christian_nation Seeds of Light USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION! Always has been, Always will be! Your shouted, screaming lies are all silenced by the whispering truth! Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? The other three believed in the Bible as the divine truth, in the God of Scripture, in His personal intervention. Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of the Scripture for the people of this nation. Patrick Henry is still remembered for his words, "Give me liberty or give me death." But in current textbooks the context of these words are censored. Here is what he actually said: "An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not to the strong alone, is life so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death." These sentences have been erased from our textbooks. The following year, 1776, Henry wrote this: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded the freedom of worship here." Consider these words Thomas Jefferson wrote in the front of his well worn Bible: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator." Jefferson was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President John Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of government with the principles of Christianity." Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President, reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically in our country." In 1782 Congress voted this resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools." William Holmes McGuffey, author of the McGuffey Reader used in our public schools until 1963, said: "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our notions on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free institutions. From no other source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From these extracts from the Bible I make no apology." Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule No.1 was students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so they can study the Scriptures: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments." We ask God to bless America, especially as we remember the horrific tragedy of 9-11. But how can He bless a nation that has departed so far from Him? Prior to Sept. 11, God wasn't truly welcome in America, was He? Is He yet? Certainly that's arguable, with godless federal judges declaring the Ten Commandments inappropriate for public display after ruling our Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because it mentions God. It truly is a shame most of what you read in this message has been erased from public school textbooks by revisionists intend on removing the Truth about our nation's Christian roots. What is the Truth? Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life." Pass this along to others so the Truth of our nation's history will be told. Share this patriotic message with everyone you know so the Lord, who has faithfully and lovingly watched over our nation all these years, may touch hardened hearts and inspire closed minds to His Truth -- that America still is one nation under God! Make your stand for the Truth by signing a petition challenging today's Congress to reign in rogue judges so our Constitution again is interpreted in keeping with our forefathers' intent. Here's where to stand up for America's Godly heritage: http://www.ChristianPetitions.com want more? http://www.earstohear.net 041106 ... Seeds of Light Church_and_State 041106 ... unhinged ok ok ok the founding fathers were christian. yay for them. but they also had the foresight and acceptance to plan for the future in such a way that our government has not been able to do since. by the creation of the first amendment, they planned for a future in which the immigrants to this country might not only be christian, to make america a refuge for ALL people not just christians. don't cram your conservative christianity down my throat by way of government and lawmaking because it is unconstitutional regardless of the religious beliefs of the people that wrote, signed, and ratified the constitution. lawmaking that is just is supposed to be all-inclusive and objective. the personal beliefs of the people that founded this country first of all were beliefs in a simpler time and society and second of all they were all-inclusive and objective in their language and actions regardless of their personal beliefs. the founding fathers of this country were also white, rich, land-owners so by your same reasoning people could use the beliefs of the founding fathers to justify slavery and racism among other things which this country did for centuries. can you whole-heartedly quote thomas jefferson as a good christian when the man had slaves on his plantation and fathered children by them? the fact of the matter is you quote many people from CENTURIES ago when society was decidedly different and inherently UNEQUAL. this 'christian nation' you talk about would sink under the weight of modern society for a reason; it was inherently unchristian. examine the lives and actions of these men further and if you are truly objective about it, you should discover just how wretchedly unchristian they were. .......... no more use arguing with a fundamentalist 041106 ... Patrick Henry (1776) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded the freedom of worship here." 041106 ... George Washington "Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in the Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the opposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." "It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the Providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and to humbly implore His protection and favor." October 3, 1789 Proclaiming a National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving. In 1778 George Washington wrote a letter to Thomas Nelson, Jr. citing God’s divine intervention in the founding of our nation. "The hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are