consensual_reality
Lemon_Soda The theory of consensual reality states that all things considered tangible or in existence are only given this state by the mutual agreement of all partys concerned. Each human mind is capable through the excepted five senses to percieve and intake information from it's environment. This information is based on one of two sources. That which is directly percievable by the mind, and that which is described by another mind. This information, despite the source, works to define the laws of a given minds understanding of reality. Based on these experiences each mind on an individual basis is capable of solidifying and "understanding" the existence it is within. Given that reality is defined by what is percieved, and that no two minds percieve the same experience exactly the same, it follows that every mind is in fact existing within its own reality. Our minds decide how the information we recieve is to be interpreted. This would suggest that utter chaos has riegn over us because no two realities are the same. Perceptual reality alteration, or to will a thing into being, is the only tool that a mind has to attempt to enforce structure. Our current reality, or atleast the one we all except as real, is infact a mass hallucination, for lack of a better word. To truly enforce reality, more than one point of reference is necessary. A thing does not exist in this reality unless two or more minds agree that it is there. In order to change, the world requires the "existence support" of more and more poeple to reinforce the "dreamed" reality of the instigator. To this end, all things "real" were first dreams. One person invented the wheel. Everyone else thought it was a nifty idea, so they excepted it and made wheels to. Your reality is rational to you, but irrational to everyone else. The only way for any meanigful interaction between "dreams" is when they are mutually consented to universal laws. The first of these is Pupose. Though it does not exist, the human mind upon first gaining sentience required reason for it to do so in the first place. With out Purpose, the mind would have no choice but to return to chaos. The second universal law is End. Transition makes way for the fulfillment of Purpose and the garnering of new Purpose. The third universal law is Creation. It was pointless to have Purpose and End without any experience. No advancement could be made towards Purpose with nothing to work with. All minds began taking the chaos of their own perception and began weaving thoughts and mutually consenting on which thoughts should exist. Essentially telling their own dreams "yes" or "no". This in turn caused an infinite number of realities to burst into being. Realities are capable of being shared, and so, to experience all that is all a mind had to do was except the existence of others. Realities were created and all were believed to be real. However, to know all there is to know in the whole of realities is a state of fulfillment, not Purpose. Nothing could be attained because everything is already known. This led to the creation of the fourth and fifth universal laws: Ignorance and the Begining. Ignorance is required to allow advancement. By agreeing to pretend they did not know what they knew, minds were capable of making discoveries in the worlds they themselves created. However, all minds could not start at different points or the excepted reality would devolve into chaos once more. So, a mutual point of reference is designated. A reality that every mind under the influence of its own ban of knowledge could start from scratch and slowly open all the doors that were willfully closed. All minds agree on this "mutual reality" and that is were we find ourselves. The Begining. You still live within your own reality, but because the rules have been enforced by those who came before, your reality is intrinsically based on the version they leave behind. We are as a specie more than capable of "willing" any reality into physical form. You can hold up your hand and see in your mind's eye a flame, dancing on your palm and it is there, though no other mind present may consent to this. You cannot see this flame with your eyes for your eyes are a part of your body which is a vessal prepared and enforced by "mutual reality". You cannot see it take form because no other mind believes it can happen in their state of ignorance. Think on the terms "law""order" and "advancement". The mind is limitless. Yet we limit it with order. Points of reference, rules and words we all can turn to as a basis to work from. You communicate by talking. The words meanings are formed by its route definition, it's "mutually consented meaning". Gravity, pain, Heat, Cold, Tangible material, both natural and synthetic. All are aspects of order. Bound by the definitions that define them. Laws are in place because even in the ignorant state the minds know rules are required. Those laws are used to uphold societal standards of thought that directly reflects the idealized "reality" we wish to live. Advancement is the action in which purpose is fulfilled. No purpose is fulfilled simply by being. Despite the futility of the reality we have chosen, we are incapable of excepting a state of conciousness that doesn't have a point or reason. Each of us has our own reality, the more we percieve it to be correct the more we wish to influence the minds about us to agree for with agreement comes confirmation of existence("Did you see that?!?"). However, this is indeed a futile cause because all minds are pursuing this goal:complete exceptence of personnal reality by the whole of the minds. If all minds seek to be the "correct reality" than no mind may fully agree with another on the basis that all percieved realities are experienced and interpretted differently. Hence an eternal state of progression that all minds may mutually exist within. A "Consensual Reality".

Unlocked Knowledges
1. We do not exist in the same reality as each other, we simply agree that we do.

2.We are only limited by the rules and laws we agree to follow.

3.We are capable of percieving anything as real, and in doing this,it is.

4.We know all things but for the sake of purpose choose not to recognize this information for what it is.

5. We innately follow the five universal laws:Purpose, End, Creation, Ignorance, and Begining.

6. Reality is the consequence of saying "yes" or "no" to "dreams".
031006
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misstree lemon_soda, will you marry me?

i'll have more of substance to add later, but i need to refrain from breaking my brain just yet so that i can have it broken by others tonite. :P

meantime, one of my flavorite tim leary quotes: "'reality' is the only word in the english language that should always be used in quotes."

robert_anton_wilson also took this ball and ran with it, coming to some blindingly complex and slippery conclusions (along with a lion's share of blindingly obvious but never really stated, and very intuitive but supressed, conclusions). reality is your playground, so hop on the swings and start pumping, and trust me, you *can* flip that swing over (but make sure you've got a good grip, or you'll give yourself a concoction.)
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book of eris noted. 031006
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mon wonderful 031006
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lc A lot of really interesting stuff in there Lemon. But I have to disagree with you on a single grand purpose. Perhaps knowing everything is the end purpose of your reality, me I'd settle for next week's lottery numbers in advance.

