faith_vs_reason mockingbird http://hypermetrics.com/personal/frd.html brought up many things I hadn't thought of before I may have to seriously reconsider my atheism, and see what conclusion I come to. I just realised the reason I lost my faith in Christianity several years ago is because it was naive faith, and that perhaps if others have gone through the same process it's worth looking into. Perhaps I'll not change my opinion but I think the fact that I'm afraid of coming to the conclusion that it could be true is interesting mulls 051223 ... unhinged the fallacy of reason: are you any happier with reason and without faith? i would be willing to bet no. some kind of faith in something is integral to happiness. 051223 ... Zeiga Faith wins over reason in my heart. 090707 ... unhinged faith_is_my_middle_name 090708 ... ergo I wrestle with doubt and faith, they are the two legs I stand on. 090708 ... Lemon_Soda Can one have faith in reason? 090709 ... amy nada the_Enlightenment. I personally find a purer faith in just faith. saw Angels_and_Demons last night. science might be more faith than reason these days. some people (feminists) that I've studied have a problem with that. Catholic things make me cry sometimes. I'm a back-and-forther for sure. 090709 ... unhinged i still maintain that faith is the only thing that separates humans from other primates. i also maintain that the cult of reason has failed us. the world is in shambles these days because we have relied on only what could be proven by science and reason for so long that we've forgotten the wisdom that comes from a well cultivated heart. my favorite example of the stupidity of science is that they had to enact a study to tell us that hugs and affection are good for us. that we need scientists in a lab running tests to determine that hugs make you feel better. that a mother's touch calms a colicky baby. that stress is bad for us. and then people bitch about the high cost of health care, but i digress. help restore faith in basic human goodness cultivate_compassion 090709 ... danny you use "stupidity" and "cultivate compassion" so close together. the problem is not science or reason. it is misuse of. careful measured thought, observation, critical analyis to check whether what you believe is sound is part of faith, religious or otherwise, as well as part of science. faith can mislead with its fears and wishes as much as science can. trust and assuring self of readiness for peace or armageddon is part of both. fear makes us forget everything but fear. it calls up anger and our mastery of simple truths like trust is good, touch is good, empathy is good, hurting others neglectfully is bad, making needless damage is bad. whatever faith or reason will point us back to ourselves in this is good. 090710 ... unhinged faith that misleads is not really faith at all it is just as erroneous as the science that is funded by pharmaceutical companies that proves their medicine is exactly what you need. there are plenty of shams in the world. the cult of science is one of them. blind faith and blind reason are equally as bad. 090710 ... unhinged (the buddha said 'do not believe what i tell you because i say it. believe it because you have gone out into the world and see it as truth for yourself' sic ) 090710 ... ephemeralarcs All faith is misleading, is faith perfect? no? then how can it ever not be misleading at least to some degree? reason is not perfect either, even perfect reason. It lacks perceivability into fickleness, the human heart. i try to figure out love with reason when i should try to figure it out with my human heart. 090711 ... unhinged faith is not misleading; but what you put your faith in may be. 090711 ... hsg " the heart is the center of the mind; the mind is the surface of the heart. " z en d t he art ripall soulsadventure into many of view pointing its way back to the source. returned through reason, expanding through spirit. 090711 ... unhinged faith tempered by reason (i suppose that's why buddhism has always appealed to me; the buddha put the scientific method to work in religion before there even was a scientific method) 110103 ... unhinged http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening 110707 ... IGG am i happier without faith? the world is not the same comfortable, safe place it seemed to be when i was a child. faith and religion can sometimes motivate people to do great things, that's undeniable. but how many wars have been fought in the name of religion? how many greedy institutions have exploited geniune believers for personal and monetary gain? it is easy to deny responsibility when hiding behind the shield of 'faith', as it must be "God's plan" or "fated" or the like. an often quoted saying is that for evil to succeed, all that is needed is for good people to stand by and do nothing. ignoring the absoluteness of the terms 'good' and 'evil', there is a valuable insight to be gained from this; people will stand by and avoid responsibility for atrocities for faith in some cause. reason therefore is something we should try to apply in all aspects of our actions. unhinged, you said let's "help restore faith in basic human goodness cultivate_compassion" - this is a positive statement, which i have no problem with. however people don't need to be religious or faithful to achieve this. morality and religion/faith are not the same thing. to be honest i think i would be happier knowing that someone genuinely helped out of kindness to another person than by some religious decree that you 'should' help another person in need - that can come from a sense of duty rather than any true empathy or sympathy. although it can be argued that compassion is good whatever the motivation. "faith that misleads us is not really faith at all" is also true. but how do you know what faith is not misleading? there are positive tenets to hold to, such as kindness, generosity, sharing, and the search for improvement of humankind. these i think are mostly universal goals across a variety of faiths and religions. it is when the truly restrictive aspects of these faiths rear their heads that i think we would be better off without such ways of thinking. many religions are antifeminist, homophobic, racist and hold generally bizarre customs for the present day. these aspects are not helpful for personal growth or for a global future growth. they cause anxiety, guilt, crime and prejudice. this i could write a whole essay on but i will keep it brief for this post. the positive aspects of faith can be achieved without holding a belief that there is a deity watching us and basing our own judgement on our actions with the threat of punishment if we do not behave appropriately. i hope that we grow enough as a species in our thinking that we don't need the threat to make us want to do good things, only that we can respect one another and have shared future goals. that is for the future though. it is true there are shams on both sides of the field, with greedy and immoral parties such as pharmaceutical