instruments of investigation in courts of justice? "And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." Farewell Address as published in the American Daily Advertiser on September 17, 1796. "The General is sorry to be informed that the foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing, a vice hitherto little known in our American Army is growing into fashion. He hopes that the officers will, by example as well as influence, endeavor to check it and that both they and the men will reflect that we can little hope of the blessing of Heaven on our army if we insult it by our impiety and folly. Added to this it is a vice so mean and low without any temptation that every man of sense and character detests and despises it." "If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the constitution framed by the Convention . . . might possibly endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical society, certainly I would never have placed my signature to it." "Direct my thoughts, words, and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate Blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit....Daily frame me more and more into the likeness of Thy Son Jesus Christ." From George Washington's private prayer book. 041106 ... Ben Franklin His message before the Constitutional Convention on Thursday, June 28, 1787 when parties were bitterly divided over how our Constitution should be constructed. At age 81, Franklin rose from his chair and said: "I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?" "We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that 'except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service." Jonathan Dayton, delegate from New Jersey, reported the reaction of Congress to Dr. Franklin's rebuke: "The Doctor sat down; and never did I behold a countenance at once so dignified as was that of Washington at the close of the address; nor were the members of the convention generally less affected. The words of the venerable Franklin fell upon our ears with a weight and authority, even greater than we may suppose an oracle to have had in a Roman senate!" Following the historical address it was enacted that prayer be used in Convention every morning, which it has ever since. Once assembled again on July 2, 1787, Dayton also recorded: "We assembled again and...every unfriendly feeling had been expelled, and a spirit of conciliation had been cultivated." "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." 041106 ... Samuel Adams "And if we now cast our eyes over the nations of the earth, we shall find that, instead of possessing the pure religion of the Gospel, they may be divided either into infidels, who deny the truth; or politicians who make religion a stalking horse for their ambition; or professors, who walk in the trammels of orthodoxy, and are more attentive to traditions and ordinances of men than to the oracles of truth." "We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." His essay, The Rights of the Colonists was widely circulated in 1772. In it he wrote, "The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty. The rights of the colonists as Christians may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament." 041106 ... Calvin Coolidge -- "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country. " "Equality, liberty, popular sovereignty, the rights of man - these are not elements which we can see and touch. They are ideals. They have their source and their roots in the religious convictions. They belong to the unseen world. Unless the faith of the American people in these religious convictions is to endure, the principles of our Declaration will perish. We can not continue to enjoy the result if we neglect and abandon the cause." July 5, 1926 "America seeks no earthly empire built on blood and force. No ambition, no temptation, lures her to thought of foreign dominions. The legions which she sends forth are armed, not with the sword, but with the cross. The higher state to which she seeks the allegiance of all mankind is not of human, but of divine origin. She cherishes no purpose save to merit the favor of Almighty God." We do not need more intellectual power, we need more moral power. We do not need more knowledge, we need more character. We do not need more government, we need more culture. We do not need more law, we need more religion. We do not need more of the things that are seen, we need more of the things that are unseen. If the foundation be firm, the foundation will stand. 041106 ... John Adams - The American Bible Society was started by an act of Congress and John Adams, our second president, served as its first leader. The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite...And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity..." In an 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson. "Statesmen...may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.... The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." "I am well aware of the toil and blood and treasure that it will cost to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the gloom I can see the rays of ravishing light and glory. I can see that the end is worth more than all the means...." "The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." "It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship." "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free." 041106 ... Under God John Quincy Adams - "The first and almost the only Book deserving of universal attention is the Bible. Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." "To the guidance of the legislative councils, to the assistance of the executive and subordinate departments, to the friendly cooperation of the respective State governments, to the candid and liberal support of the people so far as it may be deserved by honest industry and zeal, I shall look for whatever success may attend my public service; and knowing that "except the Lord keep the city the watchman waketh but in vain," with fervent supplications for His favor, to His overruling providence I commit with humble but fearless confidence my own fate and the future destinies of my country." "The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." "I speak as a man of the world to men of the world; and I say to you, 'Search the Scriptures!' The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life." "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration...they were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct." Alexander Hamilton - "The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the Divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power. Abraham Lincoln - "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man All the good from the Saviour of the world is communicated through this Book; but for the Book we could not know right from wrong, All the things desirable to man are contained in it." "We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to fell the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us." "We know that by His divine law, nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world...We have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown; but we have forgotten God." "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God, cannot long retain it." Woodrow Wilson - The Bible...is the one supreme source of revelation of the meaning of life, the nature of God and spiritual nature and needs of men. It is the only guide of life which really leads the spirit in the way of peace and salvation. America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture." "The history of liberty is a history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it." Woodrow Wilson, Speech in New York, Sept. 9, 1912 Andrew Jackson - "Go to the Scriptures... the joyful promises it contains will be a balsam to all your troubles." Daniel Webster - "If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our prosperity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity. Lastly, our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be trusted on any other foundation than religious principle, nor any government be secure which is not supported by moral habits." "Liberty exists in proportion to wholesome restraint." Thomas Jefferson- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." - "Yes, we did produce a near perfect Republic. But will they keep it, or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the surest way to destruction." "Reading, reflection and time have convinced me that the interests of society require the observation of those moral precepts ... in which all religions agree." "No power over the freedom of religion is delegated to the United States by the Constitution." "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations." The States can best govern our home concerns and the general government our foreign ones. I wish, therefore...never to see all offices transferred to Washington, where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold at market." "Yes, we did produce a near perfect Republic. But will they keep it, or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the surest way to destruction." "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. ... A wise and frugal government ... shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. ... Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated. ... Would it not be better to simplify the system of taxation rather than to spread it over such a variety of subjects and pass through so many new hands?" James Madison (Author of the Constitution - Do these quotes from James Madison sound like he intended Separation of Church and State the way the People For the American Way or the ACLU is deceiving us?) "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." No people ought to feel greater obligations to celebrate the goodness of the Great Disposer of Events and of the Destiny of Nations than the people of the United States. (In his proclamation of a National Day of Thanksgiving in 1815.) "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. Religion is the basis and foundation of government." John Jay, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court - "Let a general reformation of manners take place--let universal charity, public spirit, and private virtue be inculcated, encouraged, and practiced. Unite in preparing for a vigorous defense of your country, as if all depended on your own exertions. And when you have done all things, then rely upon the good Providence of Almighty God for success, in full confidence that without his blessings, all our efforts will inevitably fail." "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts." -- John Jay, letter to Peter Augustus Jay, April 9, 1784. Theodore Roosevelt - "Every thinking man, when he thinks, realizes that the teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life that it would be literally-I do not mean figuratively, but literally - impossible for us to figure what that loss would be if these teachings were removed. We would lose all the standards by which we now judge both public and private morals; all the standards towards which we, with more or less resolution, strive to raise ourselves." "In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at or ignored their religious needs, is a community on a rapid down-grade." "To educate a person in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." Grover Cleveland - "All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship." Woodrow Wilson - "America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture." "America was born a Christian nation." From his famous address: "The Bible and Progress," May 7. 