I think the struggle for purpose; the very thing that gives us the strength to deal with all the crap life sends our way, is very much tied to the individual. The way we interpret the world around us is based on what we perceive our purpose to be. If I thought my purpose was to gain admission to a heaven like afterlife, I would view the world in the context of what was required of me to reach my goal. And hopefully I would act upon those beliefs in whatever way I saw appropriate. Love my neighbor, give puppies to orphans, whatever it takes.

I am sure there are people out there who are in search of knowledge for itís own sake. But I doubt very much that such a narrow definition can be attributed to everyone.

Of course I just woke up, so I may change my mind after some coffee.
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Lemon_Soda heh.

First off I'm glad you choose to post. Thank you for your words.

Please allow me to correct a meaning you seem to have gleened.

Knowing everything is not the single grand purpose of my reality. Should you choose to reread my piece you'll note that there IS no purpose, just the ones we make for ourselves(hence your understanding of the individuality of purpose creation). Purpose was the universal law we as sentient minds chose to inflict so that we would not devolve into chaos. Purpose is, infact, the biggest cosmic sham of them all. Should any individual actually attain the willpower to unlock the doors to the knowledge of everything, their sentience would be in a state of fulfillment(sp?). Fulfillment denies purpose.

Your entire second pararaph almost completely agrees with my theory. We are in charge of our own realities and assign ourselves what we believe is a purpose. Say I believe my purpose is to hold a ruler over the highway for three days straight. I do this, my "purpose" is fulfilled. If I truly fulfilled my purpose I would nolonger have a reason to live. My goal is achieved. Its fulfillment leads to the universal law of End. With End I leave the old purpose of my choosing behind, after its fulfillment, and choose another one. As stated earlier, should I feel my purpose has been fulfilled I have no reason to continue. But this in it self is a difficult state to come to. Everyone has more than one thing their aiming for, and even if they did not the vessal(human body) imposed on us by the laws of consensual reality has built in purposes:food,breath, sex and so on. Our realities were intertwined this way for a reason. So that we WOULDN'T cease to exist.

Our entire existence is dependent on NOT knowing everything. Purpose is just the reasons we make up to continue existing.
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LC Hrmm. Well I sometmes get conversations and readings mixed up, thoughts bouncing around in a random fasion. I will however in a streak of preversity stil to my postulation and insist that I know what you meant no matter how hard you try to argue the point. I am right. I must be right.

Ok, maybe not. But in being wrong (or at least mistaken)I will find a way to wiggle into the light of reason. Or at least an attempt to distract while I make for the nearest exit
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Lemon_Soda LC,

You rock.
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realistic optimist first off, i would like to say that i really enjoyed reading your theory lemon soda. and bouncing it around in my brain. it is very tightly drawn and stays true to itself. i am curious to know some of your influences.

secondly, i would like to know your thoughts on the theory of evolution and the big bang, and what of those poor souls who are in comas, or have had brain trauma, and are not conscious?
and what of time?

thirdly, i'd like to grin in your general direction. provocative stuff, [insert gender specific term here]
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sans nom sir_real
i have it from a close source that it is indeed possible for someone who is in a coma to be aware of the things happening around them, if not more so aware in some ways.
it is amazing what i have heard.
sorry i can't elaborate, but then again you were talking to lemon_soda and i was just cutting in so, ...


saunters off
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realistic optimist good point, sans nom.
i wasn't thinking enough when i asked these questions, which was partly why i was asking questions instead of blathing. i am letting lem's words stew a bit before i blah blah it up.
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Lemon_Soda Realistic Optimist,

Thanks for the grin, very much appreciated.

Some of my influences? Thats hard to say. i don't remember anything really tipping it off. I just sat down and tried very hard to figure out what would make the most sense using what I had experienced to date. The theory kind of leapt out of me. I'm sure I've read things, talked to people, seen stuff, etc that influenced it, but I'm havin' a hard time pinnin' it down. If credit were to go to anything or anyone I'd have to lay it at the feet of my friends, who unlike the rest of the consensual reality, encouraged me to live in my OWN world and share it with them as they do with me.

As for your other wonderings, a few brief snippets, since I could go on longer than a person should on any of them.

Big Bang: My theory would support this claim if the bang was sentience, not matter. As for the people who follow this theory, hey, that's their reality.

Evolution: Just as dreams shift and change, I can only assume that this effect would spill over into the things we've created as a whole. Sure I believe in evolution, but for entirely different reasons than your normal practitioner. The slow change over thousands of thousands of years is really the only consensual effect everyone is willing to except, and even then, alot of people don't, which is why it takes so long for us to dream new animals(or animal parts, as the case may be.)

Comas and such: These people have left, by force or personnal choice, the consensual reality(maybe even their vessal(body)) to live completely in their own reality. Sometimes they come back. Sometimes they don't.

Time: Just another rule we made up when we were puttin' it all together. I think it popped out about the same time as Ignorance, but it may have walked in late with Begining. I need to think about it more.

That's all I got, for now.
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Lemon_Soda Perpetuation of the Consensual reality.

The rules and regulations of the consensual reality are instigated on an individual level and then codified into reality by the exceptance of its existence by an additional mind or more. With a second mind behind the idea a point of reference is established in sentience. The more minds that except this point, the more defined it will be. Anything must start with two sides(points)but may attain more sides(points) that make it that much more real. Once the majority of an area has excepted it, the point becomes real. Gravity is a good example of a world wide consensual rule. Everyone expects/excepts(notice how close those two come in spelling?) that they are earthbound, whatever they may call it. This both advantageous and dangerous. The advantage is that there is another rule we can count on as being present will always be, and we may reference it when attempting to establish a new piece of reality based on it. I can't really paint a painting if I don't believe in the concept of paint. Also, it would really ruin my day if I woke up on the cieling and all my stuff had fallen up there to. it is dangerous, however, because its cementing in reality becomes another limitation set in the Begining times of minds to come. having to deal with it since conciesness, a mind is not fully free to develop a personnal reality w/out this rule.

