public Standing and Ambition among other things. Capricorn's ruler is Saturn, which, not coincidentally ALSO represents those aforementioned things along with a few others) (The 3rd house is the house of Gemini, it is the house of communication, travel, brothers and sisters and other side-by-side or equal relationships. Particularly we think of mental focus, travel and verbal/written activity. Transmission of ideas is the key.) (The 6th house is the house of Virgo. It is the house related to your work, your health and your habits among other things. It is also the house of selfless service. Duty is a main keyword.)

We put these together and some of the things we might get are found in this interesting insght by March & Evers from Volume III of The Only Way To Learn Astrology Page 24:

"Ruler of the 3rd in the 6th: If you're not careful you can bore others with talk about your job, diet or habits. Your work is important to you, and if it embodies communication of some kind, you are usually very happy. Sometimes this placement indicates the opportunity to work with or for a brother or sister...A job that requires travel, such as mail delivery or route sales, could appeal to you because it allows you to be mobile." I constantly bore the piss out of people with talk about my work (take right now for instance) and I LOOOOVE to communicate in case noone had noticed and my favorite jobs of all of the many jobs I've had have been driving a bus, and doing my burrito/tamale route. I just love being free to move around and talk to people, but still being able to work and earn a living.

It could all be coincidence. I'm sure EVERYONE out there feels the same way. I'm sure we ALL just go on and on and on about our jobs and anyone might love to sell stuff on a route or drive a bus..especially with a $35 dollar an hour gig just a few faxed resumes away.

Anyhow thanks for being so patient, and good luck to the folks that decide to look into it. I look forward to a spirited debate if you look and don't like, or we can compare notes if you get the bug like I did.
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oldephebe umm...ok, i guess i,ll check out the third book you cited/reccomended i suck at math so a primer or novice level book will do me just fine.

thanx for breaking it down
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Dafremen Oh I wasn't talking about the math. The math is simple. I was talking about the human and intuitive elements and the number of variables involved, it really gets to be quite difficult to master. It's nothing that a patient old geEzer with time and an inclination couldn't handle. At least I hope not, because I'm still inclined that way. 030820
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oldephebe i understand i guess i was just being what i thought was insouciant and
self-deprecating -ah does anyone have a recipe for tuna? i'm trying to reduce my carb intake - seriously
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virgo you call that expounding? do you try to hide your lack of having anything to say with your verbosity? seriously, all you've said is that i should go read up some more on it before you'll talk to me. sounds like more hand waving to me. i'll admit that i'm not the hardcore astrolofreak that you are, but i've looked into it many a time as a source of amusement. i don't need to know the details to know the theory. if i've got the theory wrong, then by all means, correct me. you seem content with dismissing my "understanding of the origins of astrology" as "incomplete and not particularly insightful" but don't bother to fill in the missing pieces or to argue any points about it. you really don't have anything worthwhile to say, do you? (suppress_yawn_here) 030820
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Dafremen Hey, you pick your truth in the best way you know how man. If that's how you investigate your facts...by all means have at the reality of the truth you've earned. Since you won't come clean about your ignorance, we'll just (oh should I yawn yawn here? No, I think I'll just look through you. (Good like trying to make a Virgo feel inferior, it's an exercise in futility, they don't feel inferior to anyone and equal to very few.) Thanks for giving us both the forum in which to leave all of this lovely information and a chance to stay up here long enough to get snatched up by googles spider bots. You've been a pal and I'm sure the anti-strology camp will agree. : )