1911, Denver, Colorado. U. S. Supreme Court, 1892 - "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian. Chief Justice Earl Warren - "I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses...I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it." Harry Truman - "The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul." William Henry Harrison, 9th President of the United States - "I deem the present occasion sufficiently important and solemn to justify me in expressing to my fellow-citizens a profound reverence for the Christian religion and a thorough conviction that sound morals, religious liberty, and a just sense of religious responsibility are essentially connected with all true and lasting happiness; and to that good Being who has blessed us by the gifts of civil and religious freedom, who watched over and prospered the labors of our fathers and has hitherto preserved to us institutions far exceeding in excellence those of any other people, let us unite in fervently commending every interest of our beloved country in all future time." Calvin Coolidge - "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country." Dwight D. Eisenhower - "Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism." John F. Kennedy - "The rights of man came not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God." - "There are risks and costs to a program of action. But they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of comfortable inaction. - In his inaugural address, Kennedy said, "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty." - "We in this country, in this generation, are by destiny rather than choice the watchman on the walls of world freedom. We ask therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of peace on earth, goodwill toward men. That must always be our goal. For as was written long ago, 'Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.'" --John F. Kennedy, a speech to have been given November 22, 1963 These words were written by President John F. Kennedy in a speech that was to be delivered in Dallas, Texas. Kennedy never delivered the speech, but his written thoughts remain. 041106 ... unhinged prayer does not make you a good christian; rhetoric does not make you a good christian; reading the bible and spreading the bible to me does not make you a good christian even though many christians believe that; forceful conversion in any manner is reprehensible to me. improve the quality of my life to convince me don't stand over me in tyranny demanding i believe what you believe. and while the founding fathers might have had the religious rights of all citizens in mind, or any other civil liberties afforded us by the founding fathers, the current administration definitely doesn't. once again, i would argue that centuries old statements made by dead old white guys have next to no validity in modern society in the context of the recent commandeering of many civil liberties by 'christians' except that we know history repeats itself and should be weary. 041106 ... unhinged i'll throw you the frickin bone that i know i am in the liberal minority when it comes to religion and it's place in the governing of our country, but that does nothing to lessen my disgust for jesus pushers that are limiting my pursuit of happiness in the name of their morals. 041106 ... Jerimiah 27:5 "By my great power I have made the earth and all its people and every animal. I can give these things of mine to anyone I choose." - God 041106 ... ??????? Thomas Jefferson was a Christian? Well then what about this: "Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Wait, let's repeat that last part and see if it squares with the modern fundamentalist Christian point of view: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Question with boldness even the existence of God. Okay, let's move on. Jefferson also said, "'The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error.' Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist." So basically, Jefferson acknowledged God as an abstract concept which represented morality which is nonetheless arrived at in a secular way, through reason. And look: "Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist." Was he an athiest? Not really. But sort of. What he wasn't was the fundamentalist Christian that you want to claim him as. You liar. Ok, more: "Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the 'outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man.'" So basically, he thought the Bible was a well-written expression of morality. And remember, morality doesn't need Jesus, and it didn't for Jefferson. And a little bit more: "In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, 'I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.'" I don't know about the others you referenced, but don't claim Thomas Jefferson as your own. http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html 041106 ... . Oh, and what about Abraham Lincoln, well known to be a Deist and often accused of being an athiest? He's considered one of our greatest presidents, and he wasn't a Christian at all. 041106 ... renew I am pround to be an American! Even moreso now that I know our roots! How come they don't teach our heritage in schools? 041106 ... Abraham Lincoln "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man All the good from the Saviour of the world is communicated through this Book; but for the Book we could not know right from wrong, All the things desirable to man are contained in it." "We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to fell the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us." "We know that by His divine law, nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world...We have grown in numbers, wealth, and power as no other nation has ever grown; but we have forgotten God." "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God, cannot long retain it." 041106 ... ? Assuming that all of the founding fathers were fundamentalist Christians (they weren't, but let's just assume), doesn't that make the historical oppression of women and minorities all the more egregious? Are you proud of slavery and Native American genocide, renew? If all our politicians were truly Christian, and Christianity imbues its true followers with the highest morality, why were so many of this nation's decisions so clearly immoral? 