Defenses Against Imposed Consensual Reality

Time: though a rule in it self, Time allows through the power of End for all other rules to eventually change or be dropped all together. Liken it to rules set for a game, but overtime these rules change to suit the players and the reality upholding.(don't believe me? Wait till they start playing football on the moon)Eventually, Time will cause the rule to fade entirely. This is also a one of th emany ways people remove experiences from their personal realitys.(It'll be alright, man, just give it some time. you'll forget about her.)

Shielding: If raised in the proximity of minds that donot except or are not aware of a consensual rule, the mind wrought here is free from the constraints of such. Tax laws are a very real thing to alaskan citizens, but to the aboriginies in australia, they don't even exist.

Disregard: The most commonly invoked defense. you are, ofcourse, only limited by the rules you choose to except. if you are incapable of ignoring a rule, than you are literally incapable of breaking it intentionally. Take unspoken social rules, for example. Even though I want to, I can't just get up and leave in the middle of a proffesor's lecture.

Lexicon part 1

Soft Reality: Personal reality. Defined by the personal experiences and mental reactions to such. Malleable by self or by others. Completely contained in a single mind.

Hard Reality: The excepted reality we all share. malleable by mass mutual exceptance.

Virus:An alien concept or experience so removed from a given minds reality that when injected by communication or experience it becomes the focul point of that universe, steering the soft reality to focus on it as its new point of reference. Obsession. Virrulent Virus' are ones that specifically invoke mental occupancy on a previously realized than disregarded experience or rule.

Scry: To focus the intake of ones personnal reality on anothers, allowing the viewer to garner some of the rules that define the subjects reality.

Reality Mock: to give off the appearance of following the rules of a portion of anothers reality in order to further ingratiate the subjects reality to ones own.

Laying Bricks: actively working to reinforce and advance Hard reality by supporting its rules. Most Government jobs fit here.
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Lemon_Soda CR Lexicon:
Brain damage: Corroded ability to manipulate personal existence due to outside influence. Most often caused by physical damage to the hard reality vessel.
031020
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Lemon_Soda see universe 031020
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nom is taking notes 031021
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marked . 031021
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Lemon_Soda check out misstree's entry in:

virii_or_edifice
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spelling fuhrer excepts is spelled accepts 031021
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Death of a Rose consensual.....hmmm....con - sensual

like doing a reach around while grabbing onto the bars of your cell....hmmm....

wouldn't like that reality


(ps. to lemon......keep going man)
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Lemon_Soda In my reality its spelled excepts. 031022
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minnesota_chris consensual_reality?

Black people do not become animals, no matter how many racists agree on it.

If everybody followed consensual reality, we would never have gone to the moon.
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misstree it's funny hearing an old fatass in a diaper (no offense intended) say that reality is not mutable by opinoin. in the minds of racists, blacks are animals. maybe giraffes, maybe coyotes; dunno, never asked a racist about it. changing personal reality takes literally just a thought; changing shared reality requires consensus. if two racists get together and agree that black people are all owls, in their shared reality, this is true. if they are truly convinced of this, if a black man happens to enter their reality, he will appear to them to be an owl, whereas to him, as he is outside *their* shared reality, everyone will still be just humans.

the larger bits of shared reality, or hard reality as soda aptly termed it, are a bit more difficult to change, as people's ideas about how things are supposed to work are set pretty deep. *you* try getting gravity to lighten up for a little bit. even all by your lonesome where other people's perceptions have nothing to do with it, your own conviction that gravity is an immutable force makes it so. the more soft realities (personal realities) are offended by an "illogical" change in the hard reality, the more difficult making that change will be.

and to the moon? how many generations grew up believing it was not possible? all it took was the proper people deciding that it was, and going about making the changes in hard reality to bring it about (building machines can be an excellent ritual for changing hard reality, and inventions expand our abilities in leaps and bounds). until they decided that it was possible, it wasn't.

and again a nod to lemon_soda for infecting me with useful lexicon bits, and apologies for jumping in on this one.
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Lemon_Soda Well spoke, misstree.

All opinions are welcome here.
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misstree opinoins too? 031023
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Lemon_Soda Just a quick note on hard reality...

This is what we've decided to share with each other. This is what WE decided needed to be here. This is what WE all support and this is what WE want. Not "I" or "me" or "myself" or "you" or "him" or "her" or anybody on an individual level. WE. W...E...WE.

Look at the world WE have made.

and yes, opinoins are welcome to, as long as they're house broken.
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Lemon_Soda Black Hole: A person whose personal reality has been quashed by hard reality experience and now believes that hard reality is the only one that exists. Black holes place high value on money, have a distinct dislike of emotional attachment and have a hard time expressing themselves. Terminally pessimistic. Believes unspoken rules govern what a person is and is not allowed to say or do. Describes the world as uncaring and cruel and becomes so themselves in time. Does not understand and often shows hostility towards any decision not based in Hard Reality. Gets caught in "comfort zones" of routine and ceases to find new experiences instead relying on activities that are "proven" to make them happy. Incapable of giving a compliment or recognizing a good facet of another being unless "unsaid" rules demand it. Believes people are formulaic and may be treated as such. Master arguers. Thinks traditonal practices of recompanse may cause any negative experience to be erased(brings flowers to the girl he smacked yesturday, gives money to the nephew he chewed out on a regular basis. etc.) Easily offended. Easily offensive. Often seems to "suck" any positivity from the people around him/her. Incapable of coming up with a concept or idea outside of the established medium. Usually quite clever in the manipulation of "the system" and has a good understanding of how it affects their "social status". Incredibly talented at recognizing inconsistencies with hard reality in peoples actions and quick to point out this short coming to others. Uses deception excessively as a tool. Will not alter life beyond what is necisary to survive comfortably. Often slave to vices, a "proven" and accepted form of "happiness". Considered anathema to free thinkers, artists, consensual realitists, discordians, and so on. 031024
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minnesota_chris well sorry to piss on your philosophical parade. I just thought that your ideas eliminated the possibility for dreams, and for silliness, both of which I think you believe in.