P.S. The day you decide to get educated enough about astrology to tell a cusp from a final depositor (or at least astrology from hoodoo fortune telling misinformation), you are entitle to a rational response by me. Until then, sneer and play it off all you like. I'd expect nothing less of you and enjoy nothing more. By all means make a spectacle of yourself.
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virgo how convenient for you. 030820
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virgo ps- i'm not anti-astrology. i think it's very interesting. i see it like religion, as it is faith-based. you either believe or you don't. hey, whatever gets you through the day. that's not why i would look down my nose at you. i would, however, if for some reason you seem to want to defend your faith without providing any reasons and call all non-believers "nitwits." 030820
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Dafremen Oh all non-believers aren't nitwits. Just those who would try to enter a debate claiming the high ground of intellectual superiority based on nothing more than a belief in skepticism backed by little or no investigation into a phenomenon that is less based on facts that likelihoods and whose best practioners are intuitive, empathetic people watchers, not those whose cold logic somehow got pinched off when they were asked the question: why not look into it if you're so damned intelligent, so damned objective and have enough time on your hands to be spreading your opinion about it? Why not? Because it's a waste of time..right? Because you can't explain HOW it might work? So does that mean that astronauts aren't reabsorbing their own bones mass in space because we're not sure how that works either? (I'm not sure why I decided to respond at least once more in a rational manner, perhaps it's because I know that behind a logical, empirical mind there is usually a sincere intent to discover and embrace the truth. Some of us will go to great lengths to not be fooled and science has always been good to us as far as explaining what works and what doesn't. Maybe that's the kinda thought I like to put into things. Maybe. It doesn't matter, I'll probably f*ck this whole blathe up at the end because I have a great deal of impatience with this sort of hyperfocused faith in the scientific establishment. The sh*t you read in books is a starting point to understanding, but you throw out what doesn't work often enough to be useful and keep what does. That's logic and you do the same thing in your study of at least gray area bullsh*t because if ANYONE is going to root out the f*cking truth in the middle of the opinions, rhetoric and propaganda, it's people with a sincere intent to discover and embrace the truth. I guess that of the many that are able, only a very few care enough to try and find out. Which leaves a big gaping vacuum for the aforementioned moneygrubbing pseudoastrology hocking sh*tbags that we both despise to fill. That's all I've got to say about that. Educate yourself, then judge and no...of course you're not a nitwit if you think it's still rubbish. At that point we will have a sincere difference of opinion that is NOT fueled by blind skepticism. Humanistic astrology is a place to start. The results are immediate and queries can be made straightforward enough to solicit objective responses. I now return you to our regularly schedule lesson in the lunacy of sticking to the "I don't have to learn because there is nothing to learn. Explaining why I've spent so much time here. Discussing how ridiculous nothing is. I've got a unicorn forum that I like to spam with links to the Nova new subscriptions form.)

Well Virgo..*stretch belch sneer*..you're wrong. I could tell you why, but that would be wasting my time and I will not waste my time on the truth what with all of this superstitious astrology stuff that I need to do. Besides, there's a pig that needs gutting in a little bit and I'm going to use the opportunity to check out its entrails and see if the great god Pan is going to endow the love spell I cooked up with his magnetic powers of animal attraction.

Instead, here is a link to an article called Symptoms of Pathological Skepticism:
http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt

Now back to this debate about nothing..

(Puts fingers in ears.)

You're wrong cuz my side told me so. You're wrong cuz my side told me so.
La la la la la la.
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virgo "i will not waste my time on the truth"
that statement suits you daffy.

from what i understand, humanistic astrology is a combination of astrology and psychology, aimed towards describing the characteristics of an individual. it seems to have come into being within the past 100 years. if you consider this to be part of the origins of astrology, then your scope is a little too narrow. it's simply a single, *relatively recent* application of astrology.

http://www.astrologie.ws/morris.htm
Humanistic Astrology was first presented in the writings of Dane Rudhyar, the talented astrologer-musician and seminal mind and author (born March 23, 1895).

http://www.astrocollege.com/campus/dictionary.cgi?ACTION=SEARCH&TERM=Humanistic+Astrology
Originated by Marc Edmund Jones and refined by Dane Rudhyar who utilized the insights of Carl Jung's depth psychology

what puzzles me even more than astrology is why you won't enter in a debate that may or may not enlighten others. perhaps not me, but those who are sitting on the fence, reading along. my posts are about 1/4 the size of yours, so you must take some time in your response. is it that you would rather spend that time avoiding questions and making assumptions than "waste ... time on the truth" and telling me (and others) why i am wrong? if there is "a sincere intent to discover and embrace the truth" out there, your tactics are likely to quash it.

i'm not retired from "a lucrative career as a software engineer" (see:dear_carl_sagan), i've got work to do, so i can't spend my days reading about anything really. this is most likely the case for 90% of the population. wouldn't it make sense for you to spend the 5 minutes to tell me why i'm wrong? or the 5 minutes to tell me the correct theory or origins of astrology?

this is only "a debate about nothing" because you've said nothing.
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Dafremen Did you think I was RETIRED? Heheh no no no, there we go with assumptions again. Boy between the two of us, I don't know. No, virgo, I am living in severe poverty right now, trying to scrape together a career out of writing. As for your information on the origins of humanistic astrology they make absolutely no sense. Humanistic astrology almost certainly evolved as a set of symbolic memory aids to help tribal spiritual leaders both remember and pass on a lifetime of observed patterns in human behavior..other branches of astrology were probably that same principle covering all of the observed cyclic patterns in the natural world in which they lived.