041106 ... ? LINCOLN WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN Lincoln was not a Christian, even though Christians have tried so very hard to claim him as such. I'm assuming they do this because Lincoln is almost universally considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest US president. Christians sometimes want to believe that no man can be great or moral (both of which Lincoln was) without religious, and in particular, Christian beliefs. Look: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm 041106 ... magicforest on behalf of my indignance, thank you question mark 041106 ... ??????? About Lincoln's religious beliefs, look: "There it was well known that Abraham Lincoln did not profess religion, though he occasionally accompanied Mrs. Lincoln to the First Presbyterian Church, of which she was a member. It was well known among his intimate friends that he was a Deist, after the manner of Thomas Paine, and that in early life he had written a pamphlet criticising the Bible and Orthodoxy. This, while yet in manuscript, was thrown in the fire by one of his friends, who feared it would injure him professionally and politically. In those days he was outspoken in his unbelief. Later he became more cautious." He became more cautious, because Christians can't believe that a man can be moral without believing in Jesus. People who are moral and not Christian know that both secular morality and religious immorality are possible and common, but sometimes they have to speak equivocally when talking to religous zealots. 041106 ... unhinged because the number of people that claim to be christian and the number of people that truly are are greatly disparaging...that's why of all the people that i know that are 'christian' because like most people who are republican their religion is also claimed as a birth right, i would say of all these people that check the box next to the word 'christian' when they fill out their census forms, only about 5% of them know truly what it means to be christian. and uuummm, by the way, half the bible is jewish just so you know. 041106 ... ??????? How about some more on Lincoln? In 1846, when he was a candidate for Congress against a Methodist minister, the Rev. Peter Cartwright, his opponent openly accused him of being an unbeliever, and Lincoln never denied it. A story is told of Mr. Cartwright's holding a revival meeting while the campaign was in progress, during which Lincoln stepped into one of his meetings. When Cartwright asked the audience, "Will all who want to go to heaven stand up?" all arose except Lincoln. When he asked, "Now, will all who want to go to hell stand up?" Lincoln still remained in his seat. Mr. Cartwright then said, "All have stood up for one place or the other except Mr. Lincoln, and we would like to know where he expects to go." Lincoln arose and quietly said, "I am going to Congress," and there he went. So stop trying to claim Lincoln as a Christian. Same with Jefferson. By scraping together some out-of-context quotations that appear vaguely religious, all you prove is that Lincoln and others sometimes made statements not explicitly inconsistent with Christian beliefs, or perhaps more accurately they didn't always make statements explicitly inconsistent with Christianity. 041106 ... unhinged oh and by the way, all the words you have been quoting here mean nothing when it comes down to it. since this has been a 'christian nation' politicians have been writing speeches with god and religion in them to swing votes from the christian majority...and secondly, politicians have been known to lie. actions speak louder than words. the actions of many of these supposedly christian presidents are only an example of the hypocrisy of most christians. they can quote the bible and they can tell me what i should be doing to save my soul, but other than sitting in church, they do nothing particularly christian. instead of just talking and blahblahblahing and reading me the bible DO something for fuck's sake. i'm so sick of this arguement it makes me want to vomit. and limiting my rights because you don't particularly agree with something that i do that hurts no one else is not a christian action. but it seems that shoving your beliefs, morals, and bible down my throat is. i concede this arguement for now. like i said before, arguing with fundamentalists gets you nowhere, because they are right and you are wrong. 041106 ... ? Once again, if you mistakenly think Lincoln was Christian, read this: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/steinlinc.htm 041106 ... ??????? You're exactly right, Unhinged. Religion was as much a campaign issue back then as it is now. Colonel Ward. H. Lamon, who was Lincoln's friend for years, was a religious man who disagreed with Lincoln's comparative lack of religiosity. He wrote of Lincoln, "His extremely general expressions of religious faith called forth by the grave exigencies of his public life, or indulged in on occasions of private condolence, have often been distorted out of relation to their real significance or meaning to suit the opinions or tickle the fancies of individuals or parties." In pertinent part, his statements about religion were "extremely general" and "called forth by the grave exigencies of his public life." Why were they general? Because the Chistian electorate doesn't want to believe in secular morality, and thus a non-Christian who wishes to gain votes from Christians must speak equivocally about religion and morality. 