ack dangled participle
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Lemon_Soda Dreams are the very stuff of my reality, Minnisota Chris. Without dreams I would have no choice but to conform to Hard Reality. They allow me to shape my world as I see fit and I have witnessed miracles every day thanks to them.

As for silliness, I quite often express myself in non-standard forms of communication and at the behest of a wim or feeling of appropraiteness(sp?). One of the core concepts of consensual reality is to embrace your own oddities and share them with others.

Thinking we could go to the moon was originally someone's dream and silliness to everyone else.
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Lemon_Soda Originally posted elsewhere by myself.

Dreams.

Dream.


The substance of reality. The stuffs that make our world the way that it is. The concepts, the joys, the loves and the sorrows. That swirling mass of color or the mists that give shape but no form. The shadows we weave into the tangible. The building blocks of us. The something that tells us somebody. Infinity in our heads limited only by our own convitctions and fears.

I am a dreamer.
I am a king.
I am a child of a god.

As we will it, so it shall be. As we dream it, so shall it be. As we build it, so shall it be. Founts of desire and pits of despair. Thresholds are created and walked and sometimes dwelt within forever. We press our hand on the wall and feel its deceptively smooth, orderly cold surface. We look at its all-grey, the boundaries that came before. We walk along it, forever looking for a door. But some, not most, but some simply close their eyes and walk through. The other side watrms them and they open their eyes again. Amidst the swirling color and formlessness of their own heart they grasp the shadow stuffs of dreams and in an instant a world is born.

We are dreamers.
We are kings and Queens.
We are the children of a god.

That spark of divinity is in you. It embers and sparks.

Will you feed it?

Or allow it sputter and die?

Dream.
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Lemon_Soda Advice: Do not imagine what you do not want. The more you do so the more real it becomes. If, however, you get stuck with it, imagine a way out.

"Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."
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Lemon_Soda Do they say post or poost in Canada? 031029
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monadh what a funny question
do you mean post as in fence, mail, after, notify etc.
poest
trying to figure out what poost is
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nom or do you mean 'cause we talk funny?

talks funny and can prove it
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nom talks lovely, imo 031030
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? what_in_the_bajeezbers 031030
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notme or is post some awesome term i'm unfamiliar with? 031101
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krazy objective relativism?

my philosophy is a combination of subjective relativism and karma

"do you whatever the hell you want, you'll get paid or pay for whatever it is you do."
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Lemon_Soda Dangerous thing letting your subconcious punsih you, but hey, we really can't avoid it, can we? 031105
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still marked 031203
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oldephebe Black Hole = Socratic mode of sophistry..the dialectic of disingenuous deconstruction that succeeds only by averting the eyes of the interlocutor from the thrust of the argument towards an obfuscation that masquerades as reasoning that the Black Hole has so cunningly cultivated..
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can't believe i missed this page..nice one LS, mtree, Mchris, RO et al..
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oldephebe ..waiting for sam vaikin to opine eruditely.. 031203
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Lemon_Soda I can't put thoughts to paper. I ned a point of focus but I can't seem to find one. Am I really here? I see young people as old and old people as young. Contrast is difficult to apply to non standard concepts. Concepts are the basis of communication for me and mine. it seems easier to invoke a positive response when a series of words are chsen for their ability to call forth certain emotions mix them togther to transfer the gist of a given ejacualtion of information appropriatly. Descriptions must go right to the edge of clearly stating what is thought of, but without actually naming the target thought. Ones emotions mixed with thoughts help establish correctly chosen terms of interaction.

Seems the static route definiton of any given word(label) is slightly altered by the experiences that are associated in the mind with it. We communicate best without definitions. obscure, emotive verbatum is more meaningful without the extreme risk of insult. A wao of coaching others thought patterns to an indicated meaning. But allows them to come to ther own coclusion in a similar ending thought as first stated by the source. We are meant to be creatures of emotion and sensation. Whereas the orderly course lays down absolutes, the chaot understands that no such definitons can recompense or ever completely explain the whole of things. Seemingly reidiculous statements with no bearing, purpose, or proof beyond the present set of coincidences is theoretically as absolute as excepted definiton. Take no serious thing seriosly, disregard no ridiculous thing as trivial. To wil the human mind into a state of ordered chaos, one begins by applying all the wrong definitons, however inapproriate or slang based, to every word uttered by others. Next, be able to correctly lead others thoughts with words imlied to mean their non-standard definition, also known as a the feeling one gets around and during said words existence as a concept manifest. A note to serious practitioner all of me and mine use gesture and tone of voice more so than the words themselves to convey a concept. To master your eality and how it is percieved by both yourself and others you must exude and include every aspect of the desired concept. The ability to cause others to believe a thing as true is a simple matter of controlled imput or more commonly reffered to as deceptive manipulation. Theirs is the lower path. The ability to become what your need to be when you need to be it is based on your view of yourself, and its manipulation is the higher path because what you espouse is not only beleived, it is also true. You consistently define your existence every breath you take and inbetween. Other people may only attempt to influence you.
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see sane 040311
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z most of what i do here is about this subject. 040311
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User24 would it be fair to say that in essence, what you're saying is that if we can dream it, we can make it? 040312
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zeke 24: i think that take is too goal oriented. inside your world is my world as a subset that is abstracted to a degree that allows you to manage the differences. you cherry pick the portions of my reality (read as world view) that synch with aspects of the universe you have constructed. you reject the rest as meaningless and therefore relegated to the area that you reserve for untruth or the product of irrational and faulty perception and reasoning.