These patterns were likely discovered by people who had three distinct advantages over modern man that would have made them particularly adept at seeing these patterns:

They spent their entire lives together, knew each other intimately..they were family. You saw a person born, grow up, grow old. The shaman got to hear about EVERYBODY'S problems, hopes and dreams. After all, how would he cast the spell or shake the feather the right way if he didn't know what the spell was for?

Watching the signs of changes in climate, water levels, plant growth patterns, whatever was crucial to the survival of these early people. A bad crop year could wipe out a tribe or severely cripple it. These people WATCHED the weather, the cycles of nature, they saw their "gods", watched them move through the sky and saw how they "affected" people. They had no preconceptions about the possibility of cycles of planetary movement being related to weather patterns, people's behavior, food animal populations. They couldn't see how such patterns, if observed repeatedly in conjunction with certain planetary positions, COULDN'T be realated to the activity observed.

Once again, who was the one in charge of telling the people what the gods were bringing in the coming season as far as prosperity, rain, what-not? That's right, the guy who talked to the gods...the shaman. It was probably in his best interest to notice anything that would help give him a better guess, don't you think?

Thirdly, these people were still in close contact with nature and still very much in awe of it's wonder, it's power. They had too much respect for the creations of nature to let them be usurped in their estimation by the creations of man. They let nature tell them what was possible and what wasn't and they were a part of nature.

These observed trends, these patterns, these became the logical and likely basis for all of the known astrological influences. Once a correlation between movement of the heavenly bodies and repetition of these patterns was drawn, it was a simple matter to look into a sky full of stars at the time of year when everything had tendencies that reminded them of the crab in nature. (Actually Cancer was a turtle at one time.)
They then probably called that time of year the time of the crab (or turtle) as a reminder of the characteristics to be observed at that time of the cycle. Then, lo and behold, when you don't have a calendar, you need something to help you figure out where you are in the seasons, so you look up in the big unpolluted sky at the crab(Cancer) time of year and you go..THERE! That looks sort of like a crab! (The constellations...sigh did they ever look like what they were supposed to?) You now have the equivilent of the hour marks on a clock. One constellation to mark each cycle of the seasons. Yay!!! Now we can just look at the movement of the planets and our perspective relative to the various constellations and find MORE patterns. How easy will THAT be to pass on to our apprentice before we die? Gee, I don't know. as easy as describing a way in which the entire scientific world (and some of the astrological one)has the history of astrology bass ackwards. It didn't start with the stars, it started with looking around, the stars were just a tool useful for synchronizing those observations to seasonal cycles and the movements of heavenly bodies.

Ok, there's your food for a debate and once again, it's why I insist that you educate yourself at least to the point where I won't have to keep reiterating the same things that I've repeated over and over again for no reason other than that my fellow debaters/critics think that their time is more valuable than mine and they won't go and crack a book open themselves. Ignorance is easy, in the search for truth you gotta pay dues. Sometimes you find out the time wasn't well spent, sometimes you are rewarded or surprised. In any event, if it's time spent in the pursuit of the truths upon which you will build your belief system, then for gawd sake you can bet the time was well invested. I have no intention of remaining reasonable or coherent if you continue this debate without getting some astrology books under yer belt and do a little bit of detective work. If my above rant doesn't point it out: while you may have legitimate questons, you do NOT have the only reasonable stance here. But I will NOT give you a crash course in astrology just to have you try to tear it apart piece by piece simply because you've never tried to study those pieces as a whole, and you've just never seen it work.

In these sto0pid "debates", it seems time and time again, some self righteous intellectual jumps out and proceeds to waste my time while claiming that educating themselves better would be a waste of theirs. Again and again and again ad nauseum. As for the readers that might get educated or learn something from this? Hey, I wrote an FAQ and the insights series which you were so kind as to mock in this blathes title. I've already done my part to educate and I'll keep doing so on my terms. Now I've got fun to have and sh*t to write and none of it plans to be a 30th edition of the same crap like this "debate" is turning out to be. My time is wasted because you are the only one who stands to learn anything new from this debate and you don't see it that way. You seem to think that your points and questions weren't ground through my own critical mill of skepticism long ago. Get a book, crack it open. At least TRY to learn something. You're a Virgo, you're probably good with data. Go analyze. My portion of this ends here. Go debate something you know about.
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KARL THE WEED ahhhhhhhhhh youre both WRONG!!!!!!!!!! wrongwrongwrongwrong!!!! dont you understand??? WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG
WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG
WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG
WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG
WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG
WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG
WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG!!!
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endless desire it didn't all go to waste.
i learned something.
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random skite astrology is sooo stupid. i mean who the hell cares aobut stars anyway? 030820
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another random skite yeah. i mean, its so confusing, how can it be useful? 030820
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Dafremen I believe you're right Karl. Geezus, gads and GASP! How the HELL could I have thrown so many years of my life and engineering career away on this crap?! MY GAWD!!!! I've been duped...what a FOOL I am! *boo hoo sob sob, weep whimper..snuff*

