answer_for_astrology_skeptics Dafremen Recently, one of those open mouth insert foot types made an interesting point. What makes me and people LIKE me think that there are only twelve types of people on the Earth? Doesn't the fact that some folks born on the same day of the month are VERY different disprove this notion? Indeed it does, and I would never argue that there ARE only 12 types of people. In fact, according to the rules governing astrological personality impression, it will take almost 2 and a half million years before a SINGLE person will be born with personality traits that are identical to anyone else born before them. The ONLY exception to this are people born on the same day, of the same month of the same year within 4 seconds of one another. These are known as astral twins or time twins, and both astrologers AND empirical scientists doing studies on the subject have found STARTLING similarities in the lives and characteristics of time twins. They marry at the same time, die at the same time, have practically all of the same likes and dislikes, name their kids the same, etc. The idea behind Sun sign characteristics (ie insights_into_aries, etc) is that the PROBABILITIES are that your Sun sign characteristics will tend to be dominant in your personality. If however you have Moon imprinted or other imprinted characteristics which counter your natural Sun sign tendencies, it CAN cause the Sun Sign description to fall short of accurate. Only an accurately drawn up Birth Chart can do this for you. I have just recently begun looking into this in order to draw my conclusions and I must say, the results have been REMARKABLY accurate. Given your day, month and year of birth...along with your time of birth and city of birth, a picture of your personality WILL emerge which is INCREDIBLY accurate in its details about your innermost motivations. It is obvious that any "logic minded" person who knocks astrology has NOT looked into it. They speak wherefrom they do not know and do not want to know. In fact, they sound a lot like a certain software engineer(ME)did before he bought a book in a box of psychology books for a buck, some two years ago. I WAS the consumate astrology skeptic. I sounded just like the closeminded critics who I now defend astrology against. If you don't REALLY look into it, (like I did, conducting 157 interviews over a 6 month period online and in person), you will NEVER believe the truth. You will continue to push it aside as "for entertainment purposes only." It has been said that EVERY open-minded, curious individual who has investigated astrology has become enthralled by the science. I'm happy to say that I have been added to those ranks. Any person who believes that forces which can lift the world's mighty oceans will NOT affect the forming of their personality, the seat of which is a PHYSICAL brain, is deluding themselves in the name of nothing but vanity and ignorance. Nuff said. Anyone with a SERIOUS interest in the subject is invited to visit Professor Seward's Sun sign information website at: zodiac.fragzaintskillz.com As an amateur, I would also be happy to draw up a birth chart for anyone with a GENUINE interest who sends me the information which I mentioned above. This is time consuming, not because of the chart that needs to be drawn up, (that takes 5 minutes) but because of the descriptions that must be typed in. If I recognize you, you'll prolly get it more quickly. If I don't you may have to wait. If you lie about your birth time information, you will get the results you asked for. If you are truthful about them, I am quite certain that you will be amazed. You have my email address. 021020 ... freakizh oh! oh! i wanna have one of those (i have one already though, but a gift by daffy would be nice). do you have time for me? :) see what i wrote you at pictures_of_blatherites 021020 ... ????????????? "EVERY open-minded, curious individual who has investigated astrology has become enthralled by the science." Well I guess if you define "openmindedness" as the willingness to believe pseudoscientific bullshit without skepticism, then certainly, you'd be correct. But otherwise, it's the same heads-I-win-tails-you-lose tactic used by anyone who is dogmatically espousing their RELIGION. If you don't accept the religion's beliefs, then you weren't "openminded" enough, or you weren't in the state of mind necessary for proper enlightenment. Blah blah blah. Admit it, Astrology is your religion. You talk about openmindedness, but you've already made up your mind, and you'd probably never be willing to accept that Astrology is bullshit, regardless of the evidence. "Time twins", eh? Sounds like something that you'd hear on the Art Bell radio show, which is a showcase for quacks who can "scientifically" prove all sorts of crackpot theories, from ghosts to ESP to bigfoot. But personally, I believe in bigfoot--and don't tell me that you DON'T believe in him until you've thoroughly searched every forest on this planet and found him absent. And read "Making Sense of Astrology". It has been said that, upon completion of this book, readers whose heads aren't too far up their asses will be unable to believe in Astrology. 021020 ... hey now! in dafs defense (which i never thought id be saying), the anonymous question mark person is the one who seems narrow-minded to me. but thats just my humble opinion. 021020 ... ????????????? I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in the Zodiac, but to say that you're close-minded if you DON'T believe in it--that's stupid and hypocritical. 021021 ... hey now! eh 021021 ... Dafremen Indeed it is. You are the only one that has said that here. (although you do it in an attempt to paraphrase ME.) Openminded means going into research WITHOUT the intent of disproving or proving something. It means going into research with the intention of finding the TRUTH, regardless of your own personal beliefs, feelings or biases. THAT is my position and I stand by my statements. There is nothing superstitious about the idea that a person's personality development being affected by forces which influence much larger bits of matter than our tiny brains. In fact, to DISREGARD those influences, upon MUCH reflection, seems in and of itself the most foolish and self-centered of the two notions. Doesn't it seem curious that with the rise of Christianity and the persecution of witches and heretics, interest in astrology fell? In fact, the skeptics of today are the heirs to years of brainwashing and anti-astrology propaganda that has been going on since well before the Age of Enlightenment. Further blows were dealt to astrology's "credibility" by the discovery