i am concurrently doing the same, with just as much conviction that the universe is as i perceive it. the overlapping subset in our shared experience that we call truth is our consensual reality. it is the logical product of imperfect perceptual and cognitive systems that can not ever deliver completely matching results.

i believe that most art comes from the awareness that there is a plastic topology to this boundry between self and other or self and universe. we stain it with aesthetic dye to study its form, function and dynamic nature.

see:

aesthete

constant_see_and_change

subsume

identity

art
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User24 I think I see.

Regarding evolution,

We only arrived at our current physical state (homo sapien) as a result of evolution. We are a creation of evolution.

Therefore evolution happened only because it's creation (us) accepted that as a possibility? Is that paradoxical, or is linear time a human construct as well (if so, why shouldn't we sprirt ourselves into existance once we already exist..)?

I don't know if I agree with you, lemon. I certainly agree that my reality, while sharing aspects of your reality, does not equal, or perhaps even approximate your reality. And I agree that the mind is limitless, but I do not see why the physical restrictions (Order) should have been created by our minds; Why are they neccessary?

Do you have any speculation on absolute truths? Is anything truly physical, etc?

Thanks,
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u24 PS: I may take a -very- long time to respond to your repsonse, please be patient. email jsvlrt@yahoo.com if it stretches past christmas. :-) 040706
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u24 post-post-script: thanks, zeke, that cleared it up quite well (unless i'm muchly mistaken) 040706
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z you are welcome. 040706
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u24 also, lemon_soda, when you say reality, do you mean actual reality, or our perception of it? (if there is a disticntion...) 040707
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Lemon_Soda Just reality. That really is as specfic as I could make it. Mines based on my perceptions, if that helps at all. As for the need for physical existence, well, I believe its the "side effect" or "residue" of those overlapping parts of various realities that happened to agree on something. 041116
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REAListic optimIST if you get shot in the back of your head without knowing it, you are still likely to die. however, there is definitely something to a person's ability to ignore pain, to heal themselves, and to sense danger and change course or alter plans. therefore, there is still a fuzzy boundary between reality which gets imposed onto a person, and the reality eminating from a person. exploring that boundary is quite interesting, and imo most theories don't give enough credence to the power of the mind. your theory holds more water than most in my reality. thanks again for sharing it, L_S 050618
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REAListic optimIST don't forget:
be_here_now
thou_art_god
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. . 051027
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IGG i don't consent

stop raping me with your harsh reality.
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-_-_-_-_-_-_-0_0-_-_-_-_-_-_- So lets discuss how to change one's reality...How to honestly be happy as opposed to being tired and bitter. I would assume that it has some sort of connection to Cooley's theory of looking glass self.

I'd believe faith to also be one of the key factors. (You have to fully believe that you're happy to be happy)
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z i have always felt that seeking happiness defines one as unhappy. 060629
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Pto As such, is someone who seeks unhappiness presently happy? 060629
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Lemon_Soda I normally don't like to quote christian references, but I think this one holds true: You'll get what your looking for.


If your unhappy its because you think you should be and vice versa. Remember that your brain is a muscle too, and can be trained reptitively just like any other part of your body.
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z who can be said to seek unhappiness? 060629
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cranky old bird i don't buy that.

When i was unhappy it wasn't because i felt like i deserved it, subconsciously or otherwise -- although i reached a point where i felts so degraded and devalued that i was starting to feel like maybe that was true.

I was unhappy because of a lot of wasted and misplaced beliefs that kept blowing up in my face just when i started to feel secure in the notion that they wouldn't.

we are reactive creatures, it's not as if our opinions and emotions form in a vacuum and the notion that we are solely responsible for what we think or how we feel tends to come off as a cheap rationalization created by some of us to absolve ourselves for the harms we sometimes do unto others.

It allows us to say "it doesn't matter how much i mistreat you, how you feel about that is YOUR resonsibilty and how dare you try to hold anyone else but yourself responsible"

this is the same logic that says that the person who gets hit by a stray bullet was "in the wrong place at the wrong time" as if the assholes with the guns were johnny-on-the-spot

i find it at least a little bit funny that a lot of the same people who will tout this concept will also go on about the_interconnectedness_of_all_things when the two seem like mutually exclusive concepts