companies and other capitalist organisations using 'scientific' results to persuade you to part with your hard-earned pieces of paper. however the catholic church among many, many others use emotional blackmail on people to get them to behave in accordance with 'rules' written down by people long dead and giving them an unhealthy dose of guilt to make them into 'good' catholics. scientology is a cult. science is not. gaining proof is not a terrible thing - how can we ever learn and grow if we don't have the building blocks? we need to combine the optimism of faith with the concrete nature of science to get where we need to go. we don't need to keep the comfort blanket of having someone watching over us, like a loving parent who will discipline us when we misbehave but ultimately will keep us safe. it's sad to lose that, yes, but like all children, we must leave that safety and make our own way in the world. reason is not an ugly word here, it is a way to stop retracing our war-bloodied and weary old steps and to form fresh tracks into new thinking and therefore development. 120115 ... dafremen What a discussion to be having. And how did it get so off-topic? (blather_is_blather. Oh yea.) So the title says faith_vs_reason, but in the end, it once again degenerates into a discussion of the pros vs the cons of institutionalized_religion and the_scientific_establishment. Institutionalized religion has little or nothing to do with faith and the scientific establishment these days has VERY little to do with reason, if it ever did. Religious institutions are constructs of men, built around a combination of their beliefs, their personal motives, the regional norms and the issues of the time among others. Faith is an individual and personal surrendering to that which is not known..perhaps cannot be known, and according to some..can only be known after you've surrendered. Likewise, there is little reason to be found in the bulk of the scientific establishment's actions, policies and behaviors throughout history. There is little difference between the clergyman who seeks to impress others with his piety, and the scientist who seeks to impress others with his knowledge of the field. And just as a priest may appear one day to perform some token act of charity where it may or may not be needed, but where the photo op is best, so too do scientists research subjects that are irrelevant, simply to prove that they can discover something new. Whether the new discovery is necessary, beneficial or potentially harmful is irrelevant. What matters is the paper. What matters is the funding. What matters is the respect and admiration of peers. So where's the reason? There is little or no reason in trying to discover something for no purpose other than to keep yourself in a job..and because no one has done it before. So that covers most of them; most of priests of prominence, and most of the scientists of prominence. They reached whatever degree of prominence by seeking after those things in that way. Faith is of little import to the church except as a tool of manipulation, and ultimately, reason is subservient to external forces in the lab. And then..there are the unsung priests, rabbis, clerics, pastors and preachers of the world who give and give and give...of their time and their toil, of their love and their compassion. There are the unknown scientists toiling away within the establishment on reasonable projects with reasonable budgets and reasonable expectations of a beneficial outcome for humanity. In the end, none of their acts of faith can prove or disprove God to anyone. None of those applications of empirical reason can prove Truth in any but a shallow, cursory, materialistic manner. Because only a minute fraction of Truth is of a material nature. The human experience ALONE should be evidence of that. Consensual reality is a myth. So is a consensual God. Truth doesn't require consensus or defense. There is little difference between the followers/advocates either: A student of science is just as likely to take a book's word for Truth as a peasant in a pew. And he'll act on that faith, blindly..to the point of excommunicating Galileo for seeing. And the zealots will follow their religious leaders just as blindly..to the point of crucifying a humble carpenter's son for speaking. There is little difference between a pack of scientists assuring each other that God is bullshit. And a pack of Christians assuring each other that Muslims deserve to die. God is dead, Muslims are dead. Which is less important? Which is more so? Which is more devastating to the human race? Which is less so? Faith is not a noun, regardless of what the dictionary says. Neither is reason in this context. 120115 ... dafremen One tends to wonder how creatures possessed of such great reasoning faculties, can in one moment carefully pick the smallest hair from our food before putting it into our mouths, and in the next, sit down in front of a television set and allow strangers to indiscriminately shovel shit into our brains. Is this an act of faith? Or an act of reason? Perhaps it is neither. Faith knows its direction if not its purpose. But this act of self destruction comes from not feeling a pull in any direction at all. We simply did not know what else to do with ourselves. Certainly the logic of it points out how truly unreasonable we are..the vast majority of us..the vast majority of the time. Which is more dangerous a small hair in our stomachs? Or a large wad of falsehoods, misinformation, conditioning and fear placed into our minds? Know of any priests that pick hairs from their food and watch T.V.? Know of any scientists that do? Presidents? Kings? The leaders of an irrational people tend to be as irrational in the same ways, on a grander scale. The world is filled to the brim with these irrational, unreasonable acts committed by people who consider themselves "thinking people"..reasonable people..logical people. Let's not talk about what we know. Chances are, if we figure out how it is that we "know", we won't have anything at all to say. Not about our reasons for faith. Not about our faith in reason. What reason do we truly have to trust in, that hasn't proven itself unreasonable and unreliable? Anger is not reason. Greed is not reason. Insults are not reason. Arrogance is not reason. Intellect is not reason. What faith have we given ourselves over to that was truly faith? Conditioning is not faith. Fear is not faith. Habit is not faith. (Although faith can certainly become habit.) Desire is not faith. Circumstances are not faith. Until we begin to examine ourselves objectively for answers, rather than searching under every rock, ocean and behind every star, there can be no reason to the things we do or the "facts" we discover. Faith, I suppose, has always been our first step. Faith in our ability to reason. Faith in our conditioning and the belief systems we've been injected with. Faith in our fellow man. Faith that there is an answer to be found. 120115 what's it to you? who go blather from