That's it. I'm putting all of my astrology books in a pile right now. No Karl, no yard sale...I will burn my paper mistakes one by one and let them flutter away with my own naive fantasies. What a blind FOOL I've been all this time. Thanks Karl. Thanks, it just took someone to present it to me in a rational manner. You truly are comic book super hero material. *Snurfle*

see also: karltheweedisanass
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karl the weed yeah, exactly, d&d is sooo much cooler that astronomy anyway.

btw VIRGO YOU SUCK TOO AND YOURE STILL WRONG!! HASNT CHANGED SINCE I LAST POSTED!!!

dont feel bad daf. go out and buy karl #1 and save it, it might be worth something one day, because astrology wont get you anywhere.
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oldephebe 'ey! I tink i learnt a liddle sumpin' here - so ah settle down dere old boy -

Haha A tour de force debate of Oddyssian dimensions - and really you've weaved an intriguing symetry between some of the aboriginal cultures, shamanism and astrology, I've studied aboriginal cultures and a little shamanism, but ah the way you have articulated it here whets my appetite for a little more - nicely done

*oldephebe doffs maroon vintage phillies cap at Dar*

it doesn't negate me to give someone credit or at least concede the merits of someones argument even if I don't whole heartedly agree - just a thought

peace
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oldephebe at Daf not Dar
duh

is an abhorrent speller and typist..hah!
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virgo a sincere thanks daf, for your response and your time.

i am not above doing my own research. if you bring up something unknown to me, i will look it up rather than ask "what?" i did so with the origins of astrology and humanistic astrology. while searching the web may not be as thorough or as reliable as books, it is much faster and usually just as reliable. if i had any wrong information, it is due to the abundance of misinformation that is out there, which i'm sure also appears in books. your version of the origins of astrology is very interesting, and while i am not entirely convinced of it, i will look into that version as well.

i would also like to point out that you could have just said, "see: daffy's_astrology_faq"
seeing as how it was written in november 2002, it is highly likely that many newer folk (myself included) have not read it and did not know of its existence. it's like trying to find a word in the dictionary using only its definition (and not even being sure that such a word exists). although possible, it's hardly practical. it's true that i was poking at you with the title of this blathe, but i was hoping for a response more similar to daffy's_astrology_faq, not knowing it already existed.

worry not, i will not continue to debate without reading:
daffy's_astrology_faq
daffy's_astrology_faq2
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Dafremen My FAQ is what I think of astrology and in fact, I've sort of altered my view on the direct planetary influence thing. Synchronicity jibes with my sense of incredulity that the weak magnetic fields of the planets could directly affect behavior here on Earth.(although it is STILL a distinct possibility...we need to set that aside and wait for the disproof or supporting data on that one.) The only way to learn about astrology is to get some books and start looking around.

We are taught by the empirical school, in which it seems we both cut our teeth, to focus on the differences, to focus on what distinguishes one sort of thing from another. Our immersion in a culture that places great value on individualism and which is rife with machiavellianism only serves to further ingrain this habit of searching out the differences in things.

Astrology is not a differences sort of observation. Everyone is different, the end result of a search for personality traits based on the differences only serves to confirm this fact. What astrology will ask of you is that you start noticing the similarities.

Look at this Taurus person, that Taurus person, the other. Besides the obvious things that all humans have in common, what do all of these Taurean people have in common? The more Taurus people you observe, question, talk to, the closer you get to understanding the ROOT of the Taurean influence. Now, what do Virgo, Taurus and Capricorn all share? When you begin to see it, that's what being born under the Earth element means. More (excuse the expression) down-to-earth, more discriminating sensory faculties, usually careful with money and practical.

Now compare those Taurus people to the Leos and Aquarians and Scorpio people out there. Then you will begin to see a picture take shape that is the essence of what it means to be a FIXED sign. Tendency to repeat the same comfortable patterns and habits. A stubborn streak. A knack for organizing priorities, data,items and ideas. Tending not to change opinions once an opinion has been formed, single-minded purpose in pursuit of a goal..etc.