but i guess causality doesn't allow us as many comfortable and convenient dodges
060629
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z bird: i don't disagree with you. i merely meant that the act of seeking is implicitly a self-definition of lacking. i also do not buy into that self-help notion. sometimes, i am cold because i can't get out of the snowstorm. 060629
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Lemon_Soda Shit happens, yes. Is it your fault? No. I'm talking about how you choose to take it. If someone is seconds from shooting you in the face, you can cry and beg for mercy, crack a joke and grin, or just go deadpan. It doesn't really matter what you do, your gonna die. But how you rise to meet that IS your decision. As I said before, we can train our thoughts, but I do agree with you bird that we are reactionary creatures. You can't decide what thoughts are going to pop into your head or the emotions that you feel, but you CAN decide what your going to do and how you act. I don't think I need to say this but I will anyway: How you feel and what pops into your head shouldn't rule how you act. I'm sure everyone can say they've had thoughts and feelings compelling them to act a certain way, but for whatever reason, chose restraint and controlled themselves(like hauling off and smacking someone or just walking out of a job). Lack of discipline, because "I didn't want to" or "I didn't feel like it", is exactly what causes most peoples misery. I'll tell you now, either way your going to pay a price. You get to choose to pay that price on your own i.e. put in the work, keep your mouth shut, and let go of alot of things you "want", OR you can pay it later with debilitating health, lack of self respect and confidence, and bills you'll never be able to pay off. Its gonna be tough, times will suck, and shit will still happen, but just because you "feel" trapped doesn't mean you are. As for your example, yes, some assholes might shoot a guy minding his own buisness walking down the street. I say that doesn't matter. There are plenty worse ways to die than a bullet to the brain, noone knows when they'll kick it, and its not like one can avoid death anyway. Its gonna happen. I'm talking choosing to do what it takes, no matter how much you "don't feel like it" to improve and enrich your own life before you arn't around to appreciate it anymore. That guy walking down the street died miserable, broke, and with a drug dependency because he "didn't feel like" putting up with his job and because he "felt good" when he did crack. Throw a dog a piece of toast with anti freeze on it and he'll eat because it tastes good, not because its good for him. The alternate theory is that guy walking down the street died perfectly happy even though he didn't like his job because his bills were payed and his good, clean living left him feeling refreshed in the morning ready to face the day. Now mind you, there is a breaking point, but I can promise you the higher you set it the better off you'll be.


"But Lemon_Soda, even though I read your words of wisdom, I still feel like shit, have tons of bills, and generally feel unfulfilled. Since thats how I feel even though I've read this, you must be full of crap. Nevermind that my life style since I became an independant has been the product of the decisions I made and that all the things I've done to be where I'm at have come from basing those decisions on how I feel at the time."


You know what, your right. Keep quiting your jobs because you don't like the hours or the manegers an ass. Throw back a couple more shots, cause boy it sure feels good to not have to think about your problems for a few hours. Keep sleeping around because your dick is hard and it feels good to stick it in someone and if your lucky you won't catch something deadly or genitally disfiguring.

But wait, I haven't addressed circumstances outside of your control. Can you "choose" who you were born too? Where your born? Under what circumstances? Under what influences? Ofcourse not. Just like you can't choose to not get shot by a stray bullet from some asshole. As children, the only thing we have to go on is how we feel and what our environment has taught us, yes...BUT WE'RE NOT CHILDREN ANYMORE! Put away your "instinct" program and take control of your life. Stop worrying and griping about whats wrong and put your energy into pursuing whats right.
060629
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crotchety old bird ah, how i miss the dogmatic certainties of my youth.

TESTIFY!

(ha, holy shit, i'm turning into Daf...)
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birdmad The first time i ever had a gun pointed in my face, i played fearless and got the shit beat out of me


The second time i ever had a gun pointed in my face i was annoyed but acted scared to placate the ego of the fuckhead who was pointing it at me

another time, i was genionely scared and mustered up all of the self control i could manage not to shit my pants

and the last time i ever had someone point a gun at me, i didn't see who it was from the shadows and knocked her out with an angry punch that i've been ashamed of ever since

choose your metaphors a little better, because i wonder if you've ever had the pleasure of looking_down_the_barrel_of_a_gun
060630
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Ptolemy DCLVIII Stare down the barrel of a gun, LS, and you will find that controlling one's thinking is surprisingly easy, but biology takes over and one sweats, trembles, and externally panics. It's like being in a car someone else is driving the wrong way on an interstate - think what you will, you ain't steerin'. Discipline becomes irrelevant, Marines aside. Actions and words spoken at the time scarcely testify to how the person internally experiences the event.

I am continually amazed at the ease with which others brush off the actions and even lives of others as being this or that. We don't know! You don't know. Only the person(s) experiencing the situation knows. "Things aren't always as they seem."

Sometimes situations are easy, sometimes they are difficult. Sometimes they are pleasurable, sometimes they are painful. Sometimes situations are our fault, and sometimes they are not. Sometimes these situations are deserved and at other times, unwarranted. Sometimes we can forge our own destinies and sometimes we are "fated" or "in the [right/wrong] place at the [right/wrong] time". Some people are products of their own decisions, and other people are products of the decisions (or indecisions) of others. Sometimes this, sometimes that. Life is too complex to run about making reckless generalizations as to what is enduringly true for you and you and you (although it sure is fun to generalize as such and I like to do so just as much as everyone else).

Thus, incessantly holding individuals accountable for their actions is as ridiculous as incessantly excusing bad behavior on grounds of nature and/or nurture. Both "will" and "fate" have a prominent place in what transpires in our lives. To be successful in life we must both "take" control and also "relinquish" it. "Go with the flow" is betrothed to "Stand up for yourself".

I think it is highly presumptuous of you, LS, to assert that people's miseries are largely a result of "not having wanted to" or "not having felt like" whatever. I concede that this is true at times. But not always, nor even usually. It varies on a case to case basis and the idea that you (or anyone) have made a comprehensive survey of all people leaves me incredulous. Additionally, even if someone's troubles are a result of bad decisions, it doesn't absolve us of compassion. Indeed, a lack of compassion is often as destructive as an excess thereof.