041106 ... ??????? Some quotes from Lamon's "Life of Abraham Lincoln." Remember, Lamon was a Christian who disagreed with Lincoln's religious beliefs, though the men were friends for years. "Mr. Lincoln was never a member of any Church, nor did he believe in the divinity of Christ, or the inspiration of the Scriptures in the sense understood by evangelical Christians." (p. 486.) ""When a boy, he showed no sign of that piety which his many biographers ascribe to his manhood. When he went to church at all, he went to mock, and came away to mimic." (pp. 486, 487.) ""When he came to New Salem, he consorted with Freethinkers, joined with them in deriding the gospel story of Jesus, read Volney and Paine, and then wrote a deliberate and labored essay, wherein he reached conclusions similar to theirs. The essay was burned, but he never regretted nor denied its composition. On the contrary, he made it the subject of free and frequent conversations with his friends at Springfield, and stated, with much particularity and precision, the origin, arguments, and objects of the work." (p. 487.) To claim that Lincoln was Chistian by selecting a few quotes published publicly or otherwise is to not just oversimplify, not just distort, but to lie, since anyone who pretends to be interested in the truth should at least exercise due dilligence in researching the most obvious evidence. 041106 ... ??????? One more thing from Lamon's "Life of Lincoln": "Lincoln went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I ever heard: he shocked me. I don't remember the exact line of his argument -- suppose it was against the inherent defects, so called, of the Bible, and on grounds of reason. Lincoln always denied that Jesus was the Christ of God, as understood and maintained by the Christian Church. The Rev. Dr. Smith, who wrote a letter, tried to convert Lincoln from Infidelity so late as 1858, and couldn't do it." (p. 488.) So there. 041106 ... sameolme Nazi Germany was a christian nation. Many of the good christian founders of America owned slaves. 041106 ... smurfus rex I think you're either making all this up or cutting and pasting from someone who did. Let us not forget that Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was only intended to free slaves in the states that were in rebellion to the Union... And another thing, about this "America was founded as a Christian nation"...who gives a fuck anymore? America is not a spiritual bastion of freedom anymore, if it ever was. The God of America is missing a letter...L. The God of America, ladies and gentleman is Gold, and the Son of Gold is Dollar, and if you don't believe me, explain to me why the nice and proper Christians go to church in their big soccer-mom SUVs ONE DAY A WEEK and fuck over their fellow man to get ahead on the other six days. If this was a Christian, God-fearing nation, it'd be a nation of servants and there wouldn't be any Fortune 500 list or the Forbes List of the Wealthiest People under God. The first would be the last and the last would be the first. That means Bill Gates and Oprah Winfrey would be feeding, clothing, and housing the homeless and indigent Americans ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE. Get off your fucking high-horse, conservative Christian family-values ass and live below your means. When's the last time you worked at a soup kitchen, bought a dozen blankets just to give away at a shelter, mentored a kid, gave blood, gave to charity, had a food drive, Christ, just fucking *helped* someone? Trade in your gashog H2/Suburban/Tahoe/Escalade/Expedition and get an Outback. Recycle your trash, conserve your water (ever hear of xeriscaping?), turn off your lights when you leave the room, and stop with TWO kids! We don't need anymore people here! Christianity this, Bible that, shut the fuck up! Don't quote me scripture or some dead statesman's letters! Tell me how you SERVED your fellow man today. What have you DONE for someone without expecting compensation? Would Jesus recognize you as a Christian during the week, or just on Sunday? A great man once said... "Don't sing it--BRING IT!" 041107 ... ??????? Just to clarify, notice that the quotes I cut and pasted clearly show that Lincoln was not a Christian. The other guy (Seeds of Light, I guess) attempted to prove that Lincoln was a Christian (and thus support his thesis, which is that every great American president was a fundamentalist Christian) by pasting about four Lincoln quotations. Those quotations are equivocal but vaguely religious. Taken alone, they COULD be the words of a Christian, but when examined in the context of Lincoln's life, they are words that advocate a general morality--one which Lincoln knew many Americans understood through the Bible. Not insignificantly, Lincoln also knew that many Christians wouldn't vote for a man if he didn't maintain at least the appearance of Christianity. So Lincoln was not Christian. I understand why a Christian might want to believe he was, though. If one clings to the idea that morality cannot exist without Christianity, the existence of a moral non-Christian is threatening. Of course, a desire to prove that all great men were Christian does not excuse spreading misinformation. I think you're either a poor researcher or a liar, Seeds. Which is it? 041107 ... ? Seeds_of_Light:- ... 041107 ... magicforest once I forgot how much I loved you, Smurfus Rex, but your passion makes me remember. So much passion at the blathe. So much futile anger. 041107 ... ??????? And about Ben Franklin: "Franklin would find it highly amusing that in recent years he has been portrayed by the political and religious Right as an orthodox Christian who helped lay the foundations of a Christian nation. The good doctor was certainly not anti-Christian, for he believed that the Christian religion inspired many Americans to be good citizens; moreover, their faith comforted them in times of crisis and gave them strength. On the other hand, Franklin believed that all other religions did the same for their adherents--Islam, Hinduism, and all the rest. Religion--any religion--was a good thing in his view, for it served a useful purpose. Franklin treated all religions alike, making him in all probability the first American champion of generic religion. ... "The one thing that is clear is that [Franklin's religious writings] clearly demonstrate that young Franklin did not fully endorse orthodox