Then go on. Move on. Compare the Taurean people you have observed to the Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Pisces people out there. A picture should begin to form the outline of the nature of Feminine signs. They are generally passive, wait for things to come to them, tend to be more pessimistic and negative, often more easily depressed.

These are just words. They mean NOTHING in the study of astrology. When I first set out to learn about this SCIENCE of probability and intuition, I bought a complete set of books at 15 bucks apiece. About 50 bucks in books. I had the information, now all I needed to do was absorb that, and I'd be educated on astrology! So I read. I memorized. It didn't click. I couldn't see it.

It wasn't until I started watching PEOPLE with this new found data, that the impact and meaning of that data began to sink in. It wasn't until I dropped ALL of my defenses based on nothing more than disbelief and paid attention to the world around me that I started to understand what the symbols mean. It took many months for me to understand in even a rudimentary way, what these symbols really represent.

I'm still learning. The picture is STILL coming into clearer focus and YES, I'm still on the look out for flash bang hocus pocus presti-menta-tation. I'm not in this to get fooled. I'm in this because if it's real...it could be the one best hope for helping the human race understand one another and learn to live together in at least a reasonable semblance of peace.

So, go study then. I'm glad you're not continuing the nitwittery, it does my heart good to know that there's another out there questing for the truth who is willing to drop the preconceptions long enough to search objectively for answers. Look at the people, find your conclusions in them. Not after one or two...do what I did, interview a couple hundred people. Take a friggin year for the investigation. IF this turns out to be real, what could be more useful to a (in all probability) fairly shy, not big into the social scene, Virgo guy like you? You WILL understand if you give it that investment. I can't guarantee it, but if we were at the track, I'd wager on that horse. Good luck.
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ferret i can't read... or write for that matter. so the entire half hour or so that i spent reading all this was wasted.... since i can't read of course... or write. personally, i liked daf's arguments better. 030821
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Dafremen P.S. WHO can't throw overhand? ; ) 030821
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endless desire i think virgo did have a point about your little faq deal. i was interested, too, but i didn't even know where to begin. really though, this whole page just looks like arrogant people trying to outdo everyone else in whits and knowledge. i think it's a waste of time, but have fun. meanwhile, i'll be learning because i think it's interesting, not because i want to argue with someone. 030821
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Dafremen And that sounds PERFECTLY reasonable to me. The fact that one cannot find an FAQ is hardly justification to create a blathe that is just a link to an article which calls astrology a bunch of hogwash, and THEN, title it mockingly after insights_into_humankind.

Sort of a blatant in-your-face sneer at astrology.

(You're right, the fact that the FAQ can't be found is a good point. That doesn't justify standing up in the middle of class and saying: "Those astrology people are idiots (in particular the guy who wrote those insights_into thingies) because they believe in something that I really don't know half as well as I think I do." )
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Dafremen Boy that was redundant. Typical. 030822
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virgo i've read your faqs, and find them to be an admirable start in delving into the topic, but it seems unfinished. the first section consists mainly of setting up the experiment/analysis, by disproving the disproofs. accepting these as given, we are still left with the task of proving it as true. the second section lays the foundation of astrology, explaining the sun sign, moon sign, & the ascending sign. so far, your faqs have not proven or disproven astrology. from what i gather of your responses, the proof must be collected on one's own. i came upon this same impasse with religion; that it is a personal experience, and it is not something that can be meaningfully communicated.

you've mentioned you had your own questionaire with questions that came out to as you expected 90% of the time. can you please give me more information on it? not really the results, but the questions, and their expected answers from different signs. i'd like to do my own poll. i know the saying, "there are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics" but i'd still like to compile & analyze my own results.

while i respect the great amount of work you've put into researching astrology, i've yet to find any information corroborating your theory on the origins of astrology. there seems to be a consensus that astrology started off as a predictive tool, and remained so until relatively recently, when the idea of free will became more predominant. astrology adapted to this way of thinking and became more of a self-awareness tool. this isn't just me speaking, everywhere i look about humanistic astrology seems to indicate influences from psychology, and jung in particular.

my references:
http://www.astrology.com/history.html
http://www.ihr-buch.de/english/astrology.html
http://marlenesniche.tripod.com/metaphysics/id16.html
http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/2002/astrology.htm
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T62
http://www.nickcampion.com/nc/history/origins.htm
http://www.byzant.com/astrology/history.asp
http://www.astro-noetics.com/faq_2.html
http://www.astrocollege.com/campus/dictionary.cgi?ACTION=SEARCH&TERM=Humanistic+Astrology
http://www.dreamanalysis.info/psychodynamicastrology.html
http://www.levante.org/Svarogich/English/Principia%20english/Part01.html
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Dafremen So, you figured that out did you?