Nevertheless I do agree that we as individuals have tremendous ability to shape our lives and our perception, ergo our reality. Dream on!
060701
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z consensual reality is not a guiding principle or a functional daily philosophy. pop "philosophers", science fiction authors and self described "illuminati" (like carlos castanada) have co opted the idea and added the magical realism wish fulfillment elements to it's connotation. their vehicle tends to be fiction or quasi-religious tracts and teachings. the notion that we can control reality by perception is not part of the original intent of this idea. that each person's reality is different because of imperfect or faulty perception is not the same as each person controls their own reality. that notion is not supportable in formal logic. some of the above ideas belong in the area of self help or wish fulfillment, not consensual reality.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensual_reality
060701
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zeke also see my above post of 040312 060701
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yeah you guys blather is no place for tangents, after all 060701
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. . 060704
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LS Well, we've all got our take on it, i guess.


I admit the following:

1.That I've never stared down the barrel of a gun.

2.That each of you has a strong point and may have more wisdom than I, either before your years or after.

3.That no generalization by definition can be all encompassingly correct.

4.That I have thought and done foolish things before not realzing it, so this ,my current opinion, may fit "foolish" as well.

5.That, ironically enough, until I feel otherwise I will continue to feel what I feel.

6. And finally, I'm tired of not standing firm on something and I think this is worthy of it: Noone is at fault for their lives, but they CAN change their lives if they keep trying.

Thats where I'm at.


p.s. I feel this blathe is an excellent example of what blather should be, to me.
060704
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LS I just...don't want to lose my friends to what their doing to themselves...I'm screaming so hard inside...I haven't said anything to them because its not my place...I needed to get it out somewhere, so I chose here...but words are tricky, and what I wrote is getting twisted or refreshed or taken to literally...I don't know...I just thought if I put it down here someone might read it and it might help them...instead I'm feeling even more frustrated, like everyone is telling me all the REAL decisions I've made and stuck with over the past two years is pointless...I feel like for the first time in my life I'm doing the right thing, that it was my decisions that changed me, and everywhere I thought I was excepted and wanted for me is rejecting me for taking a stand...I guess I didn't really think about it before, but I consider all of you my friends, and just like my RW friends, its not my place to tell you those things.

I apologize for the disrespect.
060704
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misstree the once i had a gun pointed at me, i acted panicked enough that the person with the gun didn't feel they were in control of the situation, but not so much that they felt out. wasn't a conscious "i'm going to do this thought" process, but the same bits of brain that yank our hands back from fire. at the end of the interaction, i was about ready to start faking a molestation regression, again not because it was the correct logical conclusion, but because my deeper brainmeats said that would be what saved my skin.

i was in control of my actions, and whether it was conscious or not could be debated. the fact that my particular background lead me to the ability to play off the things that i did, well, that's a tool i spent some time developing in my years.

saying that someone should be blamed for being slow in a marathon because they only have one leg, well, duh. but whether or not they attempt it, whether or not they are willing to put forth the considerable extra effort, that's something lasting.

consensual reality isn't wish fulfillment, and imho isn't even a philosophy, but rather a component of one. it doesn't imply ability to change outside reality. it implies that the way that reality is percieved by each individual is different, and can be altered by that person. when i have a broken toe, i can either see it as a boon letting me out of work and giving me an interesting story or as a pain in the foot that knocks me out of commission. different viewpoints will coat my actions, leading me to take care of it or not, to resent it or enjoy it.

there is a difference between controllable and uncontrollable events. i can't stop a jet engine from smashing through my roof right now and killing me. but i do have a choice in every action i take, every view i allow, and with choice comes responsibility.

i'm babbling, but distilled in here is a point or two. i blame painkillerds. certainly isn't *my* fault i've babbled.
060704
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mollified bird exactly

we can only take responsibility for that which we generally had control of to start with and depending on what any of us knows or has learned is going to be a component of that
060705
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Christ without the cross Here is Christ with another repetitive (can't think of a word that would fit here) Give me a second...

Okay. here is Christ with another seemingly repetitive opinion concerning truth.

Lemon Soda. Be blessed. This is the best place for your words and don't lose heart. Don't stop believing but know that you are growing and evolving by choice and what is true today will change and may not be true tomorrow.

Okay back to my seemingly...nevermind. I will not repeat it. Let me just continue.

Truth is everchanging and always staying the same. There is truth in this contradiction. LS, you should apply your truth to your situation.

Truth differs from person to person and it exists in different ways in the world of the relative.

Now you have not had the experience of a gun being pointed in your face but I am sure that your truth has been proven very useful.

YOu said yourself that your reality was created by you. Your reality is exclusive to you and therefore does not need to be adopted by others to remain as purposeful as it has become.

Your truth is not absolute and does not need to be. It is relative to your experience and ulitmately to yourself.

Just like the image of God can be zillions of people expressing themselves differently, truth also is such. Now we, as a collective conciousness, have made certain things true. And this IS, as you said, neccessary for us to live in order.

Now, i do not want to get speechy or indulge myself with excessive ego combing by spouting all of my personal wisdom. Feel free to disect this and be skeptical.

But listen. What you know is nothing compared to what you will know and that is nothing compared to the fullness of truth. You have a piece. We all have pieces. but all our pieces combined would still be an eternity away from ultimate knowing.
061120
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LS wisdom 061121
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hsg if consensual_reality falls in the woods but no one hears it, does it....

wait, did you hear that?!
070103
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unhinged when both people involved deny it, i guess it doesn't exist

people only know if you tell them, and most people are too afraid to ask
070103
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(z) ( lies can create reality for those who are lied to. ) 070104
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They call me Truth i have been here before. 070724
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dafremen A group of blind men establishing a set of agreed upon anchors to which their fearful minds can cling in the hopes that by appearing to wrap their minds around that which they are incapable of understanding, they will convince themselves that they have mastered it and so alleviate their irrational fear of it.