of new planets in the late 1700's, 1800's and in the early part of this century. This skepticism has continued to be fueled by three things mainly: 1. The mainstream media's use of Sun sign horoscopes (which only take one part of a VERY complex combination of factors into account)as entertainment. Human beings are complex, not only must external forces be taken into account (astrological and locally environmental factors) but genetics also plays a part. Only a fool would deny that these things ALSO play a factor in establishing a person's personality. Look though you might, you will not find that fool here. An @sshole, perhaps, a long-winded boring nihilist, some would say yes, but a fool no. 2. The unwillingness of many less-competent but popular mainstream astrologers to take chances in their daily columns. In order to maintain their popularity, they rely on vague statements and generalities, to appeal to a larger audience. "Better correct and vague(thus vaguely correct to more people)than insightful and wrong" is their motto. This is a shame. 3. The stress given to predictive astrology (the attempt to predict coming events) over humanistic atrology (assisting people in understanding themselves and the people around them.) I feel that humanistic astrology is astrology's strong suit, and that if we are ever to overcome the centuries of anti-astrology brainwashing that has been going on, we must stick with those things that any reasonably well read amateur can present correctly. From everything that I have observed up to this point, predicitve astrology is iffy, and only successfully pulled of by VERY accomplished, very intuitive and well-learned astrologers. It's like having a guy who flies model airplanes take the Yoke of a commercial airliner. Not only that, predictive astrology cannot be empirically demonstrated, IMMEDIATELY. Humanistic astrology can, and for those of us with a logical mindset, HAS been, again and again. Even Sun sign-only personality profiles (such as the insights series, are more than likely to present a compelling picture, enough, perhaps to get most people to dig into the subject more.) It is a fascinating science, one that was capable of convincing even a hard-to-crack skeptic like me. (Hell it took 157 interviews to convince me that there was something to this stuff. To have gone on to 1000 would have only proven my desire to overlook and disprove what my research indicated. IT would have proven my lack of objectivity.) Here are the places that got me started: The Zodiac and Its Mysteries by A.F. Seward (not available in print except as an antique, but online at a website which I have created, typing in each chapter EXACTLY as it appeared in the book. The URL can be found above.) Linda Goodman's Love Signs Linda Goodman's Sun Signs The Only Astrology Book You'll Ever Need (Which up to this point, I've only found useful for technical information and chart calculation information. Her sun sign information is nowhere NEAR as insightful as Ms. Goodman's or Professor Seward's.) You are free to look into astrology in-depth and judge for yourself. You can do so with an open mind or a closed mind, and only you will know if you have made the right call in the end. IN either even, if you just sit on your hands criticizing, you have earned only the right to wallow in ignorance, like the superstitious, pseudo-scientists that you seem to hold in such contempt. Let's face it, unfounded skepticism based on NOTHING, is pseudoscience. That is your curent position, that of a pseudo-scientist. You are skeptical for it's own sake and THAT is a shame. P.S. Enlightenment is such a charged word. It seems obvious that you chose it for it's connection to spirituality and religion. Astrology claims NO religious affiliation. Different astrologers will mix their own personal idealogies into their interpretations. This is NOT astrology. Astrology is the science which they mix IN with those personal ideologies to make them more convincing. My personal ideology, as you are probably well aware, is that we are made of matter, will go back into the ground and become something else, like a tree or a plant, or maybe just dirt. I do not believe in a spirit, I do not believe in ghosts or aliens. Since astrology, I have refused to say that I KNOW those things do not exist, I just have reserved judgement until more facts are known for or against those subjects. Pyramid and crystal power do not impress me, nor does numerology. Then again, I haven't looked into these things as of yet. I believe in the foundations of empirical science, of logic and of mathematics. IT is upon these foundations that I have built my OWN belief system, having started with the notion that everything is made of matter and energy and that nothing can be created or destroyed. For more of my beliefs, you're welcome to read a letter which I wrote on the DAFFY blathe. IF any of these things sound like the irrational thinking of a fuzzy mind, then your definition of fuzzy mindedness is very broad and covers many of our world's GREATEST empirical thinkers as well. Mudmen burn people for witchcraft without investigating the possibility that witchcraft may or may not TRULY exist first. You have set yourself up as that mudman in at LEAST this discussion. If you ARE the rational thinker, that it appears you would like people to think you are, you would be well advised to look into the facts carefully and meticulously before you take such a stand. Yes freakizh, I would be glad to. Don't expect anything fancy, I'm still figuring this stuff out and trying to find what works and what doesn't. : ) 021021 ... ????????????? I don't think one has to extensively research every form of quackery to disbelieve it. You probably don't believe in phrenology, but how deeply have you researched it? How about dowsing? What about various types of augury? What about the Bible Code? Alchemy? Telepathy? There are so many pseudo-sciences that to research them all to determine their fallacy would be an obscene waste of time. 021021 ... ??????????????fan don't worry, little one. the smart people recognize and appreciate the clarity, the logic of your argument. you just can't reason with the dumb ones...it will make your head explode, eventually. 021022 ... hey now!s narcissistic brain calling people you dont know "dumb"... ha! i bet im smarter than youuuuuu areeeee! ;) 021022 ... amys "answer" i'm trying to think real, real hard. is this a yes or no question? 021022 ... krimilda dafreman: i'd also like to have one of those charts... i love your insights into all the signs and i'm a gemini, not as skeptical as i could be... should i email you? 021022 ... Dafremen Please