(see also:
oldephebe_and_i_just_can't_believe )

I've read most of those articles. (If not the same ones, the same theories and supporting evidence.) There was something WRONG with the notion that early man had just casually tossed his survival to the side in order to engage in random guesswork..ie prediction.

Let's do this, if you're game. Think about that. Do what I did. Just think about what would make sense if you were an early human whose survival hung on a thread. Would you just suddenly look up to the stars and hope that they could answer your prayers?

I thought about it for 4 solid weeks during a period of unemployment.
If you would just give it a few days..you will find that the theory I present here lacks the flaws found in the commonly held notion that ancient man worshipped the stars because they were bright, shiny and in the sky. Ancient man had not the time, nor the margin of error to be wasting his efforts on something that had not proven its utility. The further back you go in time, the more primitive our technology, the truer this becomes.

Try it though. You're a smart guy.
Sit and THINK about why those people would do the silly, happy horse sh*t that our theories have them doing when their lives were so much more demanding, so much less forgiving of foolishness? We're the fools man, we got focused on the things that MAN created.

Look into it, though. Astrology is no religion. Astrology seeks no answers. It provides clues and asks you to worship no particular god to get them. Hell, the empirical method is more of a religion than astrology.

I CANNOT prove that astrology is real to you. Not even a scientist could do that. He could only convince you. You CAN however decide what you believe. That's the kind of search you're on if you really want this answer. YOU'VE gotta do the legwork for this one. And it doesn't involve data, it involves people. (Course it'll take data to get you there.) If you never mention signs or horoscopes or anything, people think its a friggin psychology survey. Most of em LOVE the attention and they love to tell people about themselves. (Most of them...) As you ask questions, focus on the DATA provided by astrology books. Things about money habits, likes dislikes, physical attributes, etc. Forget the astrologer's particular theory as to WHY at first, until you get a handle for how accurate that person's info is. I've given you two really good sources. It took me quite awhile to root out the crappy Sun sign astrology from the good, a gift to you. As question fail to beat the odds of coincidence or guesswork, remove them from your surveys. In the end you will be left with a set of traits that in all likelihood will be true of people who share Sun signs. It is at THAT point that you might get hooked and want to move on to learning more, because Sun signs aren't even the penguin feather on the tip of the iceberg. Astrology is huge and complex and it isn't absorbed through reading like other learning, but through connections with people and through comparisons against all of the people you have ever known. It is THAT sort of committment that earns the rewards of KNOWING what you believe, as opposed to just believing what you know.


P.S. Just wondering. Why would it have made any difference if you had found the theory elsewhere? Does it really take more than one mind subscribing to a theory for that theory to stand or fall in the face of logical, objective inquiry?
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neesh by daf's theory of the origins of astrology, do you mean the idea that it's not really related to stars but sections of the sky? (i've not really read the page) cos if it is, then daf's absolutely right. the sky was modelled as a circle, then split into the twelve houses of the zodiac, and these were each split into three (i don't know why, all mystic arts need threes, perhaps, or probably it has some significance to the accuracy of astrology if you include an assessment of whether the sign was rising or waning as they were born into it), and these segments of three were split into deciles, for further accuracy. that gives 12310 sections to a circle. and it's because of that that we have 360 in a circle. that's the best explanation i've heard, cos if you do maths, you'll see degrees are a quite useless unit of measurement in circles, and my maths teachers always thought 360 was an arbitrary assignation. the sections created were then named by which constellations were seen in them, but it's not the constellations, it's the section of the sky that is significant.

my source of information is "The Book of Thoth" by Aleister Crowley
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oldephebe Ok that was deep
and yet refreshingly revelatory

hope you will post more on astrology
I like the way you break everything down for the neophyte

anyway since daf is leaving we'll need someone to read the skies for us, wait read the skies is not an accurate encapsulation of astrology - well we'll need someone to share their insight with blather -

later,
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neesh i just read that again, and i hadn't known blather doesn't understand multiplication and degree signs. oh well. thanks, oldephebe, but i'm not really an astrologer, i read cards. 030823
what's it to you?
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