See also: back_patting_your_way_to_a_more_suitable_reality
070725
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One who should know Roger Dafremen is always right. Roger Dafremen's illuminated understanding of everything is always true. Roger Dafremen is a lone voice of truth, a champion of enlightenment among us, the feeble minded huddle of cowering, delusional apes here at blather. Roger Dafremen has proclaimed that we are frightened, and it is so. Roger Dafremen is a bloated, self agrandising jerk. 070726
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De-Daftractor I rather liked what Dafreman wrote there, although I assumed myself (or anyone) to be one of the blind. Don't we all do this with regard to one thing or another? 070726
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REAListic optimIST such is language or even "consensual_reality"

there is either a group of fallible symbols which we utilize to represent reality, and which comprise the agree upon set of preexisting conditions and variables with which we will describe such a thing, or there is chaos and nothing.

math is probably the most infallible of the fallible symbol sets we use to communicate about such things, but unfortunately, it's still fallible.

so, I would say that Dafreman has the right of it, as does Lemon Soda, Birdmad, Ptolemy, and others who have used this page to try to express their personal realities, which we have consented to read.
070726
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dafremen Anyone IS the blind man, DOAR. Anonymous, nonymous, or otherwise.

(The great masters have long taught that much of what we speak...is us speaking to ourselves. And much of it is us acting out, or going through the motions of memories that have scarred us. I guess my question would be, to the anonymous backbiter..who from your past did this to you? And what aspect of my personality reminds you of them? Because you obviously disliked me from the moment you read my words. And any further words I wrote (whether present or past) have only fueled the fire of this very unhealthy venom that you are nurturing as though it were necessary. This is ususally where yer ego lashes out in order to "defend" you. It has become your champion. I wonder who teased you so badly when you were little that your intellect felt it had to grow into this Monstrous champion?)
070727
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Lemon_Soda You a psych major, daf? 070727
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:_( time to slit my wrists, what a lonely place. 070727
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De-De-Daftractor You seem as ego-bound as your detractor, Daf, and you must remember also that not all persons espouse philosophies renouncing the ego. Additionally, your veneration of "the great masters" is a personal one, and also not shared by all... not that this should stop you. Merely realize that where you see the ego overstepping itself, I see an ego which is underdeveloped and lacking in sufficient fortification.

Solipsism rears its unknowable head...
070727
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ANGRY yeah but Bunny is gay.
I just need a massage, whats his problem?

and NO i do not want "extra" you fucked up crap yoga teacher, i may be a white girl but i am NOT loose, it is SICK. you are a fucking slime ball.
070727
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your friend daf Belief has very little to do with reality, my anonymous friend. (Yes, certainly you must be my friend. Who else would help me find the areas I need to work on? Your random stabs in the dark are therapeutic...and necessary. Reactions to them..guide me to the soul splinters there..)

Now back to you.

Here's what's going on..let me summarize:

You need some sort of proof that you are real even though you consciously already think u believe that u are.

(t's rampant among us humans...including yours truly.)

So, like a child (we're all children in these analogies, including me...please get over it) standing on the edge of a mighty body of water..we throw pebbles to see the ripples. It amuses us, it occupies us, in many ways...it seems to validate us. We rationalize that noone reacts to NOTHING, therefore they must be reacting to SOMETHING...and since we (the child on the shore of the lake) believe we are the something that initiated the action..we deduce that we are real. For awhile anyway..it never really lasts long..the doubt continues to nag at us (subconsciously) for our entire lives. Of course it does. There is no you...there is no me. The separation is apparent but illusory.

So...when you lash out...I see you..in need.

And although I am as human as anyone..and so prone to outbursts, mistakes and absolute foolishness that I have to laugh at my own precociousness and stupidity probably TWICE as hard as at anyone else's..

But then I see your need and the laughter dies.

Someone once wrote that there is only...love and fear. You don't speak with love, detractor.

There it is..my anonymous friend...your ripple. A ripple on the surface...just for you. Be well.
070727
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dafremen Angry....awesome. 070727
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dafremen No Lemon Soda, I'm a high school drop out who chose not to attend college. (Stay in school kids. They need your body and occasionally your brain in the factories and labs. There's profit to be made and robots can't replace you in some areas yet. Get crackin on those books!)

They got enough time with my brain during the few years I was in the institionalized knowledge induction centers to properly fuck it up..nothing to worry about there. =)
070727
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daf -institionalized
+institutionalized
070727
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daf Re-reading the opening statement of this blathe...I'd also like to add that things which are tangible or in existence could give a flying twatbang on a rabid gorilla about what we agree upon.

They are tangible, and they exist whether we agree upon them, perceive them, could concieve of them or not.

But that's just ONE opinion. (If anyone can come up with a single reason why a bunch of people reaching a consensus would cause an existent thing to cease to be...I'm all ears. Likewise and flipside, if you can come up with a single example of a committee bringing a non-existant thing into being without actually producing it, but simply by agreeing that it is so...I'd love to see that evidence. Earth-centered universe anyone?)


Consensual reality is absolute foolishness. Better by far are 6 billion different ways of percieving it.
070727
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daf One truth...endless perspectives. 070727
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hsg ut 070727
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Lemon_Soda I dropped out of high school. Ended up a comercial Real Estate agent.


Just try to learn the helpful things, kids!!
070728
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kung fu i thought estates were real?
what? did you spend your life trying to sell a plastic wendy house or something?

once i saw the end of a rainbow and i'm not fucking joking, i know where the fucking gold is, i couldn't believe my eyes that day.
071211
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Lemon_Soda Okay then! 071211
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z most of what we know is second hand information. 091124
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- - 100425
what's it to you?
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