Christianity. He seldom mentioned Jesus Christ at all. On one occasion Franklin equated Christ with Socrates as a model to emulate, and on another he said that he did not know whether Christ was divine or not and indicated little desire to ponder the question. While allowing that Christ's moral teachings were the best the world had known, Franklin rather flippantly remarked to Ezra Stiles that he would soon know about the divinity of Christ without going to the trouble of giving it deep thought. ... "it seems clear that Franklin can best be described as a Deist, though with personally tailored modifications of the Deist creed. He not only tolerated all other religions but encouraged them, because he believed that all religions had utilitarian value. "In his later life, when Franklin served in France as American minister, he proposed a union between his grandson Temple and the daughter of his friends Monsieur and Madame Brillon. As much as the Brillons adored Franklin, they were not about to give their daughter to his dissolute grandson, but to spare the elder Franklin's feelings, they used Temple's Protestantism as the excuse for their firm "no." They would never allow their daughter Cunegonde to marry outside the Catholic faith, they told him. Franklin responded that all religions were essentially the same, comparing religion to sugar that might come wrapped in paper of various colors and tied with strings of different materials; inside the wrapping was the sugar, and that was what was important." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2082/is_4_62/ai_64910236 041107 ... Tostada al Sadr And even then, because they had come from a country where religion was used to justify the power of the ruling house in Buckingham Palace and because many had come to escape the sort of religious persecution that such circumstances routinely create, they made sure that "...The Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of Religion..." and it was through this portion of Amendment I that Jefferson and Adams succesfully prevented Patrick Henry from creating a federal Clergy. I seem to recall that many of the "Orthodox Christians" (what, were they all from Greece?) were, among other things, Unitarians and Quakers, and considering some of the various political stunts that some of the more rabidly evangelical types in this past election cycle tried to p pull against a number of Unitarian churches (Attempting to have one congregation declared a cult, attempting to have another stripped of its tax exempt status even though it was less politically active than the congregation of the "minister" who brought the complaint against them - classic bit of 'speck vs log' there, i tell ya. It would be fine if all of the so-called "Christians" who like to proclaim America a "Christian Nation" actually lived up to the example of CHrist instead of a bunch of pwer mad Zealots who have traditionally been a little TOO FUCKING HANDY WITH THE FIRST GODDAMNED STONE for anyone who isn't equally zealously deranged to handle. thank you very much. 041107 ... smurfus rex this is why I love blather. :) 041107 ... Jeca one thing is pretty clear about the foundation of this country, Seeds of Light: our very constitution-- the very foundations of this country-- are against "silencing" other people's points of view. even if you believe what you are silencing people with is right with all your heart and soul. 041107 ... Lila Pause Steely-eyed robotic soldiers with gritted teeth, reading and waiting for the command of the master; ready to set right the moral bankruptcy of the times. Their doctrine is the answer to everything that's wrong with the world today (after all- it was the seperation of church and state that brought about "moral decline" in the first place) They are working to re-establish this connection again. Neither reason, logic or truth will ever dissuade them from insisting that you, I, and everyone else MUST have jesus christ in their lives... Onward christian soldiers. 041107 ... Seeds of Light I am not silencing "People", Jeca, I was merely silencing their lies. 050106 ... hmm if someone's merely misguided is it a lie? 050106 ... . the misguided (or perhaps liars, depending on their intentions) are those who would claim that Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, etc. were fundamentalist Christians. 050107 ... - - 060606 ... . Your just afraid to really trust in anything without tangible proof, wich also intones poor longterm relationship skills. I"m not signing this because you need to really look at what was typed, not who typed it. 060607 ... Roaul Duke all i have to say is that i dont know a single christian that lives their life how a christian should, and just because they go to church every sunday doesnt make them a good person. I know many non-christians including myself that are better people, and they dont blame everything that happens in their life on god, or satan. they accept things as they are(i know that has nothing to do with anything but it pisses me off) 060608 ... Emptyness Alive napoleon wasnt a christian 060608 ... Roaul Duke ignore my previous blathe here, i was way too wasted to really make any sense, or convey my message properly. 060613 ... through i do agree with you, though roaul duke, as a christian myself. i think the most hipocritacal group of people are christians. 060613 ... pro hac vice "Your just afraid to really trust in anything without tangible proof, wich also intones poor longterm relationship skills." bullshit, kid. why would a person be "afraid" to believe in god for fear of his nonexistence? if i believe in god and then die, but god doesn't exist, what happens to me? nothing, that's what. what's to fear? it's not like i'm going to arrive at the pearly gates ready to party with god and he'll have stood me up. there just wouldn't be any afterlife at all. also, the poor long-term relationship skills dig is weak and petty. way to represent your christ, dipshit. 060614 what